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Old 2012-05-01, 04:56   Link #8461
ziggi92
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Didn't that already happen, I don't really see the need to repeat that. Sure neither went all out and Zenkichi most probably improved, but he's not on Zenkichi's to beat list and it'd take a heck of a lot for that to happen even if we assume Kanome was dark side all this time, Zenkichi batted an eyelid at Shiranui joining Kumagawa, Kumagawa of all people, the same dude who blinded him and who he was more than willing to sacrifice his life in order to kill just to save the world from Kumagawa.
I think they have never went out full battle against each other so it would be fun to see who is stronger but fight between Kumagawa and Zenkichi that would be interesting if Devil Style stop All fiction.
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Old 2012-05-01, 05:33   Link #8462
Xiyon
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Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
I think they have never went out full battle against each other so it would be fun to see who is stronger but fight between Kumagawa and Zenkichi that would be interesting if Devil Style stop All fiction.
I don't think Devil Style can stop All Fiction. DS doesn't nullify powers; just luck/fate/destiny. If Zen and Kuma were to fight again, Zen would be nullifying Kuma's "fate to lose" and he'd finally score a definite win. Unless of course Zen masters DS and can selectively direct it at his enemies/himself instead of being active all the time...
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Old 2012-05-01, 05:42   Link #8463
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Originally Posted by Xiyon View Post
I don't think Devil Style can stop All Fiction. DS doesn't nullify powers; just luck/fate/destiny. If Zen and Kuma were to fight again, Zen would be nullifying Kuma's "fate to lose" and he'd finally score a definite win. Unless of course Zen masters DS and can selectively direct it at his enemies/himself instead of being active all the time...
No, Kumagawa would still lose, Zenkichi would nullify Kumagawa's fate to lose but that doesn't mean anything if you don't put in the effort needed to win. All Devil Style does is level the playing field. Given how lazy Kumagawa is I very much doubt he'll win.
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Old 2012-05-01, 05:56   Link #8464
Xiyon
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No, Kumagawa would still lose, Zenkichi would nullify Kumagawa's fate to lose but that doesn't mean anything if you don't put in the effort needed to win. All Devil Style does is level the playing field. Given how lazy Kumagawa is I very much doubt he'll win.
Unless Zenkichi learned another way to counter All Fiction apart from 'Minus Nullifying System' or whatever it was called, I sincerely doubt Zen could pull off a win. Don't get me wrong- I'm a Zen fan- but as much as I'd like to see Zen win, there's just no way it is possible, and Devil Style will actually work against him in this fight.

If you remember, Zen only won because of the ruleset during their match. Once the winner was declared, Kuma retaliated showcasing All Fiction in all its broken glory, and Zen needed to resort to a double suicide, which still couldn't kill Kumagawa. I can't see how any amount of hard work can stop a reality-bending power.

I'm basing my statements in the situation where both parties go all-out. We all know Kuma does still want to win, and so can be motivated to do so.
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Old 2012-05-01, 06:16   Link #8465
Tenchi Hou Take
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TBF Zen would probably never attempt to kill Kumagawa again and wouldn't want to either so that part of All fiction would matter. It's more a matter of if Kumagawa could actually defeat Zenkichi or whether Zen can manage to avoid Kumagawa's use of all fiction or not.

The weird thing about All fiction is that it's one of few abilities that rely on casuality. So basically rather than undoing something it makes it so something never happened in the first place which is why Kumagawa can't be killed. The issue is Zen's ability also completely fucks over casuality and alters future events so that luck and fate are removed.

This means Devil style could potentially screw over all fiction or it could not depending on how Nisio plans to do it. Going by descriptions it's one of the few abilities that devil style could potentially be a direct counter for. It wouldn't actually surprise me if it was as All fiction would likely be one of those abilities Zen dislikes more than anything, since it blinded him and made his sacrifice worthless.
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Old 2012-05-01, 06:43   Link #8466
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there is already criticism of the novel medaka box on 2ch....
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Old 2012-05-01, 06:48   Link #8467
Xiyon
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF Zen would probably never attempt to kill Kumagawa again and wouldn't want to either so that part of All fiction would matter. It's more a matter of if Kumagawa could actually defeat Zenkichi or whether Zen can manage to avoid Kumagawa's use of all fiction or not.

The weird thing about All fiction is that it's one of few abilities that rely on casuality. So basically rather than undoing something it makes it so something never happened in the first place which is why Kumagawa can't be killed. The issue is Zen's ability also completely fucks over casuality and alters future events so that luck and fate are removed.

This means Devil style could potentially screw over all fiction or it could not depending on how Nisio plans to do it. Going by descriptions it's one of the few abilities that devil style could potentially be a direct counter for. It wouldn't actually surprise me if it was as All fiction would likely be one of those abilities Zen dislikes more than anything, since it blinded him and made his sacrifice worthless.
I'm not saying Zen will try to kill Kumagawa again. ^_^; I highlighted that point because that was the only way Zen could have beaten Kuma with AF released- "double KO"- and still Zen couldn't manage to win.

I might have to re-read DS's description but I don't recall it manipulating causality as well. From what I understood, it 'evens the playing field' by nullifying luck/fate/destiny. In Medaka's case, instead of her 'main character' charisma swaying the students like before, she lost because she really did give a horrible speech and Zen made the students realize they were acting spoiled by relying on Medaka to solve all their problems. Zen's speech was just better than the other candidate's; if Medaka actually said something better than "I need to be president but I can't tell you why", then she would have probably won, or at least had a better chance at winning.

If it came down to another fist-fight/sports tournament/brain quiz, Medaka would still obliterate Zen because she's just that strong/smart.

On Kuma's side of things, Zen could kick Kuma for all he wants; Kuma can just erase his injuries. The only thing holding Kuma back from winning is his 'fate to lose'. I think the card battles illustrated how bad his luck is. Let's say DS was active in that game; Kumagawa won't have such an appalling hand, and now stands a chance at winning.

In an actual DS vs AF fight though, I don't think DS stands a chance.
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Old 2012-05-01, 07:02   Link #8468
silvercover
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I like how the author didnt just scrap and forget the flask plan, and is still making it give impact to the story with a first generation in zen's council.
ah, I really like how zenkichi's quite good at coming up with strategies during battles, rather than fighting back directly like most protagonists do. I do hope we see a serious fight with zenkichi again.
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Old 2012-05-01, 07:03   Link #8469
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Xiyon View Post
I'm not saying Zen will try to kill Kumagawa again. ^_^; I highlighted that point because that was the only way Zen could have beaten Kuma with AF released, and still Zen couldn't manage to win.

I might have to re-read DS's description but I don't recall it manipulating causality as well. From what I understood, it 'evens the playing field' by nullifying luck/fate/destiny. In Medaka's case, instead of her 'main character' charisma swaying the students like before, she lost because she really did give a horrible speech and Zen made the students realize they were acting spoiled by relying on Medaka to solve all their problems. Zen's speech was just better than the other candidate's; if Medaka actually said something better than "I need to be president but I can't tell you why", then she would have probably won, or at least had a better chance at winning.

If it came down to another fist-fight/sports tournament/brain quiz, Medaka would still obliterate Zen because she's just that strong/smart.

On Kuma's side of things, Zen could kick Kuma for all he wants; Kuma can just erase his injuries. The only thing holding Kuma back from winning is his 'fate to lose'. I think the card battles illustrated how bad his luck is.
Umm what you just described is manipulating casuality, it doesn't manipulate it to Zens will but it manipulates it none the less. Should their be nine red balls in a bag and one white, if we went by usual destiny, if one was destined to pick up that white ball they'd pick up that white ball regardless of the odds. Devil makes it so that their very likely to pick that red ball. Now if you change that into the lottery you'll see how that picking up the white ball becomes a bigger consequence. Consider all around us theirs millions of things determined by probability, Devil style by simply existing is an ability that alters the future because there's confirmed to be "fate" in Medaka box's world Zen's ability completely alters the future. All fiction is also manipulating fate but in one very specific manner, it denys events at occurs. The issue between the two is should Devil style deem all fiction to be considered as fate it could completely screw up that ability. While All fiction in turn perhaps altering devil style. Basically both abilities are F you to "god" without turning the user to a "god", though all fiction turns the user closer to a god like being. All fiction can only deny things it cannot create things, devil only removes fates involvement it does allow the users will to become fate.

Going by the skills descriptions this is a possibility of them directly interacting with each other, whether Nisio actually does it, is another question entirely.
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Old 2012-05-01, 07:36   Link #8470
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I am unironically enjoying the discussion of Zenkichi vs Kumagawa, as both sides are bringing really good, manga-backed points, and it hasn't descended into name calling. :]
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Old 2012-05-01, 07:47   Link #8471
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I am unironically enjoying the discussion of Zenkichi vs Kumagawa, as both sides are bringing really good, manga-backed points, and it hasn't descended into name calling. :]

Ah yes, it's quite rare in this thread(okay not really, but not that frequent either).
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Old 2012-05-01, 08:04   Link #8472
Xiyon
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Umm what you just described is manipulating casuality, it doesn't manipulate it to Zens will but it manipulates it none the less. Should their be nine red balls in a bag and one white, if we went by usual destiny, if one was destined to pick up that white ball they'd pick up that white ball regardless of the odds. Devil makes it so that their very likely to pick that red ball. Now if you change that into the lottery you'll see how that picking up the white ball becomes a bigger consequence. Consider all around us theirs millions of things determined by probability, Devil style by simply existing is an ability that alters the future because there's confirmed to be "fate" in Medaka box's world Zen's ability completely alters the future. All fiction is also manipulating fate but in one very specific manner, it denys events at occurs. The issue between the two is should Devil style deem all fiction to be considered as fate it could completely screw up that ability. While All fiction in turn perhaps altering devil style. Basically both abilities are F you to "god" without turning the user to a "god", though all fiction turns the user closer to a god like being. All fiction can only deny things it cannot create things, devil only removes fates involvement it does allow the users will to become fate.

Going by the skills descriptions this is a possibility of them directly interacting with each other, whether Nisio actually does it, is another question entirely.
Not necessarily. Causality is literally 'cause and effect'; X happened because Y happened, so if Y didn't happen, then X won't happen. I'm trying to describe two situations, 'causality' and 'fate', which might seem similar at glance but really aren't. There is some intermingling though, but it's mostly down to perspective. Fate would be X happens regardless of Y happening.

I'll go back to the election since that's the only situation we've seen DS exert its full effect. If DS wasn't active, then Medaka would win the election regardless of what she says, simply because she's the 'main character'. She could say "vote for me because I will eat all your babies and that will cure cancer" and she'd still secure the votes. She has given speeches that don't make sense in a normal setting, and yet her listeners get swayed on the spot, all in typical 'shounen main character' fashion.

What I'm trying to get at is it's fate/destiny/luck at play. In a more generalized view, you could say Medaka's plot armor ignores causality, making her win at anything.

To address your example, DS wouldn't make the person more likely to pick the red ball simply as a big middle finger to fate, but because there are 9 red balls and only 1 white. Originally, the person was fated to pick up the white ball no matter the odds; now, the odds actually do matter.

On the other hand, AF manipulates causality. It erases the 'cause' so there's no 'effect'. It is not limited to/has little to do with fate/destiny/luck, and has enormous benefits in battle.

Now, let's say Zenkichi and Kumagawa were to fight again. Kuma's fate isn't to use All Fiction, but to lose. What Zenkichi's DS does is it alters that pre-determined future, and now Kuma stands a chance at winning. So, Zenkichi throws a punch and breaks Kumagawa's ribs. No biggie; AF erases that punch from happening, and now he doesn't have any broken ribs, and the battle continues.

Was it fate that lead Zenkichi to throwing that punch and breaking Kumagawa's ribs? No. With DS active, Zenkichi could easily just have kicked Kuma. However, no matter what Zenkichi does, Kumagawa's AF can erase the cause, and thus nullify the effect.

If DS wasn't active, Kuma's ribs breaking would have continued into some random and strange series of events/'coincidences' that would have lead to him losing, simply because he is fated to lose, even with AF active. It won't make sense, or it's extremely situational to the point that the answer would just be 'fate'.

Originally, the odds were against Kumagawa despite his game-breaking ability. Now, the odds are gone and Kumagawa has free reign to wreak havoc with AF.

So, the battle continues, Zenkichi keeps trying to pummel Kumagawa into submission, and Kuma keeps using AF to nullify his injuries. Zenkichi eventually tires, Kumagawa throws a punch, and Zenkichi falls because really, what else can he do? Like I said, I'm a Zen fan, but unless Zen came to this fight prepared and with a method that can actually seal Kumagawa's AF, there's really no chance he can win, since DS just erased his chance. I'd even go as far to say that Zen's actually better off without DS for this fight. ^_^;; Maybe if fate were at play, Kumagawa ends up getting tired of using AF before Zen gets exhausted fighting, and thus Kuma loses. With DS, though, we're not sure if that will happen. All we know is AF is still over-powered and Zenkichi's still, well, Zenkichi. No perses mode or anything that can actually deal lasting injuries...

I can see where you're getting at, but I still stand by Zenkichi's skill not actually manipulating causality but instead erases 'plot armor'/fate/destiny/luck. And to be perfectly honest, I've always hated philosophy as a subject, so I don't want to go into detail about "does fate underlie causality (and thus DS can affect AF) or not?" @_@ My personal opinion would be that it doesn't, but I'm basing that on real life, where it's still uncertain if fate does exist. We know causality exists (otherwise, fields such as forensics would be a load of crap), but 'fate'?

On another note, assuming the Jokers did lose, then that's yet another machination of fate as dictated by the author~. There is no conceivable way for the Jokers to actually lose in a fight, and yet they did (or implied to, anyways...)

Last edited by Xiyon; 2012-05-01 at 08:27.
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Old 2012-05-01, 09:56   Link #8473
Last Carpet
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. We all know Kuma does still want to win, and so can be motivated to do so.
I thought Misogi's inability to claim victory came from his own mindset.

The fact is that he's incredibly powerful. With All-Fiction he can erase the outcome of anything and turn it into nothing. Not to mention Book Maker which can drag you down to his level in everything. He's a strong fighter and skilled manipulator who can find weak points in everything. He could succeed if he tried, and he has tried....

But because of the constant failure in his life, he isn't aware of how strong, charismatic and capable he really is. He's like the opposite of Medaka who succeeds so much and so easily that she thinks nothing of it and honestly believes that everyone can do what she does with the same amount of effort. Since he's never experienced fullfillment or triumph before, he thinks that it doesn't even exist for him.

Maybe he can be motivated to win, maybe he can reach his objective and find the most favorable outcome.

But no matter what he does he never feels like he won.
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Old 2012-05-01, 10:49   Link #8474
Randrak42
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I miss the old...simple discussions about who's harem the new female character will belong to...
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:02   Link #8475
kantou
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the character appeared in the novel are

Nabeshima, Onigase, Kuma, Yobuko, Megusuno,Juunichou Yabumi , Iizuka, Mera, Tachiarai, Kamimutsuro
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:11   Link #8476
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I miss the old...simple discussions about who's harem the new female character will belong to...
Zenkichi's, isn't it obvious?
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:16   Link #8477
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Zenkichi's, isn't it obvious?
Now we're talking!
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:22   Link #8478
Darth SpiderDen
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I for one was enjoying the argument between Zenkichi's DS and Kuma's AF: who would win over what. Nice interesting points.
Just one thing: this is still a manga, the author decides what wins what in what manner he very well wants.
And from a mangaka known to troll his audience, anything is possible with DS. We only saw it in action during the election. It's too early and with little results to do a thorough analysis on DS, it's uses and possibilities.
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:36   Link #8479
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Kuma is a looser he's never won a fight and never change.
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:57   Link #8480
Xiyon
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Now we're talking!
Aye (and I wish)! XD

Though, I kinda like my Dark Lord Hipster-kun idea...

If this doesn't come true, maybe a parody fanfic is in order o___-

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Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen View Post
I for one was enjoying the argument between Zenkichi's DS and Kuma's AF: who would win over what. Nice interesting points.
Just one thing: this is still a manga, the author decides what wins what in what manner he very well wants.
And from a mangaka known to troll his audience, anything is possible with DS. We only saw it in action during the election. It's too early and with little results to do a thorough analysis on DS, it's uses and possibilities.
That is true, but Nisio's trolling doesn't really feel like the typical rage-inducing trolling people do. His work feels more like cockblocking than anything else. From my experience with his Monogatari series, anyways; I don't have a clue about Zaregoto, and I'm still trying to find time to watch Katanagatari.

As far as Monogatari goes though, he's always been quite consistent with his characters and concepts (to the point where Araragi hasn't actually won any fights since the exorcists o_0 He's still an awesome lead, though XD).

Take the recent Nisemonogatari for example. Karen states that Kagenui's stronger than her. In the actual fight, Koyomi couldn't lay a hand on Kagenui, while when he fought Karen, he was at least able to counter some of her moves (albeit in vain).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
I thought Misogi's inability to claim victory came from his own mindset.

The fact is that he's incredibly powerful. With All-Fiction he can erase the outcome of anything and turn it into nothing. Not to mention Book Maker which can drag you down to his level in everything. He's a strong fighter and skilled manipulator who can find weak points in everything. He could succeed if he tried, and he has tried....

But because of the constant failure in his life, he isn't aware of how strong, charismatic and capable he really is. He's like the opposite of Medaka who succeeds so much and so easily that she thinks nothing of it and honestly believes that everyone can do what she does with the same amount of effort. Since he's never experienced fullfillment or triumph before, he thinks that it doesn't even exist for him.

Maybe he can be motivated to win, maybe he can reach his objective and find the most favorable outcome.

But no matter what he does he never feels like he won.
Maybe it's a combination? Or more like, he can't win when it counts. I mean, he utterly destroyed the..er...what were they called again- Plus 6?- that has to count for something, especially since Unzen was there, and yet he doesn't seem to think so.

Regardless, Nisio's been hammering the point since the end of Minus 13 arc that Kuma's fated to lose. The card battle being the most obvious example.
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