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Old 2011-10-26, 18:50   Link #5041
Soji
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The problem with Zen and it seems ,many have not realized this, is still like he was at age of 2.
Obviously, I do not say in the literally sense, but in character and personality, and remained as it was (maybe a bit more seriously).
I mean, many in the manga have referred to thisthing and one of those that mentioned this was medaka itself.
It seems that Najimi in addition to complete what she wants with the Flank plan ,she want also make Zen to do the growth / change that he has not done so far in these 13 years.
And after I realised this,I wonder how much Zen will change after the flank plan and how much his feelings will change accordingly on this.
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Old 2011-10-26, 18:58   Link #5042
telamont
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I'm curious... why is everyone taking Ajimu's words as absolute gospel? Damn, but she's good (when a manga character can brainwash even the readers... )

Let's look at it another way shall we? I think the problem is everyone is applying real world standards to a shonen manga. Sure, beating someone bloody is a bad thing in the real world, but remember that this is a shonen manga, where you can get beaten bloody and be perfectly fine an hour later, and the entire cast practically knows they're in a shonen manga at this point.

And in a shonen manga:

Defeat = Friendship.
Beating each other bloody = "Bonding"/Speaking through fists.
Coming at an opponent with everything you have = Sign of respect.

So in that light, when faced with Zenkichi's declaration, Medaka was just being consistent with her "shonen main character taken up to eleven" portrayal and paid Zenkichi the highest possible respect. What more do you guys want?

The clock tower incident can also be seen in the same manner. After Zenkichi freaked out, Medaka hit him and looked at him coldly. Why? Because she was disappointed. Why was she disappointed? Because she had high expectations of him in the first place. And before you start saying that she had no right to be so patronizing, that's pretty much a given considering how Zenkichi always treats her more like a goddess than a friend and equal.

So yea, everything Ajimu said could be true. Or it could simply be the case that Zenkichi's problem is not that he isn't "special" to Medaka. His problem is that he's chasing after a girl far and away beyond his league, can't quite keep up, suffers from a "mild" inferiority complex (which really hinders his progress btw), and is now having his insecurities played with by Ajimu. So far, we've only had Ajimu's word, and Kikaijima's take on the entire situation. There could be many other explanations. What I just wrote is probably only one out of many possible examples. So let's wait until we actually get to see Medaka's thoughts, or until the conclusion before passing judgement shall we?

Last edited by telamont; 2011-10-26 at 19:58.
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Old 2011-10-26, 19:33   Link #5043
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
The Zen fans are pouring out of the woodwork because Medaka beat him to a bloody pulp, echoing Kumagawa's actions when he was the main villain (Akune even pointed it out). All speculation on motivations aside, that was clearly meant to be seen as something horrible, if Kikaijima's reaction is anything to go by. Medaka may have honestly done it for his own good, but does that really excuse giving him a beatdown and telling him he sucked?
Kikaijima's (immediate) reaction was one character's reaction out of a group of maybe 10. I'm not sure why you're taking a reflection of Kikaijima's perspective and character as an indicator of objectivity beyond everybody else's.

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Zenkichi's value to Medaka was that he was a "Normal" person who wanted to hang out with her without owing her anything. The funny thing is, he still is the only "Normal" person who wants to hang out with her -- the five girls that devalued him are only there because Ajimu sent them in the first place.
This isn't true, because if you remember Medaka does not believe in people being "special" or "abnormal" in the first place. The value Medaka placed in Zenkichi was in being accepted by any other person at all, which is why it was not the arrival of the Not Equals that started Medaka's devaluing process of Zenkichi's friendship, but rather the beginning of Medaka's encounters with other 'people' (abnormals) who were on her level.

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Zenkichi never bothered to create a real bond because he thought he and Medaka already had one. It's an understandable mistake -- he was two when their pseudo-relationship started and she never gave him a reason to doubt their bond until chapter 115. The problem is on both ends -- she's a messed up Abnormal who only has an identity based on a messiah complex that a two-year old unwittingly imparted on her, and he in many ways is still that two-year old boy with a hopeless irrational crush.
No, Zenkichi never bothered to create a bond with Medaka because he never even saw her as really human, believing in that "paragon" image of her loving everybody so that his only personal worry was being "strong/worthy" enough to stand beside her. Zenkichi has finally realized that the "help everybody" mission he gave her is complete bullshit--what he doesn't know is that Medaka herself has also long moved past that naive perspective, as is fully demonstrated in the dialogue/exchanges Medaka has had with Ajimu.

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Thing is, Zenkichi and Medaka both want a real bond. It's just that both realize that the only relationship Medaka recognizes as real is the kind between worthy adversaries. Medaka even told Kikaijima that she should have made Zenkichi her enemy from the start. It's the shonen convention of "defeated foes becoming friends and love interests", taken to an extreme like so many other shonen conventions in Medaka Box.
This is a false projection. First, Medaka didn't say anything about "from the start" when she told Kikaijima that she preferred Zen as an enemy. Second, for Medaka, fighting and confronting other people is part of a process of understanding. What is important to Medaka is not the fighting and conflict, but the understanding itself. This is the nature of Medaka's abnormality, "perfect observation". It is also through fighting that Medaka can show her own struggle and allow her enemies to see the effort that she puts into her existence--i.e., a way for others to come to understand her. While they may still be adversaries, Medaka actually rarely fights with the same person more than once. This is because once they've come to understand each other, there is little need for further conflict, and what remains is a friendly mutual relationship of self-determination and respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Medaka is supposed to be exaggerated perfection, or perhaps the exaggerated perfectionist. I can't even see how you can argue against this. Zenkichi had an issue with this perfectionism and talked on it within the first chapter. We are supposed to realize this. That's why he talked about it. He suggested that there was a very subtle issue, a problem with Medaka... And that problem keeps subtly coming up just like it has in recent chapters. This is supposed to be in contrast to the shining radiance of what she does right.

The manga then went on to show how she's awesome and unbeatable while entertaining the shounen jump demographic which is looking for larger than life heroes.

Now comes the really interesting part, at least the part I'm hoping for.. The deconstruction!
The notion of Medaka's "perfection" has already been deconstructed at least three times over. You can't be serious in suggesting that you came away from each of the major conflicts previously only thinking "oh, Medaka is even more perfect and Mary-Sueish than she was previously". Medaka is a dynamic character, she has developed significantly over the course of this series. Your reduction of nearly the entire manga thus far into the throwaway escapades of a "larger than life" hero, meanwhile basing your entire negative interpretation off a couple lines from the first chapter, is frankly ridiculous.

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As for Ajimu, yeah, I have no idea what she's up to. Quite frankly, it's going to be awesome.

Actually she's ranked even higher than that sometimes if I recall. That is not the issue of this current conflict. The issue is whether or not she did something wrong HERE. The issue is, "Does this shock us and change our perception of her? Does this enlighten us more to her true nature?" Did she do something wrong? Most people recognize that she did, because she did something almost spuriously heartless. And that's really interesting.
lol, "most people". No, that is, again, only the Zenkichi fans who've been resenting Medaka for nearly the entirety of this manga's duration. The only people who've been "shocked" or "enlightened" are the ones who haven't been paying attention.

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I'm waiting in anticipatory glee for her to come back and do something nearly as perception shattering as killing someone because like she would have with Unzen if the council hadn't stopped her. I want that drama; I want that conflict. It would be beautiful, thrilling and entertaining. I want to get past this outer shell of the 'perfect heroine' and get into the meat of what is really going on here.
If you recognize Medaka's "perfect" image was challenged exactly as early as the Unzen battle, and that she was nevertheless still portrayed and received sympathetically, where exactly does your expectation for a "deconstruction" come from?

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You keep on coloring people as if they care about the same things they do. The reason why the majority of people are against Medaka in this is because of what happened, not because she beat up on their favorite character. That's why I'm tired of even having to read posts by hardcore Medaka fans. I'm looking for interesting things. A partially sociopathic Medaka who attempts to be good but is simply lacking the humanity is actually far more INTERESTING. I actually find her more interesting when she's wrong, because she's supposed to be always right! Every time someone starts a discussion on this topic, some Medaka-fan comes out and starts complaining that their favorite godlike character is being criticized. That is not interesting, just annoying.

And the braindead comment you made about Zen fans? Please.... That's why the Medaka-fans are turning me off so much.
There aren't too many people who're really Medaka fans, they're simply fans of the manga, period. They've been enjoying the manga up to now for being entertaining and intelligently written. The most popular character is generally Kumagawa. My favourite character in fact used to be Unzen. This thread has a long history of overblown Zen fans running off on delusions and bashing other characters based on premature speculation and spoilers. Your desire to read about and condemn an irredeemable sociopath is more degenerate than actually supported by the manga or relatable. I'm sorry, but if that's what you consider worthwhile "discussion" or "entertainment", you sure are welcome to get your jollies elsewhere.

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I like writing and I love dungeon-mastering too. You know who my favorite characters are? The villains. The flawed people. The interestingly odd people. The people I would even normally have issues with. Of course he loves his creation; it's a beautiful idea. But that doesn't mean he approves of her or there is some dichotomy like that, entirely the opposite! It's a message within a discourse!
You are making an equally large presumption in calling Medaka a parody. I'll explain to you here what the conceptual opposition between Medaka and Ajimu is, then. Ajimu pursues equality, the equality of all humans. The Flask Plan is meant to erase all differences in ability in humans such that the necessity for effort and skill in acquiring favoured outcomes becomes irrelevant. Ajimu's is a perspective which acknowledges the arbitrary tyranny of differences in natural ability.

Medaka is someone whose existence most blatantly demonstrates the tyranny which Ajimu is fighting against. Medaka is arbitrary perfection/victory in the absolute. So Ajimu's immediate objective is to artificially empower a human beyond the wall of Medaka's victory. Her ultimate intention is the impossibility of raising every human to that same uniform level.

Medaka's perspective, in contrast, is one that flatly denies the existence of such absolute differences in ability. Despite being the singular embodiment of perfect victory, Medaka's own impossible objective is to prove that all humans are already equal. Beyond the delusion Medaka asserted to the Chairman when she was first invited into the Flask Plan, Medaka's position has evolved into an awareness of her own ability, but a belief nonetheless in the idea that effort and cooperation will allow a person to surpass any obstacle. Ultimately, Medaka's determination towards this idea reflects not any distanced philosophical belief, but a personal will arising from the experience and understanding she accumulated through her lifelong pursuit of relating with others.

It says something that as their arcs unfolded I've become a fan of each of Medaka's "enemies", and remain so even after the fact. That is indeed the high level of discourse at which Medaka Box's narrative at its best operates. However, it is precisely this fact which makes the idea of Medaka herself being a "parody" ridiculous. She has withstood numerous deconstructions, each one more correct and compelling than the last. A character which can stand even with such substantial and compelling personalities as Unzen Myouri, Kumogawa Misogi, Ajimu Najimi can only certainly also be worth something genuinely substantial herself.

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On this, I'm starting to think that there is a bit of a communication problem going on here. I have never said that I didn't approve of Medaka as a character in this story. I have said over and over why she was wrong in this instance, and what she was dismissing. I have talked about this interesting parts of the event and what we're supposed to pull out of this. It's a parody because it's done in a satirical matter. Medaka does things that are over the top and then you have to pull out what weird subtle thing is missing here or rather what she is missing. Her exaggerated actions scream parody all over the place.
lol. Your blatantly subjective identification with Zen and moral condemnation of Medaka sure don't scream out "parody". There sure is a paradoxical element to Medaka tendency towards impersonal brutality, but that's what makes it so entertaining and satisfying that Medaka is actually right. Is it a parody that Medaka beat up Zen? Hell yeah! That's the reason why I'm laughing while it's the people who insist that Medaka was "wrong" who are not.

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Someone who loves everyone, who actually loves no one specifically.
Someone who always believes in herself and believes in others, yet walks all over other people.
Someone who is always right, but who pushes her position on others.
Someone who believes that she is always wrong, but who has never been wrong.
Someone who believes nothing is impossible for anyone, but that ideal only applies to herself.
Someone who never needs or expects any loyalty, so she can never appreciate the value of loyalty.
Someone who values everyone equally, so that being her friend or ally means nothing.

A person who strongly believes in the very best ideals, but misses them in subtle ways because at some level she really is someone who can't form bonds with other people, at least partially a sociopath due to either her inability to have a genuine common ground with other people or because of something genuinely lacking (or perhaps having too much of something else) in herself.

This is glorious. This is ingenious. This is interesting.
Sure. But you're not even talking about Medaka's ideals in half your examples. The fact that Medaka's positive and self-deterministic ideals go so far against her reality is indeed what makes her interesting, but what you've apparently missed is that it is Medaka's situation that makes her inconsistent with her ideals. Medaka is completely consistent with her ideals to the extent that she expresses and actually acts on them. It is because Medaka believes that she is not special, and that everyone is her equal, that she is never hides or takes pity or goes easy or make exceptions for anybody as she pursues what she believes is right.

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They're pouring out the woodworks as you say, mostly because of what just happened. Many people changed their opinions out of empathy. They formed a rapport with Zen (which the male readers are intended to do) and just as much as they were cheering on his relationship with Medaka, they felt the betrayal at him being mistreated and thrown away like trash. If you're looking to a comparison to Bakemonogatari, fans would have acted the same way if Senjougahara had treated Araragi in the same way. That event was intended to evoke those emotions!
And Kikaijima's conversation with Medaka was intended to reveal Medaka's real motivations. Your rage at Zenkichi's "mistreatment" is completely pointless when it was actually an expression of Medaka's appreciation and support. Your reactions can hardly even be called a "rapport" with Zen because they are hardly even in sync with Zenkichi's real feelings. That is less empathy than it is projection.

Quote:
Medaka doesn't have any friends. She can't have any friends. She's just simply too different from anyone to have and receive genuineness from anyone. Honestly, regardless of what Unzen said about her being lonely, she doesn't need any. She's never needed anyone. She's too strong for that. She's the epitome of strong. She's not just physically strong; she's mentally strong; she's emotionally strong. She doesn't have that 'neediness'.

Zen is not like everybody else. He helped her in the most significant way that anybody has ever been able to help her. He's spent the majority of 13 years with her. He's always loved and supported her. Maybe she didn't need that, but she also actively went to great efforts to make him stay around. Then she's like, well, he's not that great anymore because he's having a crisis and I have other people now.. So, uh, yeah trash him. That's heartless. That's lacking loyalty or persistence. That's lacking acknowledge for what he's done and what his intentions have been. And, that's the point.

And there's another issue. She's never really helped him. He doesn't have a debt to her. We could argue that he helped her, but not the other way around. He has been, as Munakata called it, her sacrifice. She kept him around, and did her best to make him stay around, until he didn't need him anymore.

I feel like I'm trying to explain the basics here of human relationships. I shouldn't have to point this out. Nishio, through Kikajima, pointed this out. Nishio, through the children with flowers on the first page of 118, and the battered Zenkichi pointed this out. Nishio through Munakata, describing how Zenkichi was different to the council, pointed this out.

Medaka fans are ignoring this. This is not subtle or ambiguous. This is being yelled in our faces.
No, not really. Medaka beat Zen up and pushed him to stand firm on his path after he decided he'd man up and stop making himself a sacrifice. That's Medaka tossing everything in their past away, yes. That's her doing it after she realized it was useless, and learned that Zenkichi himself knew it was useless too. The opener to chapter 118 said it: "Instead of a peaceful yesterday, towards a correct tomorrow". That goes for Medaka and Zenkichi both. The persistent butthurtedness of "some" readers over the outcome of their past relationship is what's truly missing the point.

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As for bonds, I've mentioned earlier. Medaka has no bonds. She's never had any bonds. She cannot have any bonds. Where I'm hoping Nishio goes with this is for Zenkichi to actually create a genuine bond with her by becoming her peer.
Zenkichi will never become Medaka's permanent peer as far as real ability. Both Medaka and Ajimu's dreams are destined to fail; the persistent truth in this reality will be that some people are better than others. What anybody will need to form a real relationship with Medaka will be to come to genuinely believe in her ideal, that's all. And that's not impossible at all, because as you've pointed out earlier, Medaka has some of the very best ideals that there are out there.

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Medaka didn't care if she was alone or not. She's not that needy. She doesn't need people. In a very real way, part of her dramatic quality is that she's still alone even surrounded by people.

The value Medaka used to see in Zenkichi is more abnormal. It had more to do with how he was an example of some ideal. The things that actually make him more unique, such as his love and loyalty towards Medaka and the time that he's shared with her.... Those do not enter into her evaluation. She doesn't even understand them. That's something we've attributed to her via our interpretations of her actions that were never really there.

She didn't even want to help him when he was mentally weak. She was just annoyed. That's pretty heartless. She didn't hit him from behind that first time because she was trying to reform him. She just did that because she wanted to and she didn't feel hesitant about hurting him.

Zenkichi during that time was dealing with a personal crisis, set off by the parasite eyes. He was trying to prove to himself that he could overcome something with effort, with 'normalness', when he'd just lost his specialness and he'd just lost the cornerstone of his character.... His reliance on effort and being normal. If he failed, he used to have something that still define him.

Which brings something out that may give more insight into Medaka's character, Zenkichi at that time was acting emotionally weak. Also, he didn't know everything that was going on. He was focused on his own internal emotional struggle. At that time, a friend would have tried to support him, especially a friend who had practically been handfasted to him for 13 years. Medaka is abnormal, and furthermore she didn't understand what was going on with him.

Medaka's family is not special to her. Medaka's friends are not special to her. Her loyal friend who should be closer to her than family and she should be indebted to is not special to her. There is something wrong about this, something that clashes with our humanity.

Medaka and Zenkichi have never understood each other. My pet theory is that they attribute something in themselves to the other person, which actually isn't the same thing at all. Zenkichi says early on that Medaka loves all of humanity like her family. Later Zenkichi says that he always supports his friends. Zenkichi equates Medaka's ideal to the loyalty and caring he has, but Medaka has no such loyalty to anyone. Everyone is equal. No one is special. Friends and enemies are alike. Medaka has no bonds. In the same way, Medaka equates Zenkichi's caring with Medaka's ideals. And these two things are not the same thing whatsoever.

Even though they can often look the same, caring does not equal ideals. In fact, they are polar opposites. In many cases, I'm sure Zenkichi would support his friends even if they were wrong, but Medaka has no loyalty to anyone, just to her ideal of 'people'. Medaka would betray her friends as quickly as she'd support her enemies. Zenkichi would factor in his relationships to his friends.
It's pretty presumptuous to go out and decide what constitutes "our" humanity, isn't it? The range of human experience is a pretty wide space. Medaka had been indebted to Zenkichi for 13 years. Wasn't it time to, as Ajimu Najimi says, stop being "held back" by him? If neither Medaka nor Zenkichi ever really understood each other, why should they place any weight on or hold onto that history? The effort and loyalty Zenkichi put into his relationship with Medaka, the effort and loyalty Medaka also put into her relationship with Zenkichi, it has certainly been long enough that they should be allowed to expire. Who the hell wants to live chained/burdened by a promise and relationship which was created when they were 2 yrs old?

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About Medaka wanting to form a genuine bond with Zenkichi, I can't say at this point. I don't think she even considers it a possibility, really. Her behaviors seem to suggest indifference to him being unique (different) in any way, which is a cornerstone of one of the ideals that she talks about. To her, it would be impossible for him, much less anybody else, to become 'unique' or 'special' to her. In fact, it might be appropriate to say that she denies the possible existence of such a thing.
Yet another one letting the distinction completely pass them by. To Medaka, there certainly are people whom she is "fond of". That used to be Zenkichi, that stopped when she found out how much their past "understanding" was really worth. Now it's Zenkichi again as he's decided to actually stand up to her. To Medaka, there is a distinction between what is objectively "special" and personally "liked". To help you with the distinction, consider first that it is possible for "liked" things to still be fallible. At the time that Kikaijima was asking her, Zenkichi certainly was "unique" to Medaka in that she actually liked him. It's just that Medaka expressed that "like" by beating him brutally (while knowing he could take it) as opposed to going easy on him in a way that Kikaijima perhaps expected.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-10-26 at 20:00.
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Old 2011-10-26, 19:47   Link #5044
[HearT]
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ロ" Holy Cheese On Rye!!!! You people are writing freakin' Novels here!!!

@telamont: I really like everything you said XD and I really need to stop taking everything Ajimu is saying as undeniable truth! There's a reason she's the 'villain'! XD lol Thanks for your post :)
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Old 2011-10-26, 20:27   Link #5045
Last Carpet
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...Hmmm

I can't tell how this'll go.

It's looks like it's set up for yet another Medaka victory, but I can't really tell.

If I had to guess on the outcome, I'd say when they face off it'll end in one of two ways

1. Zenkichi defeats her making Medaka appreciate him, earning him back his place at her side.

2. Medaka defeats him, but stays the same instead of reforming like her other enemies.

(I seriously doubt losing to Medaka would end in him returning to her side as if nothing happened)
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Old 2011-10-26, 21:01   Link #5046
sungreentakeo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Yes, Medaka is exceptionally perfect or whatever, the point of that, as has been stated so many times, is that that perfection of hers make it hard for her to interact with people, because they're all either afraid of her, or worshipping her like a god. No one is arguing about Medaka being perfect or whatever, what's annoying is when people believe that because she's like that, everything must be Medaka's fault.
Everything must be Medaka's fault? So it's a fault game? All I just said about their relationship, and her not factoring in all sorts of things that are generally important to people... The whole thing about the downside of considering no one special... How Zenkichi is different from everybody else... Relationships, blah blah blah... The flaw in her personality?

Just ignored that huh?

It's not that what Zenkichi was doing was bad. It was that what he was doing was never going to work, because Medaka is abnormal. What he was doing essentially telegraphing that, yes, he didn't understand her. Neither does she understand him. Neither does she really genuinely understand anybody or anybody else her.

He wants a special relationship with her. She doesn't acknowledge special people or relationships exist (the second part inferred from the first, and her behavior). She pulls him as a tag-along for 95% of their lives as long as she finds him interesting. He does what would NORMALLY work to create a special relationship with her. He supports her even though he sometimes disagrees with her. He tries to protect her too. She just sees him as a rare oddity.

Remember how she was kissing everybody before the beginning of the manga? That's just one example, but that's not the only area where she is clueless about people or when she screws up with people in a big way. Unzen also mentioned that she was going to make normal people miserable in that same Soliloquy that she called her lonely. What are you going to say? That's just her nature, so the resulting actions were not her fault? It's Zenkichi's fault because he wasn't trying hard enough or he wasn't smart enough to figure it out? Because he was trying to do things too normally?

He's still trying! He's changing. Ajimu said Medaka had become the "person who breaks bonds!"

He's trying to make bonds, but he's in a stupid situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
It's funny, people are all up in arms about Medaka being wrong, yet people ignore the fact that Zen is much more wrong in this instance than she is. Putting aside their fight, in which I think they're both equally wrong but that's another matter, Zen is consciously working with the Flask Plan, the same Flask Plan that was planning to use the student body as lab rats, and was perfectly OK with their experiment killing most of the students. What's really interesting about Zen fans is that they don't care about that.
Apparently you don't just ignore what I say, you also ignore what the manga says. Zenkichi is the last lab rat. No one shall be harmed but Zenkichi. He's sacrificing himself. So your point about the flask plan being a massace of the student body doesn't apply at this point of the story and it's incomprehensible that you would even bring it up. It's like you're clutching at straws to turn Zenkichi into a villain in order to somehow marginalize Medaka's character flaw. Hah, even if it were true, the dehumanizing aspects of her personality would still be there regardless of what Zenkichi does.

Getting back to the 'flask plan' point, Zenkichi would stop a massacre of the students as much as anybody else. If Ajimu hadn't prefaced the whole thing by saying the only sacrifice would be him. He wouldn't have done it otherwise. I don't even consider myself a 'Zenkichi fan', but I can recognize what you're saying is ridiculous.

He's not doing anything wrong at all. He's just defying Medaka. The only tipping point may be the willingness to do anything and the fact that we're not clear what sort of entity Ajimu is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
We already got behind that shell, what's behind that shell as Unzen says, is just a plain lonely girl. Personally, what I hope to see out of this arc is more about that side of her.
Or we got behind that shell and saw Medaka II, the abomination stemming from her true nature. We also saw a pretty much heartless, conquering Medaka in her early childhood. Or perhaps the Medaka that was going to murder Unzen unless she was physically held back and then mentally restrained by Zenkichi?

I already wrote about this in many many ways. She is not a needy person. She is not lonely in the sense that normal people are lonely. She doesn't need anybody else's approval. She doesn't need anybody. At some level, she may want someone special in her life but she doesn't acknowledge such people exist.

Medaka is a person with a broken personality, but she's not a lonely person in the traditional sense. She's too strong to be lonely. But, she is an alone person. But if you mean that she's keeping herself from a whole bunch of wonderful things like relationships with 'special' people, that's absolutely true. She's also harmful to herself like this. Zenkichi will probably end up saving her from this part of herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
What's annoying about the comments from hardcore Zen fans is that they seem to want to push all the issues with Zen and Medaka's relationship onto Medaka,as if it's all her fault. She has some of the blame but Zen has to shoulder an equal amount of blame. Yet Zen fans feel that everything is all Medaka's fault, most Medaka fans realize Medaka's faults which is something I can't say most Zen fans realize about Zen.
Again with this fault thing? The support for Zenkichi comes from a whole bunch of emotional things.

He's tried. He's failed. He loves Medaka. He was spinning on a self-destructive course when his belief system had been taken out from under him. He values her but she doesn't value him. He needed someone and that person ended up being Ajimu, and those rooftop supporters. He was also basically stuck in really a disheartening situation where he would have never been able to start a romantic relationship with Medaka. His childhood friend just dismissed him because he had a moment of weakness. All those times were meaningful to him, but they weren't meaningful to Medaka. He was her accessory.

Fault? It's about sympathy.

Someone trying but being stupid but genuine is going to engender my pity. Someone being distant and cold to that person will annoy me.

People aren't really faulting Medaka.. They're upset at her. I wrote out quite a bit in that last post explaining why.

Zenkichi is not perfect or superhuman. Zenkichi also contradicts himself by saying he understands her best at the beginning of the manga, and then he has an epiphany where he mentions that nobody really has tried to understand Medaka. In other words, he did think he understood her, then he realized he didn't. Zenkichi is trying and he's failing, but Medaka is also something along the lines of the definition of an impossible challenge. He needs god (Ajimu) to even make this possible.

Personal relationships are not where Medaka shines, and Zenkichi does substantially better in this area. But then again, she was heartlessly taking everyone's first kiss (which is supposed to be special) because it sounded like a good idea to her. If it makes you feel better to defend this imaginary person's honor, she does better at everywhere else... *Shrug*

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
See, now this is interesting here. It's a difference of opinion. You believe that Medaka is a sociopath that can't forms bonds with people. Bit a bond with someone is a two way street. I believe that she's a lonely girl who no one tried to form a bond with, especially Zenkichi, who by his own admission, never tried.
I keep on using the word sociopath because it's convenient. Basically, she's abnormal and it's more like she refuses to understand people. It's like the whole thing about her trusting people who are out and out scamming her. I remember something like this happened early on. But then it works out.. She's wrong about these people, but her stubbornness, plot shield and super charisma overpowers reality essentially. Whereas other people would have been burned in those situations and laughed at, she comes out shining. What I believe this was meant to show us was that Medaka actually didn't understand people. I think some people thought this meant that she actually understood what would happen, but that's not the case. She has impossibly strong belief and she's superhuman in every way including charisma. If she said everybody was evil, everybody would be turning evil by being around her influence.

Contrast this to how Zenkichi helped Emukae. He understood her and then said he couldn't stand someone suffering like that. Essentially, he understood her and then told her what she needed to her.

Medaka would have helped her too, but she would have steamrolled over her and forced her to become a better person, basically. You probably would have even had the same results, but there is someone subtly unsatisfying about how Medaka does things.

But that refusal to understand people doesn't just come out as good things. That's the part of the story we're getting into.

Nobody at this point can understand her and also that she cannot and will not change. She changes other people. The ONLY exception to this is Zenkichi, who managed to change her. Can he now learn to understand her and take that to the next step? We'll see.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I wish I had your faith in people. Personally, in my experience, these people hated her from the beginning of the manga, the same ones that were constantly around the place bitching when they thought the manga would get cancelled, but hey, people are entitled to their beliefs.
They hated her because she's a parody of a stereotype. As a Medaka fan, you acknowledge that she isn't JUST a parody of a stereotype. But I'm assuming a fair number of people wanted the conflict between her and zenkichi which might be happening now to happen sooner. I honestly can't tell because I on this forum back then.

You know, I like her character. I also like Zenkichi. I have a feeling I'm going to love this conflict. But when Medaka does something wrong, I'm not going to get upset.... I'm going to get excited because something interesting is finally happening. I want to know what this 'beast' inside of her exactly is. I want to know more about that dark and ominous nature she seems to be suppressing. That's the very first thing Zenkichi denied when he first met her. If Zenkichi is going to understand her, that's going to be what I think he might have to learn to understand... And he's going to still love her anyway... It's going to be interesting how she reacts to that.

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So you thought it would be marginalizing and insulting to mention, so you say you're not going to mention it. How passive-aggressive.
Hahahah, it actually is passive aggressive but that isn't why I wrote it. I said it, because it is true. I reading through what sol falling had written and commenting piece by piece, and then I was like, "Holy crap, did he/she actually write that? I had just rewritten what I wrote because I just deleted the same thing. I thought I was getting too angry over this, and they actually wrote it."

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Now see, I can only wonder how you can think like that, I'm just thankful that I don't thin like you.

It's exactly because she's different that she needs friends, more than a normal person does. It's the tragedy of her life that she's doesn't have any. Nobody is too strong for friends, everybody needs someone else, regardless of strength
You're missing what I'm saying and the intentions behind me saying it. She's not a tragic person. If everyone in the world was her enemy, she'd be ok. If everyone were her follower, she wouldn't be any better.

We see that she would be happier with genuine relationships. That's true. We see that she'd probably be happier if she were capable of returning Zenkichi's love or anybody's for that matter. We see that she'd probably be happier if she could just sit down and talk with people on the same level without preaching to them or having some cause.

But she doesn't need it. Not like how most people need it. She's not needy like how we're all needy for attention in our lives.. I mean like how you want your friends attention... Or perhaps how you want your parent's attention? Or perhaps the attention of some significant other.

She is far too independent and strong in terms of personality and mind to ever need that. Period. She's got the personality of the perfect invincible leader.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Let's flip the scrip, shall we? Zenkichi has known Medaka for 13 years,and he says that he's her friend and that he cares about her, yet by his own admission, he never once even attempted to try to understand her. Zenkichi is supposed to be normal, what kind of normal person hangs around with someone for all that time yet never tries to understand her and then claims he cares about her. What does he care about then? If it wasn't obvious that Zen does care about her, I'd seriously wonder about that, as it is, I just think he has some serious self-esteem issues.

There's something so fundamentally wrong with that, I shouldn't have to explain.
Nobody understands Medaka. Zenkichi said he did more than anyone else at the beginning of the manga. He inferred that no-one had tried to understand her much later on.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that he has tried to understand her but he failed miserably for the same reason Medaka failed to understand him. They speak different languages (a normal caring person vs. ideals), and so they may be on the same side generally but their motivations come from different sources.

He's showing affection. He means it. He's doing it for her, and not for some ideal that he's supposed to save all people. If you're going to just brush that off, then I don't know to say.

He's failed, but he's tried. He's tried and failed on that topic more than anybody else. After a point, he just came to accept her. I thought accepting people was a good trait, not a bad one?

Honestly, I'm being a bit facetious there. The point is that he's treated her with affection, support and the whole enchilada. He's been trying, but he's been failing. She doesn't understand the significant of the stuff he does. Like the whole, telling her that he loves her wasn't really a significant thing to her. After all, he isn't special and she loves everybody. If he loves her, what's the big deal? She helps people; if he's trying to help her, how is that special? After all, under her motto, SHE ISN'T SPECIAL EITHER.

That last part is interesting isn't it? Talk about needing to be saved from yourself, eh?

Since she isn't special, how would Zenkichi treating her specially be significant? Hmm?

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Now that's plain silly. She didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be.
You're absolutely right on this one. But, that's not the whole picture. If you spent your entire life supporting someone, and then they throw you off a cliff when they feel like it, people will find one side callous and the other side pitiful.. The pitiful side in this is Zenkichi and the callous side is Medaka. The reason why I mentioned the whole influence on Zenkichi by Medaka thing is to show that she was taking an active part in this. He would go off, and say that he was tired of this... And then she would influence him because he loves her and she has a ton of charisma, and then he would be unhappy again. Maybe Zenkichi was weak, but Medaka was callous and manipulative. I don't really hold weakness against the weak especially when someone is trying, but callousness and manipulation are something that are actually sinister. I don't think Medaka is sinister though, but she is oblivious and callous... And somewhat manipulative in getting her way.

On a side note, that's probably a subtle hint of Zenkichi's old method of operation. He would keep on trying and he would keep on failing, even when it came to getting away from Medaka who he recognized as an unhealthy influence at some point.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Nisio, through Kikajima pointed out how warped Zen's perspective of Medaka was, when she asked him about Medaka not knowing about amusement parks, he said she has no need to know about them. Nisio, through Zen's own mother, pointed out how messed up their relationship is.
Zenkichi was just dismissing what she was saying as ridiculous at the time atleast that's what I'm inferring from the context. It's not super respectful, but it's also not warped or anything. He isn't keeping her in a cage or restricting her or anything..

As for their unhealthy relationship, that was a good healthy dose of foreshadowing!

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Medaka fans aren't ignoring that, we're well aware. What Zenkichi fans are ignoring is that fact that Zenkichi isn't perfect, or a completely innocent victim of cruel, cruel Medaka. In a very real way, Medaka is Zenkichi's victim just as much as he is hers.
Medaka is not Zenkichi's victim. Honestly, she isn't anybody's victim... But, yeah, I'd love to hear your reasoning for this. Seriously, beating on the pitiful person in this scenario to protect your favorite character. Oh kay.

Oh, well, I guess Zenkichi's abuse of Medaka started when they were two and he convinced her that life wasn't meaningless. It then progressed to him playing with her and giving her flowers as children. Very abusive. It later progressed into a single-minded love, loyalty and support of her.

Oh, and then when she had finally gotten better and turned into Medaka II... Well, he just couldn't let things be and let her become the miserable self-centered abomination of evil she'd always wanted to be. Sigh, some people.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Medaka has no bonds because no one has made any with her, certainly not Zenkichi. I'm quite sure she can have bonds just like everyone else. What I hpe is that Zenkichi actually creates one.
I think I explained sufficiently what is wrong with her world view that it gets in the way of her having relationships. But you'd better believe that if she acknowledges some people are special, then there is going to be some aftereffects from that, because whenever Medaka does something she goes overboard and applies it to everything.

But, yeah, I'm hoping for the both of them to have a romantic relationship.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Again, you're pulling this out of somewhere. Everyone is needy to some extent, everyone needs someone in some way. Part of Medaka's character is that she's alone surrounded by people because people want nothing to do with
That last sentence wasn't finished unfortunately.

Well, I don't know what the source of this idea that Medaka somehow needs anybody. She doesn't. She is the perfectly strong and healthy mentally, physically, and emotionally. She has the personality of a undefeated king.

It's like you're just repeating some Hallmark card platitude to me here and I'm supposed to just believe it.

The reason why she is not needy is because she is so incredibly strong in every way. People need her, but it doesn't work the other way around. This is also one of the reasons why she doesn't understand normal people.

This has become an integral part of her character.

Now, during the first set of chapters there were some hints that she might have a weaker side, but basically after that first part of the manga it totally disappeared. All I can basically say is that from how she's been acting for the past 80 or so chapters generally lacks any neediness or suggestion of vulnerability. After the flask plan progressed, it's like she became more and more inhuman. Maybe that was intentional character development.

Now that I mention that.. It's one reason why I seemed to enjoy the pilot and the earlier chapters more, but that's another topic.

But basically, from what we see now, and what has been suggested, we're dealing with Medaka the invincible whose primary purpose is to accomplish the tasks she sets her mind to.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I don't deny that Medaka valued Zen as a part of some ideal, but so does Zen, he cares about her, but not about the real her, which he, again I'll reiterate by his own admission, never tried to understand. What he cares about must be about what she is, not who she is. Who she is, has nothing to do with him. He's more interested in being her pitbull than her friend.
He does care about the real her. He doesn't understand her, but yeah he does care about the real her. She doesn't have a cloned Medaka robot that he was hanging out with beforehand that is secretly the target of his affection.

She is special to him. She is an important person to him. If he thought she needed help, he'd go out of the way because she was an important person to him. If she changed, he'd do something about it. He wouldn't do that for everybody. Either way, he's important to her and he's thinking about her.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Now that's plain garbage, unfortunately it's garbage I've seen all over the place. She didn't just hit from behind instantly like that, she very nicely told him that the event was over and it was time to go, and he responded by slandering somebody, after which point she hit him on the back of the head and told him to clean up. As a certain man once said 'A slap to the face is an insult, a slap to the back of the head is a wake up call' That's all it was, a wake up call after what he said, which quite frankly he deserved.
Ok, you justify her striking him when he had a moment of weakness. Oh, and uh, she didn't do that because he was slandering anybody. She didn't care about that. No, she hit him because she calculated that he had no worth anymore. Ajimu explained that. She said she couldn't believe that such a worthless person had managed to get her to trust him. Yeah, so, basically it was abuse because his value had lowered in her eyes. She wasn't trying to help or defend anybody. That's it. Basically, what she did was say "You piece of ****" and then hit him.

And, uh, I don't recommend you go around whacking people from behind, especially your friends and family, when they act uncool and weak. Even if they are your friend of 13 years and they'll probably forgive you. I'd suggest you try to understand them in their moments of weakness. At least, that's what I try to do and it works pretty well for keeping stupid conflicts and abuse to a minimum.

Does the bias have any limits? It's like warping your perception of what's ok and not ok in normal situations.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Rubbish. He was trying to prove he was better than everybody else. He was trying to be special, not normal. A normal person would have tried to work together, which is what everyone else did, but apparently that was too demeaning for him.
The normal people and the special people all worked together in this case, really.

As for the whole him trying to be special, you're just wrong. He was having a mid-character crisis. Read what he said in the interview with one of the not-equals before that arc. It was saying it was ruining his life, and then him and Ajimu had a conversation admitting the whole thing was really a set up on her part.

You're just ignoring that entire scene with him talking to Ajimu, the interview with the not-equal, and his comments on how having the parasite eyes changed his life.

Did you skip over those scenes because Medaka wasn't in them?

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And what was Zenkichi thinking about then, pray tell? He was thinking about proving how he was better than everybody else, and then when that didn't work, he was thinking about blaming other people for his problems. Medaka may have made a mistake there, but so did he. But of course, in the minds of Zen fans, the great Hitoyoshi can do no wrong.
Here is how he failed. Medaka said the whole thing was about teamwork. He didn't catch onto that one bit. That was stupid, but not wrong. But he was distracted at the time for reasons that have been explained. What he was doing after the test was refusing to acknowledge what had happened. He sort of didn't want to admit what he had been doing his entire life had been pointless. Obviously the two don't correlate, but he was making the test into a microcosm.

Was he trying to be better than anybody else? Oh, come on, it's laughable that you even suggest it. You're not even trying to understand his character or position. Are you being serious with me? He was trying to prove something to himself. How would solving the puzzle that someone else solved in a second show that he was better than that person? It doesn't make any sense. You aren't even trying to make any sense. It was purely about an issue that Ajimu set into motion.

The reason why he was freaking out afterwards is because he didn't want to admit to himself that he failed.. That what he was trying to do was impossible for him to achieve. He was blaming Kumagawa because Kumagawa is the scariest, most manipulative and evil guy he knows. He's Zenkichi's boogeyman. Literally, Kumagawa is something along the lines of Zenkichi's deepest fear and has emotionally scarred him for life. Kumagawa had nothing to do with anything; Zenkichi was venting his frustrations and denial.

Which points out another thing that Medaka did that didn't take Zenkichi's feelings into consideration... She appointed Kumagawa the vice president. Ouch. She asked in a "I'd know you're a good enough person to accept' sort of baiting way, but we're talking about the guy that Zenkichi got into a deathmatch with and used to make him shiver uncontrollably. Not exactly a high level of empathy for the situation here on Medaka's part.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
We don't know about Medaka's dad, but she does care about her sister, in fact she asked her sister to be her comrade, something everyone was surprised about because it's not her style. She still hangs about her brother, despite him being a degenerate, most people would disown.
She says nobody is special. Her family isn't special to her. They're just more 'people'. I'm just relaying to you verbatim what she says.

She hangs out with lots of people. She hangs out with Kumagawa which is a far worse degenerate. Everybody is equal to her. Nobody is special.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
She doesn't have any friends. No one has ever tried to be her friend, certainly not Zen. In fact, the rest of the student council are probably closer to her than him. What clashes with my humanity is someone being around someone for 13 years and yet not once trying to understand them, despite being normal.
So, biased... So, incredibly... biased... My God...

It's like now you have a vendetta against Zenkichi because he's in such a pitiful situation that it makes Medaka look bad. I honestly don't know what to say. You're obviously being sarcastic, but seriously... Do you treat your lifetime friends who are loyal to you and care about you like trash? You ignored everything that I wrote.
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Old 2011-10-26, 21:21   Link #5047
MD84
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, Zenkichi never bothered to create a bond with Medaka because he never even saw her as really human, believing in that "paragon" image of her loving everybody so that his only personal worry was being "strong/worthy" enough to stand beside her. Zenkichi has finally realized that the "help everybody" mission he gave her is complete bullshit--what he doesn't know is that Medaka herself has also long moved past that naive perspective, as is fully demonstrated in the dialogue/exchanges Medaka has had with Ajimu.
Zenkichi hasn't believed in that mission for most of the series -- the only reason he hung out with and supported Medaka was because he loved her. Which in itself was still wrong of him since he wasn't being honest. The one good thing that's come out of this arc so far is that he's finally being up front about it with Medaka. Who responded by attacking him from behind, beating him to a bloody pulp -- while using a handicap that would keep her from accidentally killing him -- and mocking him. For his own good, of course.

I do agree that it's wrong to pin all of the blame on Medaka for their current relationship problems. She can't help being an Abnormal that can only reach mutual understanding with others through conflict. Zenkichi himself realizes in chapter 117 that he is mostly to blame, and that's why he's trying to change. He's becoming Medaka's enemy because it's the only way she will be able to understand him -- "for Medaka, fighting and confronting other people is part of a process of understanding".

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is a false projection. First, Medaka didn't say anything about "from the start" when she told Kikaijima that she preferred Zen as an enemy. Second, for Medaka, fighting and confronting other people is part of a process of understanding. What is important to Medaka is not the fighting and conflict, but the understanding itself. This is the nature of Medaka's abnormality, "perfect observation". It is also through fighting that Medaka can show her own struggle and allow her enemies to see the effort that she puts into her existence--i.e., a way for others to come to understand her. While they may still be adversaries, Medaka actually rarely fights with the same person more than once. This is because once they've come to understand each other, there is little need for further conflict, and what remains is a friendly mutual relationship of self-determination and respect.
She mentioned that she "carelessly left him somewhere she shouldn't have". Maybe it's a translation issue, but it really seems like she's saying she should have made him her enemy sooner.

As for why her biggest adversaries in the series haven't tried to fight her again? It's because they know they can't win. Unzen notably still doesn't agree with her, he just knows fighting her is pointless. Oudo was outright terrified of Medaka's "The End" abnormality, which nearly killed him when he tried to take it. It's less a "friendly mutual relationship of self-determination and respect" and more a case of staying the heck out of her way. They do have some respect for her though, as seen when they cheer her on during her battle with Kumagawa. What you said does hold true for Kumagawa, though it notably didn't work the first time she beat him up in middle school.
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Old 2011-10-26, 22:41   Link #5048
[HearT]
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Kind of off topic. Kinda not.
On weekly shonen jump's official website, there is what appears to be a commemoration for the anime by having the 4 top ranked battles/best ranked chapters (something like that) online to read.

4th: Zenkichi vs Munakata
3rd: Naze vs minus boob chick (forgot her name~)
2nd: Kumagawa vs the not equal girls
1st: Zenkichi vs Kumagawa



yep. carry on with your insanely long comments.

Last edited by [HearT]; 2011-10-26 at 23:44.
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Old 2011-10-26, 23:20   Link #5049
Endscape
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Everything must be Medaka's fault? So it's a fault game? All I just said about their relationship, and her not factoring in all sorts of things that are generally important to people... The whole thing about the downside of considering no one special... How Zenkichi is different from everybody else... Relationships, blah blah blah... The flaw in her personality?
It's Zen fans who treat it like a fault game. I made it clear that I think they're both at fault, if you want to bring fault into it. Medaka doesn't factor n things important to people, but neither does Zen.

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It's not that what Zenkichi was doing was bad. It was that what he was doing was never going to work, because Medaka is abnormal. What he was doing essentially telegraphing that, yes, he didn't understand her. Neither does she understand him. Neither does she really genuinely understand anybody or anybody else her.
Quite good, you seem to have gotten it. What Zenkichi was doing previously was never going to work, not only because Medaka is abnormal but because what he was doing wasn't effective. She doesn't understand him and he doesn't understand her.

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He wants a special relationship with her. She doesn't acknowledge special people or relationships exist (the second part inferred from the first, and her behavior). She pulls him as a tag-along for 95% of their lives as long as she finds him interesting. He does what would NORMALLY work to create a special relationship with her. He supports her even though he sometimes disagrees with her. He tries to protect her too. She just sees him as a rare oddity.
Now where do you get this from. If that was so, she wouldn't want him to be her enemy, she would have nothing to do him at all, nor would she like her enemies. And don't forget, he had himself as a tag along as much she had him. And you're right, Zen did all of those things, but he didn't do the one thing that would create a special relationship with her: be her friend.

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Remember how she was kissing everybody before the beginning of the manga? That's just one example, but that's not the only area where she is clueless about people or when she screws up with people in a big way. Unzen also mentioned that she was going to make normal people miserable in that same Soliloquy that she called her lonely. What are you going to say? That's just her nature, so the resulting actions were not her fault? It's Zenkichi's fault because he wasn't trying hard enough or he wasn't smart enough to figure it out? Because he was trying to do things too normally?
Of course Medaka has problems interacting with people, I never denied that. Of course she would hurt normal people sometimes, you don't have to be abnormal to do that. Just being abnormal merely makes her actions understandable, not faultless. Zenkichi did try hard, he just didn't try hard enough at the right thing. He didn't try to do things normally, he tried to do things abnormally, a normal thing to do would be to try to understand her, if people like Unzen and Kikajima who've known her less than a year could realize she's lonely, why couldn't Zen?

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He's still trying! He's changing. Ajimu said Medaka had become the "person who breaks bonds!"
Well if Ajimu said it,it must be true, right

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He's trying to make bonds, but he's in a stupid situation.
Quite right, a stupid situation both he and Medaka created.


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Apparently you don't just ignore what I say, you also ignore what the manga says. Zenkichi is the last lab rat. No one shall be harmed but Zenkichi. He's sacrificing himself. So your point about the flask plan being a massace of the student body doesn't apply at this point of the story and it's incomprehensible that you would even bring it up.
Again, if Ajimu says it, it must be true, right? And that means what they were doing before is A-OK too, right? What I'm doing is something incomprehensible to Zen fans, the idea that Zen may be wrong about certain things. Radical, I know, but I persevere.

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It's like you're clutching at straws to turn Zenkichi into a villain in order to somehow marginalize Medaka's character flaw. Hah, even if it were true, the dehumanizing aspects of her personality would still be there regardless of what Zenkichi does.
And it's like you're putting words in my mouth. It's not a straw, he did join the Flask Plan, and I'm not marginalizing Medaka's character flaws, I'm well aware of them, I'm just putting forward that Zen has them as well. Since we're bringing up Medaka's flaws, it's only fair.



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Getting back to the 'flask plan' point, Zenkichi would stop a massacre of the students as much as anybody else.
So it's OK if he does something bad, as long as he fixes it? So, if I cut a dude's leg off,as long as I got him a prosthetic, it's OK, then?

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If Ajimu hadn't prefaced the whole thing by saying the only sacrifice would be him. He wouldn't have done it otherwise. I don't even consider myself a 'Zenkichi fan', but I can recognize what you're saying is ridiculous.
Again, why would Zenkichi trust what she says, the same person who he knows has absolutely no value for human life. Of course, she would have said that, anything to get him to obey her.

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He's not doing anything wrong at all. He's just defying Medaka. The only tipping point may be the willingness to do anything and the fact that we're not clear what sort of entity Ajimu is.
He is doing something wrong. I don't care if he wants to fight Medaka, it's all well and good, but joining up with the Flask Plan and Ajimu is wrong, no doubt on that. He even thinks she's using him, yet goes along with it because he think he can stop it. If someone loses their life over that, I don't think they'll care.



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Or we got behind that shell and saw Medaka II, the abomination stemming from her true nature. We also saw a pretty much heartless, conquering Medaka in her early childhood. Or perhaps the Medaka that was going to murder Unzen unless she was physically held back and then mentally restrained by Zenkichi?
Personally I think people are what created Medaka II, the way they treat her, but's something else. Let's not forget she became that way after meeting Kumagawa, but again that's that. As for the Unzen thing, she got pissed, people kill each other over that everyday. It was a mistake, and she regrets it.

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I already wrote about this in many many ways. She is not a needy person. She is not lonely in the sense that normal people are lonely. She doesn't need anybody else's approval. She doesn't need anybody. At some level, she may want someone special in her life but she doesn't acknowledge such people exist.
And I already wrote that's rubbish. All people are needy people in some way, all of them all people want the approval of others. All people need others in some way. Unless you say she's not human, it's rubbish.

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Medaka is a person with a broken personality, but she's not a lonely person in the traditional sense. She's too strong to be lonely. But, she is an alone person. But if you mean that she's keeping herself from a whole bunch of wonderful things like relationships with 'special' people, that's absolutely true. She's also harmful to herself like this. Zenkichi will probably end up saving her from this part of herself.
Medaka does have a broken personality, but she is lonely. If she isn't she's not human, and since she is human, she's lonely. NO ONE is too strong to not be lonely. I think people are keeping her from having relationships with special people as much as she herself is.

I'll agree with you that Zen probably will help with that.



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Again with this fault thing? The support for Zenkichi comes from a whole bunch of emotional things.

He's tried. He's failed. He loves Medaka. He was spinning on a self-destructive course when his belief system had been taken out from under him. He values her but she doesn't value him. He needed someone and that person ended up being Ajimu, and those rooftop supporters. He was also basically stuck in really a disheartening situation where he would have never been able to start a romantic relationship with Medaka. His childhood friend just dismissed him because he had a moment of weakness. All those times were meaningful to him, but they weren't meaningful to Medaka. He was her accessory.
There are elements of truth to this, but it's too biased. Some of those problems Zen had are of his own design and his own delusions

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Fault? It's about sympathy.

Someone trying but being stupid but genuine is going to engender my pity. Someone being distant and cold to that person will annoy me.
He's trying and he's stupid, and I do sympathize with him, but I blame him too.

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People aren't really faulting Medaka.. They're upset at her. I wrote out quite a bit in that last post explaining why.
Not what I'm seeing, but hey, your opinion.

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Zenkichi is not perfect or superhuman. Zenkichi also contradicts himself by saying he understands her best at the beginning of the manga, and then he has an epiphany where he mentions that nobody really has tried to understand Medaka. In other words, he did think he understood her, then he realized he didn't. Zenkichi is trying and he's failing, but Medaka is also something along the lines of the definition of an impossible challenge. He needs god (Ajimu) to even make this possible.
This is where I disagree. He never even tried, by his own words. He just stayed by her side because he thought she was amazing and mistook that for friendship because he knew her so long. He should have tried actually being her friend. He doesn't need Ajimu for that.

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Personal relationships are not where Medaka shines, and Zenkichi does substantially better in this area. But then again, she was heartlessly taking everyone's first kiss (which is supposed to be special) because it sounded like a good idea to her. If it makes you feel better to defend this imaginary person's honor, she does better at everywhere else... *Shrug*
We don't know the circumstances, but that was indelicate of her.


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I keep on using the word sociopath because it's convenient. Basically, she's abnormal and it's more like she refuses to understand people. It's like the whole thing about her trusting people who are out and out scamming her. I remember something like this happened early on. But then it works out.. She's wrong about these people, but her stubbornness, plot shield and super charisma overpowers reality essentially. Whereas other people would have been burned in those situations and laughed at, she comes out shining. What I believe this was meant to show us was that Medaka actually didn't understand people. I think some people thought this meant that she actually understood what would happen, but that's not the case. She has impossibly strong belief and she's superhuman in every way including charisma. If she said everybody was evil, everybody would be turning evil by being around her influence.
Using a word because it's convenient, lovely. And it's less she refuses to understand people and more she plain doesn't know how, in my opinion. And you're wrong about her trusting people like that. She did get burned multiple times. Multiple people thought she was stupid because it. Naze tricked her and she got caught and beat up because of it. I would say her faith changed them, but her charisma does have something to do it, too.

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Contrast this to how Zenkichi helped Emukae. He understood her and then said he couldn't stand someone suffering like that. Essentially, he understood her and then told her what she needed to her.
Because he had parasite eyes, he was able to understand her, remember. But your point stands.

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Medaka would have helped her too, but she would have steamrolled over her and forced her to become a better person, basically. You probably would have even had the same results, but there is someone subtly unsatisfying about how Medaka does things.
That...doesn't make any sense. If it were so, Unzen would be Vice-President by now instead of Kumagawa. You can't force someone to be better, people are contrary creatures. Medaka is just so amazing, people want to change, you can call that being forced, but there's no compulsion, in it, so....

But that refusal to understand people doesn't just come out as good things. That's the part of the story we're getting into.

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They hated her because she's a parody of a stereotype. As a Medaka fan, you acknowledge that she isn't JUST a parody of a stereotype. But I'm assuming a fair number of people wanted the conflict between her and zenkichi which might be happening now to happen sooner. I honestly can't tell because I on this forum back then.
In my experience, they hated her because she was an attractive, strong, intelligent female main character with amazing overpowering skills,which to most people equals Mary Sue, though they don't even understand the meaning of the word.

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Hahahah, it actually is passie aggressive but that isn't why I wrote it. I said it, because it is true. I reading through what sol falling had written and commenting piece by piece, and then I was like, "Holy crap, did he/she actually write that? I had just rewritten what I wrote because I just deleted the same thing. I thought I was getting too angry over this, and they actually wrote it."
True, but you might have been better served saying nothing at all, really.


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You're missing what I'm saying and the intentions behind me saying it. She's not a tragic person. If everyone in the world was her enemy, she'd be ok. If everyone were her follower, she wouldn't be any better.
She is a tragic person. Not being understood by people, even those around you is pretty tragic. She's be happier if everyone was her enemy because then at least they wouldn't be putting her on a pedestal, which is probably worse from her point of view.

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We see that she would be happier with genuine relationships. That's true. We see that she'd probably be happier if she were capable of returning Zenkichi's love or anybody's for that matter. We see that she'd probably be happier if she could just sit down and talk with people on the same level without preaching to them or having some cause.

But she doesn't need it. Not like how most people need it. She's not needy like how we're all needy for attention in our lives.. I mean like how you want your friends attention... Or perhaps how you want your parent's attention? Or perhaps the attention of some significant other.

She is far too independent and strong in terms of personality and mind to ever need that. Period. She's got the personality of the perfect invincible leader.
Again, you come out with that rubbish. She does need all those things, everyone does and she is no exception. In fact, your attitude is probably the same as Zen's. He doesn't feel she needs what normal people need because she's amazing, which is rubbish, but she's still a human being, no matter how amazing.

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I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that he has tried to understand her but he failed miserably for the same reason Medaka failed to understand him. They speak different languages (a normal caring person vs. ideals), and so they may be on the same side generally but their motivations come from different sources.
Wrong. He clearly said he didn't even try to understand her, because she was so amazing.

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He's showing affection. He means it. He's doing it for her, and not for some ideal that he's supposed to save all people. If you're going to just brush that off, then I don't know to say.
He thinks he is, but if he were, he would actually try to relate to her like a human being and try to understand her.

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He's failed, but he's tried. He's tried and failed on that topic more than anybody else. After a point, he just came to accept her. I thought accepting people was a good trait, not a bad one?
He didn't accept her, that's the point. Accepting someone means understanding them, even a little and Zen doesn't. He just decided 'Medaka's a superhuman who I can't try to understand' and left it at that.

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Honestly, I'm being a bit facetious there. The point is that he's treated her with affection, support and the whole enchilada. He's been trying, but he's been failing. She doesn't understand the significant of the stuff he does. Like the whole, telling her that he loves her wasn't really a significant thing to her. After all, he isn't special and she loves everybody. If he loves her, what's the big deal? She helps people; if he's trying to help her, how is that special? After all, under her motto, SHE ISN'T SPECIAL EITHER.
It's meaningless. All the love and affection in the world, while great and wonderful won't mean much if you don't understand the person you're giving it too. If you don't, then what are you giving love and affection to, your image of that person. It's like saying you love Scarlet Johanssen, when you've just seen her movies.

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You're absolutely right on this one. But, that's not the whole picture. If you spent your entire life supporting someone, and then they throw you off a cliff when they feel like it, people will find one side callous and the other side pitiful.. The pitiful side in this is Zenkichi and the callous side is Medaka. The reason why I mentioned the whole influence on Zenkichi by Medaka thing is to show that she was taking an active part in this. He would go off, and say that he was tired of this... And then she would influence him because he loves her and she has a ton of charisma, and then he would be unhappy again. Maybe Zenkichi was weak, but Medaka was callous and manipulative. I don't really hold weakness against the weak especially when someone is trying, but callousness and manipulation are something that are actually sinister. I don't think Medaka is sinister though, but she is oblivious and callous... And somewhat manipulative in getting her way.
So if you ask someone to do something for you and they do it, you're manipulative? Quite right, humans manipulate humans all the time, everyone does it. Also, Medaka didn't throw him away, she decided that he'd be better off as an enemy of hers. Presumptuous perhaps, but she's not making him do it

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On a side note, that's probably a subtle hint of Zenkichi's old method of operation. He would keep on trying and he would keep on failing, even when it came to getting away from Medaka who he recognized as an unhealthy influence at some point.
Unzen and Shiranui say hi. In your reality, they'd both be members of the Student Council by now.

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Medaka is not Zenkichi's victim. Honestly, she isn't anybody's victim... But, yeah, I'd love to hear your reasoning for this. Seriously, beating on the pitiful person in this scenario to protect your favorite character. Oh kay.

Oh, well, I guess Zenkichi's abuse of Medaka started when they were two and he convinced her that life wasn't meaningless. It then progressed to him playing with her and giving her flowers as children. Very abusive. It later progressed into a single-minded love, loyalty and support of her.

Oh, and then when she had finally gotten better and turned into Medaka II... Well, he just couldn't let things be and let her become the miserable self-centered abomination of evil she'd always wanted to be. Sigh, some people.
Now you're being facetious, and also putting words in my mouth. I said Medaka was Zen's victim as much as he is hers. Their relationship is unhealthy, they're both using the other and they're both being being used.

But feel free to continue being facetious, I'm sure someone somewhere found it funny.


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That last sentence wasn't finished unfortunately.

Well, I don't know what the source of this idea that Medaka somehow needs anybody. She doesn't. She is the perfectly strong and healthy mentally, physically, and emotionally. She has the personality of a undefeated king.

It's like you're just repeating some Hallmark card platitude to me here and I'm supposed to just believe it.

The reason why she is not needy is because she is so incredibly strong in every way. People need her, but it doesn't work the other way around. This is also one of the reasons why she doesn't understand normal people.

This has become an integral part of her character.

Now, during the first set of chapters there were some hints that she might have a weaker side, but basically after that first part of the manga it totally disappeared. All I can basically say is that from how she's been acting for the past 80 or so chapters generally lacks any neediness or suggestion of vulnerability. After the flask plan progressed, it's like she became more and more inhuman. Maybe that was intentional character development.

Now that I mention that.. It's one reason why I seemed to enjoy the pilot and the earlier chapters more, but that's another topic.

But basically, from what we see now, and what has been suggested, we're dealing with Medaka the invincible whose primary purpose is to accomplish the tasks she sets her mind to.
It's like you got some idea somewhere that Medaka wasn't human, and decided to run with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, everyone needs someone. She is a strong person, but that doesn't mean she needs no one. She even remarked that the Not Equals were better off than her because they had friends.


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Ok, you justify her striking him when he had a moment of weakness. Oh, and uh, she didn't do that because he was slandering anybody. She didn't care about that. No, she hit him because she calculated that he had no worth anymore. Ajimu explained that. She said she couldn't believe that such a worthless person had managed to get her to trust him. Yeah, so, basically it was abuse because his value had lowered in her eyes. She wasn't trying to help or defend anybody. That's it. Basically, what she did was say "You piece of ****" and then hit him.
If that was so, why hit him? She could have done without it. She hit him as a wake up call because he was acting like an idiot. But if you believe that, there's little I can do for you.


Does the bias have any limits? It's like warping your perception of what's ok and not ok in normal situations.



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The normal people and the special people all worked together in this case, really.

As for the whole him trying to be special, you're just wrong. He was having a mid-character crisis. Read what he said in the interview with one of the not-equals before that arc. It was saying it was ruining his life, and then him and Ajimu had a conversation admitting the whole thing was really a set up on her part.

You're just ignoring that entire scene with him talking to Ajimu, the interview with the not-equal, and his comments on how having the parasite eyes changed his life.

Did you skip over those scenes because Medaka wasn't in them?
He was having a character crisis, that doesn't change the fact he was trying to be special, which is fine, he can do as he wishes, what's not fine is what he did, which is blame his problems on others when his method failed. Zenkichi, the most normal person there, did the most abnormal thing. Even the Minus, Kumagawa, displayed better teamwork than Zen did.



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Here is how he failed. Medaka said the whole thing was about teamwork. He didn't catch onto that one bit. That was stupid, but not wrong. But he was distracted at the time for reasons that have been explained. What he was doing after the test was refusing to acknowledge what had happened. He sort of didn't want to admit what he had been doing his entire life had been pointless. Obviously the two don't correlate, but he was making the test into a microcosm.
Was he trying to be better than anybody else? Oh, come on, it's laughable that you even suggest it. You're not even trying to understand his character or position. Are you being serious with me? He was trying to prove something to himself. How would solving the puzzle that someone else solved in a second show that he was better than that person? It doesn't make any sense. You aren't even trying to make any sense. It was purely about an issue that Ajimu set into motion.
He was trying to be better than them, which is why he didn't want to work together He wanted to prove he was special by doing it all on his own. Which is all fine and dandy, except for his reaction when he failed.

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The reason why he was freaking out afterwards is because he didn't want to admit to himself that he failed.. That what he was trying to do was impossible for him to achieve. He was blaming Kumagawa because Kumagawa is the scariest, most manipulative and evil guy he knows. He's Zenkichi's boogeyman. Literally, Kumagawa is something along the lines of Zenkichi's deepest fear and has emotionally scarred him for life. Kumagawa had nothing to do with anything; Zenkichi was venting his frustrations and denial.
All true, I understand his position just fine, that doesn't make it OK. So because he failed it's OK for him to blame other people then?

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Which points out another thing that Medaka did that didn't take Zenkichi's feelings into consideration... She appointed Kumagawa the vice president. Ouch. She asked in a "I'd know you're a good enough person to accept' sort of baiting way, but we're talking about the guy that Zenkichi got into a deathmatch with and used to make him shiver uncontrollably. Not exactly a high level of empathy for the situation here on Medaka's part.
Wow, it's not like Medaka had a problem with him either. She got over it, though. And Zen knew from quite a while ago that she wanted someone to argue with in that position. In fact Kumagawa said the same thing and Zen himself said it was OK. Indelicate on Medaka's part yes, but she did it not only for er own personal reasons, but as a gesture of conciliation with Class -13, so something like that wouldn't happen anymore. If Zen had a problem , he should have said something.


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So, biased... So, incredibly... biased... My God...
Yes, yes you are.

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It's like now you have a vendetta against Zenkichi because he's in such a pitiful situation that it makes Medaka look bad. I honestly don't know what to say. You're obviously being sarcastic, but seriously... Do you treat your lifetime friends who are loyal to you and care about you like trash? You ignored everything that I wrote.
I have no vendetta against Zenkichi. What I have a vendetta against is people acting like the problems between Zen and Medaka are all Medaka's fault. Zen shares some of the blame.
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Old 2011-10-27, 00:45   Link #5050
Moe Connection
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Join Date: Jan 2011
There's only one thing I would like to say about Medaka. She's simply wrong because she's unappreciative of Zen's efforts and devotion. Zen tried, but failed, but there's nothing wrong about trying. I don't understand the logic behind the Medaka-fans' arguments. You desperately try to say that it was wrong from both sides of the relationship, yes, that is correct, but ultimately, he did everything for Medaka. The Medaka fans are claiming that to be another individual's friend, you have to understand them clearly whatsoever--claiming that Zen's at fault because he did not understand Medaka. You people clearly have forgotten that Medaka's an abnormal and Zen's only a regular human, there's no way he could have ever truly apprehended Medaka's mentality, not even her siblings, most probably. It's like claiming a normal individual's at fault for not understanding a patient at a mental asylum. You claim that Zen's at fault because he's not trying hard enough to mend his 'friendship' with Medaka, but can anyone else do better? And what else could he have done? Like Medaka, you Medaka-fans took Zen's efforts for granted. You call his unwavering devotion a flaw, but how is trying to love another individual a flaw? None of the individuals within this series could have done more than Zen did for Medaka. He deserved praise, but his endeavour was ultimately trampled by Medaka.He's a normal, and he has performed above expectation for Medaka.Zen's devotion to Medaka is a privilege, not a right. Why does he have to put up with Medaka's antics, why does he have to put up with her nonsense? There's just a general lack of appreciation. You people criticized what Zen has done for Medaka, but in turn, what exactly has Medaka done for Zen? Medaka's disregard for Zen mars her as a hypocrite who tramples upon the ideal that she claims to have represented the whole time: that she respects those who strives for achievement.There's no way in hell I would want someone like Medaka to be my friend in real life.
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Old 2011-10-27, 00:50   Link #5051
MD84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
...Hmmm

I can't tell how this'll go.

It's looks like it's set up for yet another Medaka victory, but I can't really tell.

If I had to guess on the outcome, I'd say when they face off it'll end in one of two ways

1. Zenkichi defeats her making Medaka appreciate him, earning him back his place at her side.

2. Medaka defeats him, but stays the same instead of reforming like her other enemies.

(I seriously doubt losing to Medaka would end in him returning to her side as if nothing happened)
A return to the status quo would be the worst possible outcome. The one thing most people on this thread could probably agree on is that Zenkichi's and Medaka's original relationship wasn't good for either of them. A change of some kind was a long time coming.
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Old 2011-10-27, 00:51   Link #5052
TheAlucid
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Oh wow, these posts are getting long.

I think what a lot of people are doing is projecting onto Medaka, and thereby not understanding what so many of us find upsetting about her. That isn't to say some degree of projecting isn't good, as imagining ourself in another person's shoes is the first step to empathy; but what you guys are are assuming is that Medaka has shoes you can imagine yourself from.

What I appreciate the mangaka has been illustrating in recent chapters, and has been done within the Watchmen comic book with regards to Dr. Manhattan, is that the idea of a Superman who psychologically identifies and relates himself with all of normal humanity is absurd.

To use an analogy: I like my pet dog, I might call my dog a friend. But in reality he's a pet, and despite whatever offhand comment I make about my love for my dog I would honestly never consider him more than a pet. By extension, I don't rely on my pet like I would a friend, and only expect of him the ability to perform tricks, eat, sleep, and defecate.

I certainly would never expect my pet to understand anything remotely complex about who I am, I am his owner and he probably only recognizes me as the primary person who plays with him and gives him treats. In return he offers me loyalty and a lesser form of companionship I would expect from a human.

It's not that Medaka has been placed on a pedestal because of her superiority to normal humans and is thereby lonely. But rather Medaka -is- on a pedestal because of her superiority and thereby doesn't care about normal humans like normal humans would for one another. She can't empathize with humanity, and humanity can't empathize with her.

Her love for humanity is that of an owner to his or her pet, it's unconditional and pure but ultimately it's also one-sided and uninvolved.
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Old 2011-10-27, 00:58   Link #5053
sungreentakeo
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You've ignored a few of my points, but I'm going to respond to you fairly since you seem to have some interesting points.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Kikaijima's (immediate) reaction was one character's reaction out of a group of maybe 10. I'm not sure why you're taking a reflection of Kikaijima's perspective and character as an indicator of objectivity beyond everybody else's.
I took it as a hint of an explanation of the situation. Like with movies, when someone puts the camera on something it is meant to make an impact. You choose what and where to see. That scene between Kikaijima and Medaka was intentional on many levels. I wasn't trying to argue for objective truth, since i doubt we could come up with an objective truth in regards to relationships.

But yeah, Nishio is now trying to start edging us towards understanding Medaka better.

We all acknowledge what Medaka's good points are. They're obvious, so they aren't really that interesting.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, Zenkichi never bothered to create a bond with Medaka because he never even saw her as really human, believing in that "paragon" image of her loving everybody so that his only personal worry was being "strong/worthy" enough to stand beside her. Zenkichi has finally realized that the "help everybody" mission he gave her is complete bullshit--what he doesn't know is that Medaka herself has also long moved past that naive perspective, as is fully demonstrated in the dialogue/exchanges Medaka has had with Ajimu.
I think saying that he never saw her as human is reaching quite a bit here. It's more like he may have been the first person to acknowledge her as a human instead of some creepy abnormal superchild.

She hasn't given up on making everyone happy. Chapter 103 - 08 from eatmanga says that she has simply realized that it is an unrealizable pipe dream, but she intends to strive for it anyway. So, yeah, Zenkichi did his thing during the Flask Plan arc and it worked.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The notion of Medaka's "perfection" has already been deconstructed at least three times over. You can't be serious in suggesting that you came away from each of the major conflicts previously only thinking "oh, Medaka is even more perfect and Mary-Sueish than she was previously". Medaka is a dynamic character, she has developed significantly over the course of this series. Your reduction of nearly the entire manga thus far into the throwaway escapades of a "larger than life" hero, meanwhile basing your entire negative interpretation off a couple lines from the first chapter, is frankly ridiculous.
You're coloring what I'm saying through your defense shields. I don't think Medaka is a bad person. I don't think someone who is strong and sticks to their ideals is evil or inherently wrong in some way.

I'll disagree on this point about her deconstruction. We did have Medaka shown to not have always been the person that she was (childhood Medaka)... We also got to see who she could have been (Medaka II)... But we've never actually seen her be genuinely wrong in her 'normal' form. It's like how Medaka said that her previous fight with Zenkichi when he saved her from the brainwashing didn't count; well, that didn't count as a deconstruction of her 'normal' form.

I don't recall a point where the paragon version of Medaka was ever really criticized in a way that stuck.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, "most people". No, that is, again, only the Zenkichi fans who've been resenting Medaka for nearly the entirety of this manga's duration. The only people who've been "shocked" or "enlightened" are the ones who haven't been paying attention.
Well, ok, I can't argue history with you. Medaka fans come off to me as insulting and overly defensive, but maybe you're justified in that because there really was some huge uber forum battle that I wasn't aware of. But there are going to be times when Medaka doesn't look like all sugar and honey right?

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you recognize Medaka's "perfect" image was challenged exactly as early as the Unzen battle, and that she was nevertheless still portrayed and received sympathetically, where exactly does your expectation for a "deconstruction" come from?
I took that as an interesting hint. Sure her friends supported her, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't portrayed as something dangerous and ominous herself. Equally, when unreasonable taxation was absorbing the end and we got to see a little of the horror that Medaka has to live with, I was excited that I would get to know a little bit more about her character. It comes from that this happened.

When we get to see the flaws in Medaka's ideals or her character, I don't expect her to break down and become super evil... I expect that the main event will far more subtle and interesting.

In Zenkichi's case, it's as simple as really callousness towards her oldest friend. She's not quite the shounen hero that is always loyal to her friends and what not.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There aren't too many people who're really Medaka fans, they're simply fans of the manga, period. They've been enjoying the manga up to now for being entertaining and intelligently written. The most popular character is generally Kumagawa. My favourite character in fact used to be Unzen. This thread has a long history of overblown Zen fans running off on delusions and bashing other characters based on premature speculation and spoilers. Your desire to read about and condemn an irredeemable sociopath is more degenerate than actually supported by the manga or relatable. I'm sorry, but if that's what you consider worthwhile "discussion" or "entertainment", you sure are welcome to get your jollies elsewhere.
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. I'm not trying to say that she's a genuinely sociopath. I'm trying to use the word to describe this weird distance she has going on. I'm trying to say that she is so different from other people that in many ways she is similar to a sociopath. I don't think this manga is ever going to travel down that road, because it is far too dark for shounen jump. She's not irredeemable whatsoever. Her absolute belief may make it very difficult to reason with her except through exceptional action.

I'm postulating about her. I'm forming theories. The Medaka fan posts irritate me because we're having a conversation, and then a Medaka fan pops in and gets upset. You can't post anything critical of Medaka without this defense showing up. And basically, what Medaka fans post it isn't even intended to be interesting. You aren't rolling the ideas around your and trying to think over the interpretation, saying interesting things like it may be this or it may be that. If she isn't your favorite character then it sure is really strange how you take critiques of Medaka as insulting and personal, and then you attempt to share the wealth of your inner turmoil.

Thank you for calling my desires 'degenerate' by the way. I hope it makes me a little bit more interesting as a person, since most of the time life is pretty boring. I also liked Ichi the Killer which I thought was an incredible work of art. It was full of jollies I assure you.

The whole insulting people thing is pretty cliche, and it's even started influencing my posts when I respond and I'm having to reel it in. I started doing it some and then I realized that was not my modus operandi when I started writing this post. When I first started seeing the Medaka fan posts, I got a bad taste in my mouth real quick because of all the trolling insults, low blows and just overly defensive bias. I can tell real quick how someone operates when all they do is throw insults and they never concede a point.

I find analyzing the unexpected, diverse and even dark parts of characters interesting. Even more so if they betray our expectations. That is one of the best ways to create drama.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You are making an equally large presumption in calling Medaka a parody. I'll explain to you here what the conceptual opposition between Medaka and Ajimu is, then. Ajimu pursues equality, the equality of all humans. The Flask Plan is meant to erase all differences in ability in humans such that the necessity for effort and skill in acquiring favoured outcomes becomes irrelevant. Ajimu's is a perspective which acknowledges the arbitrary tyranny of differences in natural ability.
I pretty much agree with what you're saying. Here, I'll clarify. Medaka isn't JUST a parody. She also has other traits which make her more interesting. I'm not insulting her by calling her a parody. I'm just calling out the intentions of the mangaka. But just because Medaka's character is satire doesn't mean that she is a joke which is what I think you're getting out of this which is why you keep reacting to the word. I am little hinting a bit that sometimes she is meant to seem sometimes ridiculous, but that is usually covered up by how things work out for her in the end. One way our expectations are betrayed is when she does something that relies on a false belief and it ends up working because of her false belief, which sort of proves it wasn't a false belief doesn't it? I think Nishio is commenting on and analyzing her parody rather than outright mocking it. Medaka generally isn't being put in situations that would make her look ridiculous. She is an ideal taken to the extreme.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka is someone whose existence most blatantly demonstrates the tyranny which Ajimu is fighting against. Medaka is arbitrary perfection/victory in the absolute. So Ajimu's immediate objective is to artificially empower a human beyond the wall of Medaka's victory. Her ultimate intention is the impossibility of raising every human to that same uniform level.

Medaka's perspective, in contrast, is one that flatly denies the existence of such absolute differences in ability. Despite being the singular embodiment of perfect victory, Medaka's own impossible objective is to prove that all humans are already equal. Beyond the delusion Medaka asserted to the Chairman when she was first invited into the Flask Plan, Medaka's position has evolved into an awareness of her own ability, but a belief nonetheless in the idea that effort and cooperation will allow a person to surpass any obstacle. Ultimately, Medaka's determination towards this idea reflects not any distanced philosophical belief, but a personal will arising from the experience and understanding she accumulated through her lifelong pursuit of relating with others.
I read all of this and I'm totally on board, except for the last sentence. My impression is that this isn't the result of experience. Maybe Zenkichi actually never failed in anything while he kept on trying and that influenced her beliefs. She's never really seen someone try and fail before, literally incapable? I highly doubt that, and we're talking about someone with a perfect eidetic memory and who has filed away more information in her brain than would be normally possible. No, at this point, I believe she is making a decision and sticking to it. Was she born to save people? Well, you can't read that out of a book or find that in a formula. Although you can take the actions to prove it She simply believes it and sticks to it. That's not the only thing that she does that with. Not all of her absolute beliefs are healthy, and that was precisely the point I was trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It says something that as their arcs unfolded I've become a fan of each of Medaka's "enemies", and remain so even after the fact. That is indeed the high level of discourse at which Medaka Box's narrative at its best operates. However, it is precisely this fact which makes the idea of Medaka herself being a "parody" ridiculous. She has withstood numerous deconstructions, each one more correct and compelling than the last. A character which can stand even with such substantial and compelling personalities as Unzen Myouri, Kumogawa Misogi, Ajimu Najimi can only certainly also be worth something genuinely substantial herself.
I don't think that her negative aspects were ever really taken apart and revealed through those situation. Her opponents were more nit picked on. We had a window into sometimes her inner darkness behind the shell of the paragon, but the paragon itself was never challenged.

And the whole 'geniunely substantial' thing is just laying your bias bare. Nobody said she wasn't a substantial character. Nobody said she wasn't interesting. In fact, I've been saying the contrary.

The negative thing I've been hearing about her recently is how she acted in essentially a manner which came off as cold and callous to her oldest friend.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. Your blatantly subjective identification with Zen and moral condemnation of Medaka sure don't scream out "parody". There sure is a paradoxical element to Medaka tendency towards impersonal brutality, but that's what makes it so entertaining and satisfying that Medaka is actually right. Is it a parody that Medaka beat up Zen? Hell yeah! That's the reason why I'm laughing while it's the people who insist that Medaka was "wrong" who are not.
You can disagree with me on this, but with forbidden god mode Medaka was supposed to be weaker than Zenkichi. That's the translation says, weaker than her opponent. Zenkichi did not go into the fight with her without hesitation or doubt or restraint. He's still in love with her, and trying for so long to protect her is not an easy habit to break. He has very strong feelings for her. I knew before I saw 118 that there was no way you were going to see Zenkichi preaching over a bloody Medaka. Ended up, she didn't even have a bruise.

Zenkichi getting manhandled like that by Medaka, even if this was the result of him going through with this plan.. That's just too much. He would not have been mentally prepared at the time. That must have felt horrible in so many ways. He's loved her for so long. He's known her for so long, even taken bathes with her as a child. He's spent most of his life with her and openly admitted that he loves her. Spending all that time with her, being lead around by her that whole time and knowing you are at ground zero and you had always been there. Man, that is really really disheartening. When Nishio had him just sit there quietly with that look on his face, that was just the right reaction.

You don't feel anything for a person in that situation? I wouldn't treat my oldest friend that way, and I wouldn't like to be treated that way in that situation. That's a big reason why the Medaka fans are turning me off, because man that is pretty cruel and cold. Even if what Medaka did was the right thing, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.



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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Sure. But you're not even talking about Medaka's ideals in half your examples. The fact that Medaka's positive and self-deterministic ideals go so far against her reality is indeed what makes her interesting, but what you've apparently missed is that it is Medaka's situation that makes her inconsistent with her ideals. Medaka is completely consistent with her ideals to the extent that she expresses and actually acts on them. It is because Medaka believes that she is not special, and that everyone is her equal, that she is never hides or takes pity or goes easy or make exceptions for anybody as she pursues what she believes is right.
Well, that list wasn't meant to be a verbatim copy of what she was saying. I was trying to point out the ironies in her behavior. Some of those things were her actual credos, but many of them were observations.

For instance, if you know you aren't right, but you decide to try to be right, where do you get off feeling justified pushing your incorrect beliefs on others. She believes that she isn't ever right; I remember reading that somewhere. She tries anyway, which i think was in a location in the manga. I look at her actions and i see her do something which seems inconsistent to me.

I think that's one of the pivotal parts of her character. Zenkichi put it best -- "She's so smart that she passed back into stupid"


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
And Kikaijima's conversation with Medaka was intended to reveal Medaka's real motivations. Your rage at Zenkichi's "mistreatment" is completely pointless when it was actually an expression of Medaka's appreciation and support. Your reactions can hardly even be called a "rapport" with Zen because they are hardly even in sync with Zenkichi's real feelings. That is less empathy than it is projection.
No, it was empathy. I just explained above. The rapport part would be identifying with his position. I sat there and tried to emote out how he felt. And I knew, man that sucks.

Her appreciation and support? Ok, ok, I'll bite.. Maybe you could say in some sadistic way that it is support; you know, beat him up to make him stronger. And honestly, those are her intentions. Again, that is something that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Maybe it'll work out for the best, but what an ugly thing to do. And, I'm not saying it will end up for the best. And what about the manipulative aspects of doing that?

It chucks the relationship dynamics out the window. That's why I call this 'inhuman' or question the humanity of what she did. Human beings are capable of killing small animals for pleasure, but I call that an inhuman act.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, not really. Medaka beat Zen up and pushed him to stand firm on his path after he decided he'd man up and stop making himself a sacrifice. That's Medaka tossing everything in their past away, yes. That's her doing it after she realized it was useless, and learned that Zenkichi himself knew it was useless too. The opener to chapter 118 said it: "Instead of a peaceful yesterday, towards a correct tomorrow". That goes for Medaka and Zenkichi both. The persistent butthurtedness of "some" readers over the outcome of their past relationship is what's truly missing the point.
You're attributing to Medaka what really should be attributed to Ajimu. This is Ajimu's plan. She's not hiding what she's thinking. She thought it would be more interesting. Maybe later on she'll say that she thought it was the better thing for him to do, but it seems like a real switch from the possessiveness that she had beforehand. But then again, what he was doing was a real switch too.

What we have here is two contexts. We have Medaka's ideals and we have Zenkichi who is just a normal person who cares about other people more than most people do.

We have someone who is trying to make everyone in the world happy. We have someone who if they saw someone sad they would try to make them happy.

We have someone who prioritizes the 'right' thing. We have someone who understands the world through an empathic set of immediate relationships.

Generally, these two contexts will reach the same conclusion; well, if you're talking about Medaka's version of right, which is to make everyone happy. But that's not necessarily the case.

What happened was that Zenkichi stepped off the path of being 'right' for a bit, and then Medaka stepped way off the path of relationships.

Look, it's hard for me to emphasize with someone who backhands someone else because they were frustrated with them. I can understand it, but it's not justified. He didn't betray all of her expectations and his promises.. He was just having a moment of uncharacteristic weakness..

It denies the history between them.

She hit him, told him that he was a failure, and essentially said "Go do this but I don't care if you do it or don't do it." The last part was to bring home the first part of what she was saying; he was inconsequential.

Whoa, that's cold.

Ok, I'll play along. Maybe she was doing this to help him out. Wow, couldn't you have done it in another way. Maybe with a little better timing?

So I get the impression that at least at that point, she was just expressing herself.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Zenkichi will never become Medaka's permanent peer as far as real ability. Both Medaka and Ajimu's dreams are destined to fail; the persistent truth in this reality will be that some people are better than others. What anybody will need to form a real relationship with Medaka will be to come to genuinely believe in her ideal, that's all. And that's not impossible at all, because as you've pointed out earlier, Medaka has some of the very best ideals that there are out there.
I mean I hope he doesn't become her peer in ability, or at least if he does then he doesn't do things in the same way she does... It would be really boring for him to be 'The End' holder no. 2... You know, the one driven insane by the dark beast inside?


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's pretty presumptuous to go out and decide what constitutes "our" humanity, isn't it? The range of human experience is a pretty wide space. Medaka had been indebted to Zenkichi for 13 years. Wasn't it time to, as Ajimu Najimi says, stop being "held back" by him? If neither Medaka nor Zenkichi ever really understood each other, why should they place any weight on or hold onto that history? The effort and loyalty Zenkichi put into his relationship with Medaka, the effort and loyalty Medaka also put into her relationship with Zenkichi, it has certainly been long enough that they should be allowed to expire. Who the hell wants to live chained/burdened by a promise and relationship which was created when they were 2 yrs old?
I don't think Medaka has ever felt indebted to Zenkichi. That was the whole point. I was illustrating their history and what there is about her that ironically separates her from normal people.

There is no promise here. There is no burden here.

There is a one way attachment. There is a one way bond. That's it. It's really sad for Zenkichi. Medaka is not at a loss here. Maybe there is some profound change that will happen in Medaka that will happen since Zenkichi isn't there, but it isn't going to be a sad or disheartening thing. In Zenkichi's case, it is. In many ways, he wasted his life. And he was influenced by Medaka's magic aura. Let's not discount that. Most people can't resist her personality and influence. He's much more resistant than other people, but she wanted him around her and she got what she wanted. I think the whole thing is going to end on a better note, but at this point it's sad. It obviously meant something to him that it didn't mean to her. It's loss and it's disappointment and a myriad of other things. Of course, Zenkichi is pretty good at bouncing back so he seemed to be ok after waking up in that hospital bed.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yet another one letting the distinction completely pass them by. To Medaka, there certainly are people whom she is "fond of". That used to be Zenkichi, that stopped when she found out how much their past "understanding" was really worth. Now it's Zenkichi again as he's decided to actually stand up to her. To Medaka, there is a distinction between what is objectively "special" and personally "liked". To help you with the distinction, consider first that it is possible for "liked" things to still be fallible. At the time that Kikaijima was asking her, Zenkichi certainly was "unique" to Medaka in that she actually liked him. It's just that Medaka expressed that "like" by beating him brutally (while knowing he could take it) as opposed to going easy on him in a way that Kikaijima perhaps expected.
Kikaijima runs after Medaka asks if Zenkichi is special to her, and she replies that no one is special. I'm assuming the meaning here is closer to precious.

It doesn't make any sense for Kikaijima to run after Medaka and ask her, "Don't you find that person extraordinary?" Like how could you beat up a statesman of that caliber or something? That's not what she's asking. She's asking, is that person precious to you? And Medaka replies, there is nobody who is an exception when it comes to me, everybody is equal. She's indirectly saying that he isn't precious to her.

She's openly admitted that she won't belong to one man or person. She applies her ideals pretty consistently.

Alot of things come from that. Her friends are no special exception. It works out well for her enemies, but Medaka has no loyalty to the people who stick to her. You'd better not have a bad day or a crisis. I talked about some of these other points, and from the social instincts that people have these implications of Medaka's ideals become disturbing. Most people don't articulate it in the same way I do, but they understand it and feel it right away.

Now, I think you're right mostly about what she was doing, but you try to pull my leg when it comes to your habit of defending Medaka. At that point, she was doing it because she thought the whole thing was interesting and great. She was also impressed that he had decided to do it, which actually make me laugh the first I read it (since it was like Ajimu had read the situation like a book and the situation was sort of ridiculous). And she went through with it. She just basically disregarded all the little things I've been talking about that make that behavior of hers disturbing.

This is a bit of an exaggerated comparison, but it's sort of like when you shoot an animal to put it out of its misery. Maybe it was the right thing to do, but it will leave a sour taste in your mouth.. Furthermore, it is not something you shouldn't do gleefully. You shouldn't start scouring the forest for wounded animals.

I love that this event happened. But, I'm not heartless enough to be able to dismiss the tragedy of Zenkichi's situation. He's the one experiencing the lion share of loss and difficulty in this, and he was carrying the lion share of it in their previous relationship.

Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2011-10-27 at 02:12.
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Old 2011-10-27, 01:27   Link #5054
DawnEmperor
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Hello, I'm new to Animesuki. Got interested because of the varying opinions of Medaka Box fans. Personally, I think the recent Zenkichi vs Medaka arc is too reliant on absolutes. Is Medaka wrong for beating ruthlessly on Zenkichi? In my personal opinion, yes. It's a warped take on the whole "Defeat equals Friendship" approach. On the other hand, that's been Medaka's primary strategy for the course of this manga, which is somewhat understandable since she's an abnormal. The truth is, we don't know exactly what Medaka wants. Yes, Kikaijima and Unzen say that she just wants friends, but what does friendship mean to her? Because we all have different definitions.

Zenkichi is not blameless. I admit that I'm a Zen fan, but his character has often been boiled down to "guy who wants to protect" Medaka even though he has other traits. His overreaction at the end of the treasure hunt arc is both understandable and childish. I admit that. Sometimes he fluctuates between a tolerant guy and a stubborn one. Blaming Kumagawa didn't solve anything (though it seemed more like just an aspect of their vitriolic best buds relationship). But we're trying to project too many things onto characters. Every character has their own opinion. Even Zenkichi, who is often the narrator won't be completely honest.

Overall, I can say that this puts Medaka's and Zenkichi's flaws in perspective (whatever you may find them to be). Sorry for this brain vomit.
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Old 2011-10-27, 02:55   Link #5055
SockMonster
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First off, I would like to say hello and that I am also new to the forums. I have been stalking this thread for quite a while and I have finally decided to join the conversation. What caused me to jump into this (on my first post now doubt) is a comment about Zen. The comment by Endscape stating:

" She [Medaka] didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be."

This and the idea that Zen was too busy being Medaka's "pitbull" came off wrong to me not because I am a die-hard hard of Zen, but because it defies the position that Zen has been in from the very beginning. What makes the falling apart of Zen's ideals and relationship with Medaka extra messed up is the fact that he tried really hard to avoid all of this from the start.

In chapter 1, Zen REPEATEDLY refused to join the student council. When he is asked by Shiranui if he was going to join. He saids " As if! Like I can handle being messed around by her anymore."
This implies that, not only did Zen see the flaws in the relationship , but he tried to give it up and move on with his life. The whole first chapter (and some after that) was about how ridiculous he thought Medaka was and how he didn't want to deal with that anymore. So why did he stay?

Because Medaka said she needed him. Not figuratively either. She continued to bug him to death to join the student council and when he tried to tell her how much she didn't need him and how much trouble (emotionally and physically) it was for him, she still said "I need you and I just want you by my side." Reread chapter 1 and, interestedly enough, your pretty much seeing the same conflicts in recent chaps:


1. Zen was never in this because he "wanted" to be. Though it has not been acted upon since the weird genre shift, Zen had always been in the position of the "poor sane person swiped up in crazy situations". For most of this manga, Zen was dragged into each arc and every time he tried to get back some sanity in his life, something stupid happened.


2. Zen was in it because Medaka said she needed him. The fact that Medaka was convinced that Zen was needed (or at least made it seem she was convinced) and claimed that she had never been challenged before as she did with her student council duties portrayed that she was in a sort of trouble. Despite the fact that HE knew she didn't need him, Zen helped and gave up a peaceful life he could have had if he ignored her. When you REALLY care for/love someone, you'll try to help them out in their time of distress even if it is not to your advantage or even a waste of time (like protecting a kid from the "boogieman"). For some strange twisted reason, Zen thought he was doing Medaka a favor and giving a sense of security that he could only give. Whither it was Medaka herself or some else (for example Maguro in the Flask Plan arc), Zen was always being told he was needed by Medaka for reasons stated above. This has and still is (in my own opinion) the reason why Zen stayed (though we all know that this was wrong in so many ways).

I understand Medaka doesn't understand people and I also understand that Zen has many faults in his thought process as well. My Zen pity does not come from the idea of who is a victim or not. It comes from the blunt lack of consideration and appreciation for Zen's life in these chapters. It's like someone calling you for help because they had an accident only to find out they had a minor limp and wanted you to pick up a soda when you could have been going to your job interview that you canceled because you thought they were on their death bed.

Like some else said, it seemed like all of Zen's work (and concern) was a waste of time and that is all types of depressing.
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Old 2011-10-27, 03:20   Link #5056
MD84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SockMonster View Post
First off, I would like to say hello and that I am also new to the forums. I have been stalking this thread for quite a while and I have finally decided to join the conversation. What caused me to jump into this (on my first post now doubt) is a comment about Zen. The comment by Endscape stating:

" She [Medaka] didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be."

This and the idea that Zen was too busy being Medaka's "pitbull" came off wrong to me not because I am a die-hard hard of Zen, but because it defies the position that Zen has been in from the very beginning. What makes the falling apart of Zen's ideals and relationship with Medaka extra messed up is the fact that he tried really hard to avoid all of this from the start.

In chapter 1, Zen REPEATEDLY refused to join the student council. When he is asked by Shiranui if he was going to join. He saids " As if! Like I can handle being messed around by her anymore."
This implies that, not only did Zen see the flaws in the relationship , but he tried to give it up and move on with his life. The whole first chapter (and some after that) was about how ridiculous he thought Medaka was and how he didn't want to deal with that anymore. So why did he stay?

Because Medaka said she needed him. Not figuratively either. She continued to bug him to death to join the student council and when he tried to tell her how much she didn't need him and how much trouble (emotionally and physically) it was for him, she still said "I need you and I just want you by my side." Reread chapter 1 and, interestedly enough, your pretty much seeing the same conflicts in recent chaps:


1. Zen was never in this because he "wanted" to be. Though it has not been acted upon since the weird genre shift, Zen had always been in the position of the "poor sane person swiped up in crazy situations". For most of this manga, Zen was dragged into each arc and every time he tried to get back some sanity in his life, something stupid happened.


2. Zen was in it because Medaka said she needed him. The fact that Medaka was convinced that Zen was needed (or at least made it seem she was convinced) and claimed that she had never been challenged before as she did with her student council duties portrayed that she was in a sort of trouble. Despite the fact that HE knew she didn't need him, Zen helped and gave up a peaceful life he could have had if he ignored her. When you REALLY care for/love someone, you'll try to help them out in their time of distress even if it is not to your advantage or even a waste of time (like protecting a kid from the "boogieman"). For some strange twisted reason, Zen thought he was doing Medaka a favor and giving a sense of security that he could only give. Whither it was Medaka herself or some else (for example Maguro in the Flask Plan arc), Zen was always being told he was needed by Medaka for reasons stated above. This has and still is (in my own opinion) the reason why Zen stayed (though we all know that this was wrong in so many ways).

I understand Medaka doesn't understand people and I also understand that Zen has many faults in his thought process as well. My Zen pity does not come from the idea of who is a victim or not. It comes from the blunt lack of consideration and appreciation for Zen's life in these chapters. It's like someone calling you for help because they had an accident only to find out they had a minor limp and wanted you to pick up a soda when you could have been going to your job interview that you canceled because you thought they were on their death bed.

Like some else said, it seemed like all of Zen's work (and concern) was a waste of time and that is all types of depressing.
So essentially, the conflict between Medaka and Zenkichi was always there. Pre-genre-shift, it was played for comedy, now it's being played for drama.

One difference is that Zenkichi actually wants to be by Medaka's side instead of getting as far away from her as possible -- which honestly probably would be the most intelligent choice -- it's just that the situation is so abnormal that he can best do this by becoming her opponent. There probably are other, more peaceful, ways he could do it, but Ajimu already told Zenkichi that she would prevent him from finding another way.

The involvement of a manipulative centuries-old immortal who sees all humans and human ideals as dust doesn't help matters at all. While readers probably shouldn't take everything she says as gospel, since she's a villain, everything she said about the cracks in Medaka/Zenkichi's "bond" was spot on. It wouldn't have been so easy for her to break them up otherwise.

I still think Zenkichi joining the Flask Plan was a bad idea just because he's doing what Ajimu wanted him to do. Deals like this never turn out well because the people offering them never have anyone else's best interests in mind.
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Old 2011-10-27, 03:27   Link #5057
Soji
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Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
So essentially, the conflict between Medaka and Zenkichi was always there. Pre-genre-shift, it was played for comedy, now it's being played for drama.

One difference is that Zenkichi actually wants to be by Medaka's side instead of getting as far away from her as possible -- which honestly probably would be the most intelligent choice -- it's just that the situation is so abnormal that he can best do this by becoming her opponent. There probably are other, more peaceful, ways he could do it, but Ajimu already told Zenkichi that she would prevent him from finding another way.

The involvement of a manipulative centuries-old immortal who sees all humans and human ideals as dust doesn't help matters at all. While readers probably shouldn't take everything she says as gospel, since she's a villain, everything she said about the cracks in Medaka/Zenkichi's "bond" was spot on. It wouldn't have been so easy for her to break them up otherwise.

I still think Zenkichi joining the Flask Plan was a bad idea just because he's doing what Ajimu wanted him to do. Deals like this never turn out well because the people offering them never have anyone else's best interests in mind.
True, but you forget that there is something else in the deal.
Najimi told Zen that if he accepted to be the test subject of the flank plan and sacrificed his normality in this project, no other student would be used as a guinea pig.
So Zen choice was not only for be with medaka (even if that's what he said) but also to prevent other students to end up victims of the Flank plan.
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Old 2011-10-27, 04:03   Link #5058
MD84
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True, but you forget that there is something else in the deal.
Najimi told Zen that if he accepted to be the test subject of the flank plan and sacrificed his normality in this project, no other student would be used as a guinea pig.
So Zen choice was not only for be with medaka (even if that's what he said) but also to prevent other students to end up victims of the Flank plan.
Assuming of course Ajimu isn't lying when she said that Zenkichi would be the final test subject of the Flask Plan. Of course, she has been setting him up for this ever since she first appeared in the series nearly fifty chapters ago. Come to think of it, the Plan was already set in motion when Ajimu gave him "Parasite Eyes". By giving him that Abnormal ability, Ajimu started the process of modifying Zenkichi. So maybe she really doesn't need any other subjects since the guy she had picked from day one to be her guinea pig finally took her offer.
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Old 2011-10-27, 04:11   Link #5059
Moe Connection
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It was always just a matter of time until the Flask Plan was reactivated. It's just a matter of how long. Zen participating in the Flask Plan is different from becoming evil, because no one except himself will be used as a guinea pig for now, and he has vowed to destroy the plan after he is finished with it.
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Old 2011-10-27, 04:23   Link #5060
MD84
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
It was always just a matter of time until the Flask Plan was reactivated. It's just a matter of how long. Zen participating in the Flask Plan is different from becoming evil, because no one except himself will be used as a guinea pig for now, and he has vowed to destroy the plan after he is finished with it.
While Zenkichi isn't becoming evil, he is doing exactly what an evil person wants him to do, and that rarely works out well in the long run. It's understandable -- love does make people do stupid and crazy things in real life too.
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