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Old 2012-07-11, 16:58   Link #10041
ccie20012
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Everyone I have my doubts. IMHO just as planned (Zen X Medaka).
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Old 2012-07-12, 02:34   Link #10042
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvis View Post
Everyone expected Medaka to reject Zenkichi, author trolled everyone and also killed him....
I wanted this to happen, but I was certain Nisio would have her reject him.
I'm quite happy with this turn of events.
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Old 2012-07-13, 08:59   Link #10043
silvercover
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and as of now, we can confirm that zenkichi does indeed have a harem that's still growing...
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Old 2012-07-13, 09:01   Link #10044
DawnEmperor
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I was kind of thinking over the archetypes and cliches which define each character

Here's something from Clarste from tv tropes(wondering if it's the same person that posts here)

"Kumagawa is fated to lose. He was born as a "villain", who has no choice but to lose to the hero in the end. No matter how much effort he puts into anything, no matter how skilled or cool he is, it's all going to come to nothing in the end. Even when he brings others down to his level, like Medaka, she still wins because he was born to lose. It's a cruel fate, and definitely a harsh look at shounen storytelling. I assume we all recognize this."

But Medaka is also sympathetic. She was born to win, but because of that has no goals to strive for. She doesn't know what to do with her life, so she keeps wearing different masks and changing herself completely. This makes her inhuman, a beast, a monster, but that's just because she doesn't know what it means to be human, having never had a human experience. You can't call her lonely, that much too human of an emotion, but she's more like a computer. All she can do is do what other people tell her to do, to the utmost extreme. She's still the little girl solving puzzle games and math problems just because people put them in front of her. She doesn't know any other way to live. The main character is nothing without an obstacle to move against."

Ajimu is of course Medaka taken to the extreme. She's basically God, only she realizes just how little that means. Because she can do anything, nothing she does matters. It's all just a story she's writing, a boring and pointless story that goes on forever with no ending in sight. There will always be new challenges, but since those challenges will always be solved soon enough there's never any tension. The endless escalation has no stopping place, but nor can she be allowed to die. The parallels to shounen series are obvious."

By contrast, Zenkichi is "half-assed". He always puts his all into everything he does, but what he chooses to do is always the wrong thing or unimportant. He's the support character. He can't be allowed to accomplish anything on his own. He's the eternal sidekick in everyone else's stories. He is both like and unlike Kumagawa in this respect. He's allowed to win, but his win is always made secondary. The spotlight avoids him. When Kumagawa loses, he does so with style, but not so for Zenkichi. When he wins, it turns out that his win was just a way for a more important character to step up and do something more important. When he loses, it's a way to hype up the villains."
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Old 2012-07-13, 10:16   Link #10045
ccie20012
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@silvercover
I can not agree. From the standpoint of Zen he has no harem.
Since the beginning of the manga he has no serious variant, different from Medaka.
In fact, this is a rare variant of the manga where the hero loves a _one_ girl for all the action.
I do not understand where is the harem?
Zen has ever hesitated - "perhaps I choose another girl?" or is the text of the manga "where he confesses in his feelings for another girl?"
In my opinion, the tag's harem misleading, certainly less than the "Medaka does not like Zen", but misleading.
Misleading like "the sun revolves around the earth" or "heavy objects fall faster (in vakuum)" - in this sense.
Especially since it makes no sense to talk about the expansion of the harem now.
At a time when the Zen x Medaka happy with each other.
Perhaps Ajimu love (or falling in love) with Zen - but this will not be any development.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think so.

@DawnEmperor
+5 cent about Zen and Medaka.
It reminds method of bisection (simple method for solving nonlinear equations) - in manga, they are moving towards each other.
Medaka from Abnormal to Abnormal + senses of ordinary girl.
Zen from Normal to Normal + ability, but he is an ordinary man (Zero in the classification of the manga).
Medaka -> ordinary girl
Zeen -> ordinary man + incredible abilities.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 11:11.
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Old 2012-07-13, 15:16   Link #10046
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
@silvercover
I can not agree. From the standpoint of Zen he has no harem.
Since the beginning of the manga he has no serious variant, different from Medaka.
In fact, this is a rare variant of the manga where the hero loves a _one_ girl for all the action.
I do not understand where is the harem?
Zen has ever hesitated - "perhaps I choose another girl?" or is the text of the manga "where he confesses in his feelings for another girl?"
In my opinion, the tag's harem misleading, certainly less than the "Medaka does not like Zen", but misleading.
Misleading like "the sun revolves around the earth" or "heavy objects fall faster (in vakuum)" - in this sense.
Especially since it makes no sense to talk about the expansion of the harem now.
At a time when the Zen x Medaka happy with each other.
Perhaps Ajimu love (or falling in love) with Zen - but this will not be any development.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think so.

@DawnEmperor
+5 cent about Zen and Medaka.
It reminds method of bisection (simple method for solving nonlinear equations) - in manga, they are moving towards each other.
Medaka from Abnormal to Abnormal + senses of ordinary girl.
Zen from Normal to Normal + ability, but he is an ordinary man (Zero in the classification of the manga).
Medaka -> ordinary girl
Zeen -> ordinary man + incredible abilities.
You must be new to the harem genre. It more common for a main character to chase after a single girl singlemindedly in a harem, than for him to treat all or many girls equally. So yes, by harem genre conventions he does have one. The main character either oblivious to the rest while chasing that girl, or not. But he's still usually chasing the one. Either that or he's not interested/doesn't care about love full stop.

Ironically in the case of shoujo the reverse if thise rarely happens. It's usually an I can't choose sceneario with some being hinted at being the main rather than, I don't know any other girls like me and when i find out I'm still going to chase the girl I've always been chasing.
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Old 2012-07-13, 16:25   Link #10047
ccie20012
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I understand you, but some disagree.
To my mind was clear, I will give examples of what I think is a real harem.

To make it easier to take the anime/manga/ranobe:

- DxD - this is a harem, I think it no needs a proof. Take it as a standard.
- To Love-Ru - another real harem. You know who will choose the main character? No one knows
- Asobi ni Iku yo! - Another real harem. "Then we all three (3-th girls) can be mistresses of MC" LOL
- Ichigo 100%
- Kampfer
- Omamori Himari
- Sekirei
- Konokon
- Magikano
- Love Hina
...
- Tenchi Muyo! - As father (or mother) harem genre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Harem_ (genre) _anime_and_manga

Harder can be called Nisemonogatari as harem. Rather, it is more a parody of the genre (especially after Bakemonogatari, when finally lined up the relationship Araragi x Hitagi). If you look to Nisemonogatari - it is more trolling the author - "I do not make such strange designs (the harem), and in any case, why in my harem a man in a Hawaiian shirt."

Of course, we can assume Medaka Box weak form of the harem (from the point of view that there is more of a girl in love with Zen). But this is a very weak form of the harem. If we compare the harem as the disease - there is not a dangerous disease, but only a slight cold.
There is also an important factor. Harem is a sign of Rom-Com or Rom-*. Everyone knows that the Rom-Com began only about 30 chapters ago.
My point of view, this, I do not think every love triangle - harem.

Look to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaka_Box
Genre: Action, School Life, Comedy, Romance
without tag harem

In one you're right. I'm not very objective. I do not like (not very like) harem genre lately. Last anime harem, where I was very good, was Sekirei. I'm like process add and add girls to harem.
Yes, i'm preferred Iseei x Rias over Iseei x harem.
Why?
Simply, it hinders the development of relations in pair.
They do not have time to start, as the author adds another girl.
And another girl ... Looks to Accel World anime.
But this criticism does not apply to Medaka Box.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 17:48.
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:44   Link #10048
silvercover
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harem = having more than 2 girls who like you. whether faceless or minor characters, it still counts.

it counts whether or not there is ecchi/comedy in the series. it could be a dark series that is depressing, as long as at least 3 girls like one guy it counts as having one.

and obviously harem is not just a genre. a series that doesnt focus on ecchi doesnt necessarily mean that there will be no ecchi scenes nor would a serious and dark anime have no comedic and funny scenes at all.

like for example, you can find a hint of romance in practically any anime regardless of whether it focuses on it or would just stick to "friendship" at best. romance is a genre, but you can find several "romantic" scenes in most anime that arent classified as romance.
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Old 2012-07-13, 21:03   Link #10049
orangejuicetang
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Speaking of which, we actually got the games of the remaining suitors, and I'm surprised that the dark loli didn't correspond to the fake lolicon suitor, but rather the fake suitor who was into 2d. But after thinking about it, it makes sense considering her style, where she turns people into 2d cards. The remaining suitors are the princess which corresponds to the underwear fetish fake suitor, and the last one who corresponds to the lolicon fake suitor. It'd be interesting to see how princess and other lady's ability correspond to their corresponding fake suitor's fetish.
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Old 2012-07-13, 22:13   Link #10050
ccie20012
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@silvercover
Wiki think different
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(genre)
1. genre
2. a protagonist surrounded, usually amorously, by three or more members of the opposite sex.
3. where the main character pursues a romantic relationship with multiple other characters simultaneously

Hmm ...
President: Zenkichi Hitoyoshi
Vice President: Youka Naze
Treasurer: Mukae Emukae
Secretary: Shori Wanizuka
General Affairs Manager: Kudaki Torai

It's Hitoyoshi harem? Really?

I understand that strictly scientific harem can not identify. But your definition is also not full correct. So we all (almost all) of the anime describe as - "harem".
In almost every:
- There is a romantic line (though some sort of)
- If there is a romantic line - must be have a rival
- The main female + opposite female (your harem formula) = harem

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 22:32.
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Old 2012-07-13, 22:53   Link #10051
novalysis
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Let's see. Mukae's friendzoned, Munakata the Younger has hots for Akune. Naze's likely either bi-sexual or asexual, Torai and Zenkichi's relationship is strictly professional.

A harem? Really? If any thing, Kumugawa has more of a harem than Zenkichi!
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Old 2012-07-13, 23:00   Link #10052
Iby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
Wiki think different
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(genre)
a protagonist surrounded, usually amorously, by three or more members of the opposite sex.
And that's all. I don't know where you got that 3rd point (and it isn't "must" in a harem genre). The main character can pursue only one female (like Zenkichi) or no females at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
In almost every:
- There is a romantic line (though some sort of)
- If there is a romantic line - must be have a rival
- The main female + opposite female (your harem formula) = harem
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
by three or more members of the opposite sex.
And you're speaking about two members.

Personally I don't like this genre too much ("spineless main character + overpowered females in his harem" - too stinks for me), but interesting series appear sometimes. Also I don't think that Asobi or DxD can be counted as harem - both have only two females romantically interested in main character.
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:01   Link #10053
Soji
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Iby@ To be fair High School Dxd is a harem and one that go down the route of a true harem. You can see this in the LN. If you only read the manga or /and see the anime,then of course you say like this.

novalysis@Anyway ,like other say is still a harem. I mean ....not get me wrong I understand you're point . But like the other say there is no need that Zen or the male want more than one girls for the harem to happen. The only thing need is that more that one girl like the male.(or at least this is how harem gender is nowday).
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:18   Link #10054
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
@silvercover
Wiki think different
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(genre)
1. genre
2. a protagonist surrounded, usually amorously, by three or more members of the opposite sex.
3. where the main character pursues a romantic relationship with multiple other characters simultaneously

Hmm ...
President: Zenkichi Hitoyoshi
Vice President: Youka Naze
Treasurer: Mukae Emukae
Secretary: Shori Wanizuka
General Affairs Manager: Kudaki Torai

It's Hitoyoshi harem? Really?

I understand that strictly scientific harem can not identify. But your definition is also not full correct. So we all (almost all) of the anime describe as - "harem".
In almost every:
- There is a romantic line (though some sort of)
- If there is a romantic line - must be have a rival
- The main female + opposite female (your harem formula) = harem
shiranui, emukae, medaka, and ajimu are now clear. you can add torai and the sword girl possibly, and some have been saying naze too for how she just placed herself as his VP.

enough to be a harem.
romantic line: emukae and medaka have professed their love, shiranui didnt say it to his face yet but has admitted on how sweet zenkichi is, and ajimu is starting to be annoyed now.
and your 2nd point is flawed more. sora no otoshimono, hoshizora, oretatachi ni tsubasa, kampfer, omamori,etc. dont have a rival. in fact, there are hardly any rivals in harem actually...
3rd is completely wrong. if its only 2 girls, its a love triangle.

@novalysis
for kumagawa... list down a girl who likes him then. the only one that comes to mind for me is the girl who strikes in her speeches.
if your referring to kumagawa chasing other girls though... well its a pursuit of harem but he doesnt have one, right? unlike zenkichi.
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:28   Link #10055
Sol Falling
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Zen obviously does have a harem. At the very least you have three girls in the form of Medaka, Shiranui, and Emukae. Beyond those three I think any other girl's feelings are debatable (the creative delusions which end up suggesting that Ajimu is interested in Zenkichi romantically, for example), but it's undeniable that Zenkichi has multiple love interests.

On the other hand, Zenkichi having a harem in itself still doesn't necessarily even indicate that Medaka Box is a harem (as in, a story within the harem genre). In the first place that presumes the premise that Zenkichi is the main character, a designation which is at least equally carried by Medaka. Besides that, Medaka Box regularly shows an obvious focus on far more important themes than "a bunch of girls are interested in one guy romantically". Out of Zenkichi's supposed harem, you could hardly even say Shiranui's interest in him has any significance in the story.
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Old 2012-07-14, 01:52   Link #10056
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Medaka Box may not be a harem but Zenikichi is way up there with the likes Negi or Touma, in terms of competency. Zenikichi is a far cry from the useless harem leads who only become awesome after getting some power up or plot device.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:00   Link #10057
ccie20012
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@silvercover
"more than 2" - I agree. My last argument is wrong. However, he does not refer to Medaka Box. It's a "counter example". Because I made a mistake in your text source (where it was written more than two - i'm read two (!) Or more), then the "counter example" turned out wrong.

For Medaka Box tag "harem" does not look natural.

I'm more agree it's classical love triangle Emukae x Zen x Medaka.
Zen love -> Medaka.
Emukae love -> Zen. (classic love rival). Emukae make as "classic love rival".
Medaka love -> Zen.

Zen x Medaka = win. Just as planned

Plus
Zenkichi has multiple love interests
and
More then 1 girls like to Zen - it's different.
Love interests Zen: 1:1
Love interests girls N:1 ... N=2 (IMHO)

It's love triangle from girls side - it is more accurate.

@novalysis Agree.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:29   Link #10058
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Zen obviously does have a harem. At the very least you have three girls in the form of Medaka, Shiranui, and Emukae. Beyond those three I think any other girl's feelings are debatable (the creative delusions which end up suggesting that Ajimu is interested in Zenkichi romantically, for example), but it's undeniable that Zenkichi has multiple love interests
Three girls do constitute for harem but I think many would argue if Shiranui's interest is all that romantic. If you would take her out then instead of a harem it would a love triangle.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:32   Link #10059
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Three girls do constitute for harem but I think many would argue if Shiranui's interest is all that romantic. If you would take her out then instead of a harem it would a love triangle.
Neh it's romantic she's just given up, but as Aijimu implies she does have feelings for him. That fact she stated it was love pretty much says it all.
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Old 2012-07-14, 06:38   Link #10060
Gundamx
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Didn't his new General Affairs Manager like him too?
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