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Old 2012-06-08, 16:27   Link #9261
Tempest35
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We can probably call Emukae a reformed Minus. While she still leans towards negative thinking, she's actively trying to change that side of herself. Other Minuses don't care enough to change their personality like Emukae is.
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Old 2012-06-08, 17:08   Link #9262
Randrak42
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I'm a bit sad that the early spoilers were wrong when they said that Emukae was only helping Zenkichi so she could beat Medaka and take him for her own. I miss her yandereness!
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Old 2012-06-08, 17:22   Link #9263
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I'm a bit sad that the early spoilers were wrong when they said that Emukae was only helping Zenkichi so she could beat Medaka and take him for her own. I miss her yandereness!
Last page, bottom right panel.
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Old 2012-06-08, 17:26   Link #9264
Randrak42
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Last page, bottom right panel.
It's just not the same without the giant wall of text on how her life will be with Zenkichi as her lover.
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Old 2012-06-08, 21:09   Link #9265
Kaisos Erranon
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A bit late, but:

I consider an asspull any story element introduced with no prior foreshadowing or setup... Zenkichi just went "oh by the way I can do this now because of training and Real Eater", even though this had never been mentioned before.

Moreover, the real reason I think Devil Style is gone is because prior to this current arc, it was of enormous importance... but it hasn't been brought up once since. It's both odd and suspicious.

Furthermore, Zenkichi looking at the puzzle this chapter for less than a minute and solving it instantly... the story has already established that he's the sort of person that can't do something like that, you know? Hence Shori's reaction.
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Old 2012-06-08, 22:07   Link #9266
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Moreover, the real reason I think Devil Style is gone is because prior to this current arc, it was of enormous importance... but it hasn't been brought up once since. It's both odd and suspicious.
There's no reason for it to even be brought up though. On every conversation until now, why would people even mention his Devil Style?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Furthermore, Zenkichi looking at the puzzle this chapter for less than a minute and solving it instantly... the story has already established that he's the sort of person that can't do something like that, you know? Hence Shori's reaction.
Emukae specifically said him able to solve that was not only because Medaka was in danger, but because of the sheer effort he put into himself so he was never as servil to Medaka and useless to others as he was before, an effect of Anshin' san's training.

I mean, seriously. Zenkichi made Devil Style because he wanted a reality where he wouldn't be helped, where he would win without luck or some miracle. He wanted the feeling of his doings to be real. That's what's appealing to him about Devil Style to begin with. That's his reason for making the skill. Are people going to tell me his character suddenly changed?

That was his doing, through his effort. He gets the credit for working his ass off to build himself from scratch.

Plus, with all the narrative conventions not being followed, Devil Style no longer existing is a nigh-impossibility, IMO.
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Old 2012-06-08, 22:52   Link #9267
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
On every conversation until now, why would people even mention his Devil Style?
I'd just like some acknowledgement of it. Like Naze going "oh, this didn't happen because of Devil Style" or something of that nature. It would be comforting, but they're not discussing it at all.

Really, this whole arc is strange that way. We're getting information about the time in between 140 and 141 in little bits, rather than actually showing us what happened directly. Emukae's fight next week will probably have a flashback to Zenkichi recruiting her, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
an effect of Anshin' san's training.
Training that, I might note, we never really saw or were told exactly what it entailed, because said training is actually just an excuse to asspull new talents of Zenkichi's and I really don't like it.

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Are people going to tell me his character suddenly changed?
Actually, now that you bring it up, he does feel a bit different from the Zenkichi we've seen up until now, but I'd put that down as more of him starting to become comfortable in Medaka's role.

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Plus, with all the narrative conventions not being followed,
What isn't being followed? I'd expect something far greater than minor subversions, given what we've already seen Devil Style do.

For that matter, this arc is an exact repeat of the structure of the Minus and to a lesser extent the Flask Plan arc, just in a variety of exotic locales rather than Hakoniwa Academy, which is another thing that kind of bothers me.

NisiOisiN is going to spring some surprise on us because that is what he does. Given how I feel it's being intentionally avoided, I suspect it will have something to do with Devil Style. That was really my point to begin with.
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Old 2012-06-08, 23:13   Link #9268
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'd just like some acknowledgement of it. Like Naze going "oh, this didn't happen because of Devil Style" or something of that nature. It would be comforting, but they're not discussing it at all.

Really, this whole arc is strange that way. We're getting information about the time in between 140 and 141 in little bits, rather than actually showing us what happened directly. Emukae's fight next week will probably have a flashback to Zenkichi recruiting her, for instance.
Just, realize that the abscence of mention of the technique in no way implies it's gone. However, I don't see your issue with this at all. Every arc had a different narrative format.

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Training that, I might note, we never really saw or were told exactly what it entailed, because said training is actually just an excuse to asspull new talents of Zenkichi's and I really don't like it.
...What?


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, now that you bring it up, he does feel a bit different from the Zenkichi we've seen up until now, but I'd put that down as more of him starting to become comfortable in Medaka's role.
Incredibly different from the Zenkichi before the Flask Plan.

The Zenkichi during and after the Flask Plan, though. Exudes this aura of confidence in himself. This character of knowing, and sheer bossness. Someone with his resolves settled.

Probably due to this page:

Spoiler:


He knows what he wants, and acknowledges himself, what he can and can't do. Due to his sequence with Anshin' San and Emukae, his personality was, indeed, reformed.


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What isn't being followed? I'd expect something far greater than minor subversions, given what we've already seen Devil Style do.
Disposing with the principles of Shounen Manga that Medaka Box dutily followed is not enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
For that matter, this arc is an exact repeat of the structure of the Minus and to a lesser extent the Flask Plan arc, just in a variety of exotic locales rather than Hakoniwa Academy, which is another thing that kind of bothers me.
The format isn't essentially the same, as you yourelf acknowledged in my first point, he is mixing it up.

Either way though, your problem with Nisio repeating a successfull narrative format is...?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
NisiOisiN is going to spring some surprise on us because that is what he does. Given how I feel it's being intentionally avoided, I suspect it will have something to do with Devil Style. That was really my point to begin with.
So even though it would completely trample upon everything the last arc represented for Zenkichi's character, and the fact Devil Style's effects are measurable in this new world, you're just assuming that it's gone because noone's mentioned it since? What?

Forget Zenkichi's character, you'r implying Nisio undermined the entire importance of Medaka Box. Realize that EVERY god-like thing Nisio did and exagerated about Medaka he did it to invalidate it in the future with Zenkichi.

Really, like that nice Sol person said:

Quote:
The point about Devil Style/Zenkichi's "Zero" status in the first place is his rejection of the conventional advantages of a Main Character. This includes the escapist function of most shallow entertainment/junk fiction in general, where you basically have a generic/archetypal self-insert MC for the audience and he gets awesome abilities and goes on epic adventures so the audiences can pretend that they themselves are that awesome personally. After Nishio exaggerated the ridiculousness of the narrative conveniences this creates via Medaka to its logical conclusion, he's now developed Zenkichi as a character who stands in opposition to that. In essence, via Devil Style, Zenkichi has/will now become the antithesis to the self-satisfying self-insert Main Character. To the extent that this manga continues to actually follow Zenkichi, he will be exactly as Ajimu said, a "New World MC" who does not offer any of the conventional escapist satisfaction of standard shounen main characters.
And you're telling me Nisio is not only undermining Zen's development, he's undermining the key point of building all of Medaka's god-likeness and then shattering it, by making Zenkichi become the very thing he destroyed?

Nisio isn't that bad a writer. I call bullshit.
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Old 2012-06-08, 23:30   Link #9269
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
...What?
"I can do this now, because of unspecified training".

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Disposing with the principles of Shounen Manga that Medaka Box dutily followed is not enough for you?
I don't understand what principles you are referring to. It's still essentially following a shounen manga structure.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Either way though, your problem with Nisio repeating a successfull narrative format is...?
It's lazy? This is why I liked the Not Equal arc, although only prior to Zenkichi getting Devil Style. I felt it kind of fell apart after that, at least until 140, which is probably one of my favorite chapters so far.

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Realize that EVERY god-like thing Nisio did and exagerated about Medaka he did it to invalidate it in the future with Zenkichi.

Really, like that nice Sol person said: To the extent that this manga continues to actually follow Zenkichi, he will be exactly as Ajimu said, a "New World MC" who does not offer any of the conventional escapist satisfaction of standard shounen main characters.
Again, I'm simply not seeing this. Although not blessed with the inherent ability to roll sixes, he is still quite powerful on his own, and I, for one, feel like giving him Mars Mode was a greater insult to what I liked so much about his character than some sort of narrative game surrounding the continued existence of Devil Style would be.

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And you're telling me Nisio is not only undermining Zen's development, he's undermining the key point of building all of Medaka's god-likeness and then shattering it, by making Zenkichi become the very thing he destroyed?

Nisio isn't that bad a writer. I call bullshit.
Medaka's godliness was never shattered, something that rather upset me. Her worldview was affirmed by the entire cast as being 100% correct (which it isn't, in my opinion) but something that would ultimately destroy her as a human being, hence her defeat (and I use that term loosely, BECAUSE of the affirmation of her worldview) in the election.

Furthermore, many people would call NisiOisiN a bad writer and are often given reason to, even though I know from his other works that he's better than this, which is why I want this arc (which, after Ajimu's skillspam, has turned extremely predictable) to take a sharp turn in the first place.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:12   Link #9270
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
"I can do this now, because of unspecified training".
So you'd consider anything he could do because of his training an 'asspull', simply because we did not see the training?

Well, it is your opinion.

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I don't understand what principles you are referring to. It's still essentially following a shounen manga structure.
Shounen Principle #1: The main character is the strongest in the team.

Devil Style Medaka Box: Zenkichi is the weakest of his team.

Shounen Principle #2: You'll fight from the strongest to weakest in a tournament.

Devil Style Medaka Box: They are fightning the strongest suitor right now, with two left to go.

Shounen Principle #3: A power-up will elevate the main character above the level of his current enemy(Natsu, Ichigo, you know the drill) .

Devil Style Medaka Box: Zenkichi was absolutely destroyed by Nienami and won through a slim chance by abusing her weakness.

Shounen Principle #4: The main character is irrevocable and will never be defeated.

Devil Style Medaka Box: Does Zenkichi look like the undefeatable beast that Pre-Devil Style Medaka was? No? That's all due to his personal skill: Devil Style.

Looks pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's lazy? This is why I liked the Not Equal arc, although only prior to Zenkichi getting Devil Style. I felt it kind of fell apart after that, at least until 140, which is probably one of my favorite chapters so far.
If it works, I don't see why not use it. He needed a familiar ground to establish the new interactions between the Student Council. Next arc will not be the same, and will probably follow another past format.


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Again, I'm simply not seeing this. Although not blessed with the inherent ability to roll sixes, he is still quite powerful on his own, and I, for one, feel like giving him Mars Mode was a greater insult to what I liked so much about his character than some sort of narrative game surrounding the continued existence of Devil Style would be.
The hell?

Zenkichi needed Mars Mode to even begin to be considered a 'third-rate'. In Medaka Box, there'd be a universe separating him and the word 'powerful'. Mars Mode was a boost given to him to attempt to show the initial efforts the flask plan had, trying to maximize the abilities that a normal like Zenkichi had.

Obviously to no avail. It couldn't beat Nienami, it wouldn't last a second against Medaka. I don't see how you can even reach the conclusion that it's an insult to his character him working hard to try and attain his full potential. Mars Mode isn't a skill. It's him operating at maximum potential.

Regardless, that's a pretty twisted view of the manga in my opinion. That's not what Nishio meant to write at all. What he did was create a character to invalidate the Shounen protag that was the past Medaka. Which he did to a tee. And manages to keep himself pretty consistant.

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Medaka's godliness was never shattered, something that rather upset me. Her worldview was affirmed by the entire cast as being 100% correct (which it isn't, in my opinion)
...

I'm now convinced we are not reading the same manga anymore.

You're Wrong! For us humans to constantly succeed is just wrong!
Spoiler:


Spoiler:

I was wrong...
Spoiler:

It is my loss...
Spoiler:


The invalidation of her being of 'constantly suceeding' was specifically named as one of the things Zenkichi wanted her to admit she was wrong about. And that's exactly what he did in the election.

I'm sorry, we can stop the debate right here. The Manga completely invalidates your hypothesis.

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Her worldview was affirmed by the entire cast as being 100% correct (which it isn't, in my opinion) but something that would ultimately destroy her as a human being, hence her defeat (and I use that term loosely, BECAUSE of the affirmation of her worldview) in the election.
Hahahaha?

The manga disagrees.

Hell.

Medaka disagrees. She admitted her view was wrong. You can't possibly be implying you think Nisio is this bad a writer, that he fucked-up the entire arc.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:34   Link #9271
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Medaka disagrees. She admitted her view was wrong. You can't possibly be implying you think Nisio is this bad a writer, that he fucked-up the entire arc.
This page:
Spoiler:


Medaka's loss was her moral victory. I wasn't the only person to have this opinion, nor was I the only person to be rather upset by it.

If NisiOisiN wanted to us to believe that her ideals and moral position had been "shattered", he failed utterly at doing so, in my mind. She's right, no matter how much she is wrong. That hasn't changed.

In regards to your "shounen principles"... well, yes, but in that case Devil Style didn't really do anything at all, did it? Zenkichi has always been the true main character of the series, just not in Medaka Box's weird metafictional sense of the term. All Devil Style did, in this case, was prevent Zenkichi from acquiring the same kind of protagonist immunities that Medaka has (which may, in fact, be specific to her rather than just the nominal position of "main character", a concept that might not even actually exist.).

This is interesting, you've given me a new idea to think about. Thank you.

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So you'd consider anything he could do because of his training an 'asspull', simply because we did not see the training?
Yes, actually. He's pulling new abilities and talents out of nowhere with a flimsy justification. I don't like it at all, but mileage varies, I guess.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:49   Link #9272
Naginoura
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Even the most seemingly useless arcs--as far back as the first chapter--had some purpose to it so far. Hell, even how the manga would go after Unzen was foreshadowed to an extent.

Until the not-equal arc, most of the characters Nisio used were Nisio's take on most of the stock shounen characters besides some of the too nisio-esque characters. The moment I saw Kairai, it was obvious that Nisio began finally writing Medaka Box the way he writes his novels. There is a reason a lot of people are reminded of the Zaregoto series. Even I couldn't help but see the quirky, eccentric side-families from the Zaregoto series when I saw the initial suitors. And it's not just their personality or character that's similar to Zaregoto's seinen air, it's the story as well.

How these changes are due to Devil Style; Wolfenstein explained, so I won't bother. (By these changes, I mean the shonen conventions changing. The shift from Nisio's regular writing and post not-equal/jet-black bride writing is already apparent.)

Nisio does have flaws, but I haven't read anything pages long detailing how much of a bad writer he is. Sure, even his hardcore fans criticize some of his books, but only because he never shows what they expect.

By the way, Zenkichi's training was mentioned in the manga --did they have to say "We are gonna teach you the ultimate taiga akushou!!" for it to be pleasing. Admitting something exists just for the sake of admitting it... I doubt Nisio even saw it as necessary to voice it when its effects are seen clearly in the manga itself. And if that's not enough, his training is mentioned again in an insert from the first novel. That sketch of him running really was from the time he was training. Unlike some mangas where we are shown unnecessarily long, flashy training arcs, Nisio isn't someone to waste time on that. Just because he doesn't limit himself doesn't mean anything and everything he doesn't show is asspull. Otherwise "Naze Youka's training from hell" and Maguro's "A Course" alone would have taken around 10 chapters...
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:58   Link #9273
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Naginoura View Post
By these changes, I mean the shonen conventions changing. The shift from Nisio's regular writing and post not-equal/jet-black bride writing is already apparent.
Now it's my turn to ask if we're reading the same manga. I haven't read anything from Zaregoto that's not yet in English, but... this is still very much the Medaka Box it's always been, except without any character interaction between characters that would be incredibly entertaining to see interact (Tsurubami and Shiranui, for example) and slightly more aggravating to me because of how much I feel they're ignoring, particularly that kiss scene but it seems that no one cares about that anymore.

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Originally Posted by Naginoura View Post
Unlike some mangas where we are shown unnecessarily long, flashy training arcs, Nisio isn't someone to waste time on that. Just because he doesn't limit himself doesn't mean anything and everything he doesn't show is asspull. Otherwise "Naze Youka's training from hell" and Maguro's "A Course" alone would have taken around 10 chapters...
And I appreciate him a lot for doing this, but what I don't appreciate is when a character without any supernatural abilities of his own gets a decidedly supernatural powerup because "he trained". (Before you mention Real Eater, the fact that Shiranui helped with his training should have been mentioned as if it was I probably wouldn't be complaining, and for that matter we still don't know what Real Eater does and I'm starting to doubt that NisiOisiN does either.)
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Old 2012-06-09, 01:04   Link #9274
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Medaka's loss was her moral victory.
Her 'victory' lied in the fact that her logic was invalidated, which is what you are arguing was NOT invalidated to begin with. That was always Zenkichi's plan from the start.

Releasing her, by defeating her. By invalidating her past existance. And then 'confessing'. Though he later switched to giving her free-will.

She realized people cared enough for her to try and stop her when she was wrong, that in no way, consitutes to her 'standing above others as a God-like being' not being invalidated. It has absolutely ZERO realtionship to that actually, given the fact she was invalidated is what brought about her moral change to begin with, and made her realize people cared for her.

So no. I won't have people saying an entire arc was fucked-up completely because they mis-interpreted it.

I am deeply sorry, but that just irks the hella out of me.

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I wasn't the only person to have this opinion, nor was I the only person to be rather upset by it.
I'd like to meet these other people so I can promptly and flamboyantly show it to their faces how wrong they're reading the manga.

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If NisiOisiN wanted to us to believe that her ideals and moral position had been "shattered", he failed utterly at doing so, in my mind. She's right, no matter how much she is wrong. That hasn't changed.
How the can you even begin to say this? We must definitely not be reading the same manga. She had a mental breadown when her values were invalidated, so much that she asked for a reason to live.

Then Zenkichi promptly told her how everyone cared for her. And how it was wrong to be always right, something she acknowledged as correct.

I mean, am I missing something here. Anyone?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In regards to your "shounen principles"... well, yes, but in that case Devil Style didn't really do anything at all, did it? Zenkichi has always been the true main character of the series, just not in Medaka Box's weird metafictional sense of the term. All Devil Style did, in this case, was prevent Zenkichi from acquiring the same kind of protagonist immunities that Medaka has (which may, in fact, be specific to her rather than just the nominal position of "main character", a concept that might not even actually exist.).
Erm, what are you talking about? Devil Style was basically the entire emancipation of the very thing you're talking about. That is an absolutely huge deal, since without it, the story would've remained as we know it.

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This is interesting, you've given me a new idea to think about. Thank you.
Well, you're welcome. And again, sorry for being so blunt, but this is an issue i'm very passionate about.
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Old 2012-06-09, 01:27   Link #9275
Kaisos Erranon
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I'd like to meet these other people so I can promptly and flamboyantly show it to their faces how wrong they're reading the manga.
I don't think it's "reading it wrong" as it is absolutely hating Medaka.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
She had a mental breadown when her values were invalidated, so much that she asked for a reason to live.
And I was greatly amused and cheered, but was disappointed when her loss to Zenkichi turned out to ultimately be a very positive thing for her. That whole chapter left me with a feeling of "nothing has really changed, except for their respective positions". That said, 140 redeemed the whole arc for me, and, like I said, is one of my favorite chapters.

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Erm, what are you talking about? Devil Style was basically the entire emancipation of the very thing you're talking about. That is an absolutely huge deal, since without it, the story would've remained as we know it.
My idea is, and what I'm changing my position to, is that Devil Style never actually existed in the first place. (Think about that for a minute.) I remember it being pointed out on another forum, back when 138 came out, that all it really did was give Zenkichi what he always had to begin with.

Also, I don't see how the story is that much different at all. The only difference is that the focus has shifted to Zenkichi (as it has done before), and that the setting has expanded outside of the Academy.
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Old 2012-06-09, 01:48   Link #9276
Wolfenstein
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I don't think it's "reading it wrong" as it is absolutely hating Medaka.
Maybe, but I hate Medaka as well(you can tell by me absolutely dreading how Zenkichi ignores is other potential lovers) and feel differently.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I was greatly amused and cheered, but was disappointed when her loss to Zenkichi turned out to ultimately be a very positive thing for her.
Why? That's what Zenkichi intended to do in the first place. Make her acknowledge she was wrong and move on(perferably into loving him).

This is all portrayed accurately when Zenkichi goes through his character metamorphosis and later when Medaka is defeated.


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That whole chapter left me with a feeling of "nothing has really changed, except for their respective positions".
But everything has changed. The God-like protagonist of previous manga? Gone. The world ruled by fate? Gone.

What Zenkichi did was so much more than simply save Medaka from her erroneous ideology, something he wanted to do. He created a new world, a new manga, with his skill and ideology.

And that is exactly what Ajimu Najimi wanted to pass to us with her line:

'My new worlds's main character.'

And exactly what I took out of it. And that's exactly what we are seeing happen right now.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
My idea is, and what I'm changing my position to, is that Devil Style never actually existed in the first place. (Think about that for a minute.) I remember it being pointed out on another forum, back when 138 came out, that all it really did was give Zenkichi what he always had to begin with
...

I really don't know what to say to this. Sorry.


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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, I don't see how the story is that much different at all. The only difference is that the focus has shifted to Zenkichi (as it has done before), and that the setting has expanded outside of the Academy.
Those alone are differences, to begin with. However, we have also seen the diversion from the conventional main character and other conventions. Something I'd rather enjoyed since now we get focus on the side-characters like Emukae, Wazinuka, etc...

Nisio is still writting this 'new world'. He needs some time to get to the climax.
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Old 2012-06-09, 01:59   Link #9277
Kaisos Erranon
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Why? That's what Zenkichi intended to do in the first place. Make her acknowledge she was wrong and move on(perferably into loving him).
Yes, and while he accomplished this, I feel as though the theme is somewhat broken. That's my opinion, though.

What I really don't like is how nothing has been made of the kiss scene since. It really tramples on his victory, I feel.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
But everything has changed. The God-like protagonist of previous manga? Gone. The world ruled by fate? Gone.
But these things were the delusions of Najimi Ajimu, a quasi-deity older than the universe who became so convinced of the unreality of said universe due to her boredom with it. I would not take anything she has said seriously, not after 140, and neither should anyone.

Whether or not this serves to illustrate the manga's themes is irrelevant; the world of Medaka Box, in the world of Medaka Box, is (probably) not a manga.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I really don't know what to say to this. Sorry.
You could actually give it some thought. Did ANYONE ever bring up the skill other than Ajimu? It works more on Medaka Box's metafictional themes than any other skill in the manga; such a skill shouldn't exist in-universe.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Those alone are differences, to begin with. However, we have also seen the diversion from the conventional main character and other conventions. Something I'd rather enjoyed since now we get focus on the side-characters like Emukae, Wazinuka, etc...
Parts of other arcs have done this; for that matter, a lot of the time Medaka isn't even the focus. This isn't new.
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Old 2012-06-09, 02:22   Link #9278
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yes, and while he accomplished this, I feel as though the theme is somewhat broken. That's my opinion, though.
Well, I don't. Because I knew that was the established theme from the beguinning. Zenkichi always had the intention of saving Medaka from her wrong ideology(which he felt guilty for), besides moving on with his own life, which was his other main goal. Those aren't supposed to be dichotomies at all. He did both at once. That was always the theme.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But these things were the delusions of Najimi Ajimu, a quasi-deity older than the universe who became so convinced of the unreality of said universe due to her boredom with it. I would not take anything she has said seriously, not after 140, and neither should anyone. Whether or not this serves to illustrate the manga's themes is irrelevant; the world of Medaka Box, in the world of Medaka Box, is (probably) not a manga.
What? Obviously they aren't, that's a measurable effect. Do you forget how fate smiles upon abnormals and does the contrary for Minuses, especially Kumagawa? That's exactly what Ajimu was talking about when she was describing Devil Style. And exactly what Zenkichi wanted to invalidate since Medaka, being the protag, was by virtue of fate 'always right' and would 'always win when it mattered'. A manga protagonist convention.

That's how, finally, she was able to lose when it actually mattered.

Even the narrator tells us this:

Spoiler:


It's not a delusion at all. Fate exists in Medaka Box, without a doubt. Or, well at least existed. With Devil Style around, It might as well not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You could actually give it some thought. Did ANYONE ever bring up the skill other than Ajimu? It works more on Medaka Box's metafictional themes than any other skill in the manga; such a skill shouldn't exist in-universe.
Yes it exists. Fate has always had a measurable effect on Medaka Box. Ajimu isn't making anything up. That skill alone is what allowed Medaka to be brought down, when she could never lose in a conflict before, even when weaker than her opponent(Forbidden God Mode vs Zenkichi).

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Parts of other arcs have done this; for that matter, a lot of the time Medaka isn't even the focus. This isn't new.
I was talking about the diversions in the main character and the manga conventions. That's the only thing Devil Style changes.

Which it has. Zenkichi is now the main character, but without all the benefits since he disposed of them, and manga conventions are all but non-existant.
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Old 2012-06-09, 02:25   Link #9279
Sol Falling
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Guys, the reason Zenkichi's Altered God Mode isn't an asspull is because it doesn't make him overpowered, not that it was justified (which I would actually give to Kaisos that it was not as clearly telegraphed as most other things within the story). It is not even a supernatural power aside from the concept that Zenkichi can use the full-potential of his body/abilities. The most important aspect of an "asspull" is the degree to which it enables convenient/unbelievable events in the story; which Zenkichi having Altered God Mode didn't remotely do for his victory.

About whether or not Medaka lost in the elections. She did explicitly in the fact that she got 2% of the vote from the academy, and Zenkichi got 62%. This was a rejection of Medaka's mission as Student Council President, "To be of service to strangers", which to that point had been Medaka's entire life.

There were two ways in which Medaka's attitude was presented as being wrong. First: it was suggested that people should solve their own problems, rather than relying on Medaka. The situation that Medaka's kindness/leniency allowed people to receive things they didn't deserve/earn was presented as being wrong. Personally, I disagree with this because Medaka herself has always been presented as wanting people to be independent/grow stronger, and fight for their own happiness.

Second: Medaka's selfless/giving attitude was rebuked for treating all other people as equal "strangers". One aspect of this was the development of her treatment of Zenkichi, whereby the special relationship of "childhood friends" between them was abandoned because it got in the way of Medaka's ability to help other people. The second aspect of this was in how Medaka's attitude inherently implied that the people she helped were "strangers"--people who received and gained from Medaka's kindness, but never gave anything back. In essence, it implied an inequal relationship: Medaka's attitude of placing herself completely below other humans, as someone in service to others, meant that anybody who accepted that and unobjectionably received help from her would be treating her as less than human.

What was not disputed/criticized: nowhere did the manga imply/acknowledge that Medaka's actions were anything except her whole-hearted attempt at being of service to others. In essence, as a matter of characterization: the manga maintained that Medaka is (as always) a sympathetic person who was always selflessly thinking of others. Furthermore, no commentary/development was made in regards to the fact that Medaka is still (practically) the de facto strongest/most powerful individual in her universe, with abilities far beyond normal such that they are still pretty much untouchable compared to the efforts of normal humans. However, the continuation/legitimization of Ajimu's Flask Plan, which has already produced its first generation of subjects including Torai, the new SC member, looks to perhaps have begun changing this.

Also, for the record I want to clarify that I disagree that the sole point of Medaka's character was to represent the conveniences of shounen main characters (that would describe only, to be specific, Medaka's Abnormality--NOT her personality or characterization as a human individual) and that I still believe she has a very significant role to play as, in her own regard, one of Medaka Box's actual Main Characters.

Also that I am shipping Kumagawa x Medaka and Emukae x Zenkichi for real, as this manga's endgame pairings.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-06-09 at 02:54.
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Old 2012-06-09, 02:28   Link #9280
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
and Emukae x Zenkichi for real, as this manga's endgame pairings.
Will you please stop giving me hope? I don't want them to be crushed in the end.
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