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Old 2013-02-13, 19:34   Link #12041
DawnEmperor
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Or how about the hero isn't chosen for some deep reason, it's out of necessity, or "the best thing we've got right now". I think I might have brought this up earlier, but the main character in the end is simply the story of a character(or in an ensemble cast, a set of characters). There's no guarantee of them getting special treatment in-universe, or being all powerful. Sometimes we just see a character's struggle, and sometimes we see their complete and utter failure.
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Old 2013-02-13, 19:37   Link #12042
Lupus753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Joutou explained with much clarity why she chose to revive Zenkichi of all people and you still think Medaka is going to make a comeback. *facepalm*

Even in this series with so much twists and unexpected developments there're certain limits, believe it or not. Yes, I think you are being too much paranoid
Sometimes, an author can cry wolf, causing his audience to become once bitten, twice shy. Even if the wolfcry is not entirely the same as that causing the fans to be shy. Or something.

Anyway, there have been times before when it seemed Zen would accomplish something of worth only, ehh, no. My point is, people have plenty of reason to be paranoid.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:09   Link #12043
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
Sometimes, an author can cry wolf, causing his audience to become once bitten, twice shy. Even if the wolfcry is not entirely the same as that causing the fans to be shy. Or something.

Anyway, there have been times before when it seemed Zen would accomplish something of worth only, ehh, no. My point is, people have plenty of reason to be paranoid.
TBF he still did beat Medaka and ultimately saved Shiranui, "beat" Kumagawa with aijimu's help etc only really the black wedding arc was he purposefully trolled.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:25   Link #12044
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF he still did beat Medaka and ultimately saved Shiranui, "beat" Kumagawa with aijimu's help etc only really the black wedding arc was he purposefully trolled.
I said that because I feel that Zenkichi's defeat of Medaka did not cause any lasting changes, despite the manga's insistence that it did (okay, it changed Medaka's hair style -- until recently). For instance, Medaka did not change in personality, despite the manga's insistence that she did. His defeat of Kuma was pretty minor in comparison to everything else, but maybe...
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:32   Link #12045
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I hate this chapter. How dare they made the Princess Suitor did all the dirty work. She already wounded and messed up.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:38   Link #12046
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF he still did beat Medaka and ultimately saved Shiranui, "beat" Kumagawa with aijimu's help etc only really the black wedding arc was he purposefully trolled.
And it was quite obvious he would, after taking the spotlight for ten chapters or more.

Here is all the opposite, he started on the sidelines, and now his time has finally come.

And as you say, he did a lot more. Here's a list of Zenkichi's accomplishments throughout the history:

-Beats the crap out of the insurgent who had a grudge on Medaka.

-When deciphering the code to open the door leading to the underground lab, the key number suddenly changed to his birth date.

-Defeats Kei Munakata, and abnormal, by using his skills and intelligence.

-Brings Medaka back to her senses.

-Defeats Kumagawa, the minus who gave Medaka a trauma once, sacrificing his own life in the process.

-Gives Emukae Mukae a reason for her to keep living when she had already given up.

-Gets the attention of the almighty Ajimu Najimi and becomes her test subject for the Flask Plan.

-Delivers Medaka a huge defeat in the last elections for Studen Council President.

-Finally confesses her love to Medaka.

-His relationship with Shiranui, his best friend, is displayed and it shows how much they care for each other.

And now...

-Joutou states he's the only one who can bring Shiranui back and end Iihiko's reign of terror once and for all.

No matter how you look at, Zenkichi did a lot more and every of his achievements hold a deeper meaning than anything Medaka did.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:43   Link #12047
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
I said that because I feel that Zenkichi's defeat of Medaka did not cause any lasting changes, despite the manga's insistence that it did (okay, it changed Medaka's hair style -- until recently). For instance, Medaka did not change in personality, despite the manga's insistence that she did. His defeat of Kuma was pretty minor in comparison to everything else, but maybe...
TBF Medaka did change she's no longer on a trip to save all humans because all humans can be changed and are angels inside. Medaka wasn't going to suddenly change personality that was unrealistic, his purpose for defeating her was to make her reasses her life plan not to forcibly change it, he even said he would be fine if she came to the conclusion that she was born to help humanity. He just wanted it to be her choice rather than her clinging to his ideals.

I think rather you were expecting something it was never implied to do, the reason why people are annoyed by the fallout is basically because Medaka was still the main character and as long as that was the case without massively altering her personality the status quo would largely remain the same, though that's not because the defeat wasn't important, more to do with the readers wanting a far bigger change, a massive change in what would essentially be a MC change (either Medaka being totally different character or Zenkichi taking over).
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:50   Link #12048
K. Shiruto
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Changing Medaka's personality would kill the contrast with Zenkichi.

Why is that Tenchi always comes with good arguments and counter-arguments. Tell me your secret XD
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:51   Link #12049
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF Medaka did change she's no longer on a trip to save all humans because all humans can be changed and are angels inside. Medaka wasn't going to suddenly change personality that was unrealistic, his purpose for defeating her was to make her reasses her life plan not to forcibly change it, he even said he would be fine if she came to the conclusion that she was born to help humanity. He just wanted it to be her choice rather than her clinging to his ideals.

I think rather you were expecting something it was never implied to do, the reason why people are annoyed by the fallout is basically because Medaka was still the main character and as long as that was the case without massively altering her personality the status quo would largely remain the same, though that's not because the defeat wasn't important, more to do with the readers wanting a far bigger change, a massive change in what would essentially be a MC change (either Medaka being totally different character or Zenkichi taking over).
I, personally, would not consider changing your personality to be unrealistic. At least, not to the extent I hoped. Having a character do the exact same thing she did previously, but switch out her motivation, then calling that "change" or "character development" is a cop-out.

For your second paragraph, yeah, that is pretty close to what I expected to happen. Medaka actually being different, I mean.
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Old 2013-02-13, 20:53   Link #12050
DawnEmperor
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@Kurusu-Shido Why would his achievements hold deeper meaning than Medaka's actions? They're pivotal but it's pretty subjective to suggest that.

And while I may not completely agree, there's always the moral ambiguity to his actions. He's flawed and his actions do carry that weight to.
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Old 2013-02-13, 21:01   Link #12051
K. Shiruto
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^I just was merely providing my own personal opinion, nothing else. Zenkichi is of the class of people I like the most.
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Old 2013-02-13, 21:05   Link #12052
Lupus753
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Changing Medaka's personality would kill the contrast with Zenkichi.
Definitely the lesser of two evils for me.
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Old 2013-02-13, 21:10   Link #12053
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
@Kurusu-Shido Why would his achievements hold deeper meaning than Medaka's actions? They're pivotal but it's pretty subjective to suggest that.

And while I may not completely agree, there's always the moral ambiguity to his actions. He's flawed and his actions do carry that weight to.
We're pretty much at the crossroads fairly similar to Aijimu's arc where a lot of what happens will retrospectively define what came before, character standings and motivations etc. The funny thing is this manga has lost anything really resembling a plot it's basically a series of events which means any character definition are temporary anyway. The author doesn't have to adherre to a consistent logic based a on a story thread because there's no forseeable one from the readers perspective, the main character could change and change again and there would be no contradictions, because the stories not driving to any specific event.

So questions like who actions were more important are pretty pointless because it's important in regards to what, there's no goal to measure importance against. The author can take this story anywhere but until he takes the story somewhere things like overalll plot importance don't exist apart who is currently the MC and who is not.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:01   Link #12054
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF is the missing memories even a real plot point anymore Kumagawa is a "good" guy Aijimu is dead, unless Nisio is going to bring out another character from nowhere to make it revelant again I don't really see what it adds to the story anymore, back when either Aijimu or Kumagawa was a villain it was relevant not really anymore.
If she is really dead in the first place.
As I already pointed out immortality wouldn't be something directly effecting Ikihiko in the first place and was a non-corporal being once before (even some people didn't like this interpretation).
Another point is, which people also didn't like btw, that we never saw her corpse. We saw her getting cut in half, and Ikihiko didn't even present one half of her body or a ripped off finger he presented her cut-off hair.
Sorry but this is suspicious no matter how you look at it

- And now see who suddenly returned from the dead for 3 panels.

Another explaination would be that Nienenami is another backup of Anshin'in.
A computer makes more than one backup point too,.

If you want to prove someone dead the best way to show it is to show their corpse, not some piece of hair, like it was done with Medaka's uncle.

Another suspicious point is how Ikihiko himself said Anshin'in is 'omnipotent'. While I don't know all religions of the world I have yet to hear of an omnipotent goddess or god dying. The closest case I know about would be an Egyptian god being killed and his body parts kept at different places all over the world. Egyptian gods were, just as Greek gods, never Omnipotent though, so it was never impossible to wound them in the first place.

The same concept of Skills not directly affecting Ikihiko could also work with Zenkichi's skill btw.

Whatever will happen next it is pretty clear that it won't end with all the people who are dead at the moment being dead.
Maybe Medaka will stay dead, maybe even Hitoyoshi, but it is pretty safe to say that Kumagawa and the others will survive.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:09   Link #12055
Lupus753
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@AC-Phoenix: Of course Iihiko showed them Ajimu's hair! If he showed them half of her body, Nienami couldn't wear her hair like a wig.

The closest equivalent I can think of is that many Hindus believe that their Gods will die trillions of years from now, as part of the universe's death and rebirth, and will be restored with that new universe. Like many things, this is far from a universal belief among Hindus.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:24   Link #12056
Kaisos Erranon
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Gods die all the time throughout many mythologies. They just don't tend to stay that way.
You'll notice that Ajimu's speech bubbles alone didn't have that echo affect to them. She's real.
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
If he showed them half of her body, Nienami couldn't wear her hair like a wig.
I've mentioned this before, but there's no way Nienami should know that Ajimu once had white hair.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:30   Link #12057
summers
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this is getting really lame. Like just some other manga climax
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:42   Link #12058
Wolfenstein
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Well this chapter was...pretty freakin' incredible.

Definitely up there with "The first and only bias action" and "You're Forgiven". Let's hope Nishio can keep it up.
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:52   Link #12059
Nvis
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Once again my Yuzuriha Kakegae surprises me!

Last picture of chapter = harem candidate?
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Old 2013-02-13, 23:57   Link #12060
Kaisos Erranon
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Last picture of chapter = harem candidate?
Is there anyone who isn't a harem candidate?
...Wanizukia?
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