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Old 2012-11-01, 13:10   Link #11001
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mura View Post
I guess in Zen's case, if you've been around a person for that long then you don't need a reason to love that person. She did respond to his character change though when his ideology beat her in the election and thus resulting in that kiss.
That's unconditional love for you, I guess.

I find that, personally, to be quite a shame though.

If Zenkichi's love weren't so unconditional and detached from the human condition, he'd probably be upgraded from my second favorite to my favorite character, over even Kumagawa.

That's really the one aspect of his character that I think drags down some of his greatness. I really wish his love had turned into something more human after chapter 140. Even so because Zenkichi's character is supposed to be the one closest to the human condition in this narrative. That's the whole point of Devil Style, a neutral(Zero) skill. Seems rather self-contradicting.

Though, if it had, he probably would've been doubting his feelings for Medaka after the JBWF, and would've never stated something like he did to Emukae.

~~~~

Exactly! That's just the thing! I thought that was great!

The problem is the manga afterwards, surprisingly enough, dosen't reflect 140's ending at all. I know me and a few others probably have already said this here, but that current quip in the chapter just serves to illustrate.

~~~~

Lol, forgive my ramblings. I kinda like going on off-topic tangents.
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:20   Link #11002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post

That's really the one aspect of his character that I think drags down some of his greatness. I really wish his love had turned into something more human after chapter 140. Even so because Zenkichi's character is supposed to be the one closest to the human condition in this narrative. That's the whole point of Devil Style, a neutral(Zero) skill. Seems rather self-contradicting.

Though, if it had, he probably would've been doubting his feelings for Medaka after the JBWF, and would've never stated something like he did to Emukae.
Don't worry, we all have some of those sentiments. But for you, what defines Zenkichi?
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:22   Link #11003
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My hype after this chapter is above 9000.

I still remember when some people said we wouldn't be seeing the suitors again. O-ho.
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:23   Link #11004
Mura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
That's unconditional love for you, I guess.

I find that, personally, to be quite a shame though.

If Zenkichi's love weren't so unconditional and detached from the human condition, he'd probably be upgraded from my second favorite to my favorite character, over even Kumagawa.

That's really the one aspect of his character that I think drags down some of his greatness. I really wish his love had turned into something more human after chapter 140. Even so because Zenkichi's character is supposed to be the one closest to the human condition in this narrative. That's the whole point of Devil Style, a neutral(Zero) skill. Seems rather self-contradicting.

Though, if it had, he probably would've been doubting his feelings for Medaka after the JBWF, and would've never stated something like he did to Emukae.

~~~~

Exactly! That's just the thing! I thought that was great!

The problem is the manga afterwards, surprisingly enough, dosen't reflect 140's ending at all. I know me and a few others probably have already said this here, but that current quip in the chapter just serves to illustrate.

~~~~

Lol, forgive my ramblings. I kinda like going on off-topic tangents.
Your rants are entertaining so there is no need to apologize.

Well just to tell you where I stand, I'm a Medaka supporter(perhaps the only one in the entire world.) and my favorite character.
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:26   Link #11005
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Originally Posted by Mura View Post
Your rants are entertaining so there is no need to apologize.

Well just to tell you where I stand, I'm a Medaka supporter(perhaps the only one in the entire world.) and my favorite character.
Not my favorite character, but the first line is so wrong
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:27   Link #11006
Mura
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Not my favorite character, but the first line is so wrong
I was hopeful at the least, the scale I measured may have been too grand.
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Old 2012-11-01, 13:47   Link #11007
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
But it's not much of a surprise. Zenkichi has a trend of being mistreated.
I can clearly see what you're trying to point at.

You know, if it hadn't been done already, you'd think this trend would lead to another "Zenkichi Insurrection".

Obviously not gonna happen, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Medaka may have learned to "understand people's hearts", but that doesn't automatically make her less callous it seems. The character development is a bit more subtle; before Zenkichi would've probably taken it to heart, but now he can laugh it off. Medaka doesn't really need to act overly violently. But both still retain certain key defining characteristics(stubborn determination, skepticism, sincerity)
That's just the thing.

It seems the manga took 140's character development and completely disregarded it in favor of a certain type of status-quo. Because, if 140's spirit(at least, how I'm interpreting it) were continued, certain events(quips about Zenkichi's intelligence, Medaka's misunderstand of people's feelings, her way of cheering up Zenkichi) wouldn't be had at all.

I feankly just feel like 140's development was completely left in the dust, man.

Zenkichi fought through tooth and nail as to never have Medaka like that again, and yet it seems like she still is...and dosen't care much for his feelings.

Maybe it's just a character regression from Zen's part, though. Maybe from both of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Also, Zenkichi has the role as the audience surrogate, meaning he does have to get saddled with the role of asking questions we would potentially ask.
That's really not a problem. Medaka's reaction to the question is a problem on her front. It tells me she dosen't seem to recognize Zen's struggle to develop at all.

I mean, let's be blunt here - Emukae noticed it in spades. It's also true that Medaka did acknowledge it at the end of 140, but you already know how I feel about that.

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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
But for you, what defines Zenkichi?
That's actually a pretty hard question for me to anwser. Mostly because I just write whatever I'm feeling at the moment. I really don't put any thought into analysing and quantifying a character in a more ordained fashion, but I'll try my best!

He's kind, compassionate and sincere to a fault.

I'd say that he's a normal guy, who through his own decision, acheived a state where reality is constructed by someone's own effort and will, instead of a whim of fate. He did that in-order to defeat the girl he loved so his victory would not only feel real to himself, but that so his girl would finally acknowledge him. After years of standing behind her, he wanted to stand besides her, he wanted to stand in a world like that.

I thought that was the full intent on his personal skill, and what had become the crux of his character. Making a reality that is actually real. One of your own making. That's what he meant when he said that his feeling when defeating Medaka felt real. It's as if what he had done before was just pre-ordained. Pre-ordered.

This, I think, reflects somewhat with his current feelings of his friendship with Shiranui. And if you've been reading my posts, you'd see that's being very redeeming of the current arc for me.

In certain ways, he's the most human character in this series, feeling the urge of free-will and the urge of needing effort to construct your own world instead of by fate or some miracle. Like Anshin' san said, it's the complete opposite from the conventional main character.

At least, that was what I thought his character was about when I read the Flask Plan Arc, which was Zenkichi focused. Now I'm not so sure. Since it seems that legacy is almost non-existant when it should kinda be the basis for the current Zen/Medaka relationship instead of this really potent and unbendable love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mura
Your rants are entertaining so there is no need to apologize.
Cool! I'm very glad someone so different from myself can take something out of them.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-11-01 at 14:43.
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Old 2012-11-01, 15:36   Link #11008
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans.
Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that?

The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course.
This was the quote that I was looking for.
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Old 2012-11-01, 17:52   Link #11009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
It seems the manga took 140's character development and completely disregarded it in favor of a certain type of status-quo. Because, if 140's spirit(at least, how I'm interpreting it) were continued, certain events(quips about Zenkichi's intelligence, Medaka's misunderstand of people's feelings, her way of cheering up Zenkichi) wouldn't be had at all.

I feankly just feel like 140's development was completely left in the dust, man.

Zenkichi fought through tooth and nail as to never have Medaka like that again, and yet it seems like she still is...and dosen't care much for his feelings.
That's really not what he was fighting for at all. Heck, he even admits in the middle of that arc that it was entirely his fault for overreacting to her. That's when his character developed to the point where he can laugh off such comments. The fact that he continued to challenge her anyway, despite being the one who was "wrong" was the ultimate point of the arc.
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Old 2012-11-01, 18:13   Link #11010
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I don't quite see where you're getting at, to be honest.

Zenkichi stated he wanted to debunk her subjectively flawed ideology(one he innocently put on her himself). He was, essentially, fighting to change Medaka. Because humans shouldn't be right all the time. Because Medaka needed to understand the feelings of others. Because he wanted her to acknowledge him(so that she would love him). That melds pretty well with the arc - just not the rest of the manga, because while Medaka changed, she hasn't really...changed. Although she obviously reciprocates his love now - the thing is: she seems to not have changed in any other way. She dosen't seem to acknowledge Zen's new self save in the love department, she dosen't seem to act any differently with him even after kissing him and accepting marriage, evidenced by the end of the JBW and the current chapter. That makes all the past arcs seem cheap, ya know? I hope I'm getting this across, as it's absolutely crucial to my reading of the manga.

This is probably the most stark demonstration of this point:

Spoiler:


This really makes me feel...used? I guess? I loved the True Flask Plan Arc, yet after Zenkichi fought to change Medaka she still hasn't changed(still a soul-crushingly boring character, but that's not relevant)!

But he wasn't fightning just for some spirit of self-assurance, either. He simply thought he should prove to her that she was wrong in his point of view, by winning! I don't think any other way would've actually made him heard.

But also, he thought it was about time he started living his own life. At least, according to Akune. His actions seem to reflect that somewhat.

However, the true point was that there was no "wrong" to begin with. That's the thing. No one was wrong, because the path you choose for yourself is the right one. Wrong and right are just subjective terms. Or something like that. Zenkichi stated something about choosing your own destiny and whatnot.
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-11-01 at 18:51.
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:19   Link #11011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I don't quite see where you're getting at, to be honest.

Zenkichi stated he wanted to debunk her subjectively flawed ideology(one he innocently put on her himself). He was, essentially, fighting to change Medaka. Because humans shouldn't be right all the time. Because Medaka needed to understand the feelings of others. Because he wanted her to acknowledge him(so that she would love him). That melds pretty well with the arc - just not the rest of the manga, because while Medaka changed, she hasn't really...changed. Although she obviously reciprocates his love now - the thing is: she seems to not have changed in any other way. She dosen't seem to acknowledge Zen's new self save in the love department, she dosen't seem to act any differently with him even after kissing him and accepting marriage, evidenced by the end of the JBW and the current chapter. That makes all the past arcs seem cheap, ya know? I hope I'm getting this across, as it's absolutely crucial to my reading of the manga.

This is probably the most stark demonstration of this point:

Spoiler:


This really makes me feel...used? I guess? I loved the True Flask Plan Arc, yet after Zenkichi fought to change Medaka she still hasn't changed(still a soul-crushingly boring character, but that's not relevant)!

But he wasn't fightning just for some spirit of self-assurance, either. He simply thought he should prove to her that she was wrong in his point of view, by winning! I don't think any other way would've actually made him heard.

But also, he thought it was about time he started living his own life. At least, according to Akune. His actions seem to reflect that somewhat.

However, the true point was that there was no "wrong" to begin with. That's the thing. No one was wrong, because the path you choose for yourself is the right one. Wrong and right are just subjective terms. Or something like that. Zenkichi stated something about choosing your own destiny and whatnot.
You should probably take the time to go over chapter 126 again. The point of Zenkichi's character development back in the Not Equals arc wasn't to change Medaka, it was realizing that he loved Medaka romantically (and thus wanted to defeat her/become a type of man who would make her fall for him). When Zenkichi chose to tell Medaka to find her own purpose for living rather than serving himself by saying "be my girlfriend", he was explicitly choosing/demonstrating that the Medaka he loved/wished to see was the one with her old personality.

In any case, there are countless twisted/unnatural/delusional aspects of Zen and Medaka's relationship, to the point that I would say that the establishment of a romantic relationship between them would put an active halt to their positive character development. It is flat out obvious how unappealing Medaka x Zenkichi is if anybody sat down and seriously thought about it. It's precisely on these grounds that I believe alternative possibilities presented in the series (i.e. for example Emukae x Zenkichi, Kumagawa x Medaka) have an actual chance of happening.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-11-01 at 19:59.
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:37   Link #11012
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Must point out: really not sure why you quoted Dawn Emperor's post...it dosen't have anything to do with what we're talkin' about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You should probably take the time to go over chapter 126 again. The point of Zenkichi's character development back in the Not Equals arc wasn't to change Medaka, it was realizing that he loved Medaka romantically (and thus wanted to defeat her/become a type of man who would make her fall for him). When Zenkichi chose to tell Medaka to find her own purpose for living rather than serving himself by saying "be my girlfriend", he was explicitly choosing/demonstrating that the Medaka he loved/wished to see was the one with her old personality.
EDIT!**

Actually, after re-reading what you said, I'm starting to think you might be right.

I guess I was over-compensating for my own suspension of disbelief by attributing certain traits when I mis-interpreted the text.

The truth is, I should probably just attribute Zen's unwillingness to view Medaka's negative traits in their relationship to his blind adoration of her and his genuine lack of taste when it comes to his romantic relationship, not narrative incoherrence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
In any case, there are countless twisted/unnatural/delusional aspects of Zen and Medaka's relationship, to the point that I would say that the establishment of a romantic relationship between them would put an active halt to their positive character development.
That's interesting. How so?

Although, I guess it's beyond unrealistic to assume a change in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It is flat out obvious how unappealing Medaka x Zenkichi is if anybody sat down and seriously thought about it.
I don't deny that. I've always hated love stories detached from the human eye. Plus, it's rather contradicting for Zen's character, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's precisely on these grounds that I believe alternative possibilities presented in the series (i.e. for example Emukae x Zenkichi, Kumagawa x Medaka) have an actual chance of happening.
Honestly, I just can't see things the same way.

Zenkichi x Medaka seems to be entrenched deep into this manga's soul by now.

But hey, if any of those alternatives happened, I'd gladly eat the above sentence with some fava beans.
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Old 2012-11-01, 20:40   Link #11013
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huh? I kinda really like ZenkichiXMedaka, it seems sweet.
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Old 2012-11-01, 20:43   Link #11014
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huh? I kinda really like ZenkichiXMedaka, it seems sweet.
Opinions!

Personally, ZenxEmukae is da bess.

Feels bad that it missed it's shot. Welp. What's fanfiction for, right?
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:14   Link #11015
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Must point out: really not sure why you quoted Dawn Emperor's post...it dosen't have anything to do with what we're talkin' about?
Hmm, that was a misquote, I guess. I didn't realize it was there. It's now fixed.

Quote:
EDIT!**
lol, okay, edited this as well. I just wanted to mention that yeah, when talking about Medaka's changes/character development after ch. 140 we need to separate out Medaka's character development in general, versus Medaka's relationship with Zenkichi. Furthermore, when talking about Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship, given that Zenkichi explicitly refrained from influencing Medaka in a way which would directly benefit his romantic chances with her, I think that Medaka's reciprocity is a pretty big change/development in itself.

Quote:
That's interesting. How so?
I think it can essentially be said that the core basis of both Medaka and Zenkichi's characterization thus far can be said to be optimism and idealism. Zenkichi provided the seed for the optimism; Medaka's universe-twisting Main Character abilities are what pushed/forced that optimism/idealism into (manga) reality. Furthermore, it is because Medaka forced/pushed idealism into reality that Zenkichi has been able to live while continually believing in such extreme optimism.

The point is that from a realistic/natural perspective, i.e. a perspective which would be meaningful for readers of the story, there are times when optimism/idealism is a good thing and there are times when it is misguided/mistaken/bad. Medaka and Zenkichi represent such an extreme form of optimism that there are tons of obvious times when it is delusional/bad.

Here are a couple of delusional ideas that Medaka/Zenkichi have believed in:
- that you can be born to help others/make others happy
- that one person can always be right
- that humans are fundamentally good
- that hard work/determination can accomplish anything
- that there are no such things as geniuses
- that the things important to you will still be there tomorrow
- that a person could always find a way to be next to you
- that you can love a person through death into a next life

This is just a number of notable examples. You will note that a number of the earlier ones were things Medaka or Zenkichi believed at the start of the series and which have since been debunked and discarded by their character growth over the course of the story. What I am really talking about is Medaka and Zenkichi's general attitude, which is a general inclination towards believing in idealistic delusions like that.

In the first paragraph I already outlined how Medaka and Zenkichi's characteristics reinforce each other in a way that causes them to maintain their delusions: Medaka falls in love with Zenkichi's optimistic idealism, and then Zenkichi falls in love with Medaka's twisted ability to force those idealistic things into reality (though he doesn't see it that way, of course :P). If that feedback loop and relationship becomes completely entrenched in their personalities, then neither Zenkichi nor Medaka will ever truly understand what it means to be human, to have empathy for others, or to face reality, because they will never be able to understand the negative side of humanity/reality.

Thus what I meant when I said their romance would crush any further meaningful character development.

..
I will note that I am not saying that idealism/optimism is (necessarily) bad, not at all. There are tons of times when it is a good thing; for example, when Medaka was able to 'save' Kumagawa. In fact, there is one central belief in Zenkichi and Medaka's optimism which I didn't include up there, because it is something which I also absolutely believe in and don't expect to ever see made 'delusional' in the manga: namely that "Life is a plus", which I think is a core theme of the story. However, the fundamental fact stands that optimism/idealism needs to be modulated by reality--an honest look at the world as it truly is. That realistic outlook is what Zenkichi and Medaka lack, and which they will never be able to obtain by being together. More importantly, that realistic outlook is precisely what is needed for both Medaka and Zenkichi to grow and become more well-liked/relatable as characters, and even represents the greatest part of their existing character growth already.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-11-01 at 21:36.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:30   Link #11016
DawnEmperor
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
That's really not what he was fighting for at all. Heck, he even admits in the middle of that arc that it was entirely his fault for overreacting to her. That's when his character developed to the point where he can laugh off such comments. The fact that he continued to challenge her anyway, despite being the one who was "wrong" was the ultimate point of the arc.
Was it entirely his fault, or was he just taking responsibility for the entire thing, regardless of either of their flaws?
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:52   Link #11017
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About the whole "Zenkichi realizing he loved the old Medaka" vs "Zenkichi wanting to prove Medaka wrong", do they have to be mutuall exclusive?
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Old 2012-11-02, 00:45   Link #11018
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Opinions!

Personally, ZenxEmukae is da bess.

Feels bad that it missed it's shot. Welp. What's fanfiction for, right?
Rubbish!

ZenxHitomi Hitoyoshi

This is what my Tyrant's Eye of Truth tells me!
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Old 2012-11-02, 01:02   Link #11019
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Rubbish!

ZenxHitomi Hitoyoshi

This is what my Tyrant's Eye of Truth tells me!
That is just wrong on so many levels...
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Old 2012-11-02, 01:23   Link #11020
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Anybody can make up demented pairings. Just like how I right this second made up the pairing of Medaka x male Medaka from another universe. They say you should be with someone who's deserving of you.
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