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Old 2012-02-25, 21:46   Link #7141
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Akune explicitly pointed out that Medaka and Zenkichi were so serious about the fight that it would have been impossible to get in between them.
Because that's the extent of her ideals isn't it? When someone tells her it's impossible, she just ignores the fact that doing so is hardly fair or equal. What a hypocrite. It's like someone claiming 'oh, I'm going to fight for justice" and then watching a mugging and walking quietly by.

Quote:
This simply reveals what you've been missing about this manga. The greater goal is obviously the Student Council's purpose of helping people pursue their dreams--you know, the reason Medaka set up her Medaka Box? Helping other people is the reason that the current Student Council exists. Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to say that that is more important than competing with each other over some internal conflict.
Tenchi replied to this and I'll say it again, Zenkichi was STILL going to be on the student council. He just disagreed with Medaka but was still going to cooperate with her. You seem to think everyone must think the same way.

Quote:
Medaka made friends with people like Akune, Miyakonojou and Kumagawa despite Zenkichi, not because of him. Zenkichi has nothing to do with Medaka's current friends--most of them started out as enemies, the exact people Zenkichi was trying to keep away from her. All Zenkichi has actually contributed to Medaka's life was her initial goal/mission old to help other people at two years old. However, that in itself is no different from how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years without changing his original optimistic, idealistic personality.
The fact you think medaka and kumagawa are friends already shows your definition of Medaka's friendships is very very....strange. As for how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years, how pray tell did she do that? Did she support him? Did she give him money to continue living? Did she protect him from bullies? Hell, there was even one period in middle school where he admitted they didn't even interact that much. Was she secretly 'enabling' him from the shadows? What BS.

Quote:
Could Zenkichi have lived a happy life without Medaka? Sure, possibly. He probably wouldn't have been able to meet someone like Kumagawa and declare "Life is a Plus" so confidently, but certainly, he could've achieved a normal level of happiness. In the same way, though, you cannot exactly say that the two year old Medaka before she met Zenkichi was "unhappy". If Medaka never learned to care about other people's emotions in the first place, why would she even care if she was ostracised for eternity?
Lol, if you're going to go into hypotheticals, I'll just counter with another hypothetical. Heck for all you know, Zen would have gone into an even higher level of happiness. Mostly cause he wouldn't have to deal with so much bs and wouldn't have to occasionally fight for his life.


Quote:
The "type of person Kumagawa is" is someone who protects the weak. This is an inherent part of his character which was the specific reason he managed to inspire such loyalty from the Minuses. Kumagawa will never become less of a troll, but he has become a completely good and sympathetic character. Ever since Medaka convinced him that it was possible for Minuses to win, Kumagawa has stopped using his trolling to hurt other people and instead used it to try to win--both for his own sake, and also for the "weak" people whom Kumagawa is moved by empathy into protecting. This is what was revealed through Kumagawa's actions in the Treasure Hunt arc, and also the key behind Kumagawa's current participation in the Naked Apron Alliance.

If you can't identify or understand the positive aspects of Kumagawa's personality, then this simply shows that you have completely missed his character development.
Yes, great protector Kumagawa. WTF series are you reading? Kumagawa does things for his own trollish reasons. If you expect him to just be a protector of the weak, you're seriously misjudging him.

Plus we're not saying Kikaijima can't chase her own goals; which seems to be what you're reading from these replies but mostly because you also seem to believe everyone should all be unified in thinking and action. We're just saying she's stupid/naive.
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Old 2012-02-25, 21:47   Link #7142
kenjtr
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Even medaka said first oriantation was abaut cyborg girl not holding back , it wasnt abaut friendship at all any you are denying medaka yourself . Also medaka destroyed power of friendship by beating all schoolin the festival what the hell are you talking abaut , you only see what you want to see .
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Old 2012-02-25, 23:03   Link #7143
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Because that's the extent of her ideals isn't it? When someone tells her it's impossible, she just ignores the fact that doing so is hardly fair or equal. What a hypocrite. It's like someone claiming 'oh, I'm going to fight for justice" and then watching a mugging and walking quietly by.
lol, wtf are you talking about. The person Akune said they would not be able to stop from fighting was Zenkichi, not Medaka. If Zenkichi wanted the fight to continue in the first place, what the hell was "unfair" or "unequal" about it? Kikaijima and everybody else wanted to stop the fight, but Medaka and Zenkichi didn't--that's why the fight continued to its conclusion. Simple, end of story. And it probably didn't even take two minutes.

Quote:
Tenchi replied to this and I'll say it again, Zenkichi was STILL going to be on the student council. He just disagreed with Medaka but was still going to cooperate with her. You seem to think everyone must think the same way.
Zenkichi first waltzed up to Medaka telling her her ideals are wrong. Even now, after Zenkichi apologized and admitted that his rebellion had no grounding, he's aiming to usurp Medaka's position as a "main character". What he's introducing is precisely internal strife within the organization, and Medaka herself is encouraging it. Yes, in this sort of situation it is impossible for an organization to work towards a goal in a unified manner.

Why isn't Medaka part of the band, working together with the rest of the SC to put on an awesome performance? Precisely, it's because Zenkichi is trying to prove some other point about how they could do it better without her. As a consequence of that, Kikaijima was pushed into a high pressure individual spotlight position.

Quote:
The fact you think medaka and kumagawa are friends already shows your definition of Medaka's friendships is very very....strange. As for how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years, how pray tell did she do that? Did she support him? Did she give him money to continue living? Did she protect him from bullies? Hell, there was even one period in middle school where he admitted they didn't even interact that much. Was she secretly 'enabling' him from the shadows? What BS.
Medaka's existence is precisely the factor which allowed Zenkichi to maintain his optimistic mentality which he carried ever since he was a two year old. The fact that she was capable of doing anything and acted out his "making people happy" ideals for him is what protected Zenkichi's unequivocally positive view of the universe. Do you think it'd normally be possible for a person to have an unchanging personality for 13 years? Do you think it'd normally be possible to think "Life is a plus" after running into such a repulsively negative existence as Kumagawa? Shiranui's love/relationship with Zenkichi is based on his personality being so positive that she'd "never be able to swallow something so sweet". Would Zenkichi actually have this personality if Medaka's positive influence hadn't constantly protected him and pushed him forward since childhood?

(You ask if Medaka supported Zen or protected him from bullies, but in fact during their early childhood/elementary school period Medaka actually was Zen's "knight in shining armour". Refer to the flashback during Zenkichi's first fight against Munakata if you can't remember it. Later on in the arc, we see a hint of this former behaviour between them when Medaka reassures Zen when he starts shaking after meeting Kumagawa.)

Quote:
Lol, if you're going to go into hypotheticals, I'll just counter with another hypothetical. Heck for all you know, Zen would have gone into an even higher level of happiness. Mostly cause he wouldn't have to deal with so much bs and wouldn't have to occasionally fight for his life.
Dude, you were the first fucking one to introduce a hypothetical, by saying Zen would've made friends even without meeting Medaka because "he's just the type who gets along with people". And this is where I said you were simply wrong, because all we know is that at two years old Zenkichi was the type who got along with people, and as I stated the only reason Zenkichi managed not to change for 13 years was because of his relationship with Medaka. You don't know anything about what Zenkichi's life would've been like if he'd never met Medaka, except that he'd probably have achieved a "normal" level of happiness--which is no more significant than saying (equally obviously) that Medaka probably would've achieved an "abnormal's" level of happiness--just like the rest of them.

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Yes, great protector Kumagawa. WTF series are you reading? Kumagawa does things for his own trollish reasons. If you expect him to just be a protector of the weak, you're seriously misjudging him.
Kumagawa can do whatever the fuck else he wants to, but if you're doubting his sincerity when he says he wants to help out the Naked Apron Alliance and that "protecting the weak" is his reason for doing so, you're just delusional. He is Kikaijima's ally, there is nothing there that needs questioning.

Quote:
Plus we're not saying Kikaijima can't chase her own goals; which seems to be what you're reading from these replies but mostly because you also seem to believe everyone should all be unified in thinking and action. We're just saying she's stupid/naive.
I don't personally believe that. But it is perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to think so. If you want to talk about stupidity/naivety then how about Zenkichi's decision to take on Medaka and try to become the main character? Kikaijima believing that she can interfere in their battle and force (and/or convince) them to work together in unity is not any more naive or unreasonable. It's the same fucking thing, they're pursuing their own goals. Try not being so blind that you can't see things from the perspective of another character.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-02-25 at 23:16.
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Old 2012-02-25, 23:06   Link #7144
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, wtf are you talking about. The person Akune said they would not be able to stop from fighting was Zenkichi, not Medaka. If Zenkichi wanted the fight to continue in the first place, what the hell was "unfair" or "unequal" about it? Kikaijima and everybody else wanted to stop the fight, but Medaka and Zenkichi didn't--that's why the fight continued to its conclusion. Simple, end of story. And it probably didn't even take two minutes.
Which fight are you even talking about. I'm talking about the one where Zenkichi came in and said 'hey medaka, I'm going to oppose you but no worriez, I'm still going to help with the student council' and then Medaka beat his face in. There wasn't even anything shown of the fight so everyone wanted to stop the fight? When, after the fight was over and they said they wanted to stop it? Right, cause saying things after the fact means it MUST be true. Actions speak louder than words. You're as usual cherry-picking to suit your own views. With that in mind, I'm just going to disregard the rest of your post because if you couldn't get this point , I doubt there's anything worthwhile in the rest of your post.
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Old 2012-02-25, 23:27   Link #7145
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Which fight are you even talking about. I'm talking about the one where Zenkichi came in and said 'hey medaka, I'm going to oppose you but no worriez, I'm still going to help with the student council' and then Medaka beat his face in. There wasn't even anything shown of the fight so everyone wanted to stop the fight? When, after the fight was over and they said they wanted to stop it? Right, cause saying things after the fact means it MUST be true. Actions speak louder than words. You're as usual cherry-picking to suit your own views. With that in mind, I'm just going to disregard the rest of your post because if you couldn't get this point , I doubt there's anything worthwhile in the rest of your post.
Blatant attempt to save face, but I shouldn't try to be an asshole. Everything about why the fight could not be interrupted was laid out before it happened, in the 117th chapter. Kikaijima and the others wanted to stop the fight, but couldn't because Zenkichi wanted to fight just as much as Medaka did. Complaining that they didn't do more than that is completely nonsensical because, as you point out, Akatsuki/Nishio didn't even show the fight in the first place. As a matter of fact, you don't even know if Kikaijima et. al didn't throw in a couple more protests or take a couple actions to try to put an end to the battle.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:08   Link #7146
Terizent
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Blatant attempt to save face, but I shouldn't try to be an asshole. Everything about why the fight could not be interrupted was laid out before it happened, in the 117th chapter. Kikaijima and the others wanted to stop the fight.
I don't think so, Tim. They acted like the bystanders that crowd around when the bully beats up a little kid. If they had wanted to stop the fight, it would have been easy to do so. But all they did was watch.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Zenkichi wanted to fight just as much as Medaka did.
Zenkichi told Medaka that he was gonna keep on working with the SC peacefully. It was Medaka who initiated the fight in the first place, even though Zen had no intention of violence. That's why he let her beat him up.

Now, before you start arguing that it was because he was too weak, let me state that her Forsaken God Mode auto-downgrades her abilities to lower/equal to her opponents. In other words, Zenkichi could have beaten her. The only reason he could have sustained so many injuries while Medaka remained perfectly fine would be if he didn't want to fight back.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As a matter of fact, you don't even know if Kikaijima et. al didn't throw in a couple more protests or take a couple actions to try to put an end to the battle.
Yeah, but you can't prove if they did protest against the fight either. You can't use the absence of evidence as evidence. Although, judging by Kumagawa and Akune's lines before the fight, "It's impossible to stop them...we can only let this play out," it can be assumed that they didn't do anything to try and stop it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:24   Link #7147
evil|plushie
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Sol, you can think of it as whatever you want, the same way you can rationalise how Kikaijima is really fighting for equality and friendship and Kumagawa isn't a huge troll. I mean, if you can rationalise that, you can rationalise anything. Me, I have better things to do than to argue with someone who would only look at things through 1 POV. Other people have stated in this thread pretty much what I've said as well and you just parrot your same phrases over and over again. Maybe you think that's a worthwhile use of your time but I rather not argue with a parrot.

And I agree with what Terizent said as well. I've stopped fights before by stepping in between them and I've had people who said 'oh, they shouldn't have fought cause they're friends. i wanted to stop them' but DIDN'T frigging step in and guess what, I despise the latter type of people because they're only good at talking crap instead of doing what they mean, like most people nowadays. And that's what we call hypocrites.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:35   Link #7148
kenjtr
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Abaut stepping in i must talk , i have stepped in a few fights before in my life but if you are not confident in your power you should avoid stepping in . Let me tell you why no one stepped in there answer is simple actually , when your leader bully a weak person you dont step in . Everyone thinks medaka is the leader so no one tried to stop her when she beat the hell out of zenkichi , all zenkichi did was point his wiev ( even if he admitted he was wrong ) and if we beat everyone who ooposes us there , we cant find one person to get along . Why didnt medaka talked zenkichi and asked what changed his mind ? simple cause medaka has no empathy and cant read the mood .
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:36   Link #7149
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Terizent View Post
I don't think so, Tim. They acted like the bystanders that crowd around when the bully beats up a little kid. If they had wanted to stop the fight, it would have been easy to do so. But all they did was watch.
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
And I agree with what Terizent said as well. I've stopped fights before by stepping in between them and I've had people who said 'oh, they shouldn't have fought cause they're friends. i wanted to stop them' but DIDN'T frigging step in and guess what, I despise the latter type of people because they're only good at talking crap instead of doing what they mean, like most people nowadays. And that's what we call hypocrites.
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Abaut stepping in i must talk , i have stepped in a few fights before in my life but if you are not confident in your power you should avoid stepping in . Let me tell you why no one stepped in there answer is simple actually , when your leader bully a weak person you dont step in . Everyone thinks medaka is the leader so no one tried to stop her when she beat the hell out of zenkichi , all zenkichi did was point his wiev ( even if he admitted he was wrong ) and if we beat everyone who ooposes us there , we cant find one person to get along . Why didnt medaka talked zenkichi and asked what changed his mind ? simple cause medaka has no empathy and cant read the mood .
lol, I am not going to debate nitpicking fanfiction over what was blatantly shown in the story. It was explicitly stated, Zenkichi would not back down after being punched by Medaka. Nobody could stop him, so they let him do what he wanted. You guys looking for points to nitpick Kikaijima's actions and try to accuse her of "hypocrisy" is simply pure bias and loose interpretation of the manga, lol. It's clear as day Nishio intended for Kikaijima to be understood as genuinely concerned about their argument.

If you want to ask why nobody stepped in while Zenkichi was getting beat up, why don't you consider the possibility that they didn't even have the chance to? If Zenkichi truly didn't fight back, Medaka wouldn't even have needed 15 seconds to do that amount of damage. After all, Forsaken God Mode is for the purpose of "not holding back". You guys imagining there was a fight even long enough to intervene in goes against why Nishio/Akatsuki's didn't show it in the story.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Sol, you can think of it as whatever you want, the same way you can rationalise how Kikaijima is really fighting for equality and friendship and Kumagawa isn't a huge troll. I mean, if you can rationalise that, you can rationalise anything. Me, I have better things to do than to argue with someone who would only look at things through 1 POV. Other people have stated in this thread pretty much what I've said as well and you just parrot your same phrases over and over again. Maybe you think that's a worthwhile use of your time but I rather not argue with a parrot.
Don't worry, I have better things than to do than argue your empty evasive shit too . The fact that you're talking as if completely obvious interpretations of the material have to be "rationalized" simply eliminates your credibility. You simply don't have any arguments, which has been amply demonstrated before. I don't even know why you decided to nitpick a single useless part of your own argument ("hurrdurr, Kikaijima didn't step in to stop Medaka/Zenkichi's fight physically so none of her statements or characterization actually mean anything, lol") so immaterially, lol.
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:48   Link #7150
evil|plushie
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Yes, because whenever characters say something, it must absolutely be true -_- And whenever the mangaka never shows something, it must be in favor of your arguments. And there's an invisible dragon living under your bed, just that you can't see it cause it's invisible. Like most of your arguments. It's barely 1 step above the fanfiction kenjtr likes writing.
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:55   Link #7151
Sol Falling
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Yes, because whenever characters say something, it must absolutely be true -_- And whenever the mangaka never shows something, it must be in favor of your arguments. And there's an invisible dragon living under your bed, just that you can't see it cause it's invisible. Like most of your arguments. It's barely 1 step above the fanfiction kenjtr likes writing.
There are characters whose words and motivations you question, and there are characters whose words and motivations you don't. Kikaijima, at the very least, is one of the latter. Jesus christ lol . How could your perspective get so distorted that you begin to question the moemoe "love and friendship" cheerleader character.
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Old 2012-02-26, 06:46   Link #7152
evil|plushie
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I question everyone whose words don't match up with their actions. This includes people who fight wars for 'world peace', people who want to make other people happy by beating them and countless other shounen cliches.

And I must be wrong if everyone else in this thread so far is coming out to rebut me, oh wait, they're rebutting you -_- I wonder what that means. I guess everyone else is wrong too
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:45   Link #7153
Sol Falling
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I question everyone whose words don't match up with their actions. This includes people who fight wars for 'world peace', people who want to make other people happy by beating them and countless other shounen cliches.

And I must be wrong if everyone else in this thread so far is coming out to rebut me, oh wait, they're rebutting you -_- I wonder what that means. I guess everyone else is wrong too
And? You don't have any examples of Kikaijima's "actions", you just have one very questionable claim of Kikaijima's "inaction" versus everything else she has ever done in the series.

I hardly see the support pouring out for you when nobody bothered to rebut my rebuttal of all your major arguments. You decided instead to nitpick an irrelevant side point that doesn't even support your primary argument (I thought you were trying to say that Kikaijima is "stupid/naive", not that she's a hypocrite), and the only "support" you managed to dredge up with that was from kenjtr and another self-confessed Zenkichi-fanboy.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:21   Link #7154
Tenchi Hou Take
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TBF I'm not even sure if Kikajaima was really even against the fight at the time, since her reaction to it with Medaka afterwards was why didn't she hold back rather than why they were fighting, and she even remarks half smiling after Medaka said that she did hold back that Zenkichi didn't have any potential to beat her, which aren't exactly the words of someone who only cared about stopping the fight.

I think she only really started to care about stopping the fight after Kumagawa spoke to her, before she was just unhappy with the situation. Much like Zenkichi is doing with her right now. She's simply too easily played and manipulated, which is probably why some people don't take her convictions seriously.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:22   Link #7155
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I think from the first chapter of this manga author gave us hints that medaka and zenkichi will clash one day , zenkichi didnt wanted to be with medaka but he did why ? because he loved her thats all simple . To me it looked zenkichi had given up on her then but medaka without noticing his feelings dragged him and burned his old fire . Even in minakojis case zenkichi dint have much hope he just desperately watched medaka falling for another guy , medaka didnt stopped there she put lots of guys near her who are more capable then zenkichi and pushed him abyss of hell . Last nail to the coffin was , she just got bored from him and wanted to get rid of him .

Zenkichi who pushed to the corner couldnt taken it anymore and wanted to comfort her because he wanted her to understand his feelings , which resulted medaka beating him up . zenkichi wasnt angry there cause medaka hit him , he was angry cause he understood medaka doesnt see and care for him at all . Kikajima wants zenkichi stay the way he is which will make him suffer more , no one can stay near the girl he loved when he knows she will never love him . Yes if things stay the way it is kikajima may be happy but both zenkichi and medaka will suffer , is it good to build your happiness on suffering of others ?
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:41   Link #7156
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Peace and love, guys! For Kikaijima's sake!
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:45   Link #7157
Tenchi Hou Take
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Peace and love, guys! For Kikaijima's sake!
I still find it ironic that Zenkichi of all people had to tell her what to do in regards to her "goal", considering he triggered it. If you have to be told how to do your job by the person your opposing then your doing it wrong.
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Old 2012-02-26, 15:41   Link #7158
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Blatant attempt to save face, but I shouldn't try to be an asshole. Everything about why the fight could not be interrupted was laid out before it happened, in the 117th chapter. Kikaijima and the others wanted to stop the fight, but couldn't because Zenkichi wanted to fight just as much as Medaka did.
.......What?!?

Maybe I need to re-read ch117, but from what I remember Zenkichi told her that she was wrong. That humans shouldn't always succeed.

At no point did Zenkichi say "I want to fight you right here, right now"

And again Medaka used Forsaken God Mode, which makes her weaker than her opponent, to fight him and he lost. At no point did she realize that Zenkichi didn't actually challenge her to a fight, and thusly didn't want to fight her You'd think that someone as smart as her would be able to figure out that he must've held back. But someone like her has no sense of empathy. She beat the tar out of him just to make sure that he'd stay her enemy, just so she wouldn't be wrong and could continue to see value in him.

This, plus the latest chapter, Makes me wonder just what Kikaijima thinks about the entire fallout. After Medaka explained what Forsaken God Mode does, she realizes that Medaka is incapable of sharing and understanding another person's feelings. Then during the video game trial, she thought Medaka's ideals "that a person shouldn't hold themselves back for the sake/expense of her friends" weren't neccessarily right as people hold themselves back in certain aspects in order to fit in.

Kind of makes me wonder just who she blames for the entire collapse?
And even if she tells Medaka what she feels, who's to say she won't just beat her up like she did to Zen? Then again, Akune decided to turn away from Medaka and she praised him for it?

Who knows...until Friday?

Last edited by Last Carpet; 2012-02-27 at 08:18.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:39   Link #7159
zeando
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just wait for medaka to respond to kikaijima's shout with some perfectly random break dance
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:21   Link #7160
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I still find it ironic that Zenkichi of all people had to tell her what to do in regards to her "goal", considering he triggered it. If you have to be told how to do your job by the person your opposing then your doing it wrong.
I think Zenkichi basically just redirected Kikaijima's frustration, which was towards him at the moment, towards Medaka as a more constructive use of the situation. This was only possible because Kikaijima's target is both of them. It's not really that Zen is helping out Kikaijima--it's more that Zenkichi put her in a situation where (at least for the moment) she's better off focusing on Medaka rather than him.
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