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Old 2012-09-27, 22:56   Link #10701
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Stuff like the above. Complaints about "plotholes" in the storyline pretty much invariably come because of western readers' inability to grasp the complex plot implications of the provided dialogue.
Yeah, we're done here.

You're basically just saying the opinion of the international community is inferior to the Japanese one, who you just happen to agree with, so they are probably more knowledgeable/can understand the manga better, hence you are calling our segment delusional because we were lead to believe something the manga outright showcased, and saying the Japanese know better because you assume they read/are reading the manga the same way and for the same reason you are.

That's a ridiculous defense, as stated before. Your opinion that the plot-holes aren't there is no different or more substantiated from mine which states that they are. It's pointless trying to argue any further.
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Old 2012-09-27, 22:58   Link #10702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Perhaps Iihiko is just a pawn in Kajiki's plan. Maybe he's trying to stimulate Medaka to do something?.
Something like this yeah, he's probably part of a bigger thing, it just seems like we're focusing him as part of the immediate threat and assuming his purpose right now is only to challenge them directly since he's kicking all sorts of ass, however things are moving really quickly now to be reaching any kind of conclusion yet, no?
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:01   Link #10703
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Something like this yeah, he's probably part of a bigger thing, it just seems like we're focusing him as part of the immediate threat and assuming his purpose right now is only to challenge them directly since he's kicking all sorts of ass, however things are moving really quickly now to be reaching any kind of conclusion yet, no?
Well, this entire arc was like a lightning strike at close distance for me, so yea. Things are moving way too quickly.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:04   Link #10704
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Yeah, we're done here.

You're basically just saying the opinion of the international community is inferior to the Japanese one, who you just happen to agree with, so they are probably more knowledgeable/can understand the manga better, hence you are calling our segment delusional because we were lead to believe something the manga outright showcased, and saying the Japanese know better because you assume they read/are reading the manga the same way and for the same reason you are.

That's a ridiculous defense, as stated before. Your opinion that the plot-holes aren't there is no different or more substantiated from mine which states that they are. It's pointless trying to argue any further.
lol, no. I don't assume the Japanese are right because they agree with me. I assume the Japanese are more correct because there are tons of blatant, obvious reasons for that to be true, and I modify my own beliefs and understanding to agree with them on the basis of that evidence, whenever available.

Do you honestly believe you have the same level of understanding of the story as the Japanese? Do you honestly believe that there are no obstacles or deficiencies which could prevent you from interacting with the text on the same level as a speaker of the original language? If you say yes, I will tell you that that is the definition of delusion, my friend.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:11   Link #10705
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You are still missing tons of details obviously because you can't even be arsed to read a simple paragraph. Do you not even realize how getting a bunch of people not to say the specific sequence "usan" is not even a feat at all? There are thousands of words in the Japanese phonetic vocabulary, 69 or something basic sounds, the avoidance of words containing the sequence "usan" could be easily accomplished through endless synonyms.
You have astoundingly poor reading comprehension and haven't even looked at the raws; it wasn't the specific sequence "usan", it was any use, at all, of the syllables う, さ, and ん.
Someone I know even went through the raws to confirm this, and that is indeed what she managed to do; Medaka somehow forced everyone into speaking a version of Japanese where those syllables did not exist. That's why it's so ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Complaints about "plotholes" in the storyline pretty much invariably come because of western readers' inability to grasp the complex plot implications of the provided dialogue... ...Also just laziness and a lack of going over previous chapters for close reading afterwards, without which even the Japanese would not be able to fully understand the story. All in all, I estimate that the most English reader isn't catching more than 60% of the nuance of the dialogue on average. And it is probably not even possible to do significantly better.
This is bullshit: translation or not, "subtle nuances" or not, the story is the same, and I do go over old chapters; it's where I get half my ideas about the manga's direction from.
The issue is that MB is simply not predictable.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The point is, when you're reading translations of Medaka Box in particular, and Nishio Ishin in general, you should assume you aren't getting the full story. That's something you have to live with, and which you have to adjust your judgements to take into account accordingly.
I've read translations of several of his other works, understand their full story, and think most of them are excellent; Medaka Box has recently been considerably less than excellent.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, no. I don't assume the Japanese are right because they agree with me. I assume the Japanese are more correct because there are tons of blatant, obvious reasons for that to be true, and I modify my own beliefs and understanding to agree with them on the basis of that evidence, whenever available.
This is still blatant 日本 worship and you're a fool for modifying your opinions to conform with theirs out of some misguided belief that they have a greater understanding of what is, on the whole, a relatively straightforward manga.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:16   Link #10706
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I don't know if you're purposefully being dense, but you've already been anwsered this question, so I'll reply to you one last time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
How in the hell are the opinions of the Japanese fandom more valid than ours? We are reading the same manga. Just because it is translated does not mean that it suddenly becomes a completely different work removed from all context of the original.
And your counter is that there are riddling, complex, hard to grasp nuances in the japanese text that we cannot possibly grasp due to translation, which leads to the japanese readers having this completely different view of the manga? And you actively modify your opinion to fit what you think their opinion is, even though you cannot possibly have a clue of what it truly is? Hence in the end, just using that as a validation for your own interpretation?

And...you think that's the best thing since sliced bread?

That's a...nice opinion you have there. Good thing you're here to enlighten us on all those complex nuances.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:24   Link #10707
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I'd like to point out that I don't have a flying fucking idea of what is going in this manga and I haven't for a while, but the entire time I'm reading it there's an air of stuffy and superiority that always bothers me. I don't even know if saying things will be 'predictably unpredictable' even sounds right but that's what I feel like.

I just want some normal shit to happen, god damn.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:29   Link #10708
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Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
I just want some normal shit to happen, god damn.
You and me both. Never thought I'd say it but I want another Suggestion Box arc.
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:31   Link #10709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You and me both. Never thought I'd say it but I want another Suggestion Box arc.
Maybe Iihiko's strongest weapon will be the suggestion box?
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Old 2012-09-27, 23:51   Link #10710
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You have astoundingly poor reading comprehension and haven't even looked at the raws; it wasn't the specific sequence "usan", it was any use, at all, of the syllables う, さ, and ん.
Someone I know even went through the raws to confirm this, and that is indeed what she managed to do; Medaka somehow forced everyone into speaking a version of Japanese where those syllables did not exist. That's why it's so ridiculous.
You are the one who hasn't looked over the raws. I bet your "friend" is some random poster from 4chan. As just a single example, on page 16 of ch. 156 Emukae refers to Medaka as "Medaka-san", using even two of those syllables together at once. If you considered anything at all about the commonality of use of three out of only 46 total syllables you'd know that it'd be impossible for the three not to be used individually at all.

Quote:
This is bullshit: translation or not, "subtle nuances" or not, the story is the same, and I do go over old chapters; it's where I get half my ideas about the manga's direction from.
The issue is that MB is simply not predictable.
Predictability is the exact opposite of a problem when going over old chapters. You think you have a plot hole now, but wait an arc or two to come back to read the manga again, and you'll have noticed that Nishio snuck in an explanation.

Quote:
I've read translations of several of his other works, understand their full story, and think most of them are excellent; Medaka Box has recently been considerably less than excellent.

This is still blatant 日本 worship and you're a fool for modifying your opinions to conform with theirs out of some misguided belief that they have a greater understanding of what is, on the whole, a relatively straightforward manga.
Your readings of Nishio's other works involved catching less than 60% of the nuances as well. Especially given the lack of visuals to aid understanding, in plain English, it is simply mechanically impossible to transfer the scope of Japanese wordplay.

Also, lol, yes, Medaka Box is totally a straightforward manga . Not that the general gist of the plot is usually difficult to follow, but this is fucking Nishio we're talking about, dude. Tell me you think you completely understood the operation of all of the dozens of made-up games and wordplay abilities Nishio threw into the manga. Alternatively tell me if you can give a concise, well-defined summary of the differences between Normals, Specials, Abnormals, Not Equals, Pluses, Minuses, Skills, Minus Skills, and Styles. You'd think all of this stuff is simple, but apparently there is tons of variation in readers' understanding of these concepts across the western fanbase.
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Old 2012-09-28, 00:33   Link #10711
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As just a single example, on page 16 of ch. 156 Emukae refers to Medaka as "Medaka-san", using even two of those syllables together at once.
Except that this isn't true; Emukae refers to Medaka as あの人.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you considered anything at all about the commonality of use of three out of only 46 total syllables you'd know that it'd be impossible for the three not to be used individually at all.
It's possible and was done, which is why Nisio is such a masterful writer and why it was so completely ridiculous for Medaka to be capable of manipulating the conversations like that, which, of course, was my point to begin with.
Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand the manga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Predictability is the exact opposite of a problem when going over old chapters. You think you have a plot hole now, but wait an arc or two to come back to read the manga again, and you'll have noticed that Nishio snuck in an explanation.
I said nothing about plot holes, I'm talking about how the immediate events of each arc are nearly impossible to predict even given examination of prior chapters (who on Earth considered Oudo of all people showing up to save the day?), although the final outcome (Medaka winning) is always a given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Your readings of Nishio's other works involved catching less than 60% of the nuances as well. Especially given the lack of visuals to aid understanding, in plain English, it is simply mechanically impossible to transfer the scope of Japanese wordplay.
Where in the goddamn hell do you get off, countering a person's claim that they understood something by informing them that no, they didn't, because Japanese is a brilliant and amazing language that surpasses English in every single way? You must see how stupid that is.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Tell me you think you completely understood the operation of all of the dozens of made-up games and wordplay abilities Nishio threw into the manga.
I do, because all of these things are explained quite well, (or are left untranslated). The games especially, since the first chapter in which they are introduced usually involves going over them in entirely too much detail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Alternatively tell me if you can give a concise, well-defined summary of the differences between Normals, Specials, Abnormals, Not Equals, Pluses, Minuses, Skills, Minus Skills, and Styles. You'd think all of this stuff is simple, but apparently there is tons of variation in readers' understanding of these concepts across the western fanbase.
There's tons of variation in understanding in the Eastern fanbase too, and guess why? Because few those terms are very clearly and explicitly explained or defined. Being able to speak Japanese does not suddenly grant you understanding of poorly-defined concepts.
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:02   Link #10712
Master Chibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Alternatively tell me if you can give a concise, well-defined summary of the differences between Normals, Specials, Abnormals, Not Equals, Pluses, Minuses, Skills, Minus Skills, and Styles.
http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/
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Old 2012-09-28, 01:59   Link #10713
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So guys, if you're telling that Shiranui is up to something then you should also consider that Kumagawa's inability to erase the memories of Medaka and Zenkichi was also part of a plan? So Kumagawa lied to them because he's up to something too, right? I mean he said that they didn't forget about Shiranui because "her feelings are still at Hakoniwa Academy".
Or her feelings are real after all and all these events weren't part of some sort of plan.
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Old 2012-09-28, 03:05   Link #10714
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Except that this isn't true; Emukae refers to Medaka as あの人.
Haha. Welp, looks like dead raw links screwed me over this time. Only found complete jump magazine issues, which were taking a while to download.

Quote:
It's possible and was done, which is why Nisio is such a masterful writer and why it was so completely ridiculous for Medaka to be capable of manipulating the conversations like that, which, of course, was my point to begin with.
Seems like you're the one who doesn't understand the manga.
Taking the confirmation of Medaka manipulating people's words (but not their thoughts) to exclude the syllables "u", "sa", and "n" as a given now, we should actually be taking the logic-defying nature of this as foreshadowing. In any case, Medaka is also a person who did things like causing an opposing team to gain negative points in basketball, so we've been long past the point of plausibility having any influence on Medaka's abilities for a while now. Rather, I'd say the revelation of Medaka being able to do completely overpowered not-even-conceivably-human feats like this, seemingly without even any skills involved, actually indicates that her unlocked abilities are rising into the same realm of things as Iihiko.

Previously I was not really expecting Medaka to stand a chance against Iihiko without (for example) somehow getting ridiculously beaten up to the point of being forced to expose her darkness inside. However, at this rate it looks like Medaka's growth after she threw off her limiters from her old personality has actually already reached the point that she is practically bending reality in the same way as Iihiko. This is suggesting that Medaka's base abilities might end up legitimately reaching Iihiko-levels of brokenness in the near future. The impending possibility of such a scenario puts even more pressure on the object of the story's recent focus, Medaka's interpersonal and emotional growth as a human.

Quote:
I said nothing about plot holes, I'm talking about how the immediate events of each arc are nearly impossible to predict even given examination of prior chapters (who on Earth considered Oudo of all people showing up to save the day?), although the final outcome (Medaka winning) is always a given.
Why does predicting the immediate events of each arc matter? Why are unexpected things something to get upset about? So long as the story maintains internal consistency over the long term, like even the Iihiko and Medaka's speech manipulation twists look to be doing lately, then that is fine, isn't it?

If you don't understand the reasoning for a plot twist now, go back and read the chapters again sometime later. Your explanation will turn up eventually. The only important point in the present that you should care about is that the story remains entertaining.

Quote:
Where in the goddamn hell do you get off, countering a person's claim that they understood something by informing them that no, they didn't, because Japanese is a brilliant and amazing language that surpasses English in every single way? You must see how stupid that is.
It is not about Japanese being a language which "surpasses" English, it is simply structurally different. When a writer like Nishio decides to push those structural features to their fullest for the sake of things like word play then it is impossible to translate fully into another language.

The point besides is that any continuing/multiple-volume story is gonna feature throwbacks/connections to events earlier in a series, and future happenings can cause you to look at earlier events in an entirely new light. So given that none of Nishio's series have remotely been completely translated yet, it is obviously impossible for you to have captured all of the meaning of a story. The same thing applies to ongoing chapters of Medaka Box. The things you claim are "inconsistent" or "don't make sense" are small, incomplete parts of a bigger picture.

Quote:
I do, because all of these things are explained quite well, (or are left untranslated). The games especially, since the first chapter in which they are introduced usually involves going over them in entirely too much detail.

There's tons of variation in understanding in the Eastern fanbase too, and guess why? Because few those terms are very clearly and explicitly explained or defined. Being able to speak Japanese does not suddenly grant you understanding of poorly-defined concepts.
Are you actually certain that those terms are poorly-defined in the Eastern fanbase? The only term which has yet to be given an explicit definition thus far is the Not Equal, but things like Plus and Minus (and their associated skill categories) have been sufficiently explained. It's not that the explanations were "lacking", it's that they were spread in a convoluted manner over multiple arcs.


Regardless, my earlier points about the Japanese fanbase have not even particularly been about the language. It's actually about the nature of the fanbases themselves. Over here in English-speaking land, a circlejerk has developed over hating Medaka, and people legitimately believing there is/was a chance for Zenkichi to be the "real" main character. The progression of this circlejerk is fed by limited direct contact to the actual situation and reception of the manga in Japan, leading to expectations for the story which are detached from reality. For reasons including the lack of widespread availability of Nishio's works in English, these false expectations are further exasperated by the western fandom's general lack of understanding of what to expect from this author. This leads to disappointed followers, and a generally angry and disrespectful readerbase.

The purpose of saying "defer to the Japanese fanbase" is that they are the people whose opinions actually matter, and whose support upon which the continuation of the manga actually depends. Not to mention, although this may not particularly apply to the most visible segment of Medaka's japanese fandom (the Jump readers)--Medaka Box's audience in Japan are much more likely to be thoroughly familiar with the style of works from Nishio, leading to more accurate evaluations in terms of what to expect. This is particularly true for the Medaka Box fandom on 2ch, who are not only active enough to support regular weekly spoilers earlier than even the big 3 Jump series, but are also much more organized and successful in serious efforts like decoding the various riddles Nishio throws out. Further advantages the Japanese fandom has over us include access to supplementary material like audio drama cds or the light novels. All in all, it can be said that the western fandom faces severe disadvantages in terms of resources for the sake of being able to predict/understand Medaka Box as a whole, and that it should be expected that the Japanese fanbase have a much more complete picture of the intent and story. That's why, although Jump rankings should probably be considered less representative than volume sales in terms of Medaka Box's popularity and reception in Japan, it is utterly ridiculous to dismiss reactions from that audience like the western view has any greater meaning at all.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-28 at 03:23.
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Old 2012-09-28, 08:20   Link #10715
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Originally Posted by Iby View Post
So guys, if you're telling that Shiranui is up to something then you should also consider that Kumagawa's inability to erase the memories of Medaka and Zenkichi was also part of a plan? So Kumagawa lied to them because he's up to something too, right? I mean he said that they didn't forget about Shiranui because "her feelings are still at Hakoniwa Academy".
Or her feelings are real after all and all these events weren't part of some sort of plan.
If this is all just one big conspiracy for one reason or another, I'm so in!!
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Old 2012-09-28, 08:23   Link #10716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iby View Post
So guys, if you're telling that Shiranui is up to something then you should also consider that Kumagawa's inability to erase the memories of Medaka and Zenkichi was also part of a plan? So Kumagawa lied to them because he's up to something too, right? I mean he said that they didn't forget about Shiranui because "her feelings are still at Hakoniwa Academy".
Or her feelings are real after all and all these events weren't part of some sort of plan.
Well assuming this plan does involve Medaka and such, they would need to mask a way to bring them there right? So if this is the case, then it was probably taken into account.
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Old 2012-09-28, 09:37   Link #10717
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wonder who'd win in a fight

Iihiko or Akune
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:03   Link #10718
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Well I was somewhat surprised...looks like Medaka doesn't just curbstomp Ihiko. But of all characters, why Oudo to save the day? I mean, he does still have something of an amicable relationship with Medaka, but what?!!

At the same time, I like that they're trying to keep certain characters relevant. Now if we could get those kendo delinquents...

Why a matchup between Ihiko and Akune?
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Old 2012-09-28, 10:04   Link #10719
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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
wonder who'd win in a fight

Iihiko or Akune
Well its up to Nishio as power levels, logic or even common sense gets thrown out the window in Medaka Box.
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Old 2012-09-28, 13:18   Link #10720
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Well assuming this plan does involve Medaka and such, they would need to mask a way to bring them there right? So if this is the case, then it was probably taken into account.
Imo, Medaka remembering was, of course, part of the plan.

But to me, I'd guess that Zenkichi wasn't a variable that was factored in, as he probably remembers Shiranui because, well, they're best friends and she loves him and all.

I'd guess that's going to play a bigger part when this plot gets unveiled, if it's even there.
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