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Old 2012-09-27, 15:22   Link #10681
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
This might actually play into a legitimate reason for Oudo's involvement in the plot-line though. Although I don't particularly think Oudo's title is literal. Still, this is really interesting, great catch!
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:51   Link #10682
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Well, Create was his project name
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
It's still worth thinking about; Oudo is easily one of the most "positive" Abnormals out there, rivaling both Medaka (at least, the Medaka at the time) and the Plus Six.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Nishio: "Hey, meet Iihiko...have fun."
Of course now we have to justify how everyone's wounds are going to heal because I highly doubt that we can have a manga at all with the central characters unconscious or bleeding forever.
...Actually that would be sort of interesting.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
These are just a couple of hints I picked up from rereading the chapters in English again, I'm sure there are many more subtleties/causal connections you could make if you read it in Japanese.
You're missing the point. That's still what rather than how. It's insane to think that just by omitting three common syllables from your own speech that you can force others to do the same.
And no, the ability to write enormous walls of text about your desired ship does not increase the possibility of it becoming true.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:03   Link #10683
Wolfenstein
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Oh, ok, so now you're calling people delusional because they believed the words the manga outright stated?

No-one is making any delusion about substituting one main character for the other. The Manga stated they were doing that. This was stated. This was happening. The entire point of the True Flask Plan arc was to make Zenkichi into this new world's main character. No-one imagined that. And that's why the closure of the TFP arc is fine, the after-effects are horrible.

Nishio just simply didn't have the balls to continue, because I guess Zenkichi just dosen't have the tits and ass or something, since Nishio himself points out multiple times how he's a better character than Medaka and how he completely invalidates the notion of the mary sue MC who always wins. He's supposed to be new, interesting, in stark to the vapid and shallow character that is Medaka and her 2/5 good council. You cannot deny that Nishio was throwing the idea of "Zenkichi Box" in our faces and getting us all hyped for something brand new and interesting. He's just inconsistant about it, and there lies everyone's problem that you can't seem to grasp. Because instead, all we got was "Medaka does what she always does; beat everyone with completely whacky strategies or overwhelming power!"

Yea. He wrote 140 chapters all to show how Medaka was a horrible character simply to deconstruct it in the latter ones. And during all of those she still got 1-2 popularity spots with comparatively much better characters alongside her.

What does that tell you about Japanese readers?

I'll tell you:

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:23   Link #10684
summers
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So what was the amazing trolling thing people were talking about? So things he breaks stay broken.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:23   Link #10685
zigantz22
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Concerning Sol's analysis of the relationships, despite all your theories on the larger, nuanced characterization to come, I think you're reading a bit too much into the potential narrative, especially in regards to what said narrative will mean for Medaka's characterization, and how that relates to her relationship with Zenkichi, and her unexplored, non-existent relationship with Kumagawa.

Essentially, I really don't see anything but a Medaka x Zenkichi outcome at this point. I certainly haven't perceived any hints towards Kumagawa x Medaka ever happening. Basically all of Zenkichi's previously potential relationships are far more possible to materialize, though still extremely unlikely. Nishio, I feel, has made the Medaka x Zenkichi outcome rather inevitable.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:26   Link #10686
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summers View Post
So what was the amazing trolling thing people were talking about? So things he breaks stay broken.
He's implying he's permanently killing of Aijimu and all charactsers are now permanent cripples. Either the manga ends really soon, takes a dramatic turn or most likely this all is reversed contradicting what was previously said in usual bad writing style. Which do you thing is the most likely?
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:27   Link #10687
Kurosu
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So here's my say on this, there's something iffy going on here. We're do for a swerve of some kind, because I'm not buying any of this emotion Shiranui is displaying to us. She's supposed to be playing a role of some kind, presumably one that surprised even her and it came from ol' mastermind Kajiki himself. It's almost a bit cliche as to how the situation has been developing with her, and almost too predictable, so I'm not really buying her involvement in this as we're currently made to believe. And for Iihiko to appear during their interrogation of Shiranui seemed a bit too coincidental to match. Also, Iihiko's ability is that all the damage he causes is permanent? That doesn't exactly explain away Anshin'in losing all those times in the past, unless none of those matches were fights where Anshin'in could get injured.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:34   Link #10688
Wolfenstein
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This Medaka/Shiranui interaction was so awkward and weird. Kurusu is right. Something is amiss.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:40   Link #10689
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
So here's my say on this, there's something iffy going on here. We're do for a swerve of some kind, because I'm not buying any of this emotion Shiranui is displaying to us. She's supposed to be playing a role of some kind, presumably one that surprised even her and it came from ol' mastermind Kajiki himself. It's almost a bit cliche as to how the situation has been developing with her, and almost too predictable, so I'm not really buying her involvement in this as we're currently made to believe. And for Iihiko to appear during their interrogation of Shiranui seemed a bit too coincidental to match. Also, Iihiko's ability is that all the damage he causes is permanent? That doesn't exactly explain away Anshin'in losing all those times in the past, unless none of those matches were fights where Anshin'in could get injured.
While the Shiranui is indeed weird with something likely amiss. It was stated that he never tryed to kill Aijimu in those fights and may not have even tried to seriously hurt her. Likely partly due to the fact Aijimu probably instigated all those fights since she was out to defeat him.
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Old 2012-09-27, 17:11   Link #10690
summers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
He's implying he's permanently killing of Aijimu and all charactsers are now permanent cripples. Either the manga ends really soon, takes a dramatic turn or most likely this all is reversed contradicting what was previously said in usual bad writing style. Which do you thing is the most likely?
Oh so you guys are saying that the obvious next couple of chapters will be the troll. Makes sense. Kumgawa will save the day, and make the fact that the ever met this guy fiction, instead of making the fact that they were attacked or the damage fiction.
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Old 2012-09-27, 17:21   Link #10691
K. Shiruto
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Either they get all demolished, manage to escape themselves, or many sacrifices are made.

But boy, if Anshin has really been killed and is down for the count, that's gonna be quite the shock.
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Old 2012-09-27, 19:19   Link #10692
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're missing the point. That's still what rather than how. It's insane to think that just by omitting three common syllables from your own speech that you can force others to do the same.
And no, the ability to write enormous walls of text about your desired ship does not increase the possibility of it becoming true.
Did you even read what I wrote? Medaka didn't omit the three characters from her speech. She specifically said them in her first word for the shiritori game.

Also, that was hardly a wall of text, lol. I provided a simple straightforward paragraph followed by a short three sentence summary. The second section was an answer to your question about why there are zero obstacles to Nishio throwing away the Zen x Medaka romantic relationship. At this point, you're clearly not even trying.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Oh, ok, so now you're calling people delusional because they believed the words the manga outright stated?

No-one is making any delusion about substituting one main character for the other. The Manga stated they were doing that. This was stated. This was happening. The entire point of the True Flask Plan arc was to make Zenkichi into this new world's main character. No-one imagined that. And that's why the closure of the TFP arc is fine, the after-effects are horrible.
lol, yes you guys were delusional. The "manga" did not state they were doing that, the primary antagonist did. Believing that Zenkichi would have legitimately replaced Medaka as the main character is as delusional as believing that Ajimu would have really ended the manga, or here now that Ajimu is actually dead, or that Medaka will really never use her right arm again. The fact that you're believing so easily in every little twist or exaggerated hype statement that comes up, instead of taking into account the overall general picture or progression of the entire manga, proves that you're the one reacting like the people described in this pic, not the Japanese readers.

Quote:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Nishio just simply didn't have the balls to continue, because I guess Zenkichi just dosen't have the tits and ass or something, since Nishio himself points out multiple times how he's a better character than Medaka and how he completely invalidates the notion of the mary sue MC who always wins. He's supposed to be new, interesting, in stark to the vapid and shallow character that is Medaka and her 2/5 good council. You cannot deny that Nishio was throwing the idea of "Zenkichi Box" in our faces and getting us all hyped for something brand new and interesting. He's just inconsistant about it, and there lies everyone's problem that you can't seem to grasp. Because instead, all we got was "Medaka does what she always does; beat everyone with completely whacky strategies or overwhelming power!"
Hahaha no, Nishio did not "not have the balls to continue" making Zen a non-irrelevant character. The fundamental point of Zenkichi is to be a non-relevant character. Do you not remember what Devil Style does? "Don't give me any MC benefits! Let everything that happens to me happen normally, and let everything I try to do end up with a predictable result normally!" So obviously he could never hope to become the real main character of an Abnormal manga. Unless you were hoping for Medaka Box to become a slice of life manga , I don't know what the hell you mean you were expecting the story to become "new and interesting". Zenkichi's existence as a "new and interesting" main character itself, as someone who has a chance to go up against abnormal "standard" main characters and prove the strength of his effort and determination, is only even possible if Medaka continues pulling in abnormal storylines to give Zenkichi a chance to do something.

Quote:
Yea. He wrote 140 chapters all to show how Medaka was a horrible character simply to deconstruct it in the latter ones. And during all of those she still got 1-2 popularity spots with comparatively much better characters alongside her.
That is called "character development", dude. One of the most important points of a story. Medaka was a crappy, retarded MC at the start, then Nishio deconstructed her to make her into a human, likeable character. Do you honestly think if Nishio went through so much drama and development for a character he was gonna replace her with some other main character? Get real, think from an author's point of view, and come back to reality.


On the issue of how the hell any of the characters are gonna recover from being beaten up by Iihiko: I'm gonna guess that the Shiranui may possess some restorative abilities counter/opposite to Iihiko's destructive charactericteristics. If they are the ones who are repressing him, right? At the very least, Hanten might be able to do something.

My impression of what's going on right now, is that Obi is actually letting Iihiko destroy and rampage a bit out of punishment. Do you remember how Kumagawa revealed that Shiranui actually left her feelings at Hakoniwa Academy, and wanted Medaka & co. to follow her? As a result of that, everybody did come to Shiranui village. And it's a further result of that, that Zenkichi, Kumagawa, Ajimu, Medaka, etc. are now completely beaten up by Iihiko.

Since the Shiranui mission is supposedly to devote their lives to being doubles and erasing themselves of any personal emotion, Shiranui's feelings for "Hakoniwa Academy" are a crime. As a result, Obi has let Iihiko loose for awhile in order to punish her.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
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Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-09-27, 19:54   Link #10693
Wolfenstein
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So, you're still telling us that we're completely delusional for believing what the manga was leading us to believe, while at the same time calling us ignorant for our un-enlightened opinions on the manga, because you're analysing it so deeply, and are so into yourself, you can't see all you're doing is probably filling in blank space with your own thoughts, instead of recognizing Nishio's blatent inconsistancy with the end of the Jet-Black Bride arc?

Don't get me wrong, you seem like a bright fellow. But maybe that's why you're reading too much into it.

But hey, I guess we uneducated peons are lucky to have such an analytical mind to tell us all about Medaka Box and how we are oh-so-ignorant to it's true form. I mean, if not, we'd still think the ending of the previous arc was one of the worst segments of the manga.

I mean, damn. Seeing through the blatently false ending of the True Flask Plan Arc? The one where the manga and a few chapters after clearly indicated a change of the status quo for the best?

Powerful stuff, friend.

And even then, it's just our subjective opinions. They won't change because someone else has a different reading. Even if you might be reading too much into the manga, or as you put me, reading too little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
That is called "character development", dude. One of the most important points of a story. Medaka was a crappy, retarded MC at the start, then Nishio deconstructed her to make her into a human, likeable character.
You're kidding me, right?

I mean, you actually think Medaka is anywhere near likeable right now?

Geez. She's as soul-crushingly boring as ever. A very large part of why Nishio's inconsistancy sucks so much, and why people have a problem with it.

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-09-27 at 20:17.
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Old 2012-09-27, 20:49   Link #10694
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
And for Iihiko to appear during their interrogation of Shiranui seemed a bit too coincidental to match.
Well, in this case, it's partially because Obi specifically goes and gets Iihiko.
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Old 2012-09-27, 21:34   Link #10695
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
He's implying he's permanently killing of Aijimu and all charactsers are now permanent cripples. Either the manga ends really soon, takes a dramatic turn or most likely this all is reversed contradicting what was previously said in usual bad writing style. Which do you thing is the most likely?
Probably the latter, yeah.
What I would like to happen is for the less important characters to all go on a big quest to find the Dragonballs MacGuffin that can heal everyone somehow, but that probably won't be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
'm not buying any of this emotion Shiranui is displaying to us. She's supposed to be playing a role of some kind, presumably one that surprised even her and it came from ol' mastermind Kajiki himself.
I never considered this since I figured she only took on the role when she left the village, but... huh. That's interesting.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Did you even read what I wrote? Medaka didn't omit the three characters from her speech. She specifically said them in her first word for the shiritori game.
You must either be unintelligent or deliberately obtuse.
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:04   Link #10696
RapidPotential
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...And just when you think the Not Equals were the icing, suddenly a definite destroyer comes out. Anything he destroys never heals huh? Now I'm seriously thinking Nisio's gonna come up with someone who can heal anything whatsoever.
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:11   Link #10697
Wolfenstein
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Perhaps Iihiko is just a pawn in Kajiki's plan. Maybe he's trying to stimulate Medaka to do something?

I mean, he's the one who removed Shiranui, purposefully because he said he had something prepared for Medaka. He gave Shiranui yet another part, as well. Under that focus, recent events can be seen under a whole new light. I'd absolutely love it if all the emotion Shiranui is displaying for Hakoniwa is absolutely bogus. Then we could have the Shiranui that's actually awesome, the little black-hearted minus.

Of course, she still wet a double in the face because he bad-mouthed Zenkichi, so her aspect of not giving a shit about anyone but Zenkichi still seems to be part of her real self.
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:14   Link #10698
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
So, you're still telling us that we're completely delusional for believing what the manga was leading us to believe, while at the same time calling us ignorant for our un-enlightened opinions on the manga, because you're analysing it so deeply, and are so into yourself, you can't see all you're doing is probably filling in blank space with your own thoughts, instead of recognizing Nishio's blatent inconsistancy with the end of the Jet-Black Bride arc?

But hey, I guess we uneducated peons are lucky to have such an analytical mind to tell us all about Medaka Box and how we are oh-so-ignorant to it's true form. I mean, if not, we'd still think the ending of the previous arc was one of the worst segments of the manga.

Don't get me wrong, you seem like a bright fellow. But maybe that's why you're reading too much into it.

I mean, damn. Seeing through the blatently false ending of the True Flask Plan Arc? The one where the manga and a few chapters after clearly indicated a change of the status quo for the best?

Powerful stuff, friend.

And even then, it's just our subjective opinions. They won't change because someone else has a different reading. Even if you might be reading too much into the manga, or as you put me, reading too little.
Yes, it is delusional to be disappointed when the things that the villain says or do fail. That has nothing to do with analyzing the story, just with pragmatically realizing how these stories work. Why would you believe Ajimu's words like "MC of my new world" would have any relevancy after her arc was over? It is not Ajimu who's leading the storyline/plot development of the manga (anymore). Once again, it is Medaka.

However, you're entirely ignoring the fact that I've never really been criticizing you personally. Like I said, a large part of the entire western readership of this series appears to be under the same inclinations. And as a result of not really being connected or aware of the Japanese community and just being insulated in your little societies with limited information, you end up convincing each other of ideas which aren't true. Rather than following the true majority represented by the audience over in Japan, you end up getting sucked into the majority over here. Seemingly reasonable beliefs and assertions based on limited information get passed around as if they're true, and people develop their own mental models of reality based on incorrect perceptions of a source several layers removed.

The point is, even if you're entitled to subjective opinions, recognize them for what they are. In particular, recognize that your assumptions and perceptions could be incorrect and entirely different from those better placed towards the source. I have in no case made the assertion that people should just take my own observations at face value. I don't generally read the manga in Japanese, I don't have access to supplementary materials like light novels or audio CDs, I don't browse Japanese imageboards. All my perceptions provide are a hint, a possibility I myself somehow confirmed. What is actually important for people to do is to try to look at the original material themselves before they ever decide something for sure. And also to respect people like original Japanese readers, who can provide direct/objective data and probably know a lot more. There is nothing wrong with ignorance, but it is active, wilful ignorance, which does not make any attempt at verifying itself or obtaining justification, which hurts most.


Quote:
You're kidding me, right?

I mean, you actually think Medaka is anywhere near likeable right now?

Geez. She's as soul-crushingly boring as ever. A very large part of why Nishio's inconsistancy sucks so much, and why people have a problem with it.
It is particularly statements like these which show the extent of your lack of awareness of reality. There have always been plenty of people who have actually liked Medaka, thought she was fine. Particularly in Japan there has been nowhere near the backlash against her as a Main Character. Note that the periods of time focusing on Zenkichi instead throughout the Not Equals/Black Wedding arcs, focusing on him as a main character, had the lowest magazine ranks during their arcs. If you were aware at all of the atmospheres of beliefs about Medaka in places outside your own isolated community, you would not be surprised at all.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:18   Link #10699
Kaisos Erranon
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How in the hell are the opinions of the Japanese fandom more valid than ours? We are reading the same manga. Just because it is translated does not mean that it suddenly becomes a completely different work removed from all context of the original.
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:39   Link #10700
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You must either be unintelligent or deliberately obtuse.
You are still missing tons of details obviously because you can't even be arsed to read a simple paragraph. Do you not even realize how getting a bunch of people not to say the specific sequence "usan" is not even a feat at all? There are thousands of words in the Japanese phonetic vocabulary, 69 or something basic sounds, the avoidance of words containing the sequence "usan" could be easily accomplished through endless synonyms. Medaka needing to do something special to make people not say "usan" might not have even been necessary at all, there is a huge chance that something like that would have happened even completely randomly. The only actual thing Medaka needed to control was the use of the individual syllables "u", "sa", and "n" in Momo's shiritori words. The first thing Medaka did in order to simplify that task was to get rid of the other two suitors between Momo and her through her stalling trick. Subsequently after that, Medaka psychologically analyzed Momo's likely sequence of words by giving her a specific goal/sequence to aim for: ending her last word with "n". When you know someone's goal, have confidence in their skill, and can calculate the optimal route someone would take to accomplish it, predicting their actions is a matter of simplicity. As a result of the numerous manipulations Medaka made, she cornered Momo into saying "kousan".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
How in the hell are the opinions of the Japanese fandom more valid than ours? We are reading the same manga. Just because it is translated does not mean that it suddenly becomes a completely different work removed from all context of the original.
Stuff like the above. Complaints about "plotholes" in the storyline pretty much invariably come because of western readers' inability to grasp the complex plot implications of the provided dialogue. You lose things because the translators can't read the future and predict which nuances/implications are actually important (see Ajimu initially being translated as someone who was Zenkichi's "girlfriend", for example), you lose things due to the nature of Japanese itself (the multiple readings of kanji, and the existence of furigana to completely overwrite the pronunciation of written words and occasionally give them a whole separate meaning). Also just laziness and a lack of going over previous chapters for close reading afterwards, without which even the Japanese would not be able to fully understand the story. All in all, I estimate that most English readers aren't catching more than 60% of the nuance of the dialogue on average. And it is probably not even possible to do significantly better.

The point is, when you're reading translations of Medaka Box in particular, and Nishio Ishin in general, you should assume you aren't getting the full story. That's something you have to live with, and which you have to adjust your judgements to take into account accordingly.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-27 at 23:08.
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