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Old 2012-09-27, 02:00   Link #10661
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, I can imagine you would think the Shiritori game was shit when you can't even be assed to pick up on and follow along the rules of a basic game of Shiritori. That doesn't say anything about the quality of the series, just your own complete lack of effort and ignorance.
Hey, I fucking love Shiritori. That was some hardcore Shiritori.
What was incredibly stupid was how Medaka manipulated the language used by everybody in the room, somehow, without any sort of real explanation behind how she did it. That, on top of how much of a kick in the balls her treatment of Zenkichi was at the end of the chapter, even after they kissed in front of the whole school, even after she accepted his marriage proposal, and even after he flew halfway around the world to find her. He at least deserved a goddamn "thank you".
But we've been through that before. It was a bad chapter because Medaka is not and has never been a particularly good character and only when that is the point (or when she doesn't appear at all) is the manga a worthwhile read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you can't even grasp the basic idea that a manga like Medaka Box isn't written for you, and that a high percentage of any supposed "shortcomings" you notice are actually your own inadequacies in being unable to comprehend the original intention and the native audience, then things are just hopeless for you.
I wonder how far one's head has to be up one's ass to write something like this and actually believe it. A fiction being written with the intent of being read by Japanese readers does not invalidate my or anyone else's criticism of it.
And really, "it's brilliant you just don't get it" is the oldest poor defense in the book.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I guess I should clarify, as a Kumagawa x Medaka fan
Also, as an aside, I'm of the opinion that this some of the most willfully blind shipping I have ever seen. Even Emukae had more of a chance with Zenkichi than that ever happening.
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Old 2012-09-27, 06:05   Link #10662
novalysis
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My take is that Medaka used one of the skills in her arsenal, acquired through the end. Or Ajimu might have passed a skill to Medaka off-screen in relation to that.

Seriously, when you consider it, Medaka is all but an Ajimu Junior in many ways, with the huge collection of skills she's been picking up through "The End".
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Old 2012-09-27, 07:54   Link #10663
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So you're saying the fanservice has NOTHING to do with ratings? You don't think they might just buy the manga to see if there's some cute ass or something shown at that particular chapter? Hey, I don't know the reason they buy. Neither do you. I'm assuming, you're assuming. My assumption is just as valid.

~~~~

Sol, you realize you're literally saying I should've mistrusted the manga completely and not expected it to turn into "Zenkichi Box", when that's exactly what Nishio put in his ending for the past previous arc?

Are you really saying that? Are you really saying my "expectations were too high" or that "I was reading too much into it" so that I never saw the obvious coming?

No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.

And the previous arc was the showcase of that. And that's why it's horribly boring.

Really, you're literally saying "You should've seen that the manga, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't going to change, it's just too deep, you misread, didn't get it". Don't you realize you're just substituting your own thoughts into the story because Nishio left a giant gap in coherence due to trolling?

Nishio isn't deep or complex with what he did, he's just inconsistant.
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Old 2012-09-27, 11:44   Link #10664
Kaisos Erranon
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Spoiler for 164:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.
Everything here, pretty much.
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:31   Link #10665
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hey, I fucking love Shiritori. That was some hardcore Shiritori.
What was incredibly stupid was how Medaka manipulated the language used by everybody in the room, somehow, without any sort of real explanation behind how she did it. That, on top of how much of a kick in the balls her treatment of Zenkichi was at the end of the chapter, even after they kissed in front of the whole school, even after she accepted his marriage proposal, and even after he flew halfway around the world to find her. He at least deserved a goddamn "thank you".
But we've been through that before. It was a bad chapter because Medaka is not and has never been a particularly good character and only when that is the point (or when she doesn't appear at all) is the manga a worthwhile read.
I posted some of the finer details of how Medaka manipulated the use of people's language in one of my posts above. Your impression of "without any sort of real explanation" is exactly the sort of failure in communication I was talking about. The fact that you assume "just because I didn't see anything there, there's nothing there" is extremely flawed when you consider the inherent obstacles you face in understanding the material the way a native reader would. While the Japanese readers are not perfect, their own perspectives should be assumed to be better-informed and more relevant than your own in any evaluation.

Also, trolling of the Zenkichi x Medaka romance is part of the point of this series. It's been going on from the very beginning. The minority of readers who haven't caught onto any of this/have chosen to ignore it and still actually support/enjoy the pairing is very small. It's no surprise that your anger over Medaka's supposed treatment of Zenkichi isn't particularly reflected by the audience.

Quote:
I wonder how far one's head has to be up one's ass to write something like this and actually believe it. A fiction being written with the intent of being read by Japanese readers does not invalidate my or anyone else's criticism of it.
And really, "it's brilliant you just don't get it" is the oldest poor defense in the book.

Also, as an aside, I'm of the opinion that this some of the most willfully blind shipping I have ever seen. Even Emukae had more of a chance with Zenkichi than that ever happening.
"You don't get it" doesn't imply "it's brilliant". It says "you don't get it", just that. At that point, it doesn't even matter whether it's "brilliant" or not, but rather whether you can even appreciate the story enough to want to keep reading it.

As for shipping, I'm a person who came out of the Lelouch x Shirley Code Geass shipping war on the winning side. When you've got a literary basis for the significance of your ship in the story, it pays to have some optimism. The question is not even whether or not Kumagawa will win anymore, Nishio has made clear he is going to explore this relationship in the series, and I am going to enjoy whatever he gives us regarding it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
So you're saying the fanservice has NOTHING to do with ratings? You don't think they might just buy the manga to see if there's some cute ass or something shown at that particular chapter? Hey, I don't know the reason they buy. Neither do you. I'm assuming, you're assuming. My assumption is just as valid.
Sure, fanservice might be one of the reasons people read/buy Medaka Box. Fanservice alone has clearly never been enough to actually make Medaka Box popular, however. And the reason for not even considering fanservice at all in this case is that the chapter in question featured no particularly greater degree of fanservice than any other chapter.

Quote:
Sol, you realize you're literally saying I should've mistrusted the manga completely and not expected it to turn into "Zenkichi Box", when that's exactly what Nishio put in his ending for the past previous arc?

Are you really saying that? Are you really saying my "expectations were too high" or that "I was reading too much into it" so that I never saw the obvious coming?

No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.

And the previous arc was the showcase of that. And that's why it's horribly boring.

Really, you're literally saying "You should've seen that the manga, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't going to change, it's just too deep, you misread, didn't get it". Don't you realize you're just substituting your own thoughts into the story because Nishio left a giant gap in coherence due to trolling?

Nishio isn't deep or complex with what he did, he's just inconsistant.
The root of your problem is that you projected your dislike for Medaka and desire for Zen to become the "real" MC onto the actual manga. In reality Nishio's intention was only to develop Zenkichi into a main character, because not many people over in Japan actually hate Medaka, and nobody in particular wants her to be replaced (at least by Zen, in any case). I do think you got really carried away and didn't see the obvious coming. You became influenced by the general sentiments/beliefs of the western community that "Medaka sux" and "Zen should/is going to become an alpha MC" were reflective of the opinions/intent in the actual manga/audience. Because you were only exposed to a community who only wanted the same thing you did, you started to expect a massive change as opposed to an incremental step. The fact is that Zenkichi's "MCness" did level up ever since the Not Equals arc, but it was delusional to ever think that he was gonna legitimately replace Medaka. This point has nothing to do with Medaka Box being deep or anything, only the simple reality of Medaka Box's actual audience over in Japan, and the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:44   Link #10666
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Yes how dare we uneducated peasants say anything when we clearly don't understand this manga. Please enlighten us oh almighty Sol and share your wisdom. Help us get rid of our ignorance because it's clearly that you understand everything and can grasp everything about Medaka Box and Nishio.

Get your head out of your ass and stop pretending you know anything. Unless you are Nishio I don't want to hear crap like "you don't understand" or "you can't comprehend". The don't understand defence is as embarrassing as it's stupid. Can't believe you wrote that with a straight face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If something is (comparatively) well liked over in Japan, there's probably a significant reason for it, and you'd be well served trying to actually figure that reason out before you resort to
That's a good one. I lol'd

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This point has nothing to do with Medaka Box being deep or anything, only the simple reality of Medaka Box's actual audience over in Japan, and the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
oh boy...
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:49   Link #10667
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So, Iihiko sure hits hard
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:51   Link #10668
Vigo
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So, Iihiko sure hits hard
That's why I can't imagine that Oudo is the one to defeat him.
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:09   Link #10669
Tenchi Hou Take
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Oh I just got it. Next chapter a color page about animes second season, primary antagonist Oudo, Oudo's reintroduction.
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:13   Link #10670
Vigo
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Oh I just got it. Next chapter a color page about animes second season, primary antagonist Oudo, Oudo's reintroduction.
Where did the first season stop? Before the flask plan arc?
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:28   Link #10671
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Where did the first season stop? Before the flask plan arc?
it just about after medaka beating unzen.

i bet S2 will end with kumagawa introduction
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:32   Link #10672
Sol Falling
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The anime reintroduction is pretty cool and all, but I hope there's actually a good in-story reason for what's been happening lately in the story. In particular, because

Spoiler for the 164 spoilers:
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:41   Link #10673
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If Medaka is designated to be the RPG "hero" of the story than perhaps IIhiko is the designated "demon lord"?
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:53   Link #10674
ziggi92
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I think this quote shows what Nishio is really doing : that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. (William Faulkner)
just like many other writers like George R.R. Martin are trying to do.
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Old 2012-09-27, 14:15   Link #10675
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
I think this quote shows what Nishio is really doing : that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. (William Faulkner)
just like many other writers like George R.R. Martin are trying to do.
Funny how the Daenerys chapters in Dance are generally agreed-upon as being the worst thing he has ever written.
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
So, Iihiko sure hits hard
It makes one wonder exactly how the Shiranui control him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
While the Japanese readers are not perfect, their own perspectives should be assumed to be better-informed and more relevant than your own in any evaluation.
Listen, you're making it out to be much more complicated than it actually is; the manga tells us WHAT Medaka did to manipulate the language used in the room, but not HOW.
I would have no problem if it was justified as her using The End to mimic and 120% what the suitors were doing, but it's not presented that way and nor should we assume that was the intention without any basis to go on.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
When you've got a literary basis for the significance of your ship in the story, it pays to have some optimism.
What bloody literary basis? What the fuck?
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Also, trolling of the Zenkichi x Medaka romance is part of the point of this series. It's been going on from the very beginning. The minority of readers who haven't caught onto any of this/have chosen to ignore it and still actually support/enjoy the pairing is very small.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
Let me turn your own argument back on you, ignoring for a moment the fact that Medaka spends quite of a bit of the manga in an antagonistic role: Do you really think any writer would spend 140 fucking chapters of a manga setting up a relationship just for the sake of "trolling"?
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Old 2012-09-27, 14:55   Link #10676
Randrak42
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Readers: "The story is cool...but with those 3 monsters there's no real sense of threat...even the dead can be easily brought back to life and damage repaired, plus nobody can match Medaka in a fight..."

Nishio: "Hey, meet Iihiko...have fun."
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:06   Link #10677
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Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:12   Link #10678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
Well, Create was his project name
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:16   Link #10679
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was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:19   Link #10680
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Listen, you're making it out to be much more complicated than it actually is; the manga tells us WHAT Medaka did to manipulate the language used in the room, but not HOW.
I would have no problem if it was justified as her using The End to mimic and 120% what the suitors were doing, but it's not presented that way and nor should we assume that was the intention without any basis to go on.
The manga gives hints as to how. 1. The specific sequence Medaka stopped people from saying, "usan", was used in Medaka's own word at the start of the trick ("Ryuusanmu"). 2. Through her calculated questions about the rules, Medaka tempted Momo (who was said to have a "bad personality") to aim for one of the loopholes Medaka didn't clarify. By knowing Momo's goal, Medaka manipulated Momo's Shiritori word choices, guiding Momo to the point where her only syllables left were "u", "sa", and "n".

These are just a couple of hints I picked up from rereading the chapters in English again, I'm sure there are many more subtleties/causal connections you could make if you read it in Japanese.

Quote:
What bloody literary basis? What the fuck?
The narrative themes, etc., basically. We're not at a particularly relevant point in the story right now so I dunno if I'm prepared to just list off an analysis, but basically think about questions like "what is ultimately Medaka's human story?", "what struggles/concepts does Kumagawa represent?", etc. The beginning of everything we've seen for Medaka Box as a story so far (except for this latest Shiranui arc and the Not Equals characters) is pretty much Medaka's meeting with Zenkichi as a child in the hospital. At that same period, Medaka met child Kumagawa as well. The words that Kumagawa spoke at that time: "Humans are born for no reason; live unrelated; and die worthlessly" represents one perspective of reality. The alternative that young (naive) Zenkichi provided Medaka, "I'm sure you were born to help people", ended up saving Kumagawa. The human struggle Medaka is living with is finding herself after abandoning the overly-idealistic, humanly unsustainable purpose Zenkichi gave to her. The human struggle that Kumagawa embodies is continuing to find the will to fight, and live, and struggle for the sake of winning even despite knowing the hopelessness/distortion of the idealism which saved him. Both Kumagawa and Medaka are lost between the void of the blank cynicism Kumagawa expressed as a child and the blinding, inhuman optimism Zenkichi gave Medaka. The resolution of both of them into humans with a strong, healthy resolution towards reality and to life (i.e. presumably their characterizations by the end of the series) is a long journey throughout which their companionship would be absolutely complementary.

As a person to teach Medaka what being a human means--particularly the weak, painful and ugly parts of it--there is no better person than Kumagawa. And as a person to teach Kumagawa how to be strong, love others and fight adversity, there is no better person than Medaka. In the context of all the characters' journey of characterization as a whole, there is no better outcome.


Quote:
Let me turn your own argument back on you, ignoring for a moment the fact that Medaka spends quite of a bit of the manga in an antagonistic role: Do you really think any writer would spend 140 fucking chapters of a manga setting up a relationship just for the sake of "trolling"?
Nishio's portrayal of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship thus far, has all been for the sake of character development. The aim of this character development is to address some of the greater themes of humanity. One of Zenkichi's principle themes is his ultimate optimism. That aspect of him is so strong it survived even the thrashing and challenge it received from Ajimu's breakdown of his character during the Not Equals arc. If one of the core defining features of Zenkichi is his positive belief in life despite any circumstances, then it makes sense for him to survive even the final challenge of giving up his love for Medaka.

Zenkichi's former love for Medaka was a symbol of the externalism of Zenkichi's optimism. Before Ajimu forced him to reform himself, Zenkichi's belief in the "Plus"ness of the world was intrinsically connected to Medaka. Whenever anything represented a threat to Medaka, all of Zenkichi's friendliness and positive belief in people turned into antagonism and hate. Medaka was a symbol for Zenkichi's positive belief in the world.

After Ajimu made Zenkichi realize how he was separate from Medaka, he lost his optimism for a brief time. However, he eventually gained it back in a manner which was separate from the way he was treated by Medaka, or his (present) relationship with her. Zenkichi formed a resolution for a positive belief towards the world independent of external factors, which is fully symbolized by the existence and significance of his skill, Devil Style. Now Zenkichi believes "even if Medaka isn't with me now, she'll be there tomorrow". However, when Zenkichi's characterization reaches the point that he can believe in the meaning/worth of the world, even without the condition that he must someday (romantically) be with Medaka, then his character development will be complete. Basically, the only point at which we will be able to truly describe Zenkichi's character as strong, is when his faith in others/the world and his positive belief in life are completely independent of Medaka.

Basically, the premise these analyses have been based on is this:
Medaka Box is not a story about love or romance. It is a story about humanity and character development. That's why there is no absolute dictum making Medaka x Zenkichi necessary.
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Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

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