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Old 2012-04-20, 11:45   Link #8101
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Your missing the point, it wasn't simply that Zen wasn't in that arc, his importance in the story as whole was being pretty much remove, causing people who may have been his fans to jump ship. Combined with the fact that Medaka Box as a whole had become a lot more popular meaning a greater pool of votes meant he was pretty much being left to die. Hell Even I at that point was wondering whether Zen would remain little more than a side character from then on.
So Zen fans equal bandwagon fans? Nice to know! Also where's the loads of examples you had of male jump leads doing horrible in character polls, considering I've never seen one outside the top 3 before I'm actually curious to see these.
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Old 2012-04-20, 11:59   Link #8102
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
So Zen fans equal bandwagon fans? Nice to know! Also where's the loads of examples you had of male jump leads doing horrible in character polls, considering I've never seen one outside the top 3 before I'm actually curious to see these.
Some Zen fans in Japan yes and lets be honest Zen is one of the most popular characters in the west around the same as Kumagawa as far as I can gather, too bad western fans count for shit.

Anyway first that comes to mind is Nura, the human half definately didn't make top 4 and I have no idea where he actually ranked but I'm pretty sure it was bad. There's a few others.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:03   Link #8103
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
It's called consistency it's like asking for a main character change when there's another character that's clearly more popular than them, it breaks up the narrative structure and degrades closer to simple fanservice.

I've actually seen loads do that and tbf at the point of that poll Zen was being treated little more than a side character, he had barely had any importance in the current plot. It's not surprising he wasn't particularily popular then.

The anime really should have done at least the flask plan arc at all costs. It being the more standard shounen fair and was reasonably popular even if not by all that much. Doing the first arc was pretty much sending it to die.
lol, I think Kumagawa NTRing Zen for Medaka would actually be extremely consistent within the narrative of the Medaka Box universe...but it remains to be seen whether Nishio has the balls to ever go that far. The main point however is that the supposed "romance" between Medaka and Zenkichi is extremely vanilla, basic, and boring. Because of the inherent difference in level between Zenkichi and Medaka's abilities, all the romance can ever boil down to is basically "I work extremely hard for your sake" + "I really appreciate how hard you work for me". And that is just completely generic/uninteresting and I don't think could ever turn Medaka Box into a popular series.

Regarding Zenkichi's popularity rising due to his recent focus in the story...this may or may not be true. However, looking at the Medaka Box's performance in the ToC rankings from the end of the Treasure Hunt/Clock Tower segment, it seems like the actual content of the story during that part of the manga wasn't very popular. Regardless of whether Zenkichi actually gained any fans back due to his recent focus in the story, I think it's at least clear that the focus/content of that story--Zenkichi pursuing his love for Medaka--isn't very popular.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:09   Link #8104
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, I think Kumagawa NTRing Zen for Medaka would actually be extremely consistent within the narrative of the Medaka Box universe...but it remains to be seen whether Nishio has the balls to ever go that far. The main point however is that the supposed "romance" between Medaka and Zenkichi is extremely vanilla, basic, and boring. Because of the inherent difference in level between Zenkichi and Medaka's abilities, all the romance can ever boil down to is basically "I work extremely hard for your sake" + "I really appreciate how hard you work for me". And that is just completely generic/uninteresting and I don't think could ever turn Medaka Box into a popular series.
Medaka HATED Kumagawa until the end of the minus 13 arc, even then after that she kept him around as part of her helping humanity experiment, and showed little more affection to him than Akune until that casual marriage remark. Consistent that AIN'T. Especially considering Kumagawa was more than willing to kill everyone she ever cared about or at least cripple them to a ridiculous degree that they may as well be dead and didn't repent at all.

Such consistent writing that would be.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:10   Link #8105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Medaka HATED Kumagawa until the end of the minus 13 arc, even then after that she kept him around as part of her helping humanity experiment, and showed little more affection to him than Akune until that casual marriage remark. Consistent that AIN'T. Especially considering Kumagawa was more than willing to kill everyone she ever cared about or at least cripple them to a ridiculous degree that they may as well be dead and didn't repent at all.

Such consistent writing that would be.
You really don't like Kumagawa all that much, do you?
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:11   Link #8106
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
You really don't like Kumagawa all that much, do you?
Neh he's a great character, I love him for what he is, but let's not sweep under the carpet his flaws. He's a maginificent bastard but still a bit of a bastard.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:18   Link #8107
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Neh he's a great character, I love him for what he is, but let's not sweep under the carpet his flaws. He's a maginificent bastard but still a bit of a bastard.
That's what makes him such a good character though.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:27   Link #8108
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Medaka HATED Kumagawa until the end of the minus 13 arc, even then after that she kept him around as part of her helping humanity experiment, and showed little more affection to him than Akune until that casual marriage remark. Consistent that AIN'T. Especially considering Kumagawa was more than willing to kill everyone she ever cared about or at least cripple them to a ridiculous degree that they may as well be dead and didn't repent at all.

Such consistent writing that would be.
Heh. The point of Medaka's marriage remark to Kumagawa wasn't "affection", it was respect. Which is one thing Kumagawa has always had the edge over Zen on. Medaka returned Kumagawa's initial "I loved/hated you, now and long ago" because she acknowledged that he is strong (in both character and ability). This is the same justification behind her inviting Kumagawa for her Black Wedding Feast excursion, and the same motive behind her saying she would acknowledge Kumagawa if he had a romantic interest in her. Zenkichi, by comparison, has been seen for most of Medaka's life as someone she needs to protect, and whose independence she only respected because she knew that was important to Zenkichi himself. As a romantic interest, Medaka is lowering herself to meet Zen (even if Zen has a lot of importance to Medaka for non-romantic reasons). However, as for Kumagawa, Medaka genuinely acknowledges him as an equal.
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Old 2012-04-20, 12:28   Link #8109
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
That's what makes him such a good character though.
And I never said he wasn't, I was just pointing out some his flaws which would make Medaka falling in love with him currently not seem very consistent. In the future maybe if there's sufficient character development for both of their characters but not currently.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Heh. The point of Medaka's marriage remark to Kumagawa wasn't "affection", it was respect. Which is one thing Kumagawa has always had the edge over Zen on. Medaka returned Kumagawa's initial "I loved/hated you, now and long ago" because she acknowledged that he is strong (in both character and ability). This is the same justification behind her inviting Kumagawa for her Black Wedding Feast excursion, and the same motive for her acknowledging Kumagawa's romantic interest in her. Zenkichi, by comparison, has been seen for most of Medaka's life as someone she needs to protect, and whose independence she only respected because she knew he wanted to prove himself to her. As a romantic interest, Medaka is lowering herself to meet Zen (even if Zen has a lot of importance to Medaka for non-romantic reasons). However, as for Kumagawa, Medaka genuinely acknowledges him as an equal.
Actually your also missing the point. Medaka was enamoured by Zenkichi's ability to guide people something she see's as a phenomenon, he was doing that for her all along she just didn't need it. It's pretty obvious Medaka enjoys "competing" with Zenkichi more than anyone else, she saw his potential and that was proven right when he was the only person that managed to defeat her but also the only person that truly cared about her. Kumagawa does also kinda care it's just extremely twisted.
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Old 2012-04-20, 13:00   Link #8110
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Actually your also missing the point. Medaka was enamoured by Zenkichi's ability to guide people something she see's as a phenomenon, he was doing that for her all along she just didn't need it. It's pretty obvious Medaka enjoys "competing" with Zenkichi more than anyone else, she saw his potential and that was proven right when he was the only person that managed to defeat her but also the only person that truly cared about her. Kumagawa does also kinda care it's just extremely twisted.
I don't think Kumagawa's care for Medaka is particularly twisted, he's just used to losing. Accordingly, he hasn't really made a move on Medaka up to now. There's also the issue that it appears to some degree that Kumagawa is considerate of Zen's feelings, so he may not be willing to outright step to the front of the line in contending for Medaka. Because Kumagawa is an "ally of the weak", he wouldn't do something like irreversibly trampling on another person's feelings.

Medaka is obviously dependent on Zen for certain emotional reasons (i.e. she believes things like "He's the only one who would never leave me alone", etc.) but I wouldn't take Medaka's words regarding "competing" with Zen as especially meaningful. Part of Medaka's humility is that she's always respecting and thinking highly of others; you can find similar statements by Medaka about "the strongest person I know", etc. about Akune. Medaka simply enjoys/admires people's independence and strength in general; in a way, Akune and Zenkichi's growth away from their worship and dependence on Medaka is a reflection of what Zenkichi lead for the rest of the entire student body.
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Old 2012-04-20, 14:14   Link #8111
Clarste
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I'm pretty sure Medaka would've casually proposed marriage to any number of people who she respects. Akune, Hinokage, probably Zenkichi of course after his election victory. I wouldn't take the line too seriously as "shipping" between Medaka and Kumagawa.

Last edited by Clarste; 2012-04-20 at 14:53.
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Old 2012-04-20, 15:01   Link #8112
FFXFan13
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I'm pretty sure Medaka would've casually proposed marriage to any number of people who she respects. Akune, Hinokage, probably Zenkichi of course after his election victory. I wouldn't take the line too seriously as "shipping" between Medaka and Kumagawa.
Not serious shipping, no. But it's a nice gesture of respect, and a sign that the relationship between the two has gotten better.
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Old 2012-04-20, 15:40   Link #8113
Kamuui
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Provide examples than, loads of them.

As for your "excuse", explain this too.

1st Poll

Zen - 554
Munakata - 323

2nd Poll

Zen - 672
Munakata - 807

You can say Zen was treated like a side character and barely had any importance in that arc even though it's flat out untrue.. but Kei wasn't even in that arc period and had a near 500 jump in votes.

EDIT - A lot of these votes would've been based off the MINUS ARC, not the NotEquals arc, think of the timeframe and don't forget that TOC votes themselves are 8 weeks back.

Well, at least Zenkichi, is first among the four best fights of the series (although also be Kumagawa).
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Old 2012-04-20, 16:22   Link #8114
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I'm pretty sure Medaka would've casually proposed marriage to any number of people who she respects. Akune, Hinokage, probably Zenkichi of course after his election victory. I wouldn't take the line too seriously as "shipping" between Medaka and Kumagawa.
Possibly. Rather than Akune or Hinokage, though, the first other candidate I would think of is Miyakonojou. The first factor in Medaka throwing out that statement like that was that she was responding to Kumagawa's confession/statement of romantic interest. This cuts out Hinokage, as the pool should obviously be limited to persons whom think of Medaka a woman, and whom Medaka thinks of as a man.

On a separate aspect, Medaka's statement was explicitly spoken in connection with marriage. This has specific implications which I think are fairly limited to individuals like Kumagawa. The thing is that marriage in Japan has a lot of formal/social implications which don't necessarily have any connection to romanticism; particularly in the case of upper class marriages, which is is most definitely the scenario for Medaka herself. In saying that she would consent to a practically immediate marriage to Kumagawa, Medaka is confessing first of all that she has a trust/confidence in Misogi regarding all of those social conditions. The romantic aspect is secondary (I am not certain Medaka has any determined concept of romanticism), and is suitable to be left for later; the aforementioned "respect" we have been talking is the primary basis for having confidence that that will somehow work out.

The point here I am saying, then, is that this is actually a fairly specific compliment (or a compliment in a fairly specific area) from Medaka to Kumagawa. Certainly Medaka would probably agree to "go out" with Zenkichi or Kouki (after she's thought about various other people's feelings, I guess, if she noticed them). However, on the issue of marriage, I think Medaka's "If it's you, Kumagawa" applies more or less specifically. This is because Kumagawa is one of the rare people actually romantically interested in Medaka who hasn't gone through the whole admiration/idolation "Medaka is perfect/always right" stage. Zenkichi/Kouki may have matured/stepped towards independence, but they have still barely started their lives without her. Any romantic relationship Medaka could have with them would have to be tempered by the fact that they would need to keep some distance so as not to regress that growth. It would need to be proceeded gradually (i.e. through dating/courtship), rather than stepping immediately into such ostentatiously unified/intimate roles as "wife"/"husband". The dynamics of their relationships are highly different from the one Medaka has with Kumagawa, whereby Kumagawa's independence from Medaka has long been established already.

If you ask me, "I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" says that Medaka wouldn't mind getting closer to Misogi (yes, even that close). This is in contrast to her relationships with Akune and Zenkichi, where the important thing is actually their ability to stand individually. So, as far as shipping material, I think it's fairly favourable for Misogi. In terms of overall possibilities regarding whether the romance in Medaka Box will actually go somewhere, I think Kumagawa is in fact extremely obvious second choice.
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Old 2012-04-20, 17:21   Link #8115
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

If you ask me, "I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" says that Medaka wouldn't mind getting closer to Misogi (yes, even that close). This is in contrast to her relationships with Akune and Zenkichi, where the important thing is actually their ability to stand individually. So, as far as shipping material, I think it's fairly favourable for Misogi. In terms of overall possibilities regarding whether the romance in Medaka Box will actually go somewhere, I think Kumagawa is in fact extremely obvious second choice.
Not really Medaka was more than willing to marry Electric dude. Basically anyone that wanted to marry her she probably would have that said that to. Why are we bringing random shipping into this crap.
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Old 2012-04-20, 17:23   Link #8116
FFXFan13
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Not really Medaka was more than willing to marry Electric dude. Basically anyone that wanted to marry her she probably would have that said that to. Why are we bringing random shipping into this crap.
Harsh dude.
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Old 2012-04-20, 17:26   Link #8117
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
Harsh dude.
Harsh but true, her precise reasoning with him was he saw her as a woman. That could damn near apply to practically anyone that really wanted to be with her. Really though it's bad characterization Medaka's far too willing to propose marriage to random people not even most manga characters are that quick to do that. It's just extremely weird.
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Old 2012-04-20, 17:26   Link #8118
Log
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Possibly. Rather than Akune or Hinokage, though, the first other candidate I would think of is Miyakonojou. The first factor in Medaka throwing out that statement like that was that she was responding to Kumagawa's confession/statement of romantic interest. This cuts out Hinokage, as the pool should obviously be limited to persons whom think of Medaka a woman, and whom Medaka thinks of as a man.

On a separate aspect, Medaka's statement was explicitly spoken in connection with marriage. This has specific implications which I think are fairly limited to individuals like Kumagawa. The thing is that marriage in Japan has a lot of formal/social implications which don't necessarily have any connection to romanticism; particularly in the case of upper class marriages, which is is most definitely the scenario for Medaka herself. In saying that she would consent to a practically immediate marriage to Kumagawa, Medaka is confessing first of all that she has a trust/confidence in Misogi regarding all of those social conditions. The romantic aspect is secondary (I am not certain Medaka has any determined concept of romanticism), and is suitable to be left for later; the aforementioned "respect" we have been talking is the primary basis for having confidence that that will somehow work out.

The point here I am saying, then, is that this is actually a fairly specific compliment (or a compliment in a fairly specific area) from Medaka to Kumagawa. Certainly Medaka would probably agree to "go out" with Zenkichi or Kouki (after she's thought about various other people's feelings, I guess, if she noticed them). However, on the issue of marriage, I think Medaka's "If it's you, Kumagawa" applies more or less specifically. This is because Kumagawa is one of the rare people actually romantically interested in Medaka who hasn't gone through the whole admiration/idolation "Medaka is perfect/always right" stage. Zenkichi/Kouki may have matured/stepped towards independence, but they have still barely started their lives without her. Any romantic relationship Medaka could have with them would have to be tempered by the fact that they would need to keep some distance so as not to regress that growth. It would need to be proceeded gradually (i.e. through dating/courtship), rather than stepping immediately into such ostentatiously unified/intimate roles as "wife"/"husband". The dynamics of their relationships are highly different from the one Medaka has with Kumagawa, whereby Kumagawa's independence from Medaka has long been established already.

If you ask me, "I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" says that Medaka wouldn't mind getting closer to Misogi (yes, even that close). This is in contrast to her relationships with Akune and Zenkichi, where the important thing is actually their ability to stand individually. So, as far as shipping material, I think it's fairly favourable for Misogi. In terms of overall possibilities regarding whether the romance in Medaka Box will actually go somewhere, I think Kumagawa is in fact extremely obvious second choice.
I don't get why your analysing it so seriously. It was just a casual statement from Medaka to Kumagawa. I really doubt Medaka Box will actually go that far in romance. For one thing Zenkichi fans (believe it or not) will rage and Medaka would just gain more haters if she actually hooked up with Kumagawa. Hell depending on how it's written even Kumagawa might lose popularity. It's far better to just stick with being a parody/battle manga then go that far into the romance territory.
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Old 2012-04-20, 18:38   Link #8119
suikostar
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Possibly. Rather than Akune or Hinokage, though, the first other candidate I would think of is Miyakonojou. The first factor in Medaka throwing out that statement like that was that she was responding to Kumagawa's confession/statement of romantic interest. This cuts out Hinokage, as the pool should obviously be limited to persons whom think of Medaka a woman, and whom Medaka thinks of as a man.

On a separate aspect, Medaka's statement was explicitly spoken in connection with marriage. This has specific implications which I think are fairly limited to individuals like Kumagawa. The thing is that marriage in Japan has a lot of formal/social implications which don't necessarily have any connection to romanticism; particularly in the case of upper class marriages, which is is most definitely the scenario for Medaka herself. In saying that she would consent to a practically immediate marriage to Kumagawa, Medaka is confessing first of all that she has a trust/confidence in Misogi regarding all of those social conditions. The romantic aspect is secondary (I am not certain Medaka has any determined concept of romanticism), and is suitable to be left for later; the aforementioned "respect" we have been talking is the primary basis for having confidence that that will somehow work out.

The point here I am saying, then, is that this is actually a fairly specific compliment (or a compliment in a fairly specific area) from Medaka to Kumagawa. Certainly Medaka would probably agree to "go out" with Zenkichi or Kouki (after she's thought about various other people's feelings, I guess, if she noticed them). However, on the issue of marriage, I think Medaka's "If it's you, Kumagawa" applies more or less specifically. This is because Kumagawa is one of the rare people actually romantically interested in Medaka who hasn't gone through the whole admiration/idolation "Medaka is perfect/always right" stage. Zenkichi/Kouki may have matured/stepped towards independence, but they have still barely started their lives without her. Any romantic relationship Medaka could have with them would have to be tempered by the fact that they would need to keep some distance so as not to regress that growth. It would need to be proceeded gradually (i.e. through dating/courtship), rather than stepping immediately into such ostentatiously unified/intimate roles as "wife"/"husband". The dynamics of their relationships are highly different from the one Medaka has with Kumagawa, whereby Kumagawa's independence from Medaka has long been established already.

If you ask me, "I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" says that Medaka wouldn't mind getting closer to Misogi (yes, even that close). This is in contrast to her relationships with Akune and Zenkichi, where the important thing is actually their ability to stand individually. So, as far as shipping material, I think it's fairly favourable for Misogi. In terms of overall possibilities regarding whether the romance in Medaka Box will actually go somewhere, I think Kumagawa is in fact extremely obvious second choice.
Wrong, at least in my opinion. Take the suroundings when Medaka said that she would marry Kumagawa.She was about to be married to one of those EXTREME weirdos, and be4 that she says "If it's you, Kumagawa", so that was probably an implication on what lv Kumagawa was and on what those 5 suitors.
"If it's you, Kumagawa." and I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" make a clear statement if you take into account the current situation and what was happening.

Also remember the dark scene behind Medaka when she said she woul marry him. Such things can mean a lot in a manga. About Zenkichi bein graduated from Medaka, there was actually no need for that, he was by her side because he loves her, in last arc he showed that his love was true and behaved as mature as it could have been done.
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Old 2012-04-20, 19:25   Link #8120
FFXFan13
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Originally Posted by suikostar View Post
Wrong, at least in my opinion. Take the suroundings when Medaka said that she would marry Kumagawa.She was about to be married to one of those EXTREME weirdos, and be4 that she says "If it's you, Kumagawa", so that was probably an implication on what lv Kumagawa was and on what those 5 suitors.
"If it's you, Kumagawa." and I'd marry you tomorrow, Kumagawa" make a clear statement if you take into account the current situation and what was happening.

Also remember the dark scene behind Medaka when she said she woul marry him. Such things can mean a lot in a manga. About Zenkichi bein graduated from Medaka, there was actually no need for that, he was by her side because he loves her, in last arc he showed that his love was true and behaved as mature as it could have been done.
Well, in the end all it comes down to is, some people want to see it as ship teasing, some people don't. There are perfectly logical arguments for both sides, so it's better to agree to disagree then claim one side is "wrong".
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