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Old 2013-03-04, 09:41   Link #12581
Wolfenstein
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To be honest...I don't get the vibe that Medaka actually loved Heat at any point. Which begs the question as to why she would lead him on like that, but at this point, I doubt it's supposed to be consistant.
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:56   Link #12582
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I don't know, bro. Obviously, there will always be people who enjoy Medaka's character for her traits...

But...I've never seen such a collected opinion on the fact that a character was meant to be terrible in a single fanbase.

I mean, she's definitely not supposed to be the character you cheer for. Let's type in "Medaka Box character popularity poll" on google and see what the first non-jump result yields us:

46 - Misogi(understandable)
27 - Heat(understandable)
6 - Medaka(understandable?)
5 - Others

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/27...opularity-poll

That's a...pretty glaring disparity there. Even worst counting the fact the poor gal already lost top-three position in Japan. Maybe this was Nishio's plan. I mean, certainly could be given how his use of the character dosen't actually change much at all from the beguinning of the manga where she explicitly and undoubtedly was made the Mother of all Sue's, to later be deconstructed in the Election year(though admittedly, with very little results shown).
Maybe he's rectifying a mistake or just concluding his plan now. After all, this ending was incredibly out-of-the-blue and rushed.

What I mean is: to most, the side-characters are what makes and breaks the manga. People read Medaka Box for Misogi and Heat(the majority at least), for Naze, for Shiranui, for Tsurubami, for Ajimu, for Emukae, for Kei, and most importantly, for Nienami. I'm sure some people read the Manga singlulary for it's seeming protagonist, though, not saying those don't exist.
You kinda see what I'm getting at, don't you? She's, at the very least, not the kind of protagonist designed to be more relatable/likeable than her supporting cast.

To me, It's more like Medaka's cog, her usefulness, is that she elevates the characters near her. I can recognize and respect that she does, indeed, have a use to the story, but it's a sort of gimmicky form of story-telling that I think was never really nescessary.

Sure, it's just a hypothesis. but you must admit: it's pretty darn interesting one, when you think about it.
What you see as a "collective opinion" is nothing but the result of confirmation bias and the insular circle-jerking developed by a simultaneously large and ignorant audience.

It's one thing to simply personally not like Medaka, but to claim that no one is meant to like Medaka because she was 'intentionally' written to be unlikeable is an impressively delusional act of mistaking opinion for fact.

Rather than taking "popularity polls" and the western fanbase as your point of reference, any analysis of Nishio's 'intentions' would be much better served by an overview of Nishio's other works themselves.

Now, Medaka herself is a more flawed and human character than many of these other characters. However, her essential role and archetype, that of an overpoweringly strong/invincible female character, is one Nishio has used many times over. You talk about "shounen tropes" and say that Medaka is meant to be hated - but then, let me ask, all of these other characters: Jun Aikawa, Yasuri Nanami, Kiss-shot Heart-under-blade, Mizukara Risuka -- to speak only of characters from Nishio's english-translated works, all of whom are just as overpowered and overpowering as Medaka -- were they meant to be hated as well? No?

The only difference between Medaka Box and those other series is that in the other stories there don't exist such bland and underwhelming male protagonists as Zenkichi for shounen-kiddies to self-insert into, leading to blind-resentment being built up once they realize that Medaka Box will not pander to their fantasies (the standard shounen setup of having a guy somehow be the strongest and most powerful character who beats up on bad guys, and then has girls tripping over themselves to chase after him).

The plain fact is just that Medaka Box in specific, and Nishio's works in general are simply conceptually above the level that the average shounen-kiddie/Shounen Jump reader can appreciate. That is not to say that Medaka Box is without faults, because there are plenty of places where Nishio's dumbing down of Medaka Box to attempt to match shounen standards has made things awkward. However, at the end of the day all of the seething resentment in the west towards Medaka herself ultimately comes down to a inability of swathes of the Medaka Box 'fandom' to grasp the fundamental nature of this series and its characters.

Medaka is meant to be an actual character whose principle story is about becoming (seen as) human. Her core conflict is about how her overwhelming ability isolates her from other humans, and how (like Iihiko) the principle desire of people in this sort of situation is simply to connect with others and achieve communication. Medaka has an entirely meaningful character arc on her own, more important than either Zenkichi's or Kumagawa's matter of factly, and her conflict in fact represents the core subject of development in the story. It's precisely because of this that the developments of the latest chapter, despite being ridiculously rushed from several perspectives, could in fact potentially signify the ending of the series.

(This is also the reason for Medaka's historically poor performance in Jump in Japan. From the start, Medaka Box has mostly been held up by a core base of fans of Nishio's works in general, who were responsible for the volume sales and participated in discussions via forums like 2ch but did not participate in any great degree in Jump's popularity/ranking system proper. Although Kumagawa did add some mainstream appeal to the series by finally bringing in an actually interesting principle male character, Medaka nevertheless has never truly caught the main shounen audience as far as Jump is concerned. Kumagawa's introduction also brought a bump in the volume sales at the time representing increased interest from Nishio's core audience, but the stagnation/decline of the volume sales (corresponding to the lack of growth for Medaka Box amongst even Nishio's core audience) is the reason the manga is in some level of actual trouble right now.)
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:15   Link #12583
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What you see as a "collective opinion" is nothing but the result of confirmation bias and the insular circle-jerking developed by a simultaneously large and ignorant audience.
Have you ever thought that that might be the effect that the author wanted to cause by making the protagonist so unlikeable?
After all, it strenghtens the readers to everyone around the protagonist. Sounds pretty effective.

We can talk all day about Medaka's character, but the truth of the matter is, she kinda has that effect on the fanbase.

I, for one, think it was totally intentional. Though, it is just a hypothesis.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:29   Link #12584
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Have you ever thought that that might be the effect that the author wanted to cause by making the protagonist so unlikeable?
After all, it strenghtens the readers to everyone around the protagonist. Sounds pretty effective.

We can talk all day about Medaka's character, but the truth of the matter is, she kinda has that effect on the fanbase.

I, for one, think it was totally intentional. Though, it is just a hypothesis.
As I said, the 'fanbase' you are talking about is limited to the shounen-kiddies who primarily only read Jump manga. On the western side, in terms of exposure to Nishio even people who have more breadth in their tastes have probably only been exposed to the *Monogatari series. Fundamentally most of these people would be lacking the background/perspective necessary to understand the actual intentions of Medaka Box's narrative.

I don't disagree that the way Nishio situated Medaka and Zenkichi within the story might have been an intentional troll, though. Not to say that he wanted for Medaka to be disliked, but that he intended to make the story frustrating for anybody who expected Zenkichi to act/have a position like any traditional shounen protagonist. Despite the fact that Ajimu offered and Zenkichi explicitly declined the chance at such a position, this is seemingly still what many Zenkichi fans are looking for, which is the root of why they hate Medaka.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:39   Link #12585
ccie20012
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@Sol Falling
Kiss-shot Heart-under-blade and Medaka is very different. Medaka (especially in the last arc) is the archetype/stereotype fool in love MC. The power here is not to blame. Kiss-shot looks very feminine/kawai/moe (behaves like a normal girl). Therefore she beloved by fans.

Not necessarily be both protagonist and a fool in love. It's only Nishino choice.
As example very different character: Hakaze Kusaribe from Zetsuen no Tempest.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:40   Link #12586
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As I said, the 'fanbase' you are talking about is limited to the shounen-kiddies who primarily only read Jump manga. On the western side, in terms of exposure to Nishio even people who have more breadth in their tastes have probably only been exposed to the *Monogatari series. Fundamentally most of these people would be lacking the background/perspective necessary to understand the actual intentions of Medaka Box's narrative.

I don't disagree that the way Nishio situated Medaka and Zenkichi within the story might have been an intentional troll, though. Not to say that he wanted for Medaka to be disliked, but that he intended to make the story frustrating for anybody who expected Zenkichi to act/have a position like any traditional shounen protagonist. Despite the fact that Ajimu offered and Zenkichi explicitly declined the chance at such a position, this is seemingly still what many Zenkichi fans are looking for, which is the root of why they hate Medaka.
TBF the mere fact he situated it in such a point that'd it'd be frustrating for anyone wanting a MC change would have to mean he situated it in the point where the protagonist is that unliked. Typically protagonists aren't that unliked. Sure it's far from uncommon for them not to be always ranked first in a popularity poll but I can't really think of an instance in a popular shounen where the main protagonist has ranked lower than 3 though there's probably some harems of which i haven't seen the polls where the MC is probably ranked lower. Sad thing is we don't even know if Medaka ranked 4th all we know is that the maximum is 4th.

Typically MC changes don't occur unless the protagonist is killed (or some equivalent e.g sealed) or they weren't the main protagonist in the first place. Either that or it's a character completely not revealed until that point in time, Rarely does an author imply a protagonist change inside the group itself unless it was obvious the current MC was simply a proxy.

In regards to Medaka's overall popularity, the only people that'd bother to vote in a popularity poll are hard core fans, most of the readerbase doesn't care enough to bother like in any poll. So saying only random kids, that occasional read Medaka box vote in the poll rings false, Medaka box never really was popular amongst that fanbase to begin with, why would they be voting in that poll. By all metrics we have Medaka is currently a very unpopular character, it's probably due to a mixture of Nisio not designing her to be particularily popular (though obviously still to be popular popular), and readers getting sick of her character which would explain her consistent decrease in popularity.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:41   Link #12587
Wolfenstein
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Why do you act as if it's only fans of one character who don't enjoy her spotlight?

As far as I've garnered from observation, it's because she's focused on too much when nearly every character around her is better or more interesting. Pretty much the reason to dislike the character.
Normally, in most series, this isn't a problem, because usually, the protagonist is the most interesting/relatable to the majority.

Yet, that's clearly not the case. Medaka in Japan dosen't even surpass Akune, Zen or Misogi(not that she ever did) anymore, all three supporting/side characters, in likeability. And whoooo. Internationally, she's doing much worse. Heck I even think a recent poll or something had Naze as the most famous girl in...something. I can't recall. Maybe someone can pick that up.

And I think that's kind of the effect Nishio wanted to create.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:44   Link #12588
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by ccie20012 View Post
@Sol Falling
Kiss-shot Heart-under-blade and Medaka is very different. Medaka (especially in the last arc) is the archetype/stereotype fool in love MC. The power here is not to blame. Kiss-shot looks very feminine/kawai/moe (behaves like a normal girl). Therefore she beloved by fans.

Not necessarily be both protagonist and a fool in love. It's only Nishino choice.
As example very different character: Hakaze Kusaribe from Zetsuen no Tempest.
That's basically part of what I meant when I said Medaka is "more flawed and human". However, none of that has anything to do with why Medaka is hated by large parts of the western fandom, which was the point of the conversation.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:50   Link #12589
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
That's basically part of what I meant when I said Medaka is "more flawed and human". However, none of that has anything to do with why Medaka is hated by large parts of the western fandom, which was the point of the conversation.
And Japanese fanbase unless your going to assume a demographic that doesn't care about the manga voted in majority on the manga's popularity poll. Which generally doesn't happen very often in statistics.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:55   Link #12590
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Nisio not designing her to be particularily popular (though obviously still to be popular popular)
At the very least, one must recognize, it's doubtful that Nishio intended her to be more likeable/interesting than her side's.

Which is kinda the core point of what I was getting at.
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:03   Link #12591
Tenchi Hou Take
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At the very least, one must recognize, it's doubtful that Nishio intended her to be more likeable/interesting than her side's.

Which is kinda the core point of what I was getting at.
I think at the very least that was certainly the case during, the election arc, most of that was spent showing her in a negative manner though obviously "redeemed" by the arc finale it didn't really alter the effect it had on the reader. That and the fact her character didn't really change too much after the whole ordeal.
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:09   Link #12592
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I think at the very least that was certainly the case during, the election arc, most of that was spent showing her in a negative manner though obviously "redeemed" by the arc finale it didn't really alter the effect it had on the reader. That and the fact her character didn't really change too much after the whole ordeal.
Indeed.

I feel as though that's what generally happened.

I mean...let me give you an example.

Spoiler:


/troll

Yeah, needless to say, I wouldn't have minded the first troll, cause that shit would've been cool.
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:23   Link #12593
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF the mere fact he situated it in such a point that'd it'd be frustrating for anyone wanting a MC change would have to mean he situated it in the point where the protagonist is that unliked. Typically protagonists aren't that unliked. Sure it's far from uncommon for them not to be always ranked first in a popularity poll but I can't really think of an instance in a popular shounen where the main protagonist has ranked lower than 3 though there's probably some harems of which i haven't seen the polls where the MC is probably ranked lower. Sad thing is we don't even know if Medaka ranked 4th all we know is that the maximum is 4th.

Typically MC changes don't occur unless the protagonist is killed (or some equivalent e.g seasled) or they weren't the main protagonist in the first place. Either that or it's a character completely not revealed until that point in time, Rarely does an author imply a protagonst change inside the group itself unless it was obvious the current MC was simply a proxy.
Don't really know where you're getting all these generalizations. Can you bring up an example of another manga which has a protagonist change in the sense that you are talking about Medaka Box?

Quote:
In regards to Medaka's overall popularity, the only people that'd bother to vote in a popularity poll are hard core fans, most of the readerbase doesn't care enough to bother like in any poll. So saying only random kids, that occasional read Medaka box vote in the poll rings false, Medaka box never really was popular amongst that fanbase to begin with, why would they be voting in that poll. By all metrics we have Medaka is currently a very unpopular character, it's probably due to a mixture of Nisio not designing her to be particularily popular (though obviously still to be popular popular), and readers getting sick of her character which would explain her consistent decrease in popularity.
The core fans I talked about might vote in the character popularity poll, but I doubt they'd vote in the weekly rankings. That contradicts the fact that Medaka Box's volume sales never matched up with its rankings in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Why do you act as if it's only fans of one character who don't enjoy her spotlight?

As far as I've garnered from observation, it's because she's focused on too much when nearly every character around her is better or more interesting. Pretty much the reason to dislike the character.
Normally, in most series, this isn't a problem, because usually, the protagonist is the most interesting/relatable to the majority.

Yet, that's clearly not the case. Medaka in Japan dosen't even surpass Akune, Zen or Misogi(not that she ever did) anymore, all three supporting/side characters, in likeability. And whoooo. Internationally, she's doing much worse. Heck I even think a recent poll or something had Naze as the most famous girl in...something. I can't recall. Maybe someone can pick that up.

And I think that's kind of the effect Nishio wanted to create.
There is no such thing as 'side-character fans' who just like every character except Medaka. There are basically only three characters in Medaka Box who are eligible to receive any consistently large amount of focus, and they are Medaka, Zenkichi, and Kumagawa. If people are complaining about Medaka's screentime, then they are either Zenkichi fans or Kumagawa fans foremost, else they wouldn't be able to justify keeping up with the manga in the first place. By contrast, the smaller group who are not fans of any character and just have a general interest in Medaka Box would have no reason to hate Medaka at the exclusion of others because her character development is perfectly sufficient and legitimate to justify her position in the story.

(There might be a minor faction who could legitimately say that they have been reading (recently) for Ajimu, but that is only on account of the focus she's recieved due to the recentness of her introduction/character arc. Ultimately Ajimu has never been a main character on the level of Medaka, Kumagawa, or Zenkichi.)

(The Naze case is a similar situation, that was Biglobe poll about people's favourite anime character where she had focus. There's nobody who actually reads Medaka Box just for Naze.)

Akune's placement on the character poll was on account of fujoshi who were fans of Akune's voice actor in the anime. Meanwhile Zenkichi got bumped up (about ~300) because he recently had a major arc and, as I said, he holds greater appeal for the standard Shounen Jump audience. As for the poll overall, however, the overall drop of something like 3000 votes indicated a strong decline in the popularity of Medaka Box in general amongst the core Nishio audience. This would explain the drop in Medaka's placement (from ~900 to where she is now, wherever that might be) given what I explained above, in the same way that Kumagawa (who can be assumed to still be the most popular amongst the core audience) had a gigantic drop of 1000 in his vote total, despite still being first.

Likely none of this was particularly planned by Nishio, particularly the thing about Akune. Although certainly, with regards to that specific period in the manga (Not Equals arc), you could make the argument that for a time Medaka was deliberately made to be unlikeable, but then there is a clear contrast of her characterization there with everything afterwards.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-04 at 11:34.
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:26   Link #12594
Tenchi Hou Take
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Indeed.

I feel as though that's what generally happened.

I mean...let me give you an example.

Spoiler:


/troll

Yeah, needless to say, I wouldn't have minded the first troll, cause that shit would've been cool.
I think my issue wa it was pretty much Aijimu wins total victory, next chapter Medaka convinces a godlike existence in the space of a chapter that her theory was wrong (when in fact she was right...). Despite the fact this whole arc was supposed to decronstructive how much of a horrible Mary Sue she is. And I'm just supposed to accept that?

Why what kinda moron you supposed to me for (and I'd guess Nisio expected that reaction or at least I hope he did there's no way a decent proportion of the readerbase wouldn't).

I think the worst thing was that in the preceedng arc it had all his hype on focusing on a fresh set of more minor characters in a serious arc, they all get trolled and we spend the rest of the arc watching Medaka win predictably the final "fight" with no real help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Don't really know where you're getting all these generalizations. Can you bring up any example of another manga which has a protagonist change in the sense that you are talking about Medaka Box?



The core fans I talked about might vote in the character popularity poll, but I doubt they'd vote in the weekly rankings. That contradicts the fact that Medaka Box's volume sales never matched up with its rankings in the first place.


Of course they don't that doesn't have anything to do with the popularity discussion at hand, since that's about the entire manga rather than specific characters.

Also I wasn't talking about manga's in MB position I'm saying MB's position is rare as most other implied or actual MC change don't occur that why, though typically The current MC is popular anyway, which is why people generally don't like MC changes. Though I could probably see a MC change to any character that isn't Medaka and is reasonably popular recieved warmly (though this is an opinion nota fact I obviously have no idea but that's the sense I'm getting).
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:46   Link #12595
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Of course they don't that doesn't have anything to do with the popularity discussion at hand, since that's about the entire manga rather than specific characters.

Also I wasn't talking about manga's in MB position I'm saying MB's position is rare as most other implied or actual MC change don't occur that why, though typically The current MC is popular anyway, which is why people generally don't like MC changes. Though I could probably see a MC change to any character that isn't Medaka and is reasonably popular recieved warmly (though this is an opinion nota fact I obviously have no idea but that's the sense I'm getting).
All I can say about that is I think it'd be a lot more controversial over in Japan than over here.


Quote:
I think my issue wa it was pretty much Aijimu wins total victory, next chapter Medaka convinces a godlike existence in the space of a chapter that her theory was wrong (when in fact she was right...). Despite the fact this whole arc was supposed to decronstructive how much of a horrible Mary Sue she is. And I'm just supposed to accept that?

Why what kinda moron you supposed to me for (and I'd guess Nisio expected that reaction or at least I hope he did there's no way a decent proportion of the readerbase wouldn't).

I think the worst thing was that in the preceedng arc it had all his hype on focusing on a fresh set of more minor characters in a serious arc, they all get trolled and we spend the rest of the arc watching Medaka win predictably the final "fight" with no real help.
Wasn't part of this conversation so I'm just offering my opinion here, but I think the point of Medaka convincing Ajimu not to commit suicide and to continue living was moreso to make a thematic point (i.e. that no matter how much you despair, it's hard to want to give up living) than to paint Medaka as a Mary Sue. It was just another instance in Nishio's overall theme of humanizing 'monstrous' or 'inhuman' characters, as all Ajimu wanted was a chance to live like everyone else.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2013-03-04, 11:58   Link #12596
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There is no such thing as 'side-character fans' who just like every character except Medaka. There are basically only three characters in Medaka Box who are eligible to receive any consistently large amount of focus, and they are Medaka, Zenkichi, and Kumagawa. If people are complaining about Medaka's screentime, then they are either Zenkichi fans or Kumagawa fans foremost, else they wouldn't be able to justify keeping up with the manga in the first place. By contrast, the smaller group who are not fans of any character and just have a general interest in Medaka Box would have no reason to hate Medaka at the exclusion of others because her character development is perfectly sufficient and legitimate to justify her position in the story.
That's not it.

It's the fact that even people who aren't hardcore Zenkichi or Kumagawa fans have become sick of the character, hence her apparent unpopularity, but that dosen't change the fact that hardcore Zen/kuma fans like myself also have acquired such distaste.

She just has that effect on alot of people. Her personality is only really tolerable in small doses, so when she's focused on, there is a general dislike from the fanbase, because, let's be honest here, that time could be used on better characters.

Is that what happens with Zen and Kuma's spotlight?

Sure, but fortunately, they definitely don't produce the same effect as Medaka. Don't ask me how, but the effect is there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
(There might be a minor faction who could legitimately say that they have been reading (recently) for Ajimu, but that is only on account of the focus she's recieved due to the recentness of her introduction/character arc. Ultimately Ajimu has never been a main character on the level of Medaka, Kumagawa, or Zenkichi.)

(The Naze case is a similar situation, that was Biglobe poll about people's favourite anime character where she had focus. There's nobody who actually reads Medaka Box just for Naze.)
It's kinda naive to say that someone is not going to mind their favorite character getting little spotlight, wouldn't you say? One of Medaka Box's strenghts has always been in it's side-characters, and Nishio has tried to temper them as much as possible. People might get dissapointed when their expectations don't meet.
Maybe I've misworded, but the fact that such favorites get shafted like that is a pretty big reason for someone to dislike the protagonist.

Why does Zen's and Kuma's spotlight not produce the same effect?

Well, that's anyone's guess. Maybe they're just more popular in general than you'd think.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Likely none of this was particularly planned by Nishio, particularly the thing about Akune. Although certainly, with regards to that specific period in the manga (Not Equals arc), you could make the argument that for a time Medaka was deliberately made to be unlikeable, but then there is a clear contrast of her characterization there with everything afterwards.
This is also a big part of the problem.

Because, to be honest, if people can't really feel for the character's plight, they're not going to like him/her, and that seems to be somewhat what happened to Medaka's.

All as planned, right?

I doubt Nishio couldn't make his mainstream audience like the Medaka character if he wanted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi
I think my issue wa it was pretty much Aijimu wins total victory, next chapter Medaka convinces a godlike existence in the space of a chapter that her theory was wrong (when in fact she was right...). Despite the fact this whole arc was supposed to decronstructive how much of a horrible Mary Sue she is. And I'm just supposed to accept that?

Why what kinda moron you supposed to me for (and I'd guess Nisio expected that reaction or at least I hope he did there's no way a decent proportion of the readerbase wouldn't).

I think the worst thing was that in the preceedng arc it had all his hype on focusing on a fresh set of more minor characters in a serious arc, they all get trolled and we spend the rest of the arc watching Medaka win predictably the final "fight" with no real help.
Never really thought of it that way, but I suppose you have a point.
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Old 2013-03-04, 12:25   Link #12597
kenjtr
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Its really funny how medaka always steal zenkichis spotlight lol she just cant handle zenkichi being higher then him
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Old 2013-03-04, 12:34   Link #12598
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I think my issue wa it was pretty much Aijimu wins total victory, next chapter Medaka convinces a godlike existence in the space of a chapter that her theory was wrong (when in fact she was right...). Despite the fact this whole arc was supposed to decronstructive how much of a horrible Mary Sue she is. And I'm just supposed to accept that?

Why what kinda moron you supposed to me for (and I'd guess Nisio expected that reaction or at least I hope he did there's no way a decent proportion of the readerbase wouldn't).
I'm pretty sure you missed the point of that. Firstly, Ajimu wasn't right, at least not from the perspective of the characters in Medaka Box. Obviously we readers know they're really in a manga but the characters don't, that was kinda the point. As for stopping her, it had to be Medaka, since she was the only one fast enough to reach her, and she was the only one that figured Ajimu out, since she was practically the only one Ajimu hadn't completely bamboozeled.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
That's not it.

It's the fact that even people who aren't hardcore Zenkichi or Kumagawa fans have become sick of the character, hence her apparent unpopularity, but that dosen't change the fact that hardcore Zen/kuma fans like myself also have acquired such distaste.

She just has that effect on alot of people. Her personality is only really tolerable in small doses, so when she's focused on, there is a general dislike from the fanbase, because, let's be honest here, that time could be used on better characters.
You keep coming out with the idea that there is some huge amount of Medaka haters out there, when it's really just a vocal minority.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2013-03-04 at 12:52.
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Old 2013-03-04, 12:38   Link #12599
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
That's not it.

It's the fact that even people who aren't hardcore Zenkichi or Kumagawa fans have become sick of the character, hence her apparent unpopularity, but that dosen't change the fact that hardcore Zen/kuma fans like myself also have acquired such distaste.
I don't really see that? Are there any actual Medaka Box fans who do not like at least one of Medaka, Zenkichi, or Kumagawa?

Quote:
She just has that effect on alot of people. Her personality is only really tolerable in small doses, so when she's focused on, there is a general dislike from the fanbase, because, let's be honest here, that time could be used on better characters.
It seems rather more like some people just can't stand any Medaka at all. In which case my feelings are that it is obvious they're approaching Medaka Box improperly.

Quote:
Is that what happens with Zen and Kuma's spotlight?

Sure, but fortunately, they definitely don't produce the same effect as Medaka. Don't ask me how, but the effect is there.
If you don't have any actual plausible explanation for why Zenkichi and Kumagawa's screentime would be treated differently, I can't really take that claim seriously, because I haven't seen anything aside from circumstantial evidence (you saying there are people who feel that way).

Quote:
It's kinda naive to say that someone is not going to mind their favorite character getting little spotlight, wouldn't you say? One of Medaka Box's strenghts has always been in it's side-characters, and Nishio has tried to temper them as much as possible. People might get dissapointed when their expectations don't meet.
Maybe I've misworded, but the fact that such favorites get shafted like that is a pretty big reason for someone to dislike the protagonist.

Why does Zen's and Kuma's spotlight not produce the same effect?

Well, that's anyone's guess. Maybe they're just more popular in general than you'd think.
Certainly, there are people like Koga fans, or Nabeshima or Unzen fans, who wish some characters would get more screentime. However, I don't really see how that translates into hate for Medaka or any other character. Certainly I've never witnessed anybody expressing this line of reasoning myself. Generally the only type of fan who I've seen have a significant problem with Medaka's screentime are only Zenkichi fans.

If you're a Zenkichi fan and not a Medaka fan, then obviously you're going to want Zenkichi to displace her. That's simple bias, not anything inherently wrong about Medaka's character.

Solely Kumagawa fans are less likely to make a fuss because 1 - they've decreased in number, since despite still being a major character he's ultimately third behind Medaka and Zenkichi in terms of importance to the storyline; and 2 - over in Japan, there's a lot of Kumagawa-exclusive material like the LNs and audio dramas with him as a main character.

Quote:
This is also a big part of the problem.

Because, to be honest, if people can't really feel for the character's plight, they're not going to like him/her, and that seems to be somewhat what happened to Medaka's.

All as planned, right?

I doubt Nishio couldn't make his mainstream audience like the Medaka character if he wanted to.
I doubt that Medaka is actually as unpopular over in Japan as the western fanbase keeps thinking she is. While she is probably not a huge draw for fandom to read the manga, she is probably no less than Zenkichi is, given that Zenkichi's numbers in the third popularity poll still did not even match up to Medaka's in the second.

Nishio uses Kumagawa for the popularity, and Medaka for the actual storytelling. It's not like you write a story just for popularity, you do it to express things which you want to communicate personally, and for the record I feel like Medaka Box is actually the most direct and fascinating exploration of Nishio's usual themes of "genius", "ability", and "humanity" of any of his works I've read thus far (admittedly limited to just stuff which has been translated into English, though).
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Old 2013-03-04, 12:57   Link #12600
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I'm pretty sure you missed the point of that. Firstly, Ajimu wasn't right, at least not from the perspective of the characters in Medaka Box. Obviously we readers know they're really in a manga but the characters don't, that was kinda the point. As for stopping her, it had to be Medaka, since she was the only one fast enough to reach her, and she was the only one that figured Ajimu out, since she was practically the only one Ajimu hadn't completely bamboozeled.


Your also ignoring that Aijimu existed before the creation of the universe and had attempting to disprove this fact almost the entire time, so it doesn't matter what they think. It's like taking the answer of a 2 year old over a 40 year old man and then multiply it by an insane degree. It doesn't make any sense. Also issue of dispelling a belief someone has held (and tried to disprove) for several thousand years/millions in a min is moronic. i'm sorry but it's one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. And there's no logi youc use can use to make it sound logical, because it isn't. Even if Aijimu was deluding herself in fantasy, for her to have held it for that long means that logical reasoning would reach her in that space of time anyway. It's hard enough to make someone part with a belief they've had for a few mins let alone thousands of years. And the logic Medaka provides wuld be nothing to the logic Aijimu already has. (She has met and fought MC before).
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