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Old 2012-06-08, 03:34   Link #9241
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
They're fighting the suitors in order from weakest to strongest
Not according to the current chapter. This suitor took four others to beat and is the closest to Kurokami. I.e the strongest, whom Emukae is about to beat *somehow*. I'd go with her getting a performance boost due to Hitoyoshi love or something.

Sui was not even eliminated to begin with, so she didn't even get her chance to test herself against anyone except Nienami, the weakest. You don't know if she's the second weakest to begin with. Given that Naze took her out, though, that's doubtful, as Naze is probably stronger than Wazinuka and Emukae and definitely stronger than Zenkichi - the weakest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
the whole arc is proceeding according to narrative convention. DS was supposed to prevent that.
Not It's not, the only convention you've mentioned is above, and it's totally bogus. Devil Style is supposed to prevent Fate's whim's, not completely stop a possibility. There's still chances and probabilities in this even ground created by DS, just that no-one's favored in the lottery this time.

Furthermore, DS will only ever give you the illusion of narrative conventions being erased. It's not actually going to happen because Nisio will keep following them in the real world to sell his manga.

Still though, he has shown us the 'diversions' from the conventional main-character Anshin' talked about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think that he's either managed to turn it off, it's been erased, or events are being manipulated to look as though it is no longer having any effect.
And you've reached this assumption based on just that?

Just because a possibility is forming? I gotta say that's pretty bad reasoning. Especially when so much more supports the skill staying. Such as with Zenkichi being the absolute weakest in the Student Council and not the strongest, a narrative convention Medaka Box used to follow, but dosen't anymore for some obscure reason(DS).

Or even, the entire last arc, being reduced to nothing because Zenkichi's personal skill is gone? That's what made the whole concept of the skill interesting. It's the right to do what is wrong. A skill where fate has no sway over.

Spoiler:


'Without any Plus and without any Minus. He dosen't have anything. In exchange, there won't be a strange twist of fate. Hitoyoshi has that right, he isn't a Plus or a Minus, but a Zero. My new world's main character'.

Guess whose the main character of Medaka Box nowadays? Zenkichi. Guess who will never have a strange twist of fate? Zenkichi.

I'm sorry, usually I'd give a little wiggle room for argumentation, but this is a point I just see as dead wrong based on absolutely nothing that I frankly thing lesses the enjoyment of the manga by destroying one of the most intersting things of the last arc. There's nothing supporting this notion, at all. Nevermind it trampling on the entire last arc's development of Zenkichi.

Of course, if it is reavealed to be true later, I can only call it bad writting and shrug at the author.

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-06-08 at 03:53.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:09   Link #9242
Kaisos Erranon
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...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.

You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest.

Also, I find that Zenkichi is the "weakest" of the Student Council in the same way that Kumagawa is the "weakest"; that is to say, he isn't at all.

That said, I should say though that I find Devil Style uninteresting. A very strict reading of how Ajimu described it would imply that nothing of note would happen to Zenkichi, ever.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:57   Link #9243
Sol Falling
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lol. Emukae x Zenkichi end incoming? Seriously, Emukae's love been receiving way too much focus recently to not be setting up something.

CxC's translation had Kanaino calling Kugurugi a "word user", although the last page identified her Style as "Disassembly" (/"Deconstruction" lol). Anyone have any idea what in particular was meant by that (Kugurugi being a "word user", that is) or am I gonna have to look through the raw myself?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.

You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest.

Also, I find that Zenkichi is the "weakest" of the Student Council in the same way that Kumagawa is the "weakest"; that is to say, he isn't at all.

That said, I should say though that I find Devil Style uninteresting. A very strict reading of how Ajimu described it would imply that nothing of note would happen to Zenkichi, ever.
Altered God Mode: Zenkichi edition was stated to have been something he developed before they even had the election, with the help of Shiranui and Ajimu. Aesthetically it heavily resembles Hinokage's appearance after he obtained Theme Song, and conceptually we can infer that it is similar to Medaka's Altered God Mode, whereby she wields the full potential of the power she has via War God Mode but at the same time retaining the perfect control of her mind/emotions that she has normally (i.e. without falling into mindless anger). Basically, all Altered God Mode: Zenkichi edition does is allow Zenkichi to use his own abilities to his full potential. It is hardly much of an overpowered ability or asspull, considering that full potential is still not much compared to the truly monstrous abilities of characters like Medaka (see the trouble Zenkichi still ended up having taking down Nienami).

I disagree that Devil Style has disappeared, but I also disagree that it has any extended effect on characters not directly involved with Zenkichi. Saying that Medaka can "lose" now against any random smuck or be turned into a "damsel in distress" sort of thing is dumb, the only opponent who can cancel out Medaka's MC/Abnormal aura for the moment is Ajimu/Zenkichi. Outside of occasional interactions with Zenkichi, all of the other Medaka Box character's universal auras should still be operating just as they always have. It's only because of that that things like getting kidnapped during a crazy wedding fighting tournament are possible in the first place.

Anyway, I'm gonna look forward to seeing Emukae somehow beating the supposedly strongest Suitor, lol . Maybe this will be a good point to step away from the conventional "shounen battle" arc structure; same way that the Flask Plan mixed things up once it reached the Akune vs. Koga and Naze fight.
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Old 2012-06-08, 05:02   Link #9244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.

You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest.
Being able to use Mars Mode isn't an asspull, he could have just figured it out. By that standard any time a character gained a new ability the readers have never seen before, it would be an asspull.

Quote:
That said, I should say though that I find Devil Style uninteresting. A very strict reading of how Ajimu described it would imply that nothing of note would happen to Zenkichi, ever.
I agree, Devil Style is something that's interesting in theory, but would be boring in reality.

In any case, if Zenkichi had any sense, he would have gotten rid of the thing. I assume the thing works on him as well, and if so, it's plain stupidity to use something that takes away your own luck. I mean, we know it works in everyday situations, since it was at work at the culture festival, apparently, so what if it messes up his everyday life?
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Old 2012-06-08, 05:24   Link #9245
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Being able to use Mars Mode isn't an asspull, he could have just figured it out. By that standard any time a character gained a new ability the readers have never seen before, it would be an asspull.



I agree, Devil Style is something that's interesting in theory, but would be boring in reality.

In any case, if Zenkichi had any sense, he would have gotten rid of the thing. I assume the thing works on him as well, and if so, it's plain stupidity to use something that takes away your own luck. I mean, we know it works in everyday situations, since it was at work at the culture festival, apparently, so what if it messes up his everyday life?
Zenkichi is(/was) a Normal, so he never had any Abnormal luck in the first place. The thing that Devil Style accomplishes is that it prevents Zenkichi from being affected by the Abnormal luck of any of the other characters. Thus "Zero"; not just "Normal", but "Normalizing". It is a decent aid against any Abnormal character Zenkichi might end up going against, although his actual results will still depend on the degree his training and preparation can compare against his opponent's base abilities.

The point about Devil Style/Zenkichi's "Zero" status in the first place is his rejection of the conventional advantages of a Main Character. This includes the escapist function of most shallow entertainment/junk fiction in general, where you basically have a generic/archetypal self-insert MC for the audience and he gets awesome abilities and goes on epic adventures so the audiences can pretend that they themselves are that awesome personally. After Nishio exaggerated the ridiculousness of the narrative conveniences this creates via Medaka to its logical conclusion, he's now developed Zenkichi as a character who stands in opposition to that. In essence, via Devil Style, Zenkichi has/will now become the antithesis to the self-satisfying self-insert Main Character. To the extent that this manga continues to actually follow Zenkichi, he will be exactly as Ajimu said, a "New World MC" who does not offer any of the conventional escapist satisfaction of standard shounen main characters.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-06-08 at 05:56.
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Old 2012-06-08, 05:47   Link #9246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
CxC's translation had Kanaino calling Kugurugi a "word user", although the last page identified her Style as "Disassembly" (/"Deconstruction" lol). Anyone have any idea what in particular was meant by that (Kugurugi being a "word user", that is) or am I gonna have to look through the raw myself?
I asked about this specifically, it is as it is. We'll see what happens next week.
Also, it didn't identify her style as such, "style" as it was written out before when referring to style vs skill, was no where near that line of text at the end
She's a disassembly type, whatever that means. Maybe she just likes to disassemble I suppose, but it said word user, much like Kanaino was a kanji user.
So it could imply that she's more about word play (shiritori anyone?) because we all know how much Nisio loves playing with words.
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Old 2012-06-08, 06:28   Link #9247
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.
Just want to point out that yes...he won. Philosophical BS doesn't really matter since she clearly lost the competition.

Devil Style simply reduces the probability of a shounen gimmick happening down to the same as any other event happening, it doesn't erase the probability of it happening completely.
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Old 2012-06-08, 07:05   Link #9248
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And now Devil Style could allow Emukae to change history and be the first minus to have a win.

Also, isn't it normal for the weakest suitor to be the first one to be defeated and subsequently left behind? That has nothing to do with Devil Style, that's pure logic.
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Old 2012-06-08, 07:34   Link #9249
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
And now Devil Style could allow Emukae to change history and be the first minus to have a win.

Also, isn't it normal for the weakest suitor to be the first one to be defeated and subsequently left behind? That has nothing to do with Devil Style, that's pure logic.
But Minuses have had wins in the series. Kumagawa is the only one that has been stated to never win and always "look" for a loss.
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Old 2012-06-08, 07:53   Link #9250
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I think the question about Devil Style depends strongly on what kind of world Medaka Box actually is, underneath all those trappings.

I personally suspect Medaka Box is a very Seinenish world, in many ways. So, if Devil Style neutralized Shouen asspulls and other "coincidental" Shounen tropes, then the real nature of the world would reveal itself.

So, there's a possibility that Devil Style basically renders the Main Character the protagonist of a Seinen world, rather than a Shouen world.

Note of course, that I'm using both terms loosely, but I wonder whether Nisio is planning to steer Medaka Box decisively into a Seinen direction.
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Old 2012-06-08, 07:57   Link #9251
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
This chapter very good. I'm hooked on Emukae. I also feel so sorry for her, wish she'd get on with Zenkichi instead of Medaka.

Actually, I wished Zenkichi preferred other girls than Medaka. Sadly dosen't seem my dream is ever coming true.
Remember the "other" girls that Ajimu suggested in the Not Equal Arc? Had things been different there and then, Emukae would have been in pole position to be that "other girl". The other is Shiranui.

Really, if an Alternate Medaka Box was a harem show revolving around Zenkichi, the girls may well be some of the most unforgettable. From the complex, and Cursed Eukae, to the teasing, enigmatic and cunning Shiranui, and if Naze was in the mix....

Nevermind, that's stuff for Fanfiction. But I do think Ajimu would have thrown Zenkichi into a harem anime had he gave the wrong answers to her after the treasure hunt.
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:01   Link #9252
Naginoura
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
What are you talking about? She outright lost the election against Zenkichi because Devil Style invalidates her protagonist existance since fate can't help her, she admitted her loss. Gaining her freedom wasn't a 'win', in the sense she didn't defeat anyone/anything in a conflict in the first place, which is the sense she was 'unbeatable' in as the main character, until Zenkichi decided to invalidate that existance.

She can lose now. I mean, depending on the range that Devil Style might work in, we don't know if it's only when Zenkichi is around. But given the current manga, which is focusing on people who are not the main character, it seems Devil Style evened the playing field universally.
As some others pointed out, I doubt Devil Style would effect Medaka now. Besides that, my point isn't whether Medaka can lose now or not or whether she, in any way at all, won in the election, it is that Nisio can still write compelling stories even if he is using invincible, rule-breaking gods. If he can write a magical girl capable of doing pretty much anything to a corner and if he can make someone as awesomely broken as Jun seem normal, he can also use Ajimu's brokenness to its full potential without having to write her out of the story.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...It's had absolutely no effect on anything since his "win" (if you can call it that) over Medaka.

You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest.
(...)
Zenkichi's version of Altered God Mode wasn't an asspull at all. He worked for it. This is him working his ass off under Ajimu and his friends' training:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
CxC's translation had Kanaino calling Kugurugi a "word user", although the last page identified her Style as "Disassembly" (/"Deconstruction" lol). Anyone have any idea what in particular was meant by that (Kugurugi being a "word user", that is) or am I gonna have to look through the raw myself?
言葉使い => ことばつかい => kotoba tsukai... As Cross said, it's pretty straightforward.
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:19   Link #9253
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Meh, my Japanese isn't really good enough to attempt that riddle yet. Still, didn't translators at least screw up the last line? Unless I'm missing something there, these are the kanji used for omimai (mimau in this cause), which is a visit to an ill person, as opposed to omiai, an arranged meeting for prospective marriage partners. Maybe that's part of the riddle, idk, but the initial translation seems wrong. Anyone with more comprehensive knowledge of the language willing to shed some light on the matter?
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Old 2012-06-08, 09:02   Link #9254
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
But Minuses have had wins in the series. Kumagawa is the only one that has been stated to never win and always "look" for a loss.
Kumagawa has a win. He won the spot of Student Council President back in middle school. With Ajimu's help. Presumably this was just another of her "impossibilities".

Based on analogy with the Plus though, I would expect most Minuses are likely to lose, but don't always lose. Just as Medaka is "more abnormal" than the others who can all roll oddly on dice or enter random passwords, Kumagawa is "more Minus" than the other Minuses. He always gets the worst hand and always loses, but the others might just get bad hands and usually lose. It's a matter of degree.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:08   Link #9255
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
I asked about this specifically, it is as it is. We'll see what happens next week.
Also, it didn't identify her style as such, "style" as it was written out before when referring to style vs skill, was no where near that line of text at the end
She's a disassembly type, whatever that means. Maybe she just likes to disassemble I suppose, but it said word user, much like Kanaino was a kanji user.
So it could imply that she's more about word play (shiritori anyone?) because we all know how much Nisio loves playing with words.
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Originally Posted by Naginoura View Post
言葉使い => ことばつかい => kotoba tsukai... As Cross said, it's pretty straightforward.
lol, well, alright. Thanks for the clarification. I guess we'll have to wait till next week then.

Is "kotoba tsukai" (言葉使い) pretty much in direct analogy to how Kanaino was described--i.e., was Kanaino a "kanji tsukai" (漢字使い)? Given Kugurugi's habit of deconstruction/disassembly, then, is there a chance that her "word using" ability actually refers to kanji compounds? I.e. controlling things via breaking down word compounds (言葉 "word-leaf", 漢字 "Chinese Han-character") into their individual components. Or would it not be accurate to describe kanji compounds as 言葉?

I am not totally thrilled at the idea that all of the Suitors might have abilities related to words/language. I mean, I can appreciate Nishio's constant play with language and I'm sure it will be educational if he goes full depth with it, but it would feel gimmicky if he devoted an entire arc/group of villains to it (although I guess that might signal the full on transition of Medaka Box into JoJo mode; i.e., the start of becoming an endlessly continuing, long-running series). On the other hand, retroactively we can also see some hints that this might be the case. In the first place, after all, Namanie's catch phrase, "rukirukirukiruki...", was also based on taking the two (phonetic) components of the verb 切る ("kiru", "to cut"), splitting them, and switching their order around.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:59   Link #9256
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Yes, Kanaino was a 漢字使い. I think Kugurugi's style has more to do with talking than the characters she is using. I think we'll need to wait until she actually does something to reach a conclusion on what she can do and whether all suitors have language-based styles.

Nisio is a huge JoJo fan. Just the thought of him going that far is intriguing~ =w=
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Old 2012-06-08, 11:30   Link #9257
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Altered God Mode: Zenkichi edition was stated to have been something he developed before they even had the election, with the help of Shiranui and Ajimu.
It's still an asspull because there was absolutely no indication that he could use such an ability until its reveal. Is it justified? Sure. Did it come completely out of left field? Hell yes.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
By that standard any time a character gained a new ability the readers have never seen before, it would be an asspull.
Well, yeah, it kind of is, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
he gets awesome abilities and goes on epic adventures so the audiences can pretend that they themselves are that awesome personally.
Isn't that exactly what he's doing now?
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:04   Link #9258
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It's an asspull when, near the end of a fight, a protagonist or someone similar is losing badly and they suddenly reveal they had that 3rd stage of their stick already figured out and had been hiding it for some odd reason and then miraculously trample the opposition. It's an asspull when a character gets never-ending boosts and when you think another one will never come/work, his father shows up and claims there is an ultimate version that can do anything but takes away everything afterwards--and then it's all restored in the end. It's an asspull when a character who once saved the know reality is treated like a kid by people who failed to protect that said reality because they trained for about a year over those events--bear in mind, these are supposed to be people over 100 years of age who trained really really long for that third level of their sticks.

Zenkichi's ability didn't come out of nowhere. He was trained to become the main character and acquired it in the course of that. Plus, at the very beginning, the sort of victory he wanted over Medaka wasn't clear. If not for Ajimu and Kumagawa's intervention and pushes towards the right direction, he might have never accepted what he thought of Medaka and won a dry victory in a one-on-one battle. That is to say, simply using Devil Style (or some other skill) wasn't enough for other possible routes of victory. In the end, he had to have learn knew things besides what he already knew.

After Zenkichi used his version of Altered God Mode, he didn't become an invincible shounen protagonist, and in fact, he was pretty much losing throughout the fight. His ability wasn't necessarily awesome nor was his endeavor epic.

Also, he didn't come out and say I have this awesome ability that'll make me the strongest or "didn't you know I had this ability all along" or "I have this innate talent for doing inexplicable hogwash." He said he acquired this ability during training with help from Anshin'in-san and Shiranui.

If this is an asspull, I'm worried about what you might consider skills to be and how you aren't denouncing the god, that is, Anshin'in-san. (To clarify, I myself don't think even Anshin'in's abilities are asspull. She was omnipotent from the very beginning and in fact, her inability to do something without any whimsical reasons would be more of an asspull.) As long as it's shown that the character did train, I don't see reason to list every single thing said character learned during that training.
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:05   Link #9259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You'd think that something like his sudden ability to use Mars Mode wouldn't be allowed under Devil Style, as it was ABSOLUTELY an asspull, as was Nienami's oh by the way I was actually the weakest.
It absolutely wasn't. He had that before the election even began when he was training. Worked his ass off.

Oh, and another thing. Ususally a main character's power-up is supposed to have them instantly win the fight and be superior to their opponent. If it was an ass-pull, it was a meaningless ass-pull that only served for Zenkichi not to get instantly killed by the massively stronger opponent.

Zenkichi's Mars Mode was still inferior overall to Nienami. Another convention NOT being followed, I see.

It was obvious Nishio prepared that ability far before-hand, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, I find that Zenkichi is the "weakest" of the Student Council in the same way that Kumagawa is the "weakest"; that is to say, he isn't at all.
Given that the weakest suitor beat the hell out of him, and he stated Torai was the strongest(another convention not followed) i'm inclined to believe him. Zenkichi, unlike Kumagawa, has no deeper reason to state that other than it being fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That said, I should say though that I find Devil Style uninteresting. A very strict reading of how Ajimu described it would imply that nothing of note would happen to Zenkichi, ever.
That's unfortunate in my opinion. Only if you're reasing that one panel extremely literally you'd get that.

The skill technically only stops fate's whims on events, not completely 'impossibilitates' them. An equal playing field, now that is awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
lol. Emukae x Zenkichi end incoming? Seriously, Emukae's love been receiving way too much focus recently to not be setting up something.
Stop putting my hopes up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
but I also disagree that it has any extended effect on characters not directly involved with Zenkichi. Saying that Medaka can "lose" now against any random smuck or be turned into a "damsel in distress" sort of thing is dumb, the only opponent who can cancel out Medaka's MC/Abnormal aura for the moment is Ajimu/Zenkichi. Outside of occasional interactions with Zenkichi, all of the other Medaka Box character's universal auras should still be operating just as they always have.
I specifically said in my post it depended on the range of Devil Style. So I never said what's mentioned here. >:I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
Anyway, I'm gonna look forward to seeing Emukae somehow beating the supposedly strongest Suitor, lol . Maybe this will be a good point to step away from the conventional "shounen battle" arc structure; same way that the Flask Plan mixed things up once it reached the Akune vs. Koga and Naze fight.
Performance boost from Hitoyoshi love. I'm calling it right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
The point about Devil Style/Zenkichi's "Zero" status in the first place is his rejection of the conventional advantages of a Main Character. This includes the escapist function of most shallow entertainment/junk fiction in general, where you basically have a generic/archetypal self-insert MC for the audience and he gets awesome abilities and goes on epic adventures so the audiences can pretend that they themselves are that awesome personally. After Nishio exaggerated the ridiculousness of the narrative conveniences this creates via Medaka to its logical conclusion, he's now developed Zenkichi as a character who stands in opposition to that. In essence, via Devil Style, Zenkichi has/will now become the antithesis to the self-satisfying self-insert Main Character. To the extent that this manga continues to actually follow Zenkichi, he will be exactly as Ajimu said, a "New World MC" who does not offer any of the conventional escapist satisfaction of standard shounen main characters.
Are you reading my mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagi
As some others pointed out, I doubt Devil Style would effect Medaka now. Besides that, my point isn't whether Medaka can lose now or not or whether she, in any way at all, won in the election, it is that Nisio can still write compelling stories even if he is using invincible, rule-breaking gods. If he can write a magical girl capable of doing pretty much anything to a corner and if he can make someone as awesomely broken as Jun seem normal, he can also use Ajimu's brokenness to its full potential without having to write her out of the story.
It will, depending on the range of the ability.

And as for your second point, I wasn't replying to it, but it's obvious he can still write his story with those characters, given that there's good enough writing in the situations he conjures.
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:50   Link #9260
summers
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter was Kinda boring, maybe other can point out something interesting that I missed. I dont consider her a minus anymore, her personality changed thanks to zen, and her ability is controllable thanks to Kumugawa. If she is still classified as a minus then she will lose this fight.
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