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Old 2011-10-26, 08:04   Link #5021
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamP View Post
Spoiler:


...Seriously, Zenkichi is not a good character. Being bored of the "overall perfect being" does not make Zenkichi anymore original than he already isn't. Plus, this manga is filled with a lot of unique and very original characters, so... Those characters being ones I especially enjoy. <3

Also still loving the arc, despite Zenkichi annoying me. Want to see how Unzen and Hitomi involve themselves in it.


"Medaka's better". I stopped reading there. Seriously, Zen represents me and anyone who refuses to spend his/her life being a Mary Sue with no emotions and no feelings and with 0 effort doing tasks.

Last edited by K. Shiruto; 2011-10-26 at 08:25.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:04   Link #5022
[HearT]
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Originally Posted by Adan View Post


"Medaka's better". I stopped reading there. Seriously, Zen represents me and anyone who refuses to spend his/her life being a Mary Sue with no emotions and no feelings and with 0 effort doing tasks.
"Butt-ugly baby"....I have nothing else to say about that XD

We all know you like Zenkichi and we all know that other people hate Zenkichi, and we all know that this forum for the past 20 pages have been a war on whether 'Zenkichi is god' or not, lol in a way it's kinda funny, in another way it's rather annoying lol XD I personally like all of the characters and hate them all at the same time, i'm impartial that way.

...And the creepy baby made me forget what I was actually going to say...so I will now end with a pointless post that will probably get flamed at. ^^;
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:21   Link #5023
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Sorry, I don't see Nisio being that shallow like some people...
Yeah you're right, Nisio actually likes Medaka instead of hating her because he feels emasculated when reading a story with a strong female lead.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:35   Link #5024
sungreentakeo
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I'm surprised there are so many super-defensive Madaka fans. Exaggerating what people say (i.e. 'Zenkichi is a God', blah blah blah)... Ignoring what everyone else is saying, which has more to do with the nature of the conflict than favoring one character over the other, and what the mangaka is showing and expositing. Tireless in their defense of what is supposed to be an intentional parody of perfection, literally the underlying conflict of the manga introduced from the first chapter. Ignoring the salient points of anyone who disagrees with them. Essentially demeaning another character because it is convenient for their agenda. It's even more confusing because the general consensus I've seen in polls is that most people support Zenkichi over Madaka by a roughly 20 to 1 ratio. It's like I'm stepped into some political spin zone defense when we're supposed to be discussing the merits of a story. You can't even have a discussion like that.

God, ok, you win, whatever. We don't mean anything we're saying and you can safely ignore it.
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:37   Link #5025
Johnny
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Yeah you're right, Nisio actually likes Medaka instead of hating her because he feels emasculated when reading a story with a strong female lead.
That's a pretty hilarious response, 1984 wants it back. Then again it's actually quite sad you think that...

I don't think I've seen anyone saying they outright hate Medaka, only some of her actions at times. I could be wrong since I don't read every post...
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:40   Link #5026
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Adan View Post
"Medaka's better". I stopped reading there. Seriously, Zen represents me and anyone who refuses to spend his/her life being a Mary Sue with no emotions and no feelings and with 0 effort doing tasks.
lol, that doesn't even make any sense man. How exactly do you "refuse to be a Mary Sue". The fact that you're approaching natural ability as a matter of moral judgement is almost humorously irrational.
__________________
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Old 2011-10-26, 11:53   Link #5027
MD84
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, that doesn't even make any sense man. How exactly do you "refuse to be a Mary Sue". The fact that you're approaching natural ability as a matter of moral judgement is almost humorously irrational.
It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.
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Old 2011-10-26, 12:05   Link #5028
sungreentakeo
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Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.
What I find interesting about that is did she cry for Zenkichi or cry because he was a platform for the ideas she liked? Why did she cry? Ajimu has proven with her scenario that Zenkichi does not have any inherent value or bond value to Medaka, instead Zenkichi's value to her was dependent on some factor external to himself (his ideas) which meant he was a means to an end for her.

When we see her express emotion, we like to interpret it through convention, but Medaka is abnormal. She's not only abnormal; she's the abnormal of abnormals. She's on an even more abnormal level. If it hadn't been for the early influence of Zenkichi, she would have only been recognizable as a nightmare to normal people. She's way different from us, and in many ways she can't come to a common understanding with us. Just because we see her have an emotion doesn't mean what is behind that emotion would be what we normally attribute to that emotion.
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Old 2011-10-26, 12:53   Link #5029
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
I'm surprised there are so many super-defensive Madaka fans. Exaggerating what people say (i.e. 'Zenkichi is a God', blah blah blah)... Ignoring what everyone else is saying, which has more to do with the nature of the conflict than favoring one character over the other, and what the mangaka is showing and expositing. Tireless in their defense of what is supposed to be an intentional parody of perfection, literally the underlying conflict of the manga introduced from the first chapter. Ignoring the salient points of anyone who disagrees with them. Essentially demeaning another character because it is convenient for their agenda. It's even more confusing because the general consensus I've seen in polls is that most people support Zenkichi over Madaka by a roughly 20 to 1 ratio. It's like I'm stepped into some political spin zone defense when we're supposed to be discussing the merits of a story. You can't even have a discussion like that.

God, ok, you win, whatever. We don't mean anything we're saying and you can safely ignore it.
Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively. The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2. More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character. If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy. Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to the readers to empathise with an alienated or broken personality. In fact, probably the majority of Nishio Ishin's characters can be seen or described as broken like this, and "normal" characters like Zenkichi are in fact the exception (and practically never the protagonist). Until you can wrap your head around the idea that accordingly Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
It's probably the "no emotions and no feelings" part that is most bothersome to some people. That at least is a matter of moral judgement. I don't really believe that Medaka is supposed to be seen as a totally emotionless sociopath -- she did cry for Zenkichi a couple times -- but these last few chapters do hammer home the fact that Medaka is Abnormal with a capital A.
It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
What I find interesting about that is did she cry for Zenkichi or cry because he was a platform for the ideas she liked? Why did she cry? Ajimu has proven with her scenario that Zenkichi does not have any inherent value or bond value to Medaka, instead Zenkichi's value to her was dependent on some factor external to himself (his ideas) which meant he was a means to an end for her.

When we see her express emotion, we like to interpret it through convention, but Medaka is abnormal. She's not only abnormal; she's the abnormal of abnormals. She's on an even more abnormal level. If it hadn't been for the early influence of Zenkichi, she would have only been recognizable as a nightmare to normal people. She's way different from us, and in many ways she can't come to a common understanding with us. Just because we see her have an emotion doesn't mean what is behind that emotion would be what we normally attribute to that emotion.
Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.

Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is as such his own fault because he allowed their relationship to coast along on that exclusivity. Because becoming accepted by other people was Medaka's goal, it was inevitable that Zenkichi could not always be the one and only person around her. It's not too late, however, for Zenkichi and Medaka to create a real bond. After seeing his behaviour after the Treasure Hunt, Medaka has discarded all of her previous assumptions about Zenkichi's closeness to her and what his ideas have done for her, erasing the last of his previous value. However, if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with Medaka now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (because that is still what she is looking for). In fact, Medaka's desire for a real bond with Zenkichi is the real meaning behind her encouragement of him taking a stand as a person opposing her and her willingness to see him grow.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-10-26 at 13:08.
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Old 2011-10-26, 12:59   Link #5030
summers
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Originally Posted by [HearT] View Post
Holy Crap!! I don't touch this thread for a couple of weeks and it spreads like wild fire!!!!! just a few months ago there was like 6 posts in a week!!! XD lol
Spoiler for @spoil:
What the Author did was pretty tricky.
This manga started out with a character driven school life manga and they had contest challenges.
Then it became a battle manga, but the catch was that the superpowers were based of personality traits making the characters development and plot super important. Now it has gone back to the start. The clock test was a contest challenge with some skirmishes mixed in.
Now all we have been talking about is analyzing Zen and medaka and others characters,motivations, etc.
Not, who is stronger, who beats who,who will fight who. If people want to do that they have to talk about plot and characters.

This author is a boss. He got to write the manga he wanted after all.
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Old 2011-10-26, 13:06   Link #5031
K. Shiruto
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This author is a boss. He got to write the manga he wanted after all.
Of course brother, he's fucking NisioIsin
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Old 2011-10-26, 13:16   Link #5032
MD84
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively. The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2. More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character. If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy. Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to empathise with an intensely alienated or broken personality. Until you can wrap your head around the idea that Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.



It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.



Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.

Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is his own fault because he coasted along on that exclusivity of their relationship and never bothered to create a real bond. It's not too late, however, because if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with her now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (and in fact, this is the meaning behind Medaka's encouragement of Zen to stand against her and desire for his growth).
The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?

Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.

Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.

Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.

Last edited by MD84; 2011-10-26 at 13:32.
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:23   Link #5033
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?

Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.

Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.

Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.
Wait, that's not a shonen convention. Defeat friends yes, love interests no. It's rare for a main character to have a serious battle with his/her love interest before they properly get together. They may not but be on the same side intially or even really like each other but they rarely if ever seriousy confront each other.

Only real times where they confront each other is long after their relationship is established and generally it's due to bralin washing or the villain physically forcing them, and on a rare occasion to protect someone else e.g blackmail.
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:57   Link #5034
sungreentakeo
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Dude, when you haven't even got a grasp yet of the motivations and conceptual position of Ajimu at this late point in the narrative, don't go around making authoritative statements about the "underlying conflict" or "parody of perfection" of the story like they can be taken as remotely absolute or objectively.
Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!

As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The places with those "general polls" are probably some real cesspools of braindead discussion on the internet. For a more realistic reflection of reality, if you did not know this, be aware that in the popularity polls in Jump (i.e. polls reflecting the opinions of Medaka's actual target audience and native readers) Medaka has always been more popular than Zenkichi, by a factor of about 3:2.
Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.

I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.

You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
More importantly, like Westlo has stated, it should also be obvious that Nishio himself will like his own main character.
I like writing and I love dungeon-mastering too. You know who my favorite characters are? The villains. The flawed people. The interestingly odd people. The people I would even normally have issues with. Of course he loves his creation; it's a beautiful idea. But that doesn't mean he approves of her or there is some dichotomy like that, entirely the opposite! It's a message within a discourse!

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you are unfamiliar with the name Nishio Ishin, let me inform you now that he's an accomplished author whose works, aside from featuring an entertaining and highly developed consciousness of modern youth and popular culture, also regularly deal with notions of "genius" and complicated perspectives of apathetic sociopathy.
Bakemonogatari was like candy to me. Ever since, I will not forget that man's name. I just say mangaka because it means I can communicate with people who don't know who the author of this manga is.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka Box is hardly the first or only work of Nishio's where his protagonist is an intellectual or philosophical challenge to the readers to empathise with an alienated or broken personality. In fact, probably the majority of Nishio Ishin's characters can be seen or described as broken like this, and "normal" characters like Zenkichi are in fact the exception (and practically never the protagonist). Until you can wrap your head around the idea that accordingly Medaka is supposed to be understood as human, not a parody, then you are correct, it really will be difficult to engage with you here in any sort of meaningful discussion.
On this, I'm starting to think that there is a bit of a communication problem going on here. I have never said that I didn't approve of Medaka as a character in this story. I have said over and over why she was wrong in this instance, and what she was dismissing. I have talked about this interesting parts of the event and what we're supposed to pull out of this. It's a parody because it's done in a satirical matter. Medaka does things that are over the top and then you have to pull out what weird subtle thing is missing here or rather what she is missing. Her exaggerated actions scream parody all over the place.

Someone who loves everyone, who actually loves no one specifically.
Someone who always believes in herself and believes in others, yet walks all over other people.
Someone who is always right, but who pushes her position on others.
Someone who believes that she is always wrong, but who has never been wrong.
Someone who believes nothing is impossible for anyone, but in reality that only applies to herself.
Someone who never needs or expects any loyalty, so she can never appreciate the value of loyalty or caring towards.
Someone who values everyone equally, so that being her friend or ally means nothing.

A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but messes them up or takes them too far in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's not the recent portrayal of Medaka, really. It's the recent focus on Zen. From pretty much the start of the manga actually it has been clear just how abnormal Medaka really is--which is really not all that more than the vast majority of this manga's other characters. Medaka's abnormality is the same in effect as all the other abnormals' abnormalities, as a factor which separates her from other humans and makes it difficult to live a real life or form real relationships. Really, all of these Zen fans have never liked Medaka from the very beginning--they're simply pouring out of the woodworks now that Zenkichi is getting some real development in the story. Medaka's behaviour and personality itself, would still completely standard for her if someone were trying to work out her characterization from the very beginning.
They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!

On a side note, I had been tempted to say something about all these 'Medaka fans pouring out of the woodworks' earlier in my response, but I thought that would be far too marginalizing and insulting. I see that you had no such restraint.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka used to like Zen, so she cried because she cared for him. Zenkichi's "inherent value" to Medaka, aside from the ideas he gave her, was the fact that he used to be her only "friend" (at least, insofar as he was the only one who was willing to generally hang around with her). As the number of people surrounding Medaka increased, naturally this part of Zen's value would vanish. Medaka no longer has to merely look for people who will hang around with her at all--now, she has met enough people that she can afford caring about her real bonds and relationships.
Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different to give and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.

Zenkichi is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. That's the vast majority of their lives. They're only 15! That's 13 out of 15 years! It's hard to display time like that and its significance in the medium of a manga, but that's really really significant. He's always loved and supported her. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. That's lacking the context of their history. And, that's the point.

There just something so fundamentally wrong in what she did and her attitude that I shouldn't even have to explain it.

And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until she didn't need him anymore. His life was not better or easier because he was around her, much the opposite.

I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out. Nishio, through the children with flowers on the first page of 118, and the battered Zenkichi immediately on the next page pointed this out. Nishio through Munakata, describing how Zenkichi was different to the rest of Medaka's entourage, pointed this out.

Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.

As for bonds, I've mentioned this earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer. But at the same time, that would require huge character changes in Medaka and I have no idea what the fallout from that would be.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Simply put, the difference between Medaka's feelings then and her feelings now is in the fact that Zenkichi is no longer the only person hanging around her. She cared about Zenkichi then, because if he died it'd have meant she'd be alone. Zenkichi's lack of value to her now is as such his own fault because he allowed their relationship to coast along on that exclusivity. Because becoming accepted by other people was Medaka's goal, it was inevitable that Zenkichi could not always be the one and only person around her. It's not too late, however, for Zenkichi and Medaka to create a real bond. After seeing his behaviour after the Treasure Hunt, Medaka has discarded all of her previous assumptions about Zenkichi's closeness to her and what his ideas have done for her, erasing the last of his previous value. However, if Zenkichi gives his all to creating a real bond with Medaka now, there's no reason for Medaka not to respond (because that is still what she is looking for). In fact, Medaka's desire for a real bond with Zenkichi is the real meaning behind her encouragement of him taking a stand as a person opposing her and her willingness to see him grow.
Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.

The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka, the time that he's shared with her and how he genuinely cares for other people even sometimes over himself.... Those qualities did not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.

She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.

Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost what make him unique in comparison to all the other 'special' people; Essentially, he'd just lost one of the cornerstones of his world.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something to still define him.

Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. She wasn't thinking about him. She was thinking about his value to her, when he needed someone to understand him. It was Ajimu that came to his rescue in her own strange way when Medaka tossed him in the wastebasket.

Medaka's family is not special to her. Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.

Medaka and Zenkichi have never understood each other. My pet theory is that they attribute something in themselves to the other person, which actually isn't the same thing at all. Zenkichi says early on that Medaka loves all of humanity like her family. Later Zenkichi says that he always supports his friends. Zenkichi equates Medaka's ideal to the loyalty and caring he has, but Medaka has no such loyalty to anyone. Everyone is equal. No one is special. Friends and enemies are alike. Even her family isn't special to her. Medaka has no bonds. In the same way, Medaka equates Zenkichi's caring with Medaka's ideals. And these two things are not the same thing whatsoever.

And then they say ironically that they both understand each other the best when they don't understand each other at all.

Even though they can often look the same, caring does not equal ideals. In fact, they may very well be polar opposites. They come from different worlds; they speak different languages. In many cases, I'm sure Zenkichi would support his friends even if they were wrong, but Medaka has no loyalty to anyone, just to her ideal of 'people'. Medaka would betray her friends as quickly as she'd support her enemies. Zenkichi would factor in his relationships to his friends.

About Medaka wanting to form a genuine bond with Zenkichi, I can't say at this point. I don't think she even considers it a possibility, really. Her behaviors seem to suggest indifference to him being unique (different) in any way, which is a cornerstone of one of the ideals that she talks about. To her, it would be impossible for him, much less anybody else, to become 'unique' or 'special' to her. In fact, it might be appropriate to say that she denies the possible existence of such a thing.

Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2011-10-26 at 17:37.
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Old 2011-10-26, 15:00   Link #5035
MD84
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Wait, that's not a shonen convention. Defeat friends yes, love interests no. It's rare for a main character to have a serious battle with his/her love interest before they properly get together. They may not but be on the same side intially or even really like each other but they rarely if ever seriousy confront each other.

Only real times where they confront each other is long after their relationship is established and generally it's due to bralin washing or the villain physically forcing them, and on a rare occasion to protect someone else e.g blackmail.
Whoops. Yeah, that's more of a western comics thing, ala Batman and Catwoman.
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Old 2011-10-26, 15:49   Link #5036
ACE2001
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Man...I haven't seen so many spoiler tags in one thread in my life! Lol! Sucks that I have to wait to comment on chpt. 120. I think its good that Ajimu and Zen are somewhat combining forces to take Medaka down. I'm just tired of her flawless personality and her perfectionist of I can do anything attitude. For me at least, its a little annoying. I want to see Medaka get seriously challenged this time around and...gasp, LOSE!!! Lol!

Throughout 120 chapters of the manga, there hasn't been one instance were it was thought like, damn, Medaka is in trouble here. It's just boring to me as I already know that she'll pull through with her crazy a$$ abilities and what not. I'm really looking forward to see her get physically and mentally beat down.
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Old 2011-10-26, 16:42   Link #5037
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by ACE2001 View Post
Man...I haven't seen so many spoiler tags in one thread in my life! Lol! Sucks that I have to wait to comment on chpt. 120. I think its good that Ajimu and Zen are somewhat combining forces to take Medaka down. I'm just tired of her flawless personality and her perfectionist of I can do anything attitude. For me at least, its a little annoying. I want to see Medaka get seriously challenged this time around and...gasp, LOSE!!! Lol!

Throughout 120 chapters of the manga, there hasn't been one instance were it was thought like, damn, Medaka is in trouble here. It's just boring to me as I already know that she'll pull through with her crazy a$$ abilities and what not. I'm really looking forward to see her get physically and mentally beat down.
Ah ah ah don't worry you're not the only who feel that way. I really hope she will be beat by Zen !
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Old 2011-10-26, 17:42   Link #5038
Endscape
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!

As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.
Yes, Medaka is exceptionally perfect or whatever, the point of that, as has been stated so many times, is that that perfection of hers make it hard for her to interact with people, because they're all either afraid of her, or worshipping her like a god. No one is arguing about Medaka being perfect or whatever, what's annoying is when people believe that because she's like that, everything must be Medaka's fault.



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Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.
It's funny, people are all up in arms about Medaka being wrong, yet people ignore the fact that Zen is much more wrong in this instance than she is. Putting aside their fight, in which I think they're both equally wrong but that's another matter, Zen is consciously working with the Flask Plan, the same Flask Plan that was planning to use the student body as lab rats, and was perfectly OK with their experiment killing most of the students. What's really interesting about Zen fans is that they don't care about that.

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I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.
We already got behind that shell, what's behind that shell as Unzen says, is just a plain lonely girl. Personally, what I hope to see out of this arc is more about that side of her.

Quote:
You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.
What's annoying about the comments from hardcore Zen fans is that they seem to want to push all the issues with Zen and Medaka's relationship onto Medaka,as if it's all her fault. She has some of the blame but Zen has to shoulder an equal amount of blame. Yet Zen fans feel that everything is all Medaka's fault, most Medaka fans realize Medaka's faults which is something I can't say most Zen fans realize about Zen.




Quote:
A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but messes them up or takes them too far in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.
See, now this is interesting here. It's a difference of opinion. You believe that Medaka is a sociopath that can't forms bonds with people. But a bond with someone is a two way street. I believe that she's a lonely girl who no one tried to form a bond with, especially Zenkichi, who by his own admission, never tried.



Quote:
They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!
I wish I had your faith in people. Personally, in my experience, these people hated her from the beginning of the manga, the same ones that were constantly around the place bitching when they thought the manga would get cancelled, but hey, people are entitled to their beliefs.

Quote:
On a side note, I had been tempted to say something about all these 'Medaka fans pouring out of the woodworks' earlier in my response, but I thought that would be far too marginalizing and insulting. I see that you had no such restraint.
So you thought it would be marginalizing and insulting to mention, so you say you're not going to mention it. How passive-aggressive.


Quote:
Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different to give and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.
Now see, I can only wonder how you can think like that, I'm just thankful that I don't think like you.

It's exactly because she's different that she needs friends, more than a normal person does. It's the tragedy of her life that she's doesn't have any. Nobody is too strong for friends, everybody needs someone else, regardless of strength

Quote:
Zenkichi is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. That's the vast majority of their lives. They're only 15! That's 13 out of 15 years! It's hard to display time like that and its significance in the medium of a manga, but that's really really significant. He's always loved and supported her. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. That's lacking the context of their history. And, that's the point.

There just something so fundamentally wrong in what she did and her attitude that I shouldn't even have to explain it.
Let's flip the scrip, shall we? Zenkichi has known Medaka for 13 years,and he says that he's her friend and that he cares about her, yet by his own admission, he never once even attempted to try to understand her. Zenkichi is supposed to be normal, what kind of normal person hangs around with someone for all that time yet never tries to understand her and then claims he cares about her. What does he care about then? If it wasn't obvious that Zen does care about her, I'd seriously wonder about that, as it is, I just think he has some serious self-esteem issues.

There's something so fundamentally wrong with that, I shouldn't have to explain.


Quote:
And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until she didn't need him anymore. His life was not better or easier because he was around her, much the opposite.
Now that's plain silly. She didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be.

Quote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out.
Nisio, through Kikajima pointed out how warped Zen's perspective of Medaka was, when she asked him about Medaka not knowing about amusement parks, he said she has no need to know about them. Nisio, through Zen's own mother, pointed out how messed up their relationship is.

Quote:
Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.
Medaka fans aren't ignoring that, we're well aware. What Zenkichi fans are ignoring is that fact that Zenkichi isn't perfect, or a completely innocent victim of cruel, cruel Medaka. In a very real way, Medaka is Zenkichi's victim just as much as he is hers.

Quote:
As for bonds, I've mentioned this earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer.
Medaka has no bonds because no one has made any with her, certainly not Zenkichi. I'm quite sure she can have bonds just like everyone else. What I hpe is that Zenkichi actually creates one.




Quote:
Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.
Again, you're pulling this out of somewhere. Everyone is needy to some extent, everyone needs someone in some way. Part of Medaka's character is that she's alone surrounded by people because people want nothing to do with

Quote:
The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka, the time that he's shared with her and how he genuinely cares for other people even sometimes over himself.... Those do not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.
I don't deny that Medaka valued Zen as a part of some ideal, but so does Zen, he cares about her, but not about the real her, which he, again I'll reiterate by his own admission, never tried to understand. What he cares about must be about what she is, not who she is. Who she is, has nothing to do with him. He's more interested in being her pitbull than her friend.

Quote:
She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.
Now that's plain garbage, unfortunately it's garbage I've seen all over the place. She didn't just hit from behind instantly like that, she very nicely told him that the event was over and it was time to go, and he responded by slandering somebody, after which point she hit him on the back of the head and told him to clean up. As a certain man once said 'A slap to the face is an insult, a slap to the back of the head is a wake up call' That's all it was, a wake up call after what he said, which quite frankly he deserved.

Quote:
Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost what make him unique in comparison to all the other 'special' people; Essentially, he'd just lost one of the cornerstones of his world.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something to still define him.
Rubbish. He was trying to prove he was better than everybody else. He was trying to be special, not normal. A normal person would have tried to work together, which is what everyone else did, but apparently that was too demeaning for him.

Quote:
Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. She wasn't thinking about him. She was thinking about his value to her, when he did actually need someone to understand him. It was Ajimu that came to the rescue in her own strange way when Medaka tossed him in the wastebasket.
And what was Zenkichi thinking about then, pray tell? He was thinking about proving how he was better than everybody else, and then when that didn't work, he was thinking about blaming other people for his problems. Medaka may have made a mistake there, but so did he. But of course, in the minds of Zen fans, the great Hitoyoshi can do no wrong.

Quote:
Medaka's family is not special to her
We don't know about Medaka's dad, but she does care about her sister, in fact she asked her sister to be her comrade, something everyone was surprised about because it's not her style. She still hangs about her brother, despite him being a degenerate, most people would disown.

Quote:
Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.
She doesn't have any friends. No one has ever tried to be her friend, certainly not Zen. In fact, the rest of the student council are probably closer to her than him. What clashes with my humanity is someone being around someone for 13 years and yet not once trying to understand them, despite being normal.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2011-10-26 at 19:32.
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Old 2011-10-26, 18:22   Link #5039
yuzen003
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Medaka fans aren't ignoring that, we're well aware. What Zenkichi fans are ignoring is that fact that Zenkichi isn't perfect, or a completely innocent victim of cruel, cruel Medaka. In a very real way, Medaka is Zenkichi's victim just as much as he is hers.
This statement interests me, please elaborate how Medaka is Zen's victim? Based on the material that has been presented he has been dragged into whatever activities she wanted to do, so I suppose him not forcing her to do normal activities might be making her a victim but that seeems to be a stretch. If that is the case the most he could be considered guilty of is inaction by not prompting her to live a normal life instead of the abnormal one she pursued under her own initiative. How exactly has Zen abused Medaka?
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Old 2011-10-26, 18:36   Link #5040
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You guys sure love to write huge walls of text xD (In a positive sense of course)

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
We already got behind that shell, what's behind that shell as Unzen says, is just a plain lonely girl. Personally, what I hope to see out of this arc is more about that side of her.
Agreed. It's ironic that Unzen was the first person to figure this much from her in such a short fight and not someone close to her. It'll be interesting to go deeper into that side of her and especially if it has any connection to the "killed father" card that Najimi mentioned.
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