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Old 2012-05-01, 12:06   Link #8481
FFXFan13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Zenkichi's, isn't it obvious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Now we're talking!
Can we please stop talking about Zenkichi's supposed harem? It's seriously beginning to get on my nerves, and as rude as I tend to be normally, which isn't intentional by the way, when I start getting annoyed I start getting deliberately rude, and offensive and I'd very much like to avoid that if I can help that.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:09   Link #8482
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Xiyon View Post
Not necessarily. Causality is literally 'cause and effect'; X happened because Y happened, so if Y didn't happen, then X won't happen. I'm trying to describe two situations, 'causality' and 'fate', which might seem similar at glance but really aren't. There is some intermingling though, but it's mostly down to perspective. Fate would be X happens regardless of Y happening.

I'll go back to the election since that's the only situation we've seen DS exert its full effect. If DS wasn't active, then Medaka would win the election regardless of what she says, simply because she's the 'main character'. She could say "vote for me because I will eat all your babies and that will cure cancer" and she'd still secure the votes. She has given speeches that don't make sense in a normal setting, and yet her listeners get swayed on the spot, all in typical 'shounen main character' fashion.

What I'm trying to get at is it's fate/destiny/luck at play. In a more generalized view, you could say Medaka's plot armor ignores causality, making her win at anything.

To address your example, DS wouldn't make the person more likely to pick the red ball simply as a big middle finger to fate, but because there are 9 red balls and only 1 white. Originally, the person was fated to pick up the white ball no matter the odds; now, the odds actually do matter.
Actually your misinterpreating Devil style, it doesn't simply it doesn't simply revert the world back to real word probablity, it nullfies all coincidence. Meaning it's It's physically impossible for you to pick two red balls in a row. It doesn't reduce luck it removes it full stop. That's why it reality warps. It's completely fair, luck isn't a factor at all. That's what Aijimu means that you won't come up with battle plan at the end of a battle. That's why Aijimu said you will never come across a rival in a pinch. Normal luck their would there's still a chance regardless how small.

http://www.mangareader.net/medaka-box/138/20
http://www.mangareader.net/medaka-box/138/19

That's why Devil style creates an entirely fair match luck, doesn't factor at all. It constantly manipulates reality to prevent coincidences, all fiction selectively chooses removes cause. Neither are the natural states and and both actively reality warp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
Can we please stop talking about Zenkichi's supposed harem? It's seriously beginning to get on my nerves, and as rude as I tend to be normally, which isn't intentional by the way, when I start getting annoyed I start getting deliberately rude, and offensive and I'd very much like to avoid that if I can help that.
What does that matter, surely you can see how obnoxious your being by doing that, should you start talking about Kikaijima and the other members of the naked apron alliance liking Kumagawa we wouldn't start saying could you please stop doing that because it's retarded. Your perfectly in your right to talk about that with other people in this thread and there's no logical reason why we wouldn't want you to do that.

If you dislike something something so much you don't even want people even talking about it when it's not actually trolling you in any way but simply talking about the possible plot instances or liking a character then you should re-evaluate yourself.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:12   Link #8483
Darth SpiderDen
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So basically: either Zenkichi is now a God or the Anti-God. One of the two.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:26   Link #8484
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen View Post
So basically: either Zenkichi is now a God or the Anti-God. One of the two.
Since he can't create or do anything, like creation etc, he's would be closer to anti. It's an extremely weird ability thinking about it, it's puts you at a disadvantage of never having a coincidence whether good or bad, but it also does the same for anyone else around you.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:32   Link #8485
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Since he can't create or do anything, like creation etc, he's would be closer to anti. It's an extremely weird thinking about it, it's puts you at a disadvantage of never having a coincidence whether good or bad, but it also does the same for anyone else.
Hence the creation of the new Class of Abnormal he belongs to.

Devil Style is super negative(no luck or coincidences to help him) and at the same time super positive (prevents luck and coincidence from helping his opponent)

It's just as much as an advantage as it is a disadvantage

Not a Plus
Not A Minus
But a Zero
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:39   Link #8486
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Actually your misinterpreating Devil style, it doesn't simply it doesn't simply revert the world back to real word probablity, it nullfies all coincidence. Meaning it's It's physically impossible for you to pick two red balls in a row. It doesn't reduce luck it removes it full stop. That's why it reality warps. It's completely fair, luck isn't a factor at all. That's what Aijimu means that you won't come up with battle plan at the end of a battle. That's why Aijimu said you will never come across a rival in a pinch. Normal luck their would there's still a chance regardless how small.

http://www.mangareader.net/medaka-box/138/20
http://www.mangareader.net/medaka-box/138/19

That's why Devil style creates an entirely fair match luck, doesn't factor at all. It constantly manipulates reality to prevent coincidences, all fiction selectively chooses removes cause. Neither are the natural states and and both actively reality warp.
Xiyon's actually got it right. What you're talking about is Bookmaker--that creates a completely even fight/playing field. There's nothing at all within Devil Style which suggests things like "it's impossible to pick two red balls in a row", otherwise the elections imbalanced voting results (2% Medaka, 64% Zenkichi, 32% the cadet trainees) wouldn't be possible. The only thing which Devil Style negates is predestined narrative fate, i.e. things the author would normally make happen in order to create convenient outcomes for his story. Like the main character getting a miraculous power up, or the main character surviving the enemy's secret attack by some hidden coincidence, or the main character running across the person who would become his destined rival just before a fight, etc.. Devil Style basically simply removes plot armour and narrative cliches. It's a skill that's pretty much only ever useful when you're going up against a "Main Character". Alternatively, it might also be useful if you're a jobber who is supposed to lose against a debuting new villain in order to show off how powerful that new villain is...but the point is, Devil Style doesn't actually do anything to affect the combatants' abilities, it simply removes the effect of outside meta-narrative influences.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:41   Link #8487
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Xiyon's actually got it right. What you're talking about is Bookmaker--that creates a completely even fight/playing field. There's nothing at all within Devil Style which suggests things like "it's impossible to pick two red balls in a row", otherwise the elections imbalanced voting results (2% Medaka, 64% Zenkichi, 32% the cadet trainees) wouldn't be possible. The only thing which Devil Style negates is predestined narrative fate, i.e. things the author would normally make happen in order to create convenient outcomes for his story. Like the main character getting a miraculous power up, or the main character surviving the enemy's secret attack by some hidden coincidence, or the main character running across the person who would become his destined rival just before a fight, etc.. Devil Style basically simply removes plot armour and narrative cliches. It's a skill that's pretty much only ever useful when you're going up against a "Main Character".
No It doesn't make it so the two people have the same stats like bookmaker does, it removes luck. As in completely removes luck. That's why Zenkichi said I want to beat Medaka without luck or or a Miracle and why it's described as an ability that nullfies coincidence not an ability that creates an enterly fair and random coincidence.

The pages I've linked make that obvious. Aijimu speaks in won'ts and never, she doesn't at all say unlikely as those things could very well still happen, if normal luck played a part. Unless their are major translation errors in that page...

"Devil style is an ability that nullfies ANY coincidence" Aijimu's own words.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:48   Link #8488
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Normally I dont have problems regarding understanding even the most seriously depraved plot development but the ability of Zenkichi makes my eyes roll.

Could someone explain me then why did his ability call the Idols?
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:53   Link #8489
FFXFan13
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
re-evaluate yourself.
And how would I go about doing that? I already know, it's a problem, and an incredibly stupid one at that, but it's not like I can help the fact that something bugs the hell out of me.

Believe me, I've been trying.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:54   Link #8490
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
Normally I dont have problems regarding understanding even the most seriously depraved plot development but the ability of Zenkichi makes my eyes roll.

Could someone explain me then why did his ability call the Idols?
Basically they were the best people for the job, so they got hired, normally without it certain coincidences would occur that would prevent them from getting said, usually because of various forms of good or bad luck. Devil style prevented those and so they got the job.

It also prevented the girl who Kumagawa met in the the oneshot, from meeting him due to coincidence.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:57   Link #8491
Mars Mode
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My head hurts better not think about it too deeply.

So they were the normal outcome. Not the most crazy, neither the most fated just the normal outcome. I think I understand thank you.
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:59   Link #8492
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
Normally I dont have problems regarding understanding even the most seriously depraved plot development but the ability of Zenkichi makes my eyes roll.

Could someone explain me then why did his ability call the Idols?
It didn't call the idols, it just prevented them from...not being professional.
For example, in their introduction they showed that they were unique and most people must have thought that they would have some relation to the plot (like having backstories related to someone in the school or something) but Zen's Devil Style simply removed the possibility of such a coincidence happening, thus they went in, were professional and left.

It's like...you order a pizza. In a manga the pizza guy could turn out to be your long lost brother, that would be a huge coincidence. You would meet, learn about your relationship and then ask him to come inside, have a beer, talk about the past...then help him with his gambling debts and so on. However with Devil Style the pizza guy would show up, deliver his pizza and go away to his next delivery...because he has no relation to you since such a coincidence would be impossible.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:00   Link #8493
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
And how would I go about doing that? I already know, it's a problem, and an incredibly stupid one at that, but it's not like I can help the fact that something bugs the hell out of me.

Believe me, I've been trying.
Then just don't say anything. Or simply ignore/blank out those posts. If I see feel annoyed at something despite it being completely irrational and point and doesn't do anything good to case other people to go along with my irrationalities then I ignore it or stay away from it.

There's plenty of times where you'll come across this in your life time sometimes people will accomodate (usually because they'll be some sort of reason to rationalise stopping e.g because of trolling or something else, and sometimes they won't, you'll simply have to deal with these things. They come often, I assure you.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:03   Link #8494
Randrak42
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OMG! Devil Style also prevents the possibility that a random gust of wind blows up girl's skirts so we get panty-shots! NOOOOOOOO!
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:05   Link #8495
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
OMG! Devil Style also prevents the possibility that a random gust of wind blows up girl's skirts so we get panty-shots! NOOOOOOOO!
True but it doesn't prevent purposeful panty shots. We still have Naze's love of stripping young girls.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:10   Link #8496
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
True but it doesn't prevent purposeful panty shots. We still have Naze's love of stripping young girls.
Hmmm...
This is true.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:13   Link #8497
FFXFan13
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Then just don't say anything. Or simply ignore/blank out those posts. If I see feel annoyed at something despite it being completely irrational and point and doesn't do anything good to case other people to go along with my irrationalities then I ignore it or stay away from it.
Good advice, but it doesn't help when the comments pop up out of nowhere, or in the middle of a serious discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
There's plenty of times where you'll come across this in your life time sometimes people will accomodate (usually because they'll be some sort of reason to rationalise stopping e.g because of trolling or something else, and sometimes they won't, you'll simply have to deal with these things. They come often, I assure you.
Please tell me often, isn't as frequently as I'm thinking, because, I really don't want to face the world if it is...
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
OMG! Devil Style also prevents the possibility that a random gust of wind blows up girl's skirts so we get panty-shots! NOOOOOOOO!
At least we'll still get Medaka in a Naked Apron later on, given that was the reward promised to Kumagawa.

Provided we get to see it of course.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:14   Link #8498
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by FFXFan13 View Post
Please tell me often, isn't as frequently as I'm thinking, because, I really don't want to face the world if it is...
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:15   Link #8499
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
No It doesn't make it so the two people have the same stats like bookmaker does, it removes luck. As in completely removes luck. That's why Zenkichi said I want to beat Medaka without luck or or a Miracle and why it's described as an ability that nullfies coincidence not an ability that creates an enterly fair and random coincidence.

The pages I've linked make that obvious. Aijimu speaks in won'ts and never, she doesn't at all say unlikely as those things could very well still happen, if normal luck played a part. Unless their are major translation errors in that page...
Ajimu's use of "never" reflects the fact that those are things which happen to a Main Character...while Devil Style inherently negates the concept of a "Main Character". It's not a fact that things like "bumping into a girl in the hallway" will never happen to Zenkichi again in his life (like, wtf, that'd be crazy); it's simply that such random meaningless events won't conveniently turn out to be things which are "important" to the story (like that girl turning out to be his love interest or something), and as such would never be shown.

Saying that Devil Style negates "Luck" or "Coincidence" in the way you've been using it simply takes it way too far...because when you come right down to it, "Coincidence" (or "Luck") can describe every single thing which has happened or will ever happen in the entire world. The meaning of coincidence is co-incidence as in "two (or more) things happening at the same time". If you're saying no "incidences" can ever happen together anymore, that would basically be the end/complete negation of all of reality.

Rather, it's obvious Ajimu was talking about a certain kind of coincidences--narrative coincidences, the kind of unrealistic bullshit that comes up when people make up a story. The things which you could never realistically expect in real life but accept in fiction because "hey, he's the main character". The things which, if you thought about it, are obviously too farfetched to happen in real life but which the author uses to force a certain "meaning" or "direction" into a story. Those are the only things "Devil Style" removes from around Zenkichi.
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:16   Link #8500
FFXFan13
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How much longer until we colonise the moon? Or Mars?
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