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Old 2012-12-11, 13:42   Link #11421
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
I think he loves her simply because they've been through so much together. What's more human than falling in love with somebody after sharing years of experiences? Even if that person isn't suited for you at first glance.
Because that's not human at all. Not even one single bit. These everlasting love types are something you only see happening all the time in Shounen Manga, real life is much more complicated than that. And Zenkichi is supposed to represent us, and he does a good job, except when it comes to his romantic relationships.

Nishio's even teasing us with Doctor Tsurubami, who is basically a Zenkichi who does take his relationships in a human fashion. And left his "love" because she was exactly like Medaka.

Meanwhile, Medaka's relationships to Zenkichi made them both conjure up some of the most fantasical shit you'd ever see someone talking. Like "I'll always be by your side", or "I'll love you beyond death". That's some de-facto cliche manga bullshit love story stuff.

And Zen's supposed to be normal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
And I don't think Zen is supposed to represent the normal human


You sure about that?

Just because he's a normal guy who reacts to monsters, dosen't mean he's become one. Far from the truth. That's the entire reason for a Zero:

"Zenkichi is right in that regard. He's not a Plus or a Minus; but a Zero."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
I think he's supposed to represent the effect an abnormal being like Medaka would have on a normal human after a long period of time. He's never been entirely normal, no regular person would study for years to learn to disarm any kind of weapon while they are a student. But that's the effect that being around Medaka for so long has had on him, he sees things differently than normal people even if he was born completely normal. Humans adapt, that's how we've survived for so long. Zen has done the same thing by adapting to Medaka
I really don't understand why you direct this paragraph at me when you're not contradicting me at all with it...

Yeah, all you said did make sense, but it dosen't mean that he suddenly stopped thinking like a normal human in everything simply because he thinks crazily about his relationship to Medaka. He never stopped being human. He's there to represent our reactions to all the Abnormal and Minus stuff, which showed greatly in the Flask Plan Arc, like you said, it's his thematic value, and one that shined when he gave his speech to the viewers at the election, when he created Devil Style and when he told Medaka to have some free-will of her own.

He dosen't see things differently than normal, Lol. He's just determined enough to act on his own unique viewpoints. Which aren't anywhere near abnormal ones.

But he is, admittedly, a loony when it comes to romantic relationships.

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Old 2012-12-11, 13:57   Link #11422
Clarste
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I don't think Zen's normal, at least not anymore. Even ignoring Medaka's influence and all that, the whole concept of "Zero" is hardly normal in the first place. While obviously no one in real life has either Medaka's abnormal luck or Kumagawa's negative fate, we also don't live our lives completely free of coincidence. Where we were born, who we meet, what happens to us outside our control... these are all very human things. Zen's desire to live a life completely free from outside influence, where everything he gets is exactly proportional to the effort he puts in... that's abnormal. That's an ideal just as far removed from reality as Medaka or Kumagawa. Plus, Minus, and Zero are all unrealistic extremes.

Honestly, I'd say Akune is the most "human" character, but he's not really important anymore. He's a guy with realistic talent who's heavily influenced by who he hangs out with. He thinks he knows what he wants, but what he wants changes over time. He has no tragic past that shaped him completely, he's just pulled along by life combined with his own actions.
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Old 2012-12-11, 14:13   Link #11423
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In essence, there'd be nothing more "human" than a Zero in Medaka Box. That's the whole point, that it's not a Plus, nor is it a Minus, it's something else. Someone who disperses the veil of the unreal manga world with somethign like Devil Style. An unsung hero of a main character that despises what the conventional main character stands for. Whole reason that Zenkichi gave-up on the privileges of being a main character was that he wouldn't become what he was trying to change. Recall the "he dosen't have anything" line? That's the point exactly! He dosen't have any special skills, talent or unworldly ability, he just has his unique mind-set and personality(which is why he's so weak)!

The desire to have a life constructed by your efforts rather than how it is in the world of Medaka Box(the whole manga stuff) is far from an abnormal desire. We all feel it. We all wonder about if we have any choices to make, if our fates aren't already pre-ordained, if we actually have free-will.

Think about it more carefully. Zenkichi basically took the fate-run universe of the manga and said that he wanted things to feel more real than fabricated in there. He didn't want to defeat Medaka due to luck or fate. How is that anything but the more human of emotions? To want your efforts to pay out?

Granted, the fact he did all that partly so his girl would notice(partly because he wanted to live his own life, which he has failed to do so far) him is beyond ridiculous, but we've already established that Zenkichi's relationship with Medaka is fantasical.

Also, you're confusing boring for normal. They aren't synonyms. And half of what you said happened to Zenkichi in a higher degree.

Re-read Zenkichi's actions during the election polling. Can you really say that anyone is more human than that in this manga? he doubts himself at the last second and is able to accurately read the hearts of his fellow students, knowing what they truly want. A result that would've been wrongly changed by fate if not for Devil Style. Thankfully, free-will shines out in the end!
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Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-12-11 at 14:28.
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Old 2012-12-11, 14:21   Link #11424
[HearT]
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Originally Posted by Sarun View Post
If the system is -7, it would be chapter 168 where Zenkichi and Kumogawa is revived. I believed one of the best moments in that chapter had Ajimu blasting away the Kumogawa's loser star in Kumogawa's mind. Can't believe that chapter of all chapter finished last.I even thought this would have escaped Bottom 5.
I think it was actually the chapter where Medaka visits her father that was ranked this week..
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Old 2012-12-11, 14:23   Link #11425
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Also, there's no way that introspective dream chapter would've ended last...
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Old 2012-12-11, 14:37   Link #11426
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I am more into -7 camp.

Regardless, the series didn't gain the boost it almost looked like it will get since Treasure Hunt arc or the anime season starts.
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Old 2012-12-11, 15:17   Link #11427
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For a long time, I have seriously believed that "normal" for human behavior and thoughts simply does not exist. And if it does exist, it is merely the most common type of behavior for humans, nothing more. Of course, when you're neurologically atypical, this type of thinking might be the default. As such, I get confused when two people argue about the "normalcy" and "humanity" of characters. Yes, confused is probably the best way to put it.
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Old 2012-12-11, 15:41   Link #11428
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
In essence, there'd be nothing more "human" than a Zero in Medaka Box. That's the whole point, that it's not a Plus, nor is it a Minus, it's something else. Someone who disperses the veil of the unreal manga world with somethign like Devil Style. An unsung hero of a main character that despises what the conventional main character stands for. Whole reason that Zenkichi gave-up on the privileges of being a main character was that he wouldn't become what he was trying to change. Recall the "he dosen't have anything" line? That's the point exactly! He dosen't have any special skills, talent or unworldly ability, he just has his unique mind-set and personality(which is why he's so weak)!

The desire to have a life constructed by your efforts rather than how it is in the world of Medaka Box(the whole manga stuff) is far from an abnormal desire. We all feel it. We all wonder about if we have any choices to make, if our fates aren't already pre-ordained, if we actually have free-will.

Think about it more carefully. Zenkichi basically took the fate-run universe of the manga and said that he wanted things to feel more real than fabricated in there. He didn't want to defeat Medaka due to luck or fate. How is that anything but the more human of emotions? To want your efforts to pay out?

Granted, the fact he did all that partly so his girl would notice(partly because he wanted to live his own life, which he has failed to do so far) him is beyond ridiculous, but we've already established that Zenkichi's relationship with Medaka is fantasical.

Also, you're confusing boring for normal. They aren't synonyms. And half of what you said happened to Zenkichi in a higher degree.

Re-read Zenkichi's actions during the election polling. Can you really say that anyone is more human than that in this manga? he doubts himself at the last second and is able to accurately read the hearts of his fellow students, knowing what they truly want. A result that would've been wrongly changed by fate if not for Devil Style. Thankfully, free-will shines out in the end!
You've never wanted to win the lottery? People want to be lucky. People want to be special. People almost always overestimate their odds of winning anything, because subconsciously we all think we're special. We all think "Life is a Plus" and if you don't then society judges you as deviant, or mentally ill (ie: suicidally depressed). The desire to throw away that subconscious "I'm special" attitude and lead a life without fortune is unusual. The only people who do that are people like Naze, who are so assured of their innate superiority that they think they can easily crawl back up from the bottom. In other words, only a ridiculous Plus would think like that, and Zen spent the entire series beforehand learning that he wasn't.

And you think having a moment of doubt before accurately reading the crowd is normal? Damn, you're Plus. So Plus you have no idea what Zero even looks like. Free will is absolutely not the solution to all problems, nor even most of them. Frankly, that's kind of the point of the series. You may note that basically all of Zenkichi's efforts always end in vain, except that one time he had Ajimu "overcome the impossible like it's nothing" Najimi on his side. Devil Style isn't an "I win" card, it's a "Medaka loses" card.
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Old 2012-12-11, 16:09   Link #11429
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Also, there's no way that introspective dream chapter would've ended last...
That one will be up between 5th and 10th position, calling it.
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Old 2012-12-11, 16:18   Link #11430
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
That one will be up between 5th and 10th position, calling it.
I had predicted that at 8th.

Though I had put both OP (Lead Color) and AC (Center Color) above it in actual ranking and Beelzebub (the other center color) above it in TOC and below it in actual votes (which we won't know).
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Old 2012-12-11, 16:19   Link #11431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Because that's not human at all. Not even one single bit. These everlasting love types are something you only see happening all the time in Shounen Manga, real life is much more complicated than that. And Zenkichi is supposed to represent us, and he does a good job, except when it comes to his romantic relationships.
You know, I'm always mystified when people say stuff like this. I personally know people who have known each other since childhood, started going out in high school, got married afterwards, and lived to a ripe old age together. Are they not human then?

If they're something I've learned over the years, it's that when it comes to interpersonal relationships, nothing is impossible. Unlikely, yes, impossible, no.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Medaka's relationships to Zenkichi made them both conjure up some of the most fantasical shit you'd ever see someone talking. Like "I'll always be by your side", or "I'll love you beyond death". That's some de-facto cliche manga bullshit love story stuff.

And Zen's supposed to be normal...
In a way, that's the most normal thing about Zenkichi. Men have been doing crazy things for women since the beginning of time.
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Old 2012-12-11, 16:23   Link #11432
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After much mentalization, I've figured out what your critical misunderstand is. Here it goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
You've never wanted to win the lottery? People want to be lucky. People want to be special. People almost always overestimate their odds of winning anything, because subconsciously we all think we're special. We all think "Life is a Plus" and if you don't then society judges you as deviant, or mentally ill (ie: suicidally depressed). The desire to throw away that subconscious "I'm special" attitude and lead a life without fortune is unusual.
Here's the crux of your misunderstanding.

It seems, to me, that you think Devil Style completely eliminates the concepts of chance and specialty.

That's completly incorrect. In-fact, Devil Style does the exact opposite. It brings to like the concepts of chance and being special, truly special for what you are.

Devil Style's only fuction is to create a world without the unatural(in this case, though, natural) favortism of fate.

Before-hand, in Medaka Box, Abnormals would always draw aces, they'd always get straight sixes in dies. That's you being lucky - that's you being favored over others. Except in Medaka Box, not everyone has equal chances at luck. Although, luck dosen't inherently exists(you make your own luck), it's just a byproduct of fate. How can your specialty, your true special human self, shine when you're the one losing simply because you were born under a bad star?

Devil Style is basically a skill that speaks of faith. Faith in people. Faith in their ability to not need to be helped by fate(or Medaka - ding ding that's what his whole speech parallels to!). Devil Style is what brings out the inner strenght of people when they live based on their own merits. When they live like us, true humans, and not manga characters.

Which is what the real world is all about. Which is what we humans live with every day. Which is what Zenkichi realized about his life, his world and his love.

And so, how can you say that his mentality is farthest from the human one, when he is the living embodiment of our reality in Medaka Box? We all think we're special, but that's not because we think we're fated for great things, it's because of our individuality and uniqueness. Fate is what comes in the way of that uniqueness. In a world with Devil Style, where no-one has that biased favoritism, that's where you will subcounsciously speak to yourself: "Yeah, I'm awesome".

So no. That train of though is not unsusal, and it's a concept that we humans struggle with everyday because we don't have a clear-cut anwser in our world. So you saing that Zenkichi isn't a normal guy, when he understands his and other's normality best of all, is completely disingenuous.

Besides, Ajimu agrees:

Spoiler:


Zenkichi was going to become a Super Plus like Medaka, but in the end, what happened?

Spoiler:


Nothing. He stayed the same, without anything. He has nothing special at all. Not a plus. Not a minus. Catch was, that now everyone had equal playing fields to go by. Medaka just isn't very suited for facing Zenkichi in speeches when she's not getting backing from God, clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
The only people who do that are people like Naze, who are so assured of their innate superiority that they think they can easily crawl back up from the bottom. In other words, only a ridiculous Plus would think like that, and Zen spent the entire series beforehand learning that he wasn't.
I told you, we don't think we're special because we think we're favored by fate, we think we're special because we are ourselves.

Devil Style dosen't cast out that notion, it enhances it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
And you think having a moment of doubt before accurately reading the crowd is normal?
You're kidding, right? Moment of doubt refers to his feelings of what do do with Medaka, somethign he'd been thinking about for the entire arc.

He never had any doubt about what the students wanted. They, subcounsciously, wanted to feel the specialty, the unqueness that you yourself already mentioned.

Having Medaka - and by extension, fate, helping, is a detrimental factor to that. After all, what person hasn't done a great think and chalked it up to as a fluke or mere luck instead of being awesome? Instead of one's own effort? Even though chance is irrefutable even in Medaka Box, the problem with living in Medaka Box is that we, the readers, are aware that events are pre-ordained. Even if the regular character is not, Zenkichi, a regular guy, was made aware of this. And he, knowing and understanding his own normality, decided that he wanted to feel as though his feelings were real.

And, inadvertantly, bolstered the subscounscious desire of the students to be special, to not need favoritism. Because we all know Medaka would've won if fate was active, yet, without it, the true desire of the characters could shine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Damn, you're Plus. So Plus you have no idea what Zero even looks like. Free will is absolutely not the solution to all problems, nor even most of them.
What are you even talking about?

Would you like to live in a universe without free-will? Now that's not normal. And Zenkichi saw it as such. He's not normal in the sense of Medaka Box, he's normal in the sense that he's relatable to us, the readers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Frankly, that's kind of the point of the series.
The point of the series is that free-will sucks?

Well, someone better tell Medaka, fast. Because I could've sworn she became 10x happier when she was told to decide her own fate instead of asking Zenkichi for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
You may note that basically all of Zenkichi's efforts always end in vain, except that one time he had Ajimu "overcome the impossible like it's nothing" Najimi on his side.
Maybe in the world run by fate and devoid of free-will, Zenkichi was destined to fail and fail. Before Devil Style. And not all his efforts have gone in vain. Clearly he's engaged to Medaka, even though he does fail to realize that her core, callous self hasn't changed from what he wished. Which is why Fukurou is here. Parallels everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Devil Style isn't an "I win" card, it's a "Medaka loses" card.
It's neither of those, to be honest.

It's a leap of faith. Faith in the fact that you can grow-up and not depend on luck or others. And just be awesome because you're yourself.

~~~

Sorry for the long post, but I'm so excited that I finally get to talk about this, I just couldn't contain myself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape
You know, I'm always mystified when people say stuff like this. I personally know people who have known each other since childhood, started going out in high school, got married afterwards, and lived to a ripe old age together. Are they not human then?

If they're something I've learned over the years, it's that when it comes to interpersonal relationships, nothing is impossible. Unlikely, yes, impossible, no.
I'm definitely not saying it's impossible.

It's just more-than-highly-unsual for Zenkichi because he's 16 years old. Let's be honest here, what kind of 16 years old ties his life to his girlfriend in such a fashion and dosen't most of the time end in disaster. Plus, we've got to consider the fact that they have to come to the realization that Zenkichi might not be comfortable chasing after Medaka for the rest of his life.

I mean, just look at the Doctor here.
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Old 2012-12-11, 17:22   Link #11433
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
After much mentalization, I've figured out what your critical misunderstand is. Here it goes:



Here's the crux of your misunderstanding.

It seems, to me, that you think Devil Style completely eliminates the concepts of chance and specialty.

That's completly incorrect. In-fact, Devil Style does the exact opposite. It brings to like the concepts of chance and being special, truly special for what you are.

Devil Style's only fuction is to create a world without the unatural(in this case, though, natural) favortism of fate.

Before-hand, in Medaka Box, Abnormals would always draw aces, they'd always get straight sixes in dies. That's you being lucky - that's you being favored over others. Except in Medaka Box, not everyone has equal chances at luck. Although, luck dosen't inherently exists(you make your own luck), it's just a byproduct of fate. How can your specialty, your true special human self, shine when you're the one losing simply because you were born under a bad star?

Devil Style is basically a skill that speaks of faith. Faith in people. Faith in their ability to not need to be helped by fate(or Medaka - ding ding that's what his whole speech parallels to!). Devil Style is what brings out the inner strenght of people when they live based on their own merits. When they live like us, true humans, and not manga characters.

Which is what the real world is all about. Which is what we humans live with every day. Which is what Zenkichi realized about his life, his world and his love.
In the real world, sometimes people have faith and then lose. In the real world people bet everything on a dream and then fail. Medaka and Kumagawa are clearly exaggerations, but there are winners and losers in real life. To deny that is to live in a dream. Do you seriously think that every "loser" in the real world just isn't trying hard enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
And so, how can you say that his mentality is farthest from the human one, when he is the living embodiment of our reality in Medaka Box? We all think we're special, but that's not because we think we're fated for great things, it's because of our individuality and uniqueness. Fate is what comes in the way of that uniqueness. In a world with Devil Style, where no-one has that biased favoritism, that's where you will subcounsciously speak to yourself: "Yeah, I'm awesome".

So no. That train of though is not unsusal, and it's a concept that we humans struggle with everyday because we don't have a clear-cut anwser in our world. So you saing that Zenkichi isn't a normal guy, when he understands his and other's normality best of all, is completely disingenuous.
In real life, we gamble. We take risks, and hope for rewards. We can try to maximize our odds, but there's no such thing as a safe bet. As Kumagawa said "what if you die tomorrow?" Zenkichi is betting everything on a future that may or may not come, because he believes that all effort will be rewarded, no ifs ands or buts. Most of us don't do that. We sometimes work hard, sometimes procrastinate. Sometimes we give up on a dream that looks unachievable. Zenkichi doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
Besides, Ajimu agrees:

Spoiler:


Zenkichi was going to become a Super Plus like Medaka, but in the end, what happened?

Spoiler:

Sorry, mangareader is blocked for me. Can you tell me the chapters and pages you're referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
Nothing. He stayed the same, without anything. He has nothing special at all. Not a plus. Not a minus. Catch was, that now everyone had equal playing fields to go by. Medaka just isn't very suited for facing Zenkichi in speeches when she's not getting backing from God, clearly.
Yes, he won once. After Ajimu set everything up to overcome the impossible. Medaka made herself lose. Zenkichi beat the middle schoolers in speechcraft, but Medaka had to have shot herself in the foot to get 2%. As I said, the point there wasn't that Zenkichi became awesome because of his hard work, it was that Medaka stopped being awesome so she no longer got a free pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
I told you, we don't think we're special because we think we're favored by fate, we think we're special because we are ourselves.

Devil Style dosen't cast out that notion, it enhances it.
Again, gambling. Some people literally gamble, others "make investments", but in the end everyone's playing the odds. You think you'll succeed where other people didn't, just because. Not because you put more work in than them, but just because. Some people do put more work in, but that just gives you better odds. You still irrationally think you'll succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
You're kidding, right? Moment of doubt refers to his feelings of what do do with Medaka, somethign he'd been thinking about for the entire arc.

He never had any doubt about what the students wanted. They, subcounsciously, wanted to feel the specialty, the unqueness that you yourself already mentioned.
I think you misread my sentence. The doubt wasn't the emphasis, the "accurately" was. Most people aren't that good at anything. We all doubt sometimes, sure, but it doesn't always pay off in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
Having Medaka - and by extension, fate, helping, is a detrimental factor to that. After all, what person hasn't done a great think and chalked it up to as a fluke or mere luck instead of being awesome? Instead of one's own effort? Even though chance is irrefutable even in Medaka Box, the problem with living in Medaka Box is that we, the readers, are aware that events are pre-ordained. Even if the regular character is not, Zenkichi, a regular guy, was made aware of this. And he, knowing and understanding his own normality, decided that he wanted to feel as though his feelings were real.

And, inadvertantly, bolstered the subscounscious desire of the students to be special, to not need favoritism. Because we all know Medaka would've won if fate was active, yet, without it, the true desire of the characters could shine.
Actually... I guess you have a decent point here. About why they didn't vote for Medaka. It really depends on whether you believe Ajimu or Maguro's explanation though. Both seem reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
What are you even talking about?
I said you're a Plus. You are Medaka from the beginning of the series, except in slightly different words. She said "no one is special" and you're saying "everyone is special" but since it's all relative there's no difference. You think everyone can be great if they simply want to hard enough, and that effort will always be rewarded (in real life). That's the attitude of a Plus. A Minus knows that effort is never rewarded, and a normal person experiences that effort is sometimes rewarded, but not always.

Although... "That naivete... I don't hate it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
Would you like to live in a universe without free-will? Now that's not normal. And Zenkichi saw it as such. He's not normal in the sense of Medaka Box, he's normal in the sense that he's relatable to us, the readers.
Free-will is not the same as self-determination. Even a slave in chains has free will, they just have external constraints on their behavior. They can rebel, but must face the possibility of punishment. Free will is not a "get out of jail free" card, and never has been. And if you go into philosophy, you'll even see a lot of people trying to fit free will into a completely deterministic framework. That's not a contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
The point of the series is that free-will sucks?

Well, someone better tell Medaka, fast. Because I could've sworn she became 10x happier when she was told to decide her own fate instead of asking Zenkichi for that.
No, the point of the series is that while Medaka is a Perfect Plus and other people aren't, they can still be happy. And Medaka has always had control of her fate, she just didn't know what to do with it. And, well, she's still a Perfect Plus. She effortlessly succeeds at anything she tries to do, and only semi-fails when she either meets someone "even more Plus" or intentionally holds back. Even when she lost the election, she got something good out of it. Just as Kumagawa can't imagine true victory, Medaka can't imagine true loss. She's never known loss, and she still hasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
Maybe in the world run by fate and devoid of free-will, Zenkichi was destined to fail and fail. Before Devil Style. And not all his efforts have gone in vain. Clearly he's engaged to Medaka, even though he does fail to realize that her core, callous self hasn't changed from what he wished. Which is why Fukurou is here. Parallels everywhere.
Zenkichi's never been destined to fail. He's not Kumagawa after all. He just keeps trying to do things he can't do, because he's trying to keep up with someone who can do them. He wants to play the hero alongside Medaka, to save her even, but that's just not what he's allowed to do. And he never does. He can win her heart though, although to be honest that's not very difficult. Overflowing Love and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein
It's neither of those, to be honest.

It's a leap of faith. Faith in the fact that you can grow-up and not depend on luck or others. And just be awesome because you're yourself.
You can surely be awesome because you're yourself, but that doesn't mean that you deserve to succeed or that you will. Accepting who you are and your limitations is important here. At the end of the clock tower section of the Successor arc, Zenkichi failed and got pissed at what Medaka said to him. At the end of the Jet Black bride Zenkichi failed and didn't get pissed when Medaka said the exact same thing to him. What changed? Acceptance. He accepted his imperfect self. He accepted that hard work doesn't always pay off.

Edit: Come to think of it, Acceptance has always been the "Minus virtue".
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Old 2012-12-11, 17:31   Link #11434
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post

Devil Style's only fuction is to create a world without the unatural(in this case, though, natural) favortism of fate.

Before-hand, in Medaka Box, Abnormals would always draw aces, they'd always get straight sixes in dies. That's you being lucky - that's you being favored over others. Except in Medaka Box, not everyone has equal chances at luck. Although, luck dosen't inherently exists(you make your own luck), it's just a byproduct of fate. How can your specialty, your true special human self, shine when you're the one losing simply because you were born under a bad star?
This is an interesting statement here. The problem is, what is the difference between unnatural and natural luck? Luck is inherently arbitrary, it defies things like predictions and statistics, common sense and rationality.

There was a man in RL that was struck by lightning seven times and lived. If Devil Style was real, that man would have died the first time lightning hit him. Wouldn't the fact that Devil Style interfered in his life be more abnormal than what actually happened?

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And so, how can you say that his mentality is farthest from the human one, when he is the living embodiment of our reality in Medaka Box? We all think we're special, but that's not because we think we're fated for great things, it's because of our individuality and uniqueness. Fate is what comes in the way of that uniqueness. In a world with Devil Style, where no-one has that biased favoritism, that's where you will subcounsciously speak to yourself: "Yeah, I'm awesome".
I think you're missing a step here. People think that they're special, because they are unique individuals, and that's why we think we're fated for great things. We think that our individuality makes us special, gives us a free pass from fate.

After all, everyone thinks that they're the hero of their own story. People justify things that happen to or because of them in a way that they would never do with other people, because they are themselves.


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I told you, we don't think we're special because we think we're favored by fate, we think we're special because we are ourselves.

Devil Style dosen't cast out that notion, it enhances it.
And as I said, it's because we are ourselves that we think we deserve a free pass from fate.

As for Devil Style, as I said, I can understand why you think that way, but luck and even fate are a part of human lives, after all, we live in a world with other people, with eons of history behind us, that create our fate. For example, it can be someone's fate to fight, because their parents killed a bunch of people and they come for revenge. Would Devil Style negate that fate as well?

You think that Abnormals and Minus are a distortion in the world and that Devil Style removes that distortion. All well and good, but Devil Style itself is a distortion and in the end, you're removing one distortion for another. Just because Devil Style sounds normal, doesn't make it any better

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I'm definitely not saying it's impossible.

It's just more-than-highly-unsual for Zenkichi because he's 16 years old. Let's be honest here, what kind of 16 years old ties his life to his girlfriend in such a fashion and dosen't most of the time end in disaster. Plus, we've got to consider the fact that they have to come to the realization that Zenkichi might not be comfortable chasing after Medaka for the rest of his life.

I mean, just look at the Doctor here.
I can understand that, but the experiences that Zenkichi and Medaka have gone through are far from typical. Is it so odd that the feelings created from those experiences are far from typical?
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Last edited by Endscape; 2012-12-11 at 17:43.
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Old 2012-12-11, 18:07   Link #11435
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
In the real world, sometimes people have faith and then lose. In the real world people bet everything on a dream and then fail. Medaka and Kumagawa are clearly exaggerations, but there are winners and losers in real life. To deny that is to live in a dream. Do you seriously think that every "loser" in the real world just isn't trying hard enough?
I never said faith will always net you a win. You're misunderstanding. I even said, explicitly, that chance is a factor in our universe.

But faith in yourself is an important trait, even if you're failing. It's a vital part of the very human soul. Even if you fail, you have to have faith that you will one day try again and you will win.

But this is for out world.

I Medaka Box, like I stated, fate is a tangible thing. Just look at Unzen always rolling sixes. He's favored, and that's what Zenkichi is getting to. That's what Nishio is getting to. Win without help, do things yourself, have faith in youtself.

Sure, sometimes randomness will make you lose, but that's by no means something to disregard your own specialty for, or give-up.

And that's what Devil Style enhance by destroying Medaka Box's biased form of luck.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Sorry, mangareader is blocked for me. Can you tell me the chapters and pages you're referring to?
I'm on a hurry now, but one is Ajimu approaching Zenkichi straight after the treasure hunt arc, and the other is her explanation of what a Zero is.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Yes, he won once. After Ajimu set everything up to overcome the impossible. Medaka made herself lose. Zenkichi beat the middle schoolers in speechcraft, but Medaka had to have shot herself in the foot to get 2%. As I said, the point there wasn't that Zenkichi became awesome because of his hard work, it was that Medaka stopped being awesome so she no longer got a free pass.
Uh, you mean after Ajimu created Zenkichi's personal skill for him, right? Cause that's the whole reason Medaka was even able to lose. And she lost because, without God intervening, her rhetoric just wasn't as good as Zenkichi's. She advocated helping others all the time, Zenkichi advocated faith in yourself and your individuality. He won.

And that still dosen't mean you'll always win or lose in an impartial universe, but the importance of Zenkichi understanding the feelings of humans and normals is undeniable.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Again, gambling. Some people literally gamble, others "make investments", but in the end everyone's playing the odds. You think you'll succeed where other people didn't, just because. Not because you put more work in than them, but just because. Some people do put more work in, but that just gives you better odds. You still irrationally think you'll succeed.
When have I ever said that?

You seem to be throughly confusing faith with conviction. Faith in yourself is not an absolute certainty of win, nor have I ever said that.

You're either mis-interpreting or making a red-herring here.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I think you misread my sentence. The doubt wasn't the emphasis, the "accurately" was. Most people aren't that good at anything. We all doubt sometimes, sure, but it doesn't always pay off in the end.
And yet sometimes it does. Not always, but, again, you're confusing faith with conviction. I told you Zenkichi won't always succeed, but he has faith that he can succeed without help, and that's the dilemma we were talking about in the first place. Zenkichi understands that people need that faith to be human, and having the concept of "destiny" got in the way of that.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Actually... I guess you have a decent point here. About why they didn't vote for Medaka. It really depends on whether you believe Ajimu or Maguro's explanation though. Both seem reasonable.
Both seem to tell the same story with different words, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I said you're a Plus. You are Medaka from the beginning of the series, except in slightly different words. She said "no one is special" and you're saying "everyone is special" but since it's all relative there's no difference. You think everyone can be great if they simply want to hard enough, and that effort will always be rewarded (in real life). That's the attitude of a Plus. A Minus knows that effort is never rewarded, and a normal person experiences that effort is sometimes rewarded, but not always.
Yeah, definitely. I think people's uniqueness and individuality make them special. Not one person alive is the same, but we do have the some of the same concerns, which is what normality is.

And, yet again, you seem to be confused on that subject. I told you that randomness is a part of life, so effort won't always be rewarded.

But the faith that it might is fundamental to the human condition. Because we all try to do better, to forgive. And if you lose faith in that, you're just like a Kumagawa whose given-up. Which is why destiny and fate sucks. Because it's a non-arbitrary form of luck that rules Medaka Box. Or ruled, if you believe in Devil Style.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Free-will is not the same as self-determination. Even a slave in chains has free will, they just have external constraints on their behavior. They can rebel, but must face the possibility of punishment. Free will is not a "get out of jail free" card, and never has been. And if you go into philosophy, you'll even see a lot of people trying to fit free will into a completely deterministic framework. That's not a contradiction.
And the faith in rebellion, even with the possibility of punishment, is what Zenkichi is advocating with his faith in free-will.

Because in Medaka Box, that slave might've been doomed from the first second the universe was born, so how can we, the readers, who know that we are not bound by a deterministic fate, not see the human in Zenkichi when he understands that fate is an impedement to that very sense you are alluding to?

Because if you don't believe that you might succeed, you'll never try or keep trying. Medaka was giving people an easy way out - an I'll help you pass - and Zenkichi is advocating doing things by your own will. Having faith that you can sometimes suceed, and keep trying even if you fail.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
No, the point of the series is that while Medaka is a Perfect Plus and other people aren't, they can still be happy. And Medaka has always had control of her fate, she just didn't know what to do with it. And, well, she's still a Perfect Plus. She effortlessly succeeds at anything she tries to do, and only semi-fails when she either meets someone "even more Plus" or intentionally holds back. Even when she lost the election, she got something good out of it. Just as Kumagawa can't imagine true victory, Medaka can't imagine true loss. She's never known loss, and she still hasn't.


She has lost.

That stopped being the point of the series after Zenkichi defeated her. A true defeat isn't something that has to crush you beyond repair, the fact that she learned something from being disproven dosen't lessen her defeat in the least.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Zenkichi's never been destined to fail. He's not Kumagawa after all. He just keeps trying to do things he can't do, because he's trying to keep up with someone who can do them. He wants to play the hero alongside Medaka, to save her even, but that's just not what he's allowed to do. And he never does. He can win her heart though, although to be honest that's not very difficult. Overflowing Love and all that.
If you're saying that he dosen't always succeed in being by her side, than that's true.

But if you're saying he can NEVER do that, than that's something Medaka and Zenkichi have already debunked.

He will try, because he has faith. He won't always win, but he's not giving up. By your "Minus" mentality, it seems as though he should just give-up. And that's just destructive towards human nature. We're resilient creatures, we try to do better.

He'll keep trying until he realizes that his behaviour is destructive towards himself, but he is acting in accord to his will, and not giving up until you want to give up is one of the virtue of humans, even if you know you're outmatched, even if you fail sometimes.


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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
You can surely be awesome because you're yourself, but that doesn't mean that you deserve to succeed or that you will. Accepting who you are and your limitations is important here. At the end of the clock tower section of the Successor arc, Zenkichi failed and got pissed at what Medaka said to him. At the end of the Jet Black bride Zenkichi failed and didn't get pissed when Medaka said the exact same thing to him. What changed? Acceptance. He accepted his imperfect self. He accepted that hard work doesn't always pay off.
Again, red herring. What's important is not winning, it's the will to try. That's what Zenkichi is talking about. That's why he creates Devil Style to counter fate and that's why he has faith that people can do things on their own accord.

And, again, who is saying that hard work always pays off? You're the one saying that here. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that the faith in trying to do better, to do things yourselves in Medaka Box's case is what's humanly important here. And is why Zenkichi understands what normality is. Because he's failed so much, yet has the perseverance to keep faith that he can eventually succeed.

And that's important for us humans.

~~~

Endscape, truly sorry, but I really only have the disposition to seriously debate one person at a time. I'll get back onto your stuff when I can, really! I just have certain constraints and such.
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Old 2012-12-11, 19:23   Link #11436
Lupus753
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Now I remember why I don't like to get into debates. Partly from the fear of losing, but also because of fear of letting it go to something like this. Something about this just makes me shake my head (metaphorically) in worry. 'Tis a shame that I am bad at enunciating my thoughts. Or knowing when something is polite or rude.
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Old 2012-12-11, 19:26   Link #11437
Kaisos Erranon
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I wonder if Devil Style will make an actual appearance now that Zenkichi's been erased from existence.
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Old 2012-12-11, 19:45   Link #11438
chidorimen
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Is this board nisio isin troll camp or are these unreadable posts serious?
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Old 2012-12-11, 22:26   Link #11439
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Another thing: an important aspect of Kumagawa's personality early on is that while he would kill people (and often) he'd never, ever let them stay dead. This was the explanation for why he couldn't simply use All Fiction to erase his opponents.
So yeah, I doubt Zenkichi is gone for real.
He likes things to not be his fault. So constantly reviving his victims let him have it both ways.

I wonder if he would kill someone for real though.
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Old 2012-12-11, 22:29   Link #11440
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Originally Posted by jvcscasio View Post
I actually liked Hitoyoshi disappearance 'cause it brought out Shiranui's love for Zenkichi.

So, even if I dislike Kumagawa, he is bringing development to where I want, so way to go!

Even if Zen comes back not loving Medaka, he would fall for her again, I'm sure, but the development would be awesome!
?! Are you sure
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