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Old 2012-07-07, 23:31   Link #9941
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
There's a lot more that's wrong with the story than just the romance -_- And yet people seem to harp on it the most
That's the central focus of the recent chapters. Obviously people are going to be discussing that currently, nothing more logical than that.
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Old 2012-07-08, 01:07   Link #9942
DawnEmperor
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For me at least, the romance bothers me a bit because it feels like there was something else to Zenkichi before Medaka. We see that Medaka was lonely before she met Zenkichi...and Zenkichi's character has largely been his love for Medaka. Why is it that Zenkichi becomes this satellite to Medaka? We could say it's because he's a normal guy, and he just developed into that character(the whole purpose he gave to Medaka could partly be chalked up to two year old foolishness).

Honestly, I never felt like Zenkichi was "guiding" Medaka. Whatever her flaws, she's clearly her own character.

Well...I'll see
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Old 2012-07-08, 07:16   Link #9943
ccie20012
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@Kaisos Erranon

Agree.
It is predicted, natural and favorite pair of readers (hmm ... IMHO).
http://www.emptyblue.it/data/wallpap...a_box_0043.jpg

We waited ~150 chapters, to get pleasure from the recognition scene between Zen and Medaka.
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Old 2012-07-08, 08:36   Link #9944
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
That's the central focus of the recent chapters. Obviously people are going to be discussing that currently, nothing more logical than that.
To be fair, the plot of Medaka box doesn't make sense, their powers don't make sense, Medaka herself doesn't make sense but all this is handwaved aside because 'hey, it's a shounen series'. However, the romance? That deserves several pages of discussion followed by scientific principles and examples. Wut??
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Old 2012-07-08, 10:10   Link #9945
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
To be fair, the plot of Medaka box doesn't make sense, their powers don't make sense, Medaka herself doesn't make sense but all this is handwaved aside because 'hey, it's a shounen series'. However, the romance? That deserves several pages of discussion followed by scientific principles and examples. Wut??
Care to present any actual examples? Medaka Box's construction/progression as a story precisely has been that things which don't make sense in the past, receive development and explanation in the future. Nothing is handwaved because the parts of Medaka Box which don't make sense are precisely the point of the story, the early signs and foreshadowing for the questions the story will hinge on in the future.

Examples of this:
Medaka's outrageous Mary Sue-ness: addressed with the existence of Abnormals. Developed and explained even further via the "Main Character" concept during the Not Equals arc. Dismantled through the actions and very existence of Ajimu, and the re-establishment of the Flask PLan.

Medaka's delusional "Saint" persona ("humans are fundamentally good"): explained and partially dismantled through the conflict with Unzen (developed with the help of Nabeshima in the fight against Unzen's sister). Developed even further in the Flask Plan arc through her conflict with Naze. Challenged via the conflict with Kumagawa in the Minus arc. Completely dismantled by the current stage of the Black Wedding arc.

Medaka's impossible/ridiculously altruistic dream of "helping everybody": explained via Zenkichi flashback during the Flask Plan arc. Challenged by the Minuses during the Minus Arc. Challenged by Zenkichi, and subsequently completely dismantled by the end of the Not Equals arc.

Zenkichi's absolute devotion to Medaka is practically the last thing standing which has been left over from the original premise. All other aspects, including Medaka's very position in the Student Council and the Suggestion Box itself, have been explored, developed, and irrevocably changed by now. Most importantly, like all the aspects I highlighted above, it has also been highlighted in the series as being completely nonsensical. It might not be happening next chapter, but given all the focus it has been receiving lately, I think this aspect of Zen's relationship with Medaka is clearly next up on the chopping block.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-08 at 10:24.
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Old 2012-07-08, 10:19   Link #9946
evil|plushie
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Which is exactly what I mean. The things that don't make sense make sense because this is a shonen manga and works within the established universe of Medaka Box because 'author says so' and people are fine with that. However, when romance comes into play, suddenly people like to use science to discuss things. It's like watching a building get bombed and then going 'hmm, I think today's special is pizza'.

Seriously, just look at Kumagawa's power and tell me then HTF science even plays any part in Medaka Box's universe.
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Old 2012-07-08, 10:38   Link #9947
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Which is exactly what I mean. The things that don't make sense make sense because this is a shonen manga and works within the established universe of Medaka Box because 'author says so' and people are fine with that. However, when romance comes into play, suddenly people like to use science to discuss things. It's like watching a building get bombed and then going 'hmm, I think today's special is pizza'.

Seriously, just look at Kumagawa's power and tell me then HTF science even plays any part in Medaka Box's universe.
No, the point is that there is no "author says so" yet regarding why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka. Seriously, look through the manga: you can find explanations of why Medaka was in love with Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Emukae loves Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Kumagawa loves or loved Medaka; etc. etc. But no explanation has been given yet for why Zenkichi loves Medaka, despite being such a huge underlying part of the series. This means it is obviously a setup. Most of the obvious things Nishio has left unexplained in the story have had some kind of twist/unexpected development associated with them.

Science was not brought up in any discussion regarding it playing a specific part in Medaka Box's universe. It was brought up in terms of the idea of whether love, or art/the (scientific) universe in general, can be understood rationally (i.e. in terms of logic).
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-07-08, 11:04   Link #9948
summers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I wonder what would happen if Nisio ever learnt of this bizzare conversation, and somehow saw all it's details.

One might think that he may start teasing quantum physics next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
WTF is going on in this thread? Is this a Hamlet lesson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I know right my reaction to this topic. WTF is this shit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And now people are using abstract physics to try and justify a Zenkichi and Emukae pairing. Will wonders never cease?
Its a Trademark of this thread now. Mega posts and Quantum mechanics. It makes me LOL I love it. Though at times it makes me feel weird when right after someone brings up Occam's razor, I'm like...So...Kumagawa rocks.

Maybe I should ask some of these guys to tutor me.
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Old 2012-07-08, 11:41   Link #9949
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, the point is that there is no "author says so" yet regarding why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka. Seriously, look through the manga: you can find explanations of why Medaka was in love with Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Emukae loves Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Kumagawa loves or loved Medaka; etc. etc. But no explanation has been given yet for why Zenkichi loves Medaka, despite being such a huge underlying part of the series. This means it is obviously a setup. Most of the obvious things Nishio has left unexplained in the story have had some kind of twist/unexpected development associated with them.

Science was not brought up in any discussion regarding it playing a specific part in Medaka Box's universe. It was brought up in terms of the idea of whether love, or art/the (scientific) universe in general, can be understood rationally (i.e. in terms of logic).
Pretty much this.

I mean, what gives it away is how Nishio expertly dodged the question when Zenkichi was developing his character in the New Flask Plan arc.

He simply denied any explanation and ultimately gave a declarative statement. There's definitely something to think about, given Nishio's story-telling is not sloppy to this degree.
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Old 2012-07-08, 12:16   Link #9950
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, the point is that there is no "author says so" yet regarding why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka. Seriously, look through the manga: you can find explanations of why Medaka was in love with Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Emukae loves Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Kumagawa loves or loved Medaka; etc. etc. But no explanation has been given yet for why Zenkichi loves Medaka, despite being such a huge underlying part of the series. This means it is obviously a setup. Most of the obvious things Nishio has left unexplained in the story have had some kind of twist/unexpected development associated with them.

Science was not brought up in any discussion regarding it playing a specific part in Medaka Box's universe. It was brought up in terms of the idea of whether love, or art/the (scientific) universe in general, can be understood rationally (i.e. in terms of logic).
TBF Kumagawa has has just about the same lack of reasoning as Zenkichi does. It's basically I met this girl in a clinic who i wanted to follow my idealogy, I failed, I love her now? No wait she almost killed, me I love her more? Thinking about it Kumagawa's love for Medaka is surprisingly sick, considering the whole middle school escapade. Actually I'm not too sure Nisio really thought that part through, seems a bit glaring.

I think all men in this manga haven't had their love, properly explained in regards to Medaka. Probably the reverse harem effect where men randomly fall in love with her. Aside from Kouki who wasn't really in love.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2012-07-08 at 12:31.
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Old 2012-07-08, 12:34   Link #9951
Kaisos Erranon
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Zenkichi loves Medaka because he's been 'by her side' since they were little kids and because he's attracted to her. It's that simple.
Kumagawa loves her because Kumagawa wants to break her and her ideals. Kumagawa's love is twisted, like everything else about him.

If Zenkichi doesn't end up with Medaka I guarantee you he won't end up with anyone. Shipping is bad and you should stop doing it.
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Old 2012-07-08, 12:40   Link #9952
Tenchi Hou Take
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I do lol at anyone who takes this shipping shit particularily seriously. The manga's not supposed to be taken seriously and not even Nisio takes it seriously. Trolling seems to be the word that sums up this manga and is largely the reason for most of these inconsistencies because Nisio didn't want to make the manga consistent. That's why there's a god like school girl on the good guys side in a this supposedly battle portion of the manga. And why there's no apparant plot.

Relax and be trolled, looking for anything deeper, will just end up trolling yourself. Doesn't mean you shouldn't ship just don't get too serious with it. Though there is some logical parts in this madness that makes upstuff as it goes along. Just don't assume everything is like that.
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Old 2012-07-08, 13:50   Link #9953
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF Kumagawa has has just about the same lack of reasoning as Zenkichi does. It's basically I met this girl in a clinic who i wanted to follow my idealogy, I failed, I love her now? No wait she almost killed, me I love her more? Thinking about it Kumagawa's love for Medaka is surprisingly sick, considering the whole middle school escapade.

I think all men in this manga haven't had their love, properly explained in regards to Medaka. Probably the reverse harem effect where men randomly fall in love with her. Aside from Kouki who wasn't really in love.
lol, if you really want an explanation for why Kumagawa loves Medaka I could go on a bit of a rant about it because I am a total Kumagawa x Medaka fanboy. Akune's love for Medaka, though, does lack somewhat of a direct explanation although it was associated with the moment Medaka converted him from his identity as "the Destroyer". In essence Akune's infatuation with Medaka was associated with his tendency to be influenced by any of the people he hangs around (this was explained during his vs. Wanizuka mini-arc): Akune's beliefs/behaviour kept changing drastically throughout the time he was under each of Kumagawa, Nabeshima, and Medaka. Particularly given that Akune's own nature is copying/modelling other people's abilities, he kept on searching for people/role-models to follow; and Medaka as the most absolute existence who stands above other people, made it natural for Akune who had that kind of tendency to want to follow her.

Anyway, Kumagawa's love for Medaka stems from ch. 90, page 7. I quote "Thoroughly strong, peerlessly amazing, soaringly high-spirited, and incredibly cool. An overwhelmingly absolute girl." Kumagawa's love basically stems from an admiration and fascination of the form of Medaka as an absolute winner, which is what Kumagawa wants to be. It easily makes sense why Kumagawa would be obsessed with Medaka, as someone who always loses.

The nuance, of course, is that Kumagawa's attitude towards the "winners" of life could never be called something as harmless as "admiration". I forget which chapter it is, but in one of the speeches Hitoyoshi-sensei (I think) gives about Kumagawa she talks about how Kumagawa falls in love with people easily (i.e. finds them cool, thinks they're admirable, etc.) but precisely because he's a loser who can never reach that level, the level to be together with them, he wants to pull them down and make them a miserable human. In essence, then, when he was in full Minus mode, Kumagawa's "love" was his desire to bind the "cool, smart, beautiful" people whom he admired to him by corrupting/breaking them to his own degenerative level.

Kumagawa didn't even realize that he was in love with Medaka until the start of their battle. He merely thought he hated her, because she stood for everything he could never acquire/accomplish. In the exact same way by representing those things, however, Medaka also stood for what Kumagawa most wanted. So that's why Kumagawa's monologue begins with "I really hated you, now and long ago; while I also loved you, now and long ago".

Of course, after the conclusion of Kumagawa and Medaka's battle, he became reformed and started to want to win, seriously. He began wanting to fight his fate, and understood that he was strong, personally. So in this respect, we can probably say that his hate for Medaka faded. Also, with the end of the Not Equals arc, Medaka lost the purpose of her life and in some senses became a little bit more human, so we may not have the scenario anymore where Medaka stands above Kumagawa. Medaka is no longer the "absolute" personality who stands for the very concept of victory. However, this mellowing in both their personalities simply makes them even more suited for each other. Kumagawa, who's still struggling on his personal journey to win, and Medaka, who (in some senses) wants to lower herself and become human, can meet each other in the middle.

I think Kumagawa's current feelings for Medaka probably stem from her just being a person whom he likes a lot and is interested in. His love/hatred used to be on an all-encompassing level: Medaka being the absolute existence he could never hope to achieve. With Medaka more human now, and Kumagawa also more human, they have a lot more common ground. As for the origin of Kumagawa's feelings, though, they are like I stated at the start: Medaka's "peerless strength", "soaring high-spirits", and "incredibly cool" personality.


appendix:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Zenkichi loves Medaka because he's been 'by her side' since they were little kids and because he's attracted to her. It's that simple.
Kumagawa loves her because Kumagawa wants to break her and her ideals. Kumagawa's love is twisted, like everything else about him.

If Zenkichi doesn't end up with Medaka I guarantee you he won't end up with anyone. Shipping is bad and you should stop doing it.
So, due to being by someone's side and being attracted to them you would find it sane to stab yourself in the stomach? I can buy Zenkichi being interested in Medaka, as you mentioned after that many years there'd be no reason not to pursue it if there were no other circumstances; but being determined/delusional enough to say something like "even in my next life, I'd be in love with her" is a whole 'nother question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I do lol at anyone who takes this shipping shit particularily seriously. The manga's not supposed to be taken seriously and not even Nisio takes it seriously. Trolling seems to be the word that sums up this manga and is largely the reason for most of these inconsistencies because Nisio didn't want to make the manga consistent. That's why there's a god like school girl on the good guys side in a this supposedly battle portion of the manga. And why there's no apparant plot.

Relax and be trolled, looking for anything deeper, will just end up trolling yourself. Doesn't mean you shouldn't ship just don't get too serious with it. Though there is some logical parts in this madness that makes upstuff as it goes along. Just don't assume everything is like that.
I will put it in simple terms, the true value of Medaka Box is not in any mindfuckery (i.e. "being trolled") but the character development. Kumagawa is shittons more enjoyable now as a "Joker" character, and Medaka is also lots more interesting having abandoned her "help every human" idealism (not to mention, being almost unbearable in the beginning with her entire "Saint" persona). Akune became a total bro-level character after he grew out of his submissive admiration of Medaka; Naze has become extremely cool and cute after she grew out of her "make even others miserable" stoicism. Even Ajimu had her touching moment and is now having fun. Saying "I like the plot twists" or being trolled is fine and all , but I would easily say that the best part of Medaka Box is watching the growth and becoming familiar with the many great and sympathetic characters.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-07-08 at 14:15.
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Old 2012-07-08, 14:38   Link #9954
ziggi92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, the point is that there is no "author says so" yet regarding why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka. Seriously, look through the manga: you can find explanations of why Medaka was in love with Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Emukae loves Zenkichi; you can find explanations of why Kumagawa loves or loved Medaka; etc. etc. But no explanation has been given yet for why Zenkichi loves Medaka, despite being such a huge underlying part of the series. This means it is obviously a setup. Most of the obvious things Nishio has left unexplained in the story have had some kind of twist/unexpected development associated with them.

Science was not brought up in any discussion regarding it playing a specific part in Medaka Box's universe. It was brought up in terms of the idea of whether love, or art/the (scientific) universe in general, can be understood rationally (i.e. in terms of logic).
I think there three reasons why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka most are past on few look at past where Zenkichi was 2 years old but still I think it can have affect on present Zenkichi:

1) Seeing as Medaka as Idol
There many parts in Manga where Zenkichi describes why people admire/love Medaka so why is Zenkichi no different from others.

When he was young / 2 years old he meet Medaka who could finish all the task which he gave her.

here we can see how he react to Medaka finishing a task which he would not finish himself:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/1373/me...y_cxc-scans/18

Zenkichi says: "Wow You're Amazing" remember Zenkichi was only 2 year old but still it can have affect to present similar how you look up to favorite sport figure wanting to become him so maybe his love came from first Admiring Medaka which evolved into Love for Her.


2)Wanting to protect her / don't make her Cry

This has been his motive being near Medaka I think it started way before accident in Middle school where Medaka went crazy but in hospital as we can see here:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/112246/...by_cxc-scans/8

He says to Medaka: "Don't not Cry Medaka chan I don't want to see you cry" after Seeing Medaka crying talking about How nobody was special and she was alone giving her impossible promise about about catching to up her so she would not be lonely as they says:
It's Lonely at the top.

Then there is incident at Middle school where he makes another impossible promise to himself to never let that kind of thing happened again.

Even Ready Sacrifice himself at Viper den with Kumagawa so he would not hurt Medaka plus Ready to make seppuku as sorry to others because his "love" to Medaka.

I can name another manga where this kind of romance happens: this kind romance happens many times I can name Naruto since this happens where Naruto is willing do anything for Sakura forsake of her not crying.


3) Medaka Protecting him
Common how many times are there that your female playmate is ready to smack your own mother as we can see here.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/112246/...by_cxc-scans/4

How can you not fall in love with her at that moment even if his face was clearly clueless of what had happened and before incident she made promise to would play with Him forever.

I can name another manga where this kind of romance happens: Freezing by Dall-Young Lim

I know he was just 2 years old yet all those reasons over here can have affect on present him.

Source: Medaka Box
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Old 2012-07-08, 14:50   Link #9955
Iron21
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Now I remember why I don't come in this thread as much any longer.



Seriously, some of you guys need to let it go. Science, really?
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Old 2012-07-08, 14:56   Link #9956
K. Shiruto
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If Nisio were to read some of the posts written in here, he would be laughing his ass off thinking how hopeless certain individuals can be sometimes.
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Old 2012-07-08, 16:09   Link #9957
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
I think there three reasons why Zenkichi is in love with Medaka most are past on few look at past where Zenkichi was 2 years old but still I think it can have affect on present Zenkichi:

1) Seeing as Medaka as Idol
There many parts in Manga where Zenkichi describes why people admire/love Medaka so why is Zenkichi no different from others.

When he was young / 2 years old he meet Medaka who could finish all the task which he gave her.

here we can see how he react to Medaka finishing a task which he would not finish himself:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/1373/me...y_cxc-scans/18

Zenkichi says: "Wow You're Amazing" remember Zenkichi was only 2 year old but still it can have affect to present similar how you look up to favorite sport figure wanting to become him so maybe his love came from first Admiring Medaka which evolved into Love for Her.


2)Wanting to protect her / don't make her Cry

This has been his motive being near Medaka I think it started way before accident in Middle school where Medaka went crazy but in hospital as we can see here:
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/112246/...by_cxc-scans/8

He says to Medaka: "Don't not Cry Medaka chan I don't want to see you cry" after Seeing Medaka crying talking about How nobody was special and she was alone giving her impossible promise about about catching to up her so she would not be lonely as they says:
It's Lonely at the top.

Then there is incident at Middle school where he makes another impossible promise to himself to never let that kind of thing happened again.

Even Ready Sacrifice himself at Viper den with Kumagawa so he would not hurt Medaka plus Ready to make seppuku as sorry to others because his "love" to Medaka.

I can name another manga where this kind of romance happens: this kind romance happens many times I can name Naruto since this happens where Naruto is willing do anything for Sakura forsake of her not crying.


3) Medaka Protecting him
Common how many times are there that your female playmate is ready to smack your own mother as we can see here.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/112246/...by_cxc-scans/4

How can you not fall in love with her at that moment even if his face was clearly clueless of what had happened and before incident she made promise to would play with Him forever.

I can name another manga where this kind of romance happens: Freezing by Dall-Young Lim

I know he was just 2 years old yet all those reasons over here can have affect on present him.

Source: Medaka Box
It's good to go through the manga and identify significant character points and everything but for the question of why Zenkichi loves Medaka all you really need to look to is ch. 126, which comes closest to directly addressing the question (but stops just beforehand, diverting to the red herring that Zenkichi is only sexually interested in Medaka).

1. Medaka is an idol/special
Zenkichi said he would choose Medaka over other people even if people on Medaka's level were created via the Flask Plan

2. Zenkichi wants to protect her/not let her cry
At that point in the story Zenkichi was facing the reality that Medaka didn't want or actually need his protection. Zenkichi revealed that he actually felt jealous of/admiration for people like Unzen, Miyakonojou, and Kumagawa, because of the way they were willing to stand up to her, and the way she responded to them.

3. Zenkichi wants Medaka to protect him, like she did when they were kids
Frankly I think this motivation would be pretty pathetic, and doesn't seem at all to fit Zenkichi's character.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-07-08, 17:18   Link #9958
ccie20012
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Quote:
2. Zenkichi wants to protect her/not let her cry
At that point in the story Zenkichi was facing the reality that Medaka didn't want or actually need his protection. Zenkichi revealed that he actually felt jealous of/admiration for people like Unzen, Miyakonojou, and Kumagawa, because of the way they were willing to stand up to her, and the way she responded to them.
I will not now touch the equations of quantum mechanics, let's talk about the more simple things.

it is completely not correct.
I have proof.
Medaka needs to Zen. She says it clearly. "I need him". She just embarrassed to depend on favorite (well, let's say as important for her) man.
http://postimage.org/image/ctudouvo3/

Her eyes shone with hope. Zen still catch up with me. That is, find me and help me.
http://s15.postimage.org/xdsqam1rf/Picture_353.png

"When I'm free, I can not imagine that you will not be there."
http://s14.postimage.org/wiv98m4zl/Picture_354.png
I can not imagine my (Medaka) life without you (Zen).

Zen does not interchangeable to any another man, and have a great feature - it makes Medaka humane. Not a superhero. A normal girl.
Therefore Zen >> any competitor.
No one can hug the Medaka and save her from herself.

That is, if we want a couple of Medaka and who else, it's just we want the bad ending Flask Plan arc. This option has already been discarded. If someone wants to Medaka-II, then it will not.
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Old 2012-07-08, 18:49   Link #9959
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
I will not now touch the equations of quantum mechanics, let's talk about the more simple things.

it is completely not correct.
I have proof.
Medaka needs to Zen. She says it clearly. "I need him". She just embarrassed to depend on favorite (well, let's say as important for her) man.
http://postimage.org/image/ctudouvo3/

Her eyes shone with hope. Zen still catch up with me. That is, find me and help me.
http://s15.postimage.org/xdsqam1rf/Picture_353.png

"When I'm free, I can not imagine that you will not be there."
http://s14.postimage.org/wiv98m4zl/Picture_354.png
I can not imagine my (Medaka) life without you (Zen).

Zen does not interchangeable to any another man, and have a great feature - it makes Medaka humane. Not a superhero. A normal girl.
Therefore Zen >> any competitor.
No one can hug the Medaka and save her from herself.

That is, if we want a couple of Medaka and who else, it's just we want the bad ending Flask Plan arc. This option has already been discarded. If someone wants to Medaka-II, then it will not.
None of your picture links work, but we're talking about Zenkichi's reasons here, not Medaka's. As for Medaka's reasons herself, read the whole ch. 153 again. Medaka said she wanted to be independent, i.e. she did not want to "need" Zen. Someone who "needs" others cannot be with others. Medaka is trying to become a human who does not have to depend on Zen.

Although Medaka cannot imagine a life without Zen, by definition if she is independent from him she will not need him. Furthermore, not imagining a life without Zen does not have anything to do with a romantic relationship.

For the record, making Medaka a "normal girl" who is in love/completely depends on Zen but is utterly perfect in every other manner is the worst way you can imagine to "humanize" her character. That isn't a "human" character, that's just a worthless male fantasy.
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Old 2012-07-08, 19:21   Link #9960
Tenchi Hou Take
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, if you really want an explanation for why Kumagawa loves Medaka I could go on a bit of a rant about it because I am a total Kumagawa x Medaka fanboy. Akune's love for Medaka, though, does lack somewhat of a direct explanation although it was associated with the moment Medaka converted him from his identity as "the Destroyer". In essence Akune's infatuation with Medaka was associated with his tendency to be influenced by any of the people he hangs around (this was explained during his vs. Wanizuka mini-arc): Akune's beliefs/behaviour kept changing drastically throughout the time he was under each of Kumagawa, Nabeshima, and Medaka. Particularly given that Akune's own nature is copying/modelling other people's abilities, he kept on searching for people/role-models to follow; and Medaka as the most absolute existence who stands above other people, made it natural for Akune who had that kind of tendency to want to follow her.

Anyway, Kumagawa's love for Medaka stems from ch. 90, page 7. I quote "Thoroughly strong, peerlessly amazing, soaringly high-spirited, and incredibly cool. An overwhelmingly absolute girl." Kumagawa's love basically stems from an admiration and fascination of the form of Medaka as an absolute winner, which is what Kumagawa wants to be. It easily makes sense why Kumagawa would be obsessed with Medaka, as someone who always loses.

The nuance, of course, is that Kumagawa's attitude towards the "winners" of life could never be called something as harmless as "admiration". I forget which chapter it is, but in one of the speeches Hitoyoshi-sensei (I think) gives about Kumagawa she talks about how Kumagawa falls in love with people easily (i.e. finds them cool, thinks they're admirable, etc.) but precisely because he's a loser who can never reach that level, the level to be together with them, he wants to pull them down and make them a miserable human. In essence, then, when he was in full Minus mode, Kumagawa's "love" was his desire to bind the "cool, smart, beautiful" people whom he admired to him by corrupting/breaking them to his own degenerative level.

Kumagawa didn't even realize that he was in love with Medaka until the start of their battle. He merely thought he hated her, because she stood for everything he could never acquire/accomplish. In the exact same way by representing those things, however, Medaka also stood for what Kumagawa most wanted. So that's why Kumagawa's monologue begins with "I really hated you, now and long ago; while I also loved you, now and long ago".

Of course, after the conclusion of Kumagawa and Medaka's battle, he became reformed and started to want to win, seriously. He began wanting to fight his fate, and understood that he was strong, personally. So in this respect, we can probably say that his hate for Medaka faded. Also, with the end of the Not Equals arc, Medaka lost the purpose of her life and in some senses became a little bit more human, so we may not have the scenario anymore where Medaka stands above Kumagawa. Medaka is no longer the "absolute" personality who stands for the very concept of victory. However, this mellowing in both their personalities simply makes them even more suited for each other. Kumagawa, who's still struggling on his personal journey to win, and Medaka, who (in some senses) wants to lower herself and become human, can meet each other in the middle.

I think Kumagawa's current feelings for Medaka probably stem from her just being a person whom he likes a lot and is interested in. His love/hatred used to be on an all-encompassing level: Medaka being the absolute existence he could never hope to achieve. With Medaka more human now, and Kumagawa also more human, they have a lot more common ground. As for the origin of Kumagawa's feelings, though, they are like I stated at the start: Medaka's "peerless strength", "soaring high-spirits", and "incredibly cool" personality.


appendix:



So, due to being by someone's side and being attracted to them you would find it sane to stab yourself in the stomach? I can buy Zenkichi being interested in Medaka, as you mentioned after that many years there'd be no reason not to pursue it if there were no other circumstances; but being determined/delusional enough to say something like "even in my next life, I'd be in love with her" is a whole 'nother question.



I will put it in simple terms, the true value of Medaka Box is not in any mindfuckery (i.e. "being trolled") but the character development. Kumagawa is shittons more enjoyable now as a "Joker" character, and Medaka is also lots more interesting having abandoned her "help every human" idealism (not to mention, being almost unbearable in the beginning with her entire "Saint" persona). Akune became a total bro-level character after he grew out of his submissive admiration of Medaka; Naze has become extremely cool and cute after she grew out of her "make even others miserable" stoicism. Even Ajimu had her touching moment and is now having fun. Saying "I like the plot twists" or being trolled is fine and all , but I would easily say that the best part of Medaka Box is watching the growth and becoming familiar with the many great and sympathetic characters.
I like how all your reasons for Kumagawa liking her are the same for Zenkichi, having being implied as such. Hmm, irony I think so. You know where Zenkichi thought she was a wonderful person who intially believed she was born to help others because of how much she helped him... Yeah... I find it a bit strange where you couldn't see the fact Zenkichi had the exact same admiration for Medaka as Kumagawa due to being a normal with nothing in comparison to her which had seemingly everything. In that context he was worse off than Kumagawa in regards to Kumagawa as he wasn't at all special.

They both lack real reasons if you look at it objectively without shipping goggles. But bias comes into play with you and Kumagawa. I wonder why. Anyway not that I care about the this shipping too much but you must admit your being kinda contradictory.
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