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Old 2013-01-22, 03:33   Link #11741
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But none were that successful either. Even now the most new players coming in the manga are usually influenced by the successful manga nowadays more so than the past ones.

Past ones influenced the big three (Naruto and Bleach in particular) but for me big three is actually big one and two mediocres attached.

OP is quite influential and the more time will pass the more influential it will be.

The problem is that OP doesnt follow shounen tropes the way Bleach or Naruto does. But at the same time its way too big of a player to ignore.

So what now? Call One Piece not a shounen? If not then Nishio's 'deconstruction' is pointless as it doesnt include the biggest fish in contemporary manga world which in its own right influences the newer manga's thus reshaping the contemporary shounen.
What exactly are you claiming exempts One Piece from Medaka Box's deconstruction? While I will probably never read One Piece, at a glance it seems very much likely that it would follow Shounen Jump's generic mantra of "Friendship, Effort, and Victory". For a better example of a successful shounen which Medaka Box's criticism would not apply to, think Death Note.

You talk about Luffy being "defeated" before but that alone doesn't differentiate him from the rest of shounen protagonists. Take a look over the characters in that page Kaisos posted, or hell even refer to Medaka herself. The simple way that every shounen manga treats "defeat" is just "failure makes you stronger", artificially generating a bit of temporary tension before the main character comes back for an "epic" win. Are you honestly gonna tell me One Piece is different?

A shounen main character does not have to win all the time, but they do win in the end, when it really matters. That is the thing which differentiates idealistic shounen series from reality (not that overly cynical grimdark series are any better). From all I can tell, One Piece is 100% generic shounen (not that I hate shounen or anything). Greatest-selling or not, I will find it pretty funny if you seriously believe otherwise.
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Old 2013-01-22, 06:51   Link #11742
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
A shounen main character does not have to win all the time, but they do win in the end, when it really matters.
And thats what did not happen in OP. Because battle for someone who is close to you life is what I call a battle when it really damn matters and luffy lost it.

Usually such big events only happen in shounen's beginning as a stimulation for MC to train get batter and come back kicking ass not in the middle of the story with all the training and powerups with all the super determination to save the life of your only family member and failing to do so.
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Old 2013-01-22, 07:15   Link #11743
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And thats what did not happen in OP. Because battle for someone who is close to you life is what I call a battle when it really damn matters and luffy lost it.

Usually such big events only happen in shounen's beginning as a stimulation for MC to train get batter and come back kicking ass not in the middle of the story with all the training and powerups with all the super determination to save the life of your only family member and failing to do so.
To be fair, Luffy did kind of win. He managed to get the seastone cuffs of Ace and was in the process of getting away. If Ace didn't fall for Akainu's taunts, he would have made it, probably.
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Old 2013-01-22, 07:20   Link #11744
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To be fair, Luffy did kind of win. He managed to get the seastone cuffs of Ace and was in the process of getting away. If Ace didn't fall for Akainu's taunts, he would have made it, probably.
He got that far though not because of his own strength or determination but because all the big ones were occupied within themselves, when Luffy had to face them he looked weak. If not Whitebeards help Luffy would have been dead together with Ace. Luffy's determination, power-ups, experience and all that usual shounen boosts were quite useless.
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Old 2013-01-22, 07:52   Link #11745
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I suspect some people have decided that Medaka Box is a deconstruction of all things shounen and then get upset when certain parts don't seem to match up their idea of what a deconstruction should be. I personally think MB has fun with shounen tropes, while sometimes containing deconstructive elements (particularly the characters of Kumagawa and Ajimu, though not always). But! I don't need it to be or not be a deconstruction to enjoy it! Even when I don't always like the direction of the manga, it's still damn entertaining every week. And thus, I sincerely enjoy it. /endrant
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Old 2013-01-22, 08:48   Link #11746
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
He got that far though not because of his own strength or determination but because all the big ones were occupied within themselves, when Luffy had to face them he looked weak. If not Whitebeards help Luffy would have been dead together with Ace. Luffy's determination, power-ups, experience and all that usual shounen boosts were quite useless.
Well hey, that's "main character" luck too. Exactly the type of coincidence which Devil Style was talking about. Why did Luffy survive, but not his brother? Because one of them is the MC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And thats what did not happen in OP. Because battle for someone who is close to you life is what I call a battle when it really damn matters and luffy lost it.

Usually such big events only happen in shounen's beginning as a stimulation for MC to train get batter and come back kicking ass not in the middle of the story with all the training and powerups with all the super determination to save the life of your only family member and failing to do so.
So what's the aftermath of the story? Did Luffy get back up? Did he take down the guys who killed his brother? Did the story come out with a theme about perseverence in the face of tragedy, and your loved ones still being in your heart? That is the shounen formula, dude (again, not that I have any real problems with it). There is no reason at all why a shounen protagonist can only be defeated at the start. But the fact is that they're the MC, so in the end they're gonna win.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2013-01-22, 09:02   Link #11747
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
He got that far though not because of his own strength or determination but because all the big ones were occupied within themselves, when Luffy had to face them he looked weak. If not Whitebeards help Luffy would have been dead together with Ace. Luffy's determination, power-ups, experience and all that usual shounen boosts were quite useless.
That's the point, the reason shounen main characters win isn't only because of friendship or effort, though that plays a part. They win because they have power in the first place. If you're weak, you'll lose even though you have friends or try hard. Though, it's a chicken and egg kind of question: do you have power because you're the main character, or is it because you have power that you're the main character?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 17Sevens View Post
I suspect some people have decided that Medaka Box is a deconstruction of all things shounen and then get upset when certain parts don't seem to match up their idea of what a deconstruction should be. I personally think MB has fun with shounen tropes, while sometimes containing deconstructive elements (particularly the characters of Kumagawa and Ajimu, though not always). But! I don't need it to be or not be a deconstruction to enjoy it! Even when I don't always like the direction of the manga, it's still damn entertaining every week. And thus, I sincerely enjoy it. /endrant
Yeah, people don't realise that you can't deconstruct everything all the time.
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Old 2013-01-22, 10:16   Link #11748
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So what's the aftermath of the story? Did Luffy get back up? Did he take down the guys who killed his brother? Did the story come out with a theme about perseverence in the face of tragedy, and your loved ones still being in your heart?
But the main characters being main characters is a problem of not just shounen but all manga or anime or novels or films industry in general. They sometimes kill off MC but such events happen very very rarely and only if the side-characetrs have plaenty of growth to overtake the role.

Main characters are supposed to be main characters you know. Its not just shounen thing.

And no Luffy didnt get back up, he was knocked out cold, nearly died and did not defeat the guy but got himself a nice pair of new scars.
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Old 2013-01-22, 11:42   Link #11749
Libros
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But the main characters being main characters is a problem of not just shounen but all manga or anime or novels or films industry in general. They sometimes kill off MC but such events happen very very rarely and only if the side-characetrs have plaenty of growth to overtake the role.

Main characters are supposed to be main characters you know. Its not just shounen thing.

And no Luffy didnt get back up, he was knocked out cold, nearly died and did not defeat the guy but got himself a nice pair of new scars.
And a new shirt with frills later on. Naturally new powers come with the package too. Does a love interest count too? Same for Black beard, does he count as a new enemy?
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:38   Link #11750
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Spoiler for 179:
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:38   Link #11751
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Spoiler for 179:
Well that is that.
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:39   Link #11752
Kaisos Erranon
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Spoiler for 179:
Hah oh wow I was wrong.
Good.
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:53   Link #11753
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Hah oh wow I was wrong.
Good.
Spoiler for nothing really:
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:57   Link #11754
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Well, Zenkichi and Kumagawa have gone there. Why not Medaka?
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Old 2013-01-22, 18:52   Link #11755
Kaisos Erranon
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Spoiler for nothing really:
Well yeah, I meant more in that
Spoiler for not really anything either:
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Old 2013-01-22, 19:26   Link #11756
jamiea483
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it would be be sick Zenkichi got a new power since he is the "new MC" of the manga lol
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Old 2013-01-22, 19:31   Link #11757
Wolfenstein
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Well, Zenkichi and Kumagawa have gone there. Why not Medaka?
Indeed.

I mean, uniqueness? Pfft. Who needs that shit?

Everyone, after-life party in the classroom, whoooo!
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Old 2013-01-22, 19:45   Link #11758
Kaisos Erranon
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Actually, on second thought, her being there doesn't really mean anything either way.
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Old 2013-01-23, 04:15   Link #11759
Westlo
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Bye bye Kurogane... the weakest established link is now....

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Also, this is why the word "deconstruction" is very stupid.
Blame Madoka for making it the new cool kids word /facepalm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Furthermore, you realize that Bleach and Naruto are themselves heavily inspired by FotNS, Dragonball, etc, right?
Naruto "borrowed" a lot from Hunter X Hunter as well... which is currently outselling it, won't be long before it comes back into Jump...
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Old 2013-01-23, 04:27   Link #11760
Xion Valkyrie
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Naruto "borrowed" a lot from Hunter X Hunter as well... which is currently outselling it, won't be long before it comes back into Jump...
HxH isn't on hiatus because of sales

The mangaka has more than enough money to never work again. He'll only come back if he 'feels' like it.
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