2011-10-26, 20:27 | Link #5041 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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...Hmmm
I can't tell how this'll go. It's looks like it's set up for yet another Medaka victory, but I can't really tell. If I had to guess on the outcome, I'd say when they face off it'll end in one of two ways 1. Zenkichi defeats her making Medaka appreciate him, earning him back his place at her side. 2. Medaka defeats him, but stays the same instead of reforming like her other enemies. (I seriously doubt losing to Medaka would end in him returning to her side as if nothing happened) |
2011-10-26, 21:01 | Link #5042 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Just ignored that huh? It's not that what Zenkichi was doing was bad. It was that what he was doing was never going to work, because Medaka is abnormal. What he was doing essentially telegraphing that, yes, he didn't understand her. Neither does she understand him. Neither does she really genuinely understand anybody or anybody else her. He wants a special relationship with her. She doesn't acknowledge special people or relationships exist (the second part inferred from the first, and her behavior). She pulls him as a tag-along for 95% of their lives as long as she finds him interesting. He does what would NORMALLY work to create a special relationship with her. He supports her even though he sometimes disagrees with her. He tries to protect her too. She just sees him as a rare oddity. Remember how she was kissing everybody before the beginning of the manga? That's just one example, but that's not the only area where she is clueless about people or when she screws up with people in a big way. Unzen also mentioned that she was going to make normal people miserable in that same Soliloquy that she called her lonely. What are you going to say? That's just her nature, so the resulting actions were not her fault? It's Zenkichi's fault because he wasn't trying hard enough or he wasn't smart enough to figure it out? Because he was trying to do things too normally? He's still trying! He's changing. Ajimu said Medaka had become the "person who breaks bonds!" He's trying to make bonds, but he's in a stupid situation. Quote:
Getting back to the 'flask plan' point, Zenkichi would stop a massacre of the students as much as anybody else. If Ajimu hadn't prefaced the whole thing by saying the only sacrifice would be him. He wouldn't have done it otherwise. I don't even consider myself a 'Zenkichi fan', but I can recognize what you're saying is ridiculous. He's not doing anything wrong at all. He's just defying Medaka. The only tipping point may be the willingness to do anything and the fact that we're not clear what sort of entity Ajimu is. Quote:
I already wrote about this in many many ways. She is not a needy person. She is not lonely in the sense that normal people are lonely. She doesn't need anybody else's approval. She doesn't need anybody. At some level, she may want someone special in her life but she doesn't acknowledge such people exist. Medaka is a person with a broken personality, but she's not a lonely person in the traditional sense. She's too strong to be lonely. But, she is an alone person. But if you mean that she's keeping herself from a whole bunch of wonderful things like relationships with 'special' people, that's absolutely true. She's also harmful to herself like this. Zenkichi will probably end up saving her from this part of herself. Quote:
He's tried. He's failed. He loves Medaka. He was spinning on a self-destructive course when his belief system had been taken out from under him. He values her but she doesn't value him. He needed someone and that person ended up being Ajimu, and those rooftop supporters. He was also basically stuck in really a disheartening situation where he would have never been able to start a romantic relationship with Medaka. His childhood friend just dismissed him because he had a moment of weakness. All those times were meaningful to him, but they weren't meaningful to Medaka. He was her accessory. Fault? It's about sympathy. Someone trying but being stupid but genuine is going to engender my pity. Someone being distant and cold to that person will annoy me. People aren't really faulting Medaka.. They're upset at her. I wrote out quite a bit in that last post explaining why. Zenkichi is not perfect or superhuman. Zenkichi also contradicts himself by saying he understands her best at the beginning of the manga, and then he has an epiphany where he mentions that nobody really has tried to understand Medaka. In other words, he did think he understood her, then he realized he didn't. Zenkichi is trying and he's failing, but Medaka is also something along the lines of the definition of an impossible challenge. He needs god (Ajimu) to even make this possible. Personal relationships are not where Medaka shines, and Zenkichi does substantially better in this area. But then again, she was heartlessly taking everyone's first kiss (which is supposed to be special) because it sounded like a good idea to her. If it makes you feel better to defend this imaginary person's honor, she does better at everywhere else... *Shrug* Quote:
Contrast this to how Zenkichi helped Emukae. He understood her and then said he couldn't stand someone suffering like that. Essentially, he understood her and then told her what she needed to her. Medaka would have helped her too, but she would have steamrolled over her and forced her to become a better person, basically. You probably would have even had the same results, but there is someone subtly unsatisfying about how Medaka does things. But that refusal to understand people doesn't just come out as good things. That's the part of the story we're getting into. Nobody at this point can understand her and also that she cannot and will not change. She changes other people. The ONLY exception to this is Zenkichi, who managed to change her. Can he now learn to understand her and take that to the next step? We'll see. Quote:
You know, I like her character. I also like Zenkichi. I have a feeling I'm going to love this conflict. But when Medaka does something wrong, I'm not going to get upset.... I'm going to get excited because something interesting is finally happening. I want to know what this 'beast' inside of her exactly is. I want to know more about that dark and ominous nature she seems to be suppressing. That's the very first thing Zenkichi denied when he first met her. If Zenkichi is going to understand her, that's going to be what I think he might have to learn to understand... And he's going to still love her anyway... It's going to be interesting how she reacts to that. Quote:
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We see that she would be happier with genuine relationships. That's true. We see that she'd probably be happier if she were capable of returning Zenkichi's love or anybody's for that matter. We see that she'd probably be happier if she could just sit down and talk with people on the same level without preaching to them or having some cause. But she doesn't need it. Not like how most people need it. She's not needy like how we're all needy for attention in our lives.. I mean like how you want your friends attention... Or perhaps how you want your parent's attention? Or perhaps the attention of some significant other. She is far too independent and strong in terms of personality and mind to ever need that. Period. She's got the personality of the perfect invincible leader. Quote:
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that he has tried to understand her but he failed miserably for the same reason Medaka failed to understand him. They speak different languages (a normal caring person vs. ideals), and so they may be on the same side generally but their motivations come from different sources. He's showing affection. He means it. He's doing it for her, and not for some ideal that he's supposed to save all people. If you're going to just brush that off, then I don't know to say. He's failed, but he's tried. He's tried and failed on that topic more than anybody else. After a point, he just came to accept her. I thought accepting people was a good trait, not a bad one? Honestly, I'm being a bit facetious there. The point is that he's treated her with affection, support and the whole enchilada. He's been trying, but he's been failing. She doesn't understand the significant of the stuff he does. Like the whole, telling her that he loves her wasn't really a significant thing to her. After all, he isn't special and she loves everybody. If he loves her, what's the big deal? She helps people; if he's trying to help her, how is that special? After all, under her motto, SHE ISN'T SPECIAL EITHER. That last part is interesting isn't it? Talk about needing to be saved from yourself, eh? Since she isn't special, how would Zenkichi treating her specially be significant? Hmm? Quote:
On a side note, that's probably a subtle hint of Zenkichi's old method of operation. He would keep on trying and he would keep on failing, even when it came to getting away from Medaka who he recognized as an unhealthy influence at some point. Quote:
As for their unhealthy relationship, that was a good healthy dose of foreshadowing! Quote:
Oh, well, I guess Zenkichi's abuse of Medaka started when they were two and he convinced her that life wasn't meaningless. It then progressed to him playing with her and giving her flowers as children. Very abusive. It later progressed into a single-minded love, loyalty and support of her. Oh, and then when she had finally gotten better and turned into Medaka II... Well, he just couldn't let things be and let her become the miserable self-centered abomination of evil she'd always wanted to be. Sigh, some people. Quote:
But, yeah, I'm hoping for the both of them to have a romantic relationship. Quote:
Well, I don't know what the source of this idea that Medaka somehow needs anybody. She doesn't. She is the perfectly strong and healthy mentally, physically, and emotionally. She has the personality of a undefeated king. It's like you're just repeating some Hallmark card platitude to me here and I'm supposed to just believe it. The reason why she is not needy is because she is so incredibly strong in every way. People need her, but it doesn't work the other way around. This is also one of the reasons why she doesn't understand normal people. This has become an integral part of her character. Now, during the first set of chapters there were some hints that she might have a weaker side, but basically after that first part of the manga it totally disappeared. All I can basically say is that from how she's been acting for the past 80 or so chapters generally lacks any neediness or suggestion of vulnerability. After the flask plan progressed, it's like she became more and more inhuman. Maybe that was intentional character development. Now that I mention that.. It's one reason why I seemed to enjoy the pilot and the earlier chapters more, but that's another topic. But basically, from what we see now, and what has been suggested, we're dealing with Medaka the invincible whose primary purpose is to accomplish the tasks she sets her mind to. Quote:
She is special to him. She is an important person to him. If he thought she needed help, he'd go out of the way because she was an important person to him. If she changed, he'd do something about it. He wouldn't do that for everybody. Either way, he's important to her and he's thinking about her. Quote:
And, uh, I don't recommend you go around whacking people from behind, especially your friends and family, when they act uncool and weak. Even if they are your friend of 13 years and they'll probably forgive you. I'd suggest you try to understand them in their moments of weakness. At least, that's what I try to do and it works pretty well for keeping stupid conflicts and abuse to a minimum. Does the bias have any limits? It's like warping your perception of what's ok and not ok in normal situations. Quote:
As for the whole him trying to be special, you're just wrong. He was having a mid-character crisis. Read what he said in the interview with one of the not-equals before that arc. It was saying it was ruining his life, and then him and Ajimu had a conversation admitting the whole thing was really a set up on her part. You're just ignoring that entire scene with him talking to Ajimu, the interview with the not-equal, and his comments on how having the parasite eyes changed his life. Did you skip over those scenes because Medaka wasn't in them? Quote:
Was he trying to be better than anybody else? Oh, come on, it's laughable that you even suggest it. You're not even trying to understand his character or position. Are you being serious with me? He was trying to prove something to himself. How would solving the puzzle that someone else solved in a second show that he was better than that person? It doesn't make any sense. You aren't even trying to make any sense. It was purely about an issue that Ajimu set into motion. The reason why he was freaking out afterwards is because he didn't want to admit to himself that he failed.. That what he was trying to do was impossible for him to achieve. He was blaming Kumagawa because Kumagawa is the scariest, most manipulative and evil guy he knows. He's Zenkichi's boogeyman. Literally, Kumagawa is something along the lines of Zenkichi's deepest fear and has emotionally scarred him for life. Kumagawa had nothing to do with anything; Zenkichi was venting his frustrations and denial. Which points out another thing that Medaka did that didn't take Zenkichi's feelings into consideration... She appointed Kumagawa the vice president. Ouch. She asked in a "I'd know you're a good enough person to accept' sort of baiting way, but we're talking about the guy that Zenkichi got into a deathmatch with and used to make him shiver uncontrollably. Not exactly a high level of empathy for the situation here on Medaka's part. Quote:
She hangs out with lots of people. She hangs out with Kumagawa which is a far worse degenerate. Everybody is equal to her. Nobody is special. Quote:
It's like now you have a vendetta against Zenkichi because he's in such a pitiful situation that it makes Medaka look bad. I honestly don't know what to say. You're obviously being sarcastic, but seriously... Do you treat your lifetime friends who are loyal to you and care about you like trash? You ignored everything that I wrote. |
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2011-10-26, 21:21 | Link #5043 | ||
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I do agree that it's wrong to pin all of the blame on Medaka for their current relationship problems. She can't help being an Abnormal that can only reach mutual understanding with others through conflict. Zenkichi himself realizes in chapter 117 that he is mostly to blame, and that's why he's trying to change. He's becoming Medaka's enemy because it's the only way she will be able to understand him -- "for Medaka, fighting and confronting other people is part of a process of understanding". Quote:
As for why her biggest adversaries in the series haven't tried to fight her again? It's because they know they can't win. Unzen notably still doesn't agree with her, he just knows fighting her is pointless. Oudo was outright terrified of Medaka's "The End" abnormality, which nearly killed him when he tried to take it. It's less a "friendly mutual relationship of self-determination and respect" and more a case of staying the heck out of her way. They do have some respect for her though, as seen when they cheer her on during her battle with Kumagawa. What you said does hold true for Kumagawa, though it notably didn't work the first time she beat him up in middle school. |
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2011-10-26, 22:41 | Link #5044 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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Kind of off topic. Kinda not.
On weekly shonen jump's official website, there is what appears to be a commemoration for the anime by having the 4 top ranked battles/best ranked chapters (something like that) online to read. 4th: Zenkichi vs Munakata 3rd: Naze vs minus boob chick (forgot her name~) 2nd: Kumagawa vs the not equal girls 1st: Zenkichi vs Kumagawa yep. carry on with your insanely long comments. Last edited by [HearT]; 2011-10-26 at 23:44. |
2011-10-26, 23:20 | Link #5045 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Age: 33
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I'll agree with you that Zen probably will help with that. Quote:
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But that refusal to understand people doesn't just come out as good things. That's the part of the story we're getting into. Quote:
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But feel free to continue being facetious, I'm sure someone somewhere found it funny. Quote:
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Does the bias have any limits? It's like warping your perception of what's ok and not ok in normal situations. Quote:
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2011-10-27, 00:45 | Link #5046 |
Basileus Basileōn
Join Date: Jan 2011
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There's only one thing I would like to say about Medaka. She's simply wrong because she's unappreciative of Zen's efforts and devotion. Zen tried, but failed, but there's nothing wrong about trying. I don't understand the logic behind the Medaka-fans' arguments. You desperately try to say that it was wrong from both sides of the relationship, yes, that is correct, but ultimately, he did everything for Medaka. The Medaka fans are claiming that to be another individual's friend, you have to understand them clearly whatsoever--claiming that Zen's at fault because he did not understand Medaka. You people clearly have forgotten that Medaka's an abnormal and Zen's only a regular human, there's no way he could have ever truly apprehended Medaka's mentality, not even her siblings, most probably. It's like claiming a normal individual's at fault for not understanding a patient at a mental asylum. You claim that Zen's at fault because he's not trying hard enough to mend his 'friendship' with Medaka, but can anyone else do better? And what else could he have done? Like Medaka, you Medaka-fans took Zen's efforts for granted. You call his unwavering devotion a flaw, but how is trying to love another individual a flaw? None of the individuals within this series could have done more than Zen did for Medaka. He deserved praise, but his endeavour was ultimately trampled by Medaka.He's a normal, and he has performed above expectation for Medaka.Zen's devotion to Medaka is a privilege, not a right. Why does he have to put up with Medaka's antics, why does he have to put up with her nonsense? There's just a general lack of appreciation. You people criticized what Zen has done for Medaka, but in turn, what exactly has Medaka done for Zen? Medaka's disregard for Zen mars her as a hypocrite who tramples upon the ideal that she claims to have represented the whole time: that she respects those who strives for achievement.There's no way in hell I would want someone like Medaka to be my friend in real life.
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2011-10-27, 00:50 | Link #5047 | |
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2011-10-27, 00:51 | Link #5048 |
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Oh wow, these posts are getting long.
I think what a lot of people are doing is projecting onto Medaka, and thereby not understanding what so many of us find upsetting about her. That isn't to say some degree of projecting isn't good, as imagining ourself in another person's shoes is the first step to empathy; but what you guys are are assuming is that Medaka has shoes you can imagine yourself from. What I appreciate the mangaka has been illustrating in recent chapters, and has been done within the Watchmen comic book with regards to Dr. Manhattan, is that the idea of a Superman who psychologically identifies and relates himself with all of normal humanity is absurd. To use an analogy: I like my pet dog, I might call my dog a friend. But in reality he's a pet, and despite whatever offhand comment I make about my love for my dog I would honestly never consider him more than a pet. By extension, I don't rely on my pet like I would a friend, and only expect of him the ability to perform tricks, eat, sleep, and defecate. I certainly would never expect my pet to understand anything remotely complex about who I am, I am his owner and he probably only recognizes me as the primary person who plays with him and gives him treats. In return he offers me loyalty and a lesser form of companionship I would expect from a human. It's not that Medaka has been placed on a pedestal because of her superiority to normal humans and is thereby lonely. But rather Medaka -is- on a pedestal because of her superiority and thereby doesn't care about normal humans like normal humans would for one another. She can't empathize with humanity, and humanity can't empathize with her. Her love for humanity is that of an owner to his or her pet, it's unconditional and pure but ultimately it's also one-sided and uninvolved. |
2011-10-27, 00:58 | Link #5049 | ||||||||||||||||
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You've ignored a few of my points, but I'm going to respond to you fairly since you seem to have some interesting points.
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But yeah, Nishio is now trying to start edging us towards understanding Medaka better. We all acknowledge what Medaka's good points are. They're obvious, so they aren't really that interesting. Quote:
She hasn't given up on making everyone happy. Chapter 103 - 08 from eatmanga says that she has simply realized that it is an unrealizable pipe dream, but she intends to strive for it anyway. So, yeah, Zenkichi did his thing during the Flask Plan arc and it worked. Quote:
I'll disagree on this point about her deconstruction. We did have Medaka shown to not have always been the person that she was (childhood Medaka)... We also got to see who she could have been (Medaka II)... But we've never actually seen her be genuinely wrong in her 'normal' form. It's like how Medaka said that her previous fight with Zenkichi when he saved her from the brainwashing didn't count; well, that didn't count as a deconstruction of her 'normal' form. I don't recall a point where the paragon version of Medaka was ever really criticized in a way that stuck. Quote:
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When we get to see the flaws in Medaka's ideals or her character, I don't expect her to break down and become super evil... I expect that the main event will far more subtle and interesting. In Zenkichi's case, it's as simple as really callousness towards her oldest friend. She's not quite the shounen hero that is always loyal to her friends and what not. Quote:
I'm postulating about her. I'm forming theories. The Medaka fan posts irritate me because we're having a conversation, and then a Medaka fan pops in and gets upset. You can't post anything critical of Medaka without this defense showing up. And basically, what Medaka fans post it isn't even intended to be interesting. You aren't rolling the ideas around your and trying to think over the interpretation, saying interesting things like it may be this or it may be that. If she isn't your favorite character then it sure is really strange how you take critiques of Medaka as insulting and personal, and then you attempt to share the wealth of your inner turmoil. Thank you for calling my desires 'degenerate' by the way. I hope it makes me a little bit more interesting as a person, since most of the time life is pretty boring. I also liked Ichi the Killer which I thought was an incredible work of art. It was full of jollies I assure you. The whole insulting people thing is pretty cliche, and it's even started influencing my posts when I respond and I'm having to reel it in. I started doing it some and then I realized that was not my modus operandi when I started writing this post. When I first started seeing the Medaka fan posts, I got a bad taste in my mouth real quick because of all the trolling insults, low blows and just overly defensive bias. I can tell real quick how someone operates when all they do is throw insults and they never concede a point. I find analyzing the unexpected, diverse and even dark parts of characters interesting. Even more so if they betray our expectations. That is one of the best ways to create drama. Quote:
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And the whole 'geniunely substantial' thing is just laying your bias bare. Nobody said she wasn't a substantial character. Nobody said she wasn't interesting. In fact, I've been saying the contrary. The negative thing I've been hearing about her recently is how she acted in essentially a manner which came off as cold and callous to her oldest friend. Quote:
Zenkichi getting manhandled like that by Medaka, even if this was the result of him going through with this plan.. That's just too much. He would not have been mentally prepared at the time. That must have felt horrible in so many ways. He's loved her for so long. He's known her for so long, even taken bathes with her as a child. He's spent most of his life with her and openly admitted that he loves her. Spending all that time with her, being lead around by her that whole time and knowing you are at ground zero and you had always been there. Man, that is really really disheartening. When Nishio had him just sit there quietly with that look on his face, that was just the right reaction. You don't feel anything for a person in that situation? I wouldn't treat my oldest friend that way, and I wouldn't like to be treated that way in that situation. That's a big reason why the Medaka fans are turning me off, because man that is pretty cruel and cold. Even if what Medaka did was the right thing, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Quote:
For instance, if you know you aren't right, but you decide to try to be right, where do you get off feeling justified pushing your incorrect beliefs on others. She believes that she isn't ever right; I remember reading that somewhere. She tries anyway, which i think was in a location in the manga. I look at her actions and i see her do something which seems inconsistent to me. I think that's one of the pivotal parts of her character. Zenkichi put it best -- "She's so smart that she passed back into stupid" Quote:
Her appreciation and support? Ok, ok, I'll bite.. Maybe you could say in some sadistic way that it is support; you know, beat him up to make him stronger. And honestly, those are her intentions. Again, that is something that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Maybe it'll work out for the best, but what an ugly thing to do. And, I'm not saying it will end up for the best. And what about the manipulative aspects of doing that? It chucks the relationship dynamics out the window. That's why I call this 'inhuman' or question the humanity of what she did. Human beings are capable of killing small animals for pleasure, but I call that an inhuman act. Quote:
What we have here is two contexts. We have Medaka's ideals and we have Zenkichi who is just a normal person who cares about other people more than most people do. We have someone who is trying to make everyone in the world happy. We have someone who if they saw someone sad they would try to make them happy. We have someone who prioritizes the 'right' thing. We have someone who understands the world through an empathic set of immediate relationships. Generally, these two contexts will reach the same conclusion; well, if you're talking about Medaka's version of right, which is to make everyone happy. But that's not necessarily the case. What happened was that Zenkichi stepped off the path of being 'right' for a bit, and then Medaka stepped way off the path of relationships. Look, it's hard for me to emphasize with someone who backhands someone else because they were frustrated with them. I can understand it, but it's not justified. He didn't betray all of her expectations and his promises.. He was just having a moment of uncharacteristic weakness.. It denies the history between them. She hit him, told him that he was a failure, and essentially said "Go do this but I don't care if you do it or don't do it." The last part was to bring home the first part of what she was saying; he was inconsequential. Whoa, that's cold. Ok, I'll play along. Maybe she was doing this to help him out. Wow, couldn't you have done it in another way. Maybe with a little better timing? So I get the impression that at least at that point, she was just expressing herself. Quote:
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There is no promise here. There is no burden here. There is a one way attachment. There is a one way bond. That's it. It's really sad for Zenkichi. Medaka is not at a loss here. Maybe there is some profound change that will happen in Medaka that will happen since Zenkichi isn't there, but it isn't going to be a sad or disheartening thing. In Zenkichi's case, it is. In many ways, he wasted his life. And he was influenced by Medaka's magic aura. Let's not discount that. Most people can't resist her personality and influence. He's much more resistant than other people, but she wanted him around her and she got what she wanted. I think the whole thing is going to end on a better note, but at this point it's sad. It obviously meant something to him that it didn't mean to her. It's loss and it's disappointment and a myriad of other things. Of course, Zenkichi is pretty good at bouncing back so he seemed to be ok after waking up in that hospital bed. Quote:
It doesn't make any sense for Kikaijima to run after Medaka and ask her, "Don't you find that person extraordinary?" Like how could you beat up a statesman of that caliber or something? That's not what she's asking. She's asking, is that person precious to you? And Medaka replies, there is nobody who is an exception when it comes to me, everybody is equal. She's indirectly saying that he isn't precious to her. She's openly admitted that she won't belong to one man or person. She applies her ideals pretty consistently. Alot of things come from that. Her friends are no special exception. It works out well for her enemies, but Medaka has no loyalty to the people who stick to her. You'd better not have a bad day or a crisis. I talked about some of these other points, and from the social instincts that people have these implications of Medaka's ideals become disturbing. Most people don't articulate it in the same way I do, but they understand it and feel it right away. Now, I think you're right mostly about what she was doing, but you try to pull my leg when it comes to your habit of defending Medaka. At that point, she was doing it because she thought the whole thing was interesting and great. She was also impressed that he had decided to do it, which actually make me laugh the first I read it (since it was like Ajimu had read the situation like a book and the situation was sort of ridiculous). And she went through with it. She just basically disregarded all the little things I've been talking about that make that behavior of hers disturbing. This is a bit of an exaggerated comparison, but it's sort of like when you shoot an animal to put it out of its misery. Maybe it was the right thing to do, but it will leave a sour taste in your mouth.. Furthermore, it is not something you shouldn't do gleefully. You shouldn't start scouring the forest for wounded animals. I love that this event happened. But, I'm not heartless enough to be able to dismiss the tragedy of Zenkichi's situation. He's the one experiencing the lion share of loss and difficulty in this, and he was carrying the lion share of it in their previous relationship. Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2011-10-27 at 02:12. |
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2011-10-27, 01:27 | Link #5050 |
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Hello, I'm new to Animesuki. Got interested because of the varying opinions of Medaka Box fans. Personally, I think the recent Zenkichi vs Medaka arc is too reliant on absolutes. Is Medaka wrong for beating ruthlessly on Zenkichi? In my personal opinion, yes. It's a warped take on the whole "Defeat equals Friendship" approach. On the other hand, that's been Medaka's primary strategy for the course of this manga, which is somewhat understandable since she's an abnormal. The truth is, we don't know exactly what Medaka wants. Yes, Kikaijima and Unzen say that she just wants friends, but what does friendship mean to her? Because we all have different definitions.
Zenkichi is not blameless. I admit that I'm a Zen fan, but his character has often been boiled down to "guy who wants to protect" Medaka even though he has other traits. His overreaction at the end of the treasure hunt arc is both understandable and childish. I admit that. Sometimes he fluctuates between a tolerant guy and a stubborn one. Blaming Kumagawa didn't solve anything (though it seemed more like just an aspect of their vitriolic best buds relationship). But we're trying to project too many things onto characters. Every character has their own opinion. Even Zenkichi, who is often the narrator won't be completely honest. Overall, I can say that this puts Medaka's and Zenkichi's flaws in perspective (whatever you may find them to be). Sorry for this brain vomit. |
2011-10-27, 02:55 | Link #5051 |
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First off, I would like to say hello and that I am also new to the forums. I have been stalking this thread for quite a while and I have finally decided to join the conversation. What caused me to jump into this (on my first post now doubt) is a comment about Zen. The comment by Endscape stating:
" She [Medaka] didn't have a gun to his neck forcing him to spend time around her and it isn't as if she can't take a hint. She asked both Unzen and Shiranui to be her vice president, both refused, and she left them alone. Zen could have done the same and she would have left him alone as well. He was around because he wanted to be." This and the idea that Zen was too busy being Medaka's "pitbull" came off wrong to me not because I am a die-hard hard of Zen, but because it defies the position that Zen has been in from the very beginning. What makes the falling apart of Zen's ideals and relationship with Medaka extra messed up is the fact that he tried really hard to avoid all of this from the start. In chapter 1, Zen REPEATEDLY refused to join the student council. When he is asked by Shiranui if he was going to join. He saids " As if! Like I can handle being messed around by her anymore." This implies that, not only did Zen see the flaws in the relationship , but he tried to give it up and move on with his life. The whole first chapter (and some after that) was about how ridiculous he thought Medaka was and how he didn't want to deal with that anymore. So why did he stay? Because Medaka said she needed him. Not figuratively either. She continued to bug him to death to join the student council and when he tried to tell her how much she didn't need him and how much trouble (emotionally and physically) it was for him, she still said "I need you and I just want you by my side." Reread chapter 1 and, interestedly enough, your pretty much seeing the same conflicts in recent chaps: 1. Zen was never in this because he "wanted" to be. Though it has not been acted upon since the weird genre shift, Zen had always been in the position of the "poor sane person swiped up in crazy situations". For most of this manga, Zen was dragged into each arc and every time he tried to get back some sanity in his life, something stupid happened. 2. Zen was in it because Medaka said she needed him. The fact that Medaka was convinced that Zen was needed (or at least made it seem she was convinced) and claimed that she had never been challenged before as she did with her student council duties portrayed that she was in a sort of trouble. Despite the fact that HE knew she didn't need him, Zen helped and gave up a peaceful life he could have had if he ignored her. When you REALLY care for/love someone, you'll try to help them out in their time of distress even if it is not to your advantage or even a waste of time (like protecting a kid from the "boogieman"). For some strange twisted reason, Zen thought he was doing Medaka a favor and giving a sense of security that he could only give. Whither it was Medaka herself or some else (for example Maguro in the Flask Plan arc), Zen was always being told he was needed by Medaka for reasons stated above. This has and still is (in my own opinion) the reason why Zen stayed (though we all know that this was wrong in so many ways). I understand Medaka doesn't understand people and I also understand that Zen has many faults in his thought process as well. My Zen pity does not come from the idea of who is a victim or not. It comes from the blunt lack of consideration and appreciation for Zen's life in these chapters. It's like someone calling you for help because they had an accident only to find out they had a minor limp and wanted you to pick up a soda when you could have been going to your job interview that you canceled because you thought they were on their death bed. Like some else said, it seemed like all of Zen's work (and concern) was a waste of time and that is all types of depressing. |
2011-10-27, 03:20 | Link #5052 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
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One difference is that Zenkichi actually wants to be by Medaka's side instead of getting as far away from her as possible -- which honestly probably would be the most intelligent choice -- it's just that the situation is so abnormal that he can best do this by becoming her opponent. There probably are other, more peaceful, ways he could do it, but Ajimu already told Zenkichi that she would prevent him from finding another way. The involvement of a manipulative centuries-old immortal who sees all humans and human ideals as dust doesn't help matters at all. While readers probably shouldn't take everything she says as gospel, since she's a villain, everything she said about the cracks in Medaka/Zenkichi's "bond" was spot on. It wouldn't have been so easy for her to break them up otherwise. I still think Zenkichi joining the Flask Plan was a bad idea just because he's doing what Ajimu wanted him to do. Deals like this never turn out well because the people offering them never have anyone else's best interests in mind. |
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2011-10-27, 03:27 | Link #5053 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
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Quote:
Najimi told Zen that if he accepted to be the test subject of the flank plan and sacrificed his normality in this project, no other student would be used as a guinea pig. So Zen choice was not only for be with medaka (even if that's what he said) but also to prevent other students to end up victims of the Flank plan. |
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2011-10-27, 04:03 | Link #5054 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-10-27, 04:11 | Link #5055 |
Basileus Basileōn
Join Date: Jan 2011
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It was always just a matter of time until the Flask Plan was reactivated. It's just a matter of how long. Zen participating in the Flask Plan is different from becoming evil, because no one except himself will be used as a guinea pig for now, and he has vowed to destroy the plan after he is finished with it.
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2011-10-27, 04:23 | Link #5056 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-10-27, 04:25 | Link #5057 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
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MD84@Of course for now we can only assume that she said the true.
But seeing how it went out of her way to be sure that Zen would accept the deal,I think that she said the true. darthfanta@ Zen not has sworn to destroy the flank plan after defeating medaka. Zen warned Najimi that he might be the next to destroy the flank plan because, after beating medaka the flank plan would be useless for him. And Zen also said that she probably has already thought about this possibility. Zen also said that he would think about this after he saw her said ....or something like that. |
2011-10-27, 04:28 | Link #5058 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I really think she's just been trying to convince herself that it's true Last edited by Last Carpet; 2011-10-27 at 05:12. |
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2011-10-27, 04:31 | Link #5059 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
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^Indeed was Medaka who say that she and Zen understand eachother better than anyone else.
Zen never say something like that , from what I remember when she was again Kumagawa Zen thought that he(Zen) don't understand her. |
2011-10-27, 05:08 | Link #5060 |
Basileus Basileōn
Join Date: Jan 2011
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So you refuse someone's assistance just because that somebody is evil? As far as I can see it, as long as that assistance does not involve the violation of the rights of another individual, then it's acceptable. And what's more, Zen's acquiescence is merely an alliance of convenience. We don't know how things will play out, but Zen's definitely going to destroy the Flask Plan after he's through with it. If he suggested it, then he's bound to carry it out.
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Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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