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Old 2011-11-27, 10:02   Link #6021
yuzen003
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Is Zenkichi going to play into the shounen stereotypes? Will he go for a main character type power or eschew that and only focus on results, in this case a power that will allow him to beat Medaka even if it is not a main character type power? I know other characters have thrown around meta discussions about being the main character, final boss, etc. but has Zen's goal ever actually been becoming the main character? I think if he still retains a "normal" thought process he'll be pragmatic and chose something that will allow him to simply win rather then overthink things and try to pick a power suitable for a main character. If he has bought into the theory that he must be a main character to win I honestly can't even begin to guess what he could choose that would stand a chance against The End, it should be interesting to see what Nisio comes up with if that is the case.
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Old 2011-11-27, 10:52   Link #6022
Not Somebody
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Does anyone else think that Medaka is losing control of her abnormality? Or not being the same, maybe having too much control over her abnormality? Being the abnormality? Anyway, I think that she's going to drift closer to being a not-human. It's hard to say who is really Medaka at this point though. Or what her motivations are. For Zen, its really simple. He loves Medaka. For Medaka.... Apparently she just wants to enforce her ideals? I don't think she even has a motivation, or she wants to do it because it's just not possible. Either way, her and Ajimu seem to be more and more similar. Or perhaps, a similar league. UltraAbnormal. Maybe they're polar opposites in that league, a beast and a human. Need more chapters...!
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Old 2011-11-27, 15:28   Link #6023
telamont
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With all these talk of Medaka becoming a non-human and losing herself, I'm curious, what's making you guys say that? So far we have:

The first and most damning piece of evidence: the "reevaluation" and subsequent beat down of Zenkichi. This has already been argued to death with neither side convincing the other of anything, so I won't be touching it.

Ajimu's words, because she's obviously the author's mouthpiece, and does not have any reason to manipulate or lie to Zenkichi whatsoever.

Kamome's words that she likes being alone, and is stronger alone, because, once again, he's obviously the author's mouthpiece, and not a socially awkward guy (and therefore probably does not have keen insights into other people's hearts) who's just met Medaka for the first time 15 minutes ago, tops. He must have also fought her at some point in the past, when she was surrounded by comrades, because the guy obviously seems to have a frame of reference.

Medaka's attack on Kamome, which can be interpreted as: "Lol she's randomly attacking people now" or as "The suggestion that she likes being alone was just that offensive." Hmm... even if it's the second case, I'll agree that it's an overreaction and might concede a little on this point.

Lastly, we have Maguro's freaked out expression, which can mean... anything, really.

Did I miss anything? From what I've seen so far, it's just people coming in with their preconceived biases of either "Medaka may be physically strong, but she is hopelessly dependent on Zen emotionally. Without him, she's lost." or "Medaka is a perfectly strong and independent woman. She might appreciate Zen, but she certainly doesn't need him or is in any way dependent on him" and just interpreting recent events as they see fit?

The Zen fans (which seems to compose the majority of this forum) will say "See, see? See what all these characters are saying? The author is obviously trying to tell us something." The Medaka fans (by far the minority, poor Sol ) will just say "The words of the characters are not Word of God. Unless we actually get into Medaka's head, or Nisiosin states in an interview that Medaka is losing herself, their comments are in no way gospel truth."

Me? I'll just wait and see. Personally, I think Medaka's state of mind is in no way decided yet. From how she's been portrayed so far, I sincerely doubt that she's going to lose or break down in any significant way. Her random attack on Kamome is the only reason I think it might go either way at this point, and the uncertainty itself is currently the main draw of this arc for me. When people read a work of fiction, one of the main reasons is that they want to know what happens next, right? If the ending (even if it's one you desire) is already certain from the beginning, it can get a little boring, no?
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Old 2011-11-27, 16:34   Link #6024
Takigashima
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Like your observation.
I will say that I don't disagree with sol's analysis of medaka. But it is hard to accept when your opinion is brushed aside as nothing and not taken into consideration.
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Old 2011-11-27, 20:47   Link #6025
silver001
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telamont

i dont know maybe her recent actions. The fact that she seems to be enjoying being alone, as of chapter 124 she seem far more powerful being alone which is usually contrary to the shonen jump hero style. She attacks her closest friend and beats him till he is bloody, so that he can become her enemy. She treats people like equations.

don't get me wrong i might not 100% buy what ajimu is selling, but so far she has been pretty accurate about Medaka personality. So far at least the drawing is on the wall, whether that assessment is accurate, I will leave that up to future chapter. But till then, i m saying she is becoming a monster, I think the whole medaka box manga was the story of a girl becoming a monster. Let me just add that from the beginning of the manga, medaka was already consider a monster.
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Old 2011-11-27, 21:27   Link #6026
MD84
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It's true that Tsurubame and Ajimu aren't the most reliable sources of information. Tsurubame just met Medaka for the first time and Ajimu is, as I've said before, an immortal nihilist who thinks all humans are garbage. Which is why it sucks that they are the only people in the manga making observations on Medaka's mental state. And Medaka's actions from chapter 115 onward haven't exactly disproved their theories either.

It's telling that the other characters are either concerned about Medaka's current course of action and/or are outright opposing her. Either Medaka really is going off the deep end, or she's doing a really good job of playing the villain role for the greater good. The series being what it is, I'm betting on the latter.

Doesn't mean I'll ever approve of her beating the crap out of a friend for whatever reason.
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Old 2011-11-27, 22:43   Link #6027
telamont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
It's telling that the other characters are either concerned about Medaka's current course of action and/or are outright opposing her. Either Medaka really is going off the deep end, or she's doing a really good job of playing the villain role for the greater good. The series being what it is, I'm betting on the latter.
MD, it's true they're supporting Zenkichi, but that does not necessarily translate to opposing Medaka, right? Let's take a look:

Munakata, Mukae and Shiranui would obviously support Zen. No need to elaborate.

Her siblings as of chapter 124: "Even now we're doing what we think is best for her." Whether they think it's best Zenkichi beat her, or they're just keeping an eye on Ajimu? Who knows?

Akune: "I can sympathize with Zen as a man, and want to support him." Medaka gave him her blessing.

Kikajima: Just trying to stop the fight Zen started.

Kumagawa: Trollololololol. 'Nuff said.

At this point, from Medaka's speech to Akune, she seems to want Zen to win anyway. So to summarize: Zen wants to win against Medaka, Medaka wants Zen to win against Medaka, so therefore, supporting Zen is the same as supporting Medaka? Funny how even now, the guy's doing precisely what Medaka wants, huh?

On another note, anyone find it funny how Medaka, and to a lesser extent, Kumagawa is getting all the attention so far in Zen's personal arc? Even Zen's most loyal fans can't seem to string two posts together without mentioning Medaka in some way. This keeps up, this arc will turn into a character study of Medaka, with Zen's antics as a side show and Kumagawa providing the laughs. Yea, she's not letting go of that MC position any time soon.

Last edited by telamont; 2011-11-27 at 22:54.
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Old 2011-11-27, 22:56   Link #6028
evil|plushie
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telamont, the problem with that line of thinking; ie. waiting for medaka to confirm it or nisio to confirm it, is that basically means that nothing in this story has any impact at all unless it's flat out stated, which doesn't really work for a lot of stories. Everything has subtext, people are just interpreting that subtext to work out what seems to be the most likely possibility.

and of course medaka is mentioned a lot whenever zenkichi is brought up. She's the reason why he's doing what he's doing right now. It's like discussing naruto's motivations without mentioning sasuke somehow, or luffy without mentioning pirate kings.
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Old 2011-11-27, 23:17   Link #6029
[HearT]
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Here's a more high quality version of Volume 13 cover,
http://mantan-web.jp/assets/images/g...11/24_6/13.jpg

I like the cover, but I don't really think it's fitting for the chapter contents in the volume, it would have fit volume 12 better since that's the volume where kumagawa and aka had that card game thing, lol oh well




~totally psyched for when my volume comes♥ then I can finally see the results for the rest of the popularity contest~♥♥ >ヮ<
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Old 2011-11-27, 23:17   Link #6030
telamont
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
telamont, the problem with that line of thinking; ie. waiting for medaka to confirm it or nisio to confirm it, is that basically means that nothing in this story has any impact at all unless it's flat out stated, which doesn't really work for a lot of stories. Everything has subtext, people are just interpreting that subtext to work out what seems to be the most likely possibility.
True. My reaction to the whole drama between Zenkichi and Medaka was: "Interesting. I wonder how this will develop."

It works for me because, like I said, the uncertainty itself is the main draw, and I want to know what happens next. I've always been mostly indifferent towards Zen anyway, so it works perfectly for me.

Judging from the impassioned posts of Zen fans though, the drama had a much greater impact on them, and they're reading this cheering Zen on with all their hearts. Which is fine. A different, perhaps even superior way to enjoy the manga. I just hope he actually succeeds though.

But if he does not, the resultant schadenfreude would be great too, I guess.

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and of course medaka is mentioned a lot whenever zenkichi is brought up. She's the reason why he's doing what he's doing right now. It's like discussing naruto's motivations without mentioning sasuke somehow, or luffy without mentioning pirate kings.
With Luffy, there's no pirate king around to cramp his style. With Naruto... there are times people complain the manga should be renamed "Sasuke." 'Nuff said.
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Old 2011-11-27, 23:22   Link #6031
MD84
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Even if it's in her best interests, the people allying themselves with Zenkichi are still technically opposing Medaka by doing so. Out of all of them, the only character who outright dislikes Medaka is Shiranui Hansode. Munakata and Emukae don't particularly care about Medaka one way or another, Naze and Maguro still care for Medaka but support Zenkichi anyway since he's the one who needs support more (and Maguro is feeling guilty for pressuring him in the past), and Akune still has a crush on Medaka but feels compelled to support Zenkichi's newfound desire to live for himself.

Does Medaka really want Zenkichi to win their fight? Or does she just want him to give her a good challenge before her inevitable victory? Hard to say really.

If what Tsurubame said in chapter 124 is true (and that's a big "if"), then Medaka is actually the antithesis of a Shounen MC. Most of those rely on their friends and allies in spirit even if they fight the villain alone. You'd never see anyone call Luffy's crew, Naruto's village, Ichigo's friends, or Natsu's guild "shackles". Okay, a villain might try that line, but the MC will rebuff that violently. Their allies may not always contribute much in a direct fight, but they give the MC strength anyway.

And here Tsurubame claims that Medaka's allies were holding her back instead of giving her strength. We'll have to wait until the next chapter at least to see if she disagrees.
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Old 2011-11-27, 23:39   Link #6032
telamont
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Does Medaka really want Zenkichi to win their fight? Or does she just want him to give her a good challenge before her inevitable victory? Hard to say really.
OK, then at the very least, can we at least agree that she wants Zenkichi to become stronger? All that the people who support him are doing is help him become stronger anyway. When the time comes, the battle will be between him and Medaka alone. Whether he'll win then would be up to him, luck and fate.

So to reiterate: Medaka wants Zen to become stronger. Other people are helping Zen become stronger, either with her full support or while keeping her best interest in mind. So essentially, the third parties are either opposing both Zen and Medaka (Naked Apron Alliance) or supporting them both (the rest). I don't see it anywhere as clear cut as Medaka vs Zen & the world.

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Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
If what Tsurubame said in chapter 124 is true (and that's a big "if"), then Medaka is actually the antithesis of a Shounen MC. Most of those rely on their friends and allies in spirit even if they fight the villain alone. You'd never see anyone call Luffy's crew, Naruto's village, Ichigo's friends, or Natsu's guild "shackles". Okay, a villain might try that line, but the MC will rebuff that violently. Their allies may not always contribute much in a direct fight, but they give the MC strength anyway.
Agree. Absolutely. If it's true of course. But while we're on the subject of Naruto... remember the fight with Pain? "We must help Naruto!!!" "No, you'll only be in the way."
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Old 2011-11-28, 00:10   Link #6033
MD84
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OK, then at the very least, can we at least agree that she wants Zenkichi to become stronger? All that the people who support him are doing is help him become stronger anyway. When the time comes, the battle will be between him and Medaka alone. Whether he'll win then would be up to him, luck and fate.

So to reiterate: Medaka wants Zen to become stronger. Other people are helping Zen become stronger, either with her full support or while keeping her best interest in mind. So essentially, the third parties are either opposing both Zen and Medaka (Naked Apron Alliance) or supporting them both (the rest). I don't see it anywhere as clear cut as Medaka vs Zen & the world.
My only question is why she wants him to be stronger. If it's just so that he'll be a worthy opponent for her, then it's not so good. If it's because she wants him to be a stronger and more independent person overall (and I admit this is probably the most likely explanation), then it's slightly better.

Wanting someone to be stronger isn't always in their best interest. As an example, take Hisoka from Hunter X Hunter. He wants Gon and Killua to become stronger because he finds killing powerful people arousing. I'm not saying Medaka is anything like that of course.


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Agree. Absolutely. If it's true of course. But while we're on the subject of Naruto... remember the fight with Pain? "We must help Naruto!!!" "No, you'll only be in the way."
Like I said, the allies don't always contribute much in a direct fight. But Naruto draws strength from his desire to protect them, so they do help in their own way.
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Old 2011-11-28, 00:45   Link #6034
evil|plushie
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OK, then at the very least, can we at least agree that she wants Zenkichi to become stronger? All that the people who support him are doing is help him become stronger anyway. When the time comes, the battle will be between him and Medaka alone. Whether he'll win then would be up to him, luck and fate.
She just wants things to be interesting. Period. Whether Zenkichi becomes stronger or not, defeats her or not is unimportant or at most a very minor side-effect. She's a lot like the major in hellsing in this respect, except whereas the major seemed to thrive from war, she thrives from battle.


Quote:
So to reiterate: Medaka wants Zen to become stronger. Other people are helping Zen become stronger, either with her full support or while keeping her best interest in mind. So essentially, the third parties are either opposing both Zen and Medaka (Naked Apron Alliance) or supporting them both (the rest). I don't see it anywhere as clear cut as Medaka vs Zen & the world.
Again, that's like saying hellsing was helping the Major by fighting against him in a war that he wanted. -_- I'm not really sure that's logical.
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Old 2011-11-28, 01:14   Link #6035
MD84
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Fighting villains like the Major is always a hassle, since they take pleasure from the fight itself rather than working for any real goal. Even worse are the villains who actually want to be killed and do horrible things to force the heroes to do just that. I'm looking at you, Final Fantasy XIII.
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Old 2011-11-28, 02:06   Link #6036
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
She just wants things to be interesting. Period. Whether Zenkichi becomes stronger or not, defeats her or not is unimportant or at most a very minor side-effect. She's a lot like the major in hellsing in this respect, except whereas the major seemed to thrive from war, she thrives from battle.

Again, that's like saying hellsing was helping the Major by fighting against him in a war that he wanted. -_- I'm not really sure that's logical.
How did you come to the conclusion that Medaka just wants things to be "interesting"? The reason that Medaka is encouraging Zen to get stronger is for the same reason that Medaka encourages anybody--because she wants to help them. And helping people is Medaka's life purpose. I mean, sure, it's damned lucky that Medaka "thrives" from her life purpose and finds pushing people to improve themselves to be interesting--but this doesn't take away from the goodwill and intention behind it. From the time she found her purpose, Medaka has always lived her life for the sake of other people. This hasn't changed now; in fact, it's truer than it was at the start of the manga.


Anyway, a short tangent in the discussion here. I generally don't like participating in random speculation, but since the whole "what is Zenkichi's new ability???" question got hyped up by the manga intentionally I am willing to throw in some arbitrary guesses for the sake of potential bragging rights, lol. After some slight consideration, here's an initial one: Zenkichi asked for the ability to switch places with people, not just see through their perspective (Captain Ginyu, anyone? lol). Not only would this give him the ability to defeat anybody stronger than him, it would also allow him to force others to see a "normal" guy's perspective. Effective on two fronts, it would make battles less about winning and losing. Additionally, I think fighting through this sort of methodology could potentially be said to walk all over traditional values of "Hard Work, Friendship, and Victory". Of all the kinds of requests for power which could potentially shock Ajimu regarding becoming a Main Character, I think that this might be one of them.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-11-28 at 02:20.
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Old 2011-11-28, 02:18   Link #6037
evil|plushie
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Sol, I understand you have some obsessive need to defend Medaka. I don't know why. But as it is, Medaka herself says it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy in chapter 118 not because she wants to help him. You might be thinking of pre-genre shift Medaka, who actually seemed to be okay with helping people normally (normally as in not beating their faces in) but the Medaka of the past few chapters seems to be quite different from what she started out as originally.
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Old 2011-11-28, 02:35   Link #6038
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Sol, I understand you have some obsessive need to defend Medaka. I don't know why. But as it is, Medaka herself says it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy in chapter 118 not because she wants to help him. You might be thinking of pre-genre shift Medaka, who actually seemed to be okay with helping people normally (normally as in not beating their faces in) but the Medaka of the past few chapters seems to be quite different from what she started out as originally.
In what way does the Medaka of now seem different from the Medakas that faced Unzen, Miyakonojou, or Kumagawa? lol. If you base your entire interpretation off one line from chapter 118, well up until chapter 117 and even afterwards Medaka was still all about helping people, wasn't she? Think of both the content of all her conversations with Ajimu, as well as the lesson Medaka intended to communicate with the Treasure Hunt. And where does congratulating Akune for becoming a man who can stand up to her for the sake of helping out another person, exactly play into a personality that is just looking to fight or for "something interesting"? You bullshitted before that this was because Akune is small-fry and Medaka doesn't care about him, but even though you deliberately ignored Medaka's statements to the otherwise during the Treasure Hunt arc, you can't play that card even now after Ajimu and Zenkichi himself acknowledged him as their second biggest threat, right? Face it, this manga's characters as a whole are more complicated than your simple-minded reductions can describe about them.

This has not been a "defense" of Medaka, btw. I'm just telling you how your interpretation is "wrong", :P.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2011-11-28, 02:43   Link #6039
MD84
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I still think Medaka wants to help people. But she definitely seems to enjoy fighting for its own sake as well. And if she does seem different, that could be charitably called character development.

That said, regardless of motives, I don't approve of some of the things she has done in this arc, and I don't think readers are supposed to approve. I admit that it's partly due to my bias as a Zenkichi fan -- though I also have some concerns about him accepting help from freaking Ajimu, the only character in this series that I think is truly evil or at least amoral and manipulative -- but I just don't think we're supposed to be cheering Medaka on in this particular case. And I do like Medaka, believe it or not. I never took the accusations of Mary Sueness seriously (that term is overused) and didn't really have any problems with her actions until chapter 115. Yes, it is possible to be a fan of a character without trying to show all of their actions in the best possible light.

And let's face it, Medaka would make a pretty awesome endboss villain. She's already one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, character in the series. Chapter 124 reminded us of just how crazy powerful she is.

@Sol_Falling:

What exactly is your interpretation of that line in Chapter 118?
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Old 2011-11-28, 02:58   Link #6040
evil|plushie
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In what way does the Medaka of now seem different from the Medakas that faced Unzen, Miyakonojou, or Kumagawa? lol. If you base your entire interpretation off one line from chapter 118, well up until chapter 117 and even afterwards Medaka was still all about helping people, wasn't she? Think of both the content of all her conversations with Ajimu, as well as the lesson Medaka intended to communicate with the Treasure Hunt. And where does congratulating Akune for becoming a man who can stand up to her for the sake of helping out another person, exactly play into a personality that is just looking to fight or for "something interesting"? You bullshitted before that this was because Akune is small-fry and Medaka doesn't care about him, but even though you deliberately ignored Medaka's statements to the otherwise during the Treasure Hunt arc, you can't play that card even now after Ajimu and Zenkichi himself acknowledged him as their second biggest threat, right? Face it, this manga's characters as a whole are more complicated than your simple-minded reductions can describe about them.

This has not been a "defense" of Medaka, btw. I'm just telling you how your interpretation is "wrong", :P.
Lol, I said pre-genre shift. You know, before her helping people became about beating people; often sometimes the same people she's trying to help. Back when the manga was about finding lost dogs etc etc. And considering you think the genre shift started after she already starting beating things down, I'm just going to disregard the rest of your post. tl;dr

As for Akune, is it going to be more interesting if he helped her OR opposed her? I mean your argument is that Akune is not a small fry and Medaka would find it interesting to fight him and yet you're saying Medaka doesn't do things just to make things interesting because she congratulated him on deciding to oppose her, which will probably end up with him fighting her. Sol, make up your mind.

For that matter, when did Ajimu and Zenkichi say Akune was their 2nd biggest threat. Shouldn't that be, you know, Kumagawa??
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