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Old 2013-03-04, 13:21   Link #12601
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Your also ignoring that Aijimu existed before the creation of the universe and had attempting to disprove this fact almost the entire time, so it doesn't matter what they think. It's like taking the answer of a 2 year old over a 40 year old man and then multiply it by an insane degree. It doesn't make any sense. Also issue of dispelling a belief someone has held (and tried to disprove) for several thousand years/millions in a min is moronic. i'm sorry but it's one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. And there's no logi youc use can use to make it sound logical, because it isn't. Even if Aijimu was deluding herself in fantasy, for her to have held it for that long means that logical reasoning would reach her in that space of time anyway. It's hard enough to make someone part with a belief they've had for a few mins let alone thousands of years. And the logic Medaka provides wuld be nothing to the logic Aijimu already has. (She has met and fought MC before).
I agree with this. Which is why I say that the point of the climax to the Not Equals arc is not really about who is right (which Ajimu obviously is, IMO) but about what Ajimu actually wanted. Remember, Ajimu even initially intended/wanted for her plan to fail. She simply gave up because she thought she had no chance of living in a world which didn't bend over for her. Medaka promising Ajimu that she wouldn't let Ajimu die simply gave Ajimu some of the grounding she needed, a minor spark of hope to convince her that she had a reason to continue living, which she wanted to do in the first place.
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Old 2013-03-04, 13:21   Link #12602
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You keep coming out with the idea that there is some huge amount of Medaka haters out there, when it's really just a vocal minority.
You have your version, we have ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
It seems rather more like some people just can't stand any Medaka at all.
Very possible. After all, no-one likes to read a story about an unlikeable character. She probably just dosen't appeal to the general taste as much as her supporting cast, which is what I thought was it all along. The thing is, I fully believe that was intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
If you don't have any actual plausible explanation for why Zenkichi and Kumagawa's screentime would be treated differently, I can't really take that claim seriously, because I haven't seen anything aside from circumstantial evidence
I'm not trying to prove anything to you, I'm just telling you that that's an effect that happens.

I'm explaining one hypothesis from personal observation, you're free to dismiss anything I say, since all I was even arguing anyway was with personal observations on the internet(because, really, what else is there to even bring). I don't take this as serious as you'd think, sorry.

However, as for what you said: have you ever considered that Zen and Kuma are simply more liked/enjoyed than Medaka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
Snip
And really, the above is all that's needed to say.

Medaka just dosen't really appeal as a character to the fanbase's tastes, internationally, and now, kinda in japan.

Which begs the question if this was Nishio's intention all along. Because use of that has inevitably made the side-characters seem more interesting and dynamic.
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Old 2013-03-04, 13:28   Link #12603
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Your also ignoring that Aijimu existed before the creation of the universe and had attempting to disprove this fact almost the entire time, so it doesn't matter what they think. It's like taking the answer of a 2 year old over a 40 year old man and then multiply it by an insane degree. It doesn't make any sense.
This is remarkably stupid. People should just swallow Ajimu's idea that the world is fictional because she lived a long time? Obviously no one is going to do that, they're just going to think she's insane (which she kinda was), since she has no objective proof.

Quote:
Also issue of dispelling a belief someone has held (and tried to disprove) for several thousand years/millions in a min is moronic. i'm sorry but it's one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. And there's no logi youc use can use to make it sound logical, because it isn't.
You're missing the point. The reason Medaka got through to her is because she's the only one who figured out what Ajimu was thinking, even though she made it blatantly obvious to everyone.

Quote:
Even if Aijimu was deluding herself in fantasy, for her to have held it for that long means that logical reasoning would reach her in that space of time anyway. It's hard enough to make someone part with a belief they've had for a few mins let alone thousands of years. And the logic Medaka provides wuld be nothing to the logic Aijimu already has. (She has met and fought MC before).
The thing with being deluded is that logic can't fix it, not when you're as OP as Ajimu and your delusion can't be disproved.Medaka got through to her with emotions not logic.
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Old 2013-03-04, 13:49   Link #12604
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Very possible. After all, no-one likes to read a story about an unlikeable character. She probably just dosen't appeal to the general taste as much as her supporting cast, which is what I thought was it all along. The thing is, I fully believe that was intentional.
Certainly, Medaka is not really designed to be appealing to the general (shounen) taste. However, the question is why do you think that is an audience Nishio is seriously pursuing in the first place?

Quote:
However, as for what you said: have you ever considered that Zen and Kuma are simply more liked/enjoyed than Medaka?
I don't think there's any way to quantify that Zenkichi is more liked or enjoyed than Medaka, particularly in the region which actually matters, Japan. Even by the most recent popularity poll, Zenkichi only recieved ~850 votes, less than what Medaka had in both of the previous popularity polls. Furthermore, with vote counts of about ~10,000 the popularity polls themselves cannot represent even a 10th of the Medaka Box volume-buying population.

That is not even speaking of my personal experience, from which I can say that Zenkichi also has a semi-vocal hatebase which dislikes his screentime and looks down on his contributions to the story, which could also be interpreted as 'intentional' on Nishio's part. Although Kumagawa's popularity is undeniable (and completely justified, in my opinion; however, in the end he can do just fine as the protagonist of popular side-stories rather than taking over the main manga), I do not really see any validation for the idea that Zenkichi would make for a more popular main character than Medaka.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:25   Link #12605
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
This is remarkably stupid. People should just swallow Ajimu's idea that the world is fictional because she lived a long time? Obviously no one is going to do that, they're just going to think she's insane (which she kinda was), since she has no objective proof.



You're missing the point. The reason Medaka got through to her is because she's the only one who figured out what Ajimu was thinking, even though she made it blatantly obvious to everyone.



The thing with being deluded is that logic can't fix it, not when you're as OP as Ajimu and your delusion can't be disproved.Medaka got through to her with emotions not logic.
No your missing the point I said nothing about other people believing her I talking about her not being swayed by other people which by any metric of real world logic she shouldn't be (not too long ago people were the same as the trash on the floor in comparison to her),. Again most of the rest of your arguement is about as illogical as the rest of the crap you usually read in shounens. In the space of a minute you will not be able to convince someone against something they've believed and challenged themselves on their entire life without something substantial and e.g indisputable proof which Medaka didn't have and even then it's far from a sure thing. Feelings aren't conveyed in a minute, feelings are conveyed over a long period of time. because typically they can change extremely easily.

Not in this world does shit work like that. Forums are like this are evidence enough, you won't be able to convince a scientist whose entire life has led him to one understanding that it's wrong based on feelings, same with, religious people, same with ideologies same with freaking ANYTHING. The mere fact I'm even having an arguement with you on this is a testament to this fact. It's moronic to the highest degree. Humans are stubborn creatures, it's because of this wars are waged, lives are lost and people are capable of doing such terrifying attrocities to each other. It's simply how the world works.

It's silly even by manga logic, and laughable when compared to the real world.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-04 at 14:45.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:50   Link #12606
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
No your missing the point I said nothing about other people believing her I talking about her not being swayed by other people which by any metric of real world logic she shouldn't be (not too long ago people were the same as the trash on the floor in comparison to her),. Again most of the rest of your arguement is about as illogical as the rest of the crap you usually read in shounens. In the space of a minute you will not be able to convince someone against something they've believed and challenged themselves on their entire life without something substantial and e.g indisputable proof which Medaka didn't have and even then it's far from a sure thing. Feelings aren't conveyed in a minute, feelings are conveyed over a long period of time. Typically they can change extremely easily.

Not in this world does shit work like that. Forums are like this are evidence enough, you won't be able to convince a scientist whose entire life has led him to one understanding that it's wrong based on feelings, same with, religious people, same with ideologies same with freaking ANYTHING. The mere fact I'm even having an arguement with you on this is a testament to this fact. It's moronic to the highest degree. Humans are stubborn creatures, it's because of this wars are waged, lives are lost and people are capable of doing such terrifying attrocities to each other. It's simply how the world works.

It's silly even by manga logic, and laughable when compared to the real world.
Why do you think Ajimu should have been stubborn about trying to die? You're right, humans are stubborn, and that certainly applies to Ajimu, but in the complete opposite way of what would help your argument. Ajimu spent 3,402,193,822,311 years searching for a reason to stay alive; if she's spent that long, why should she be against continuing to do so? If we can understand anything about Ajimu from her history and motivation, it's that she did not want to believe that her life was just a meaningless passage through the fictional manga world of Medaka Box.

If the entire time Ajimu was hoping that Medaka would overcome her schemes and win, don't you think that Medaka was Ajimu's hope in the first place? If so, then why do you believe Ajimu should have refused Medaka then, when what Medaka was saying was essentially what Ajimu was hoping for from the start?
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:53   Link #12607
telamont
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Meh I suppose you enjoy them anti-climatic battles and deus ex machina's. Bah different strokes for different folks. Though Medaka is a fairly common character type in shounens, probably seen her character type several times and they were mostly identical though thats mostly my opinion. Not so much in shounen jump, but I've seen many a story where boy falls in love with "perfect" strong girl who loves to to fight. TBF actually I'm quite sick of that story due to how common it is, usually because the male lead is pathetic as shit, and it seems impossible for the author to do two reasonably good main characters. That or he goes out of his way to make the female character a bit too much of a mary sue.
Was going to respond, but Sol Falling already has is mostly covered, and probably much more comprehensively and eloquently than I'd ever manage.

So I'll just ask, what kind of a manga are you looking for?

How I read it, the current Medaka Box is, at its core, a manga exploring the themes of genius and distinction; and how, while normal people put geniuses on a pedestal, respecting them, envying them, maybe even adoring them, they also unintentionally isolate them with such an attitude. Of course, it works both ways. Because of their exceptional ability, because they're "different ", the geniuses in question also have problems understanding "the common man."

To sum it up, I read Medaka Box as a story about Medaka's struggles to overcome that barrier and simply connect to the people around her. This is complemented by a crazy cast of characters, zany fourth wall breaking, insane battles and merciless trolling of common shonen tropes.

But when all is said and done, no matter how utterly awesome I find Kumagawa and Ajimu and wish they had more screen time, they, along with the rest of the side characters (well, except for Zen, since bland spice is kind of an oxymoron; he's err... gravy, yea ) are only the spices that give this story flavor. They have a vital part to be sure, but Medaka is firmly the "main ingredient", so to speak.

She's the one holding it all together. Her journey to connect to everyday people is what drives her. There's no grandiose goal, no world to save. It's basically a slice of life story, on acid. No matter how outrageous her opponents are, no matter how crazy the developments, Nisio can just handwave it away as "just the everyday life of a genius." Because Medaka's just that out there. And it's precisely because she's so that the wall she has to climb (connecting with "regular" people) is so high. That's her driving conflict. And, for me, it works.

Usually, "geniuses" in shonen manga are either the rival or the enemy, cardboard figures designed mainly for the protagonist to defeat or surpass, while shouting that "Hard work always defeats genius!!! :" or something equally hackneyed. That or they'll be the "magical girlfriend" for the protagonist to chase after and make fall for him, after which their life will revolve around him. In a word, in shonen manga, geniuses mostly only have worth as a notch under the protagonist's belt. Which is why I find Medaka Box, with its attempt to step into the heads of one of those so called geniuses and say "Hey, geniuses are people too, with their own sets of problems, you know?" while maintaining a shonen atmosphere to be interesting. This is also why I find Medaka to be a new and fascinating type of shonen main character.

As a side note, the way I see it, without Medaka, and the absolute freedom that her OPedness gives Niso, there most probably wouldn't be a Kumagawa or an Ajimu. So, as fans of those particular two, I have nothing to complain about.

But obviously, with the way you keep clamoring for a main character change, you do not like this story. So I gotta ask, why are you reading Medaka Box? What type of story are you looking for, with Zenkichi as the main character? And aren't there already an ocean of them out there, with Zenkichi being as generic, or "classic" if you'd prefer (nice, passionate, kinda goofy "ordinary" guy who works hard; the basic shonen jump template), as it gets? Only thing that sets him apart from others is that unlike them, the plot does not go out of its way to make him succeed. I'm honestly curious here.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:58   Link #12608
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Why do you think Ajimu should have been stubborn about trying to die? You're right, humans are stubborn, and that certainly applies to Ajimu, but in the complete opposite way of what would help your argument. Ajimu spent 3,402,193,822,311 years searching for a reason to stay alive; if she's spent that long, why should she be against continuing to do so? If we can understand anything about Ajimu from her history and motivation, it's that she did not want to believe that her life was just a meaningless passage through the fictional manga world of Medaka Box.

If the entire time Ajimu was hoping that Medaka would overcome her schemes and win, don't you think that Medaka was Ajimu's hope in the first place? If so, then why do you believe Ajimu should have refused Medaka then, when what Medaka was saying was essentially what Ajimu was hoping for from the start?
I don't care about her trying to die trying to die wasn't part of her belief she could have kept the belief and still lived or better yet taken a period of time to see if Medaka could ultmately prove her wrong by continuing to live not accept shit hook line and sinker inside that minute as if the writer spent all of two mins on the exchange. Medaka converted her inside that minute and that's complete bullshit you know I know it. It screams of terrible writing, which something that occasionals throws itself at this series (at least according to me and most real world logic of human personalities).

Quote:
Originally Posted by telamont View Post
Was going to respond, but Sol Falling already has is mostly covered, and probably much more comprehensively and eloquently than I'd ever manage.

So I'll just ask, what kind of a manga are you looking for?

How I read it, the current Medaka Box is, at its core, a manga exploring the themes of genius and distinction; and how, while normal people put geniuses on a pedestal, respecting them, envying them, maybe even adoring them, they also unintentionally isolate them with such an attitude. Of course, it works both ways. Because of their exceptional ability, because they're "different ", the geniuses in question also have problems understanding "the common man."

To sum it up, I read Medaka Box as a story about Medaka's struggles to overcome that barrier and simply connect to the people around her. This is complemented by a crazy cast of characters, zany fourth wall breaking, insane battles and merciless trolling of common shonen tropes.

But when all is said and done, no matter how utterly awesome I find Kumagawa and Ajimu and wish they had more screen time, they, along with the rest of the side characters (well, except for Zen, since bland spice is kind of an oxymoron; he's err... gravy, yea ) are only the spices that give this story flavor. They have a vital part to be sure, but Medaka is firmly the "main ingredient", so to speak.

She's the one holding it all together. Her journey to connect to everyday people is what drives her. There's no grandiose goal, no world to save. It's basically a slice of life story, on acid. No matter how outrageous her opponents are, no matter how crazy the developments, Nisio can just handwave it away as "just the everyday life of a genius." Because Medaka's just that out there. And it's precisely because she's so that the wall she has to climb (connecting with "regular" people) is so high. That's her driving conflict. And, for me, it works.

Usually, "geniuses" in shonen manga are either the rival or the enemy, cardboard figures designed mainly for the protagonist to defeat or surpass, while shouting that "Hard work always defeats genius!!! :" or something equally hackneyed. That or they'll be the "magical girlfriend" for the protagonist to chase after and make fall for him, after which their life will revolve around him. In a word, in shonen manga, geniuses mostly only have worth as a notch under the protagonist's belt. Which is why I find Medaka Box, with its attempt to step into the heads of one of those so called geniuses and say "Hey, geniuses are people too, with their own sets of problems, you know?" while maintaining a shonen atmosphere to be interesting. This is also why I find Medaka to be a new and fascinating type of shonen main character.

As a side note, the way I see it, without Medaka, and the absolute freedom that her OPedness gives Niso, there most probably wouldn't be a Kumagawa or an Ajimu. So, as fans of those particular two, I have nothing to complain about.

But obviously, with the way you keep clamoring for a main character change, you do not like this story. So I gotta ask, why are you reading Medaka Box? What type of story are you looking for, with Zenkichi as the main character? And aren't there already an ocean of them out there, with Zenkichi being as generic, or "classic" if you'd prefer (nice, passionate, kinda goofy "ordinary" guy who works hard; the basic shonen jump template), as it gets? Only thing that sets him apart from others is that unlike them, the plot does not go out of its way to make him succeed. I'm honestly curious here.
Honestly seems like a rather silly question, MC are often disliked in manga's people read them anyway because they like certain characters and are occasionally entertained news at 11. You don't have to like every part of the manga to continue reading it, Bleach is terrible I still read because it takes all of less than a minute to read and can on the rare occasion can be entertaining. There's also personal investment due to following a story for so long.

Honestly I'm simply pointing out reasons that are the common sentiment of most western readers I've come acros. Is it really all that surprising?

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-04 at 15:11.
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Old 2013-03-04, 15:20   Link #12609
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I don't care about her trying to die trying to die wasn't part of her belief she could have kept the belief and still lived or better yet taken a period of time to see if Medaka could ultmately prove her wrong by continuing to live not accept shit hook line and sinker inside that minute as if the writer spent all of two mins on the exchange. Medaka converted her inside that minute and that's complete bullshit you know I know it. It screams of terrible writing, which something that occasionals throws itself at this series (at least according to me and most real world logic of human personalities).
This is a newsflash to me. I never saw any indication in the manga that Ajimu gave up on the idea that she was living inside a manga reality. In fact, considering that her awareness/perception of such a reality seems to be the very source of her powers, I find it hard to believe that such a thing is even possible. Ajimu fundamentally perceives her universe in the same way we do; she pretty much only sees the ink, the panels, the textboxes, etc. She can even flip through the pages to find out the developments of the future. Given that her very perception tells her directly what her world is really like, it is nonsensical to say that Medaka managed to convince her otherwise. The only thing which Medaka managed to convince of Ajimu is not to kill herself and end the manga.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2013-03-04, 15:35   Link #12610
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is a newsflash to me. I never saw any indication in the manga that Ajimu gave up on the idea that she was living inside a manga reality. In fact, considering that her awareness/perception of such a reality seems to be the very source of her powers, I find it hard to believe that such a thing is even possible. Ajimu fundamentally perceives her universe in the same way we do; she pretty much only sees the ink, the panels, the textboxes, etc. She can even flip through the pages to find out the developments of the future. Given that her very perception tells her directly what her world is really like, it is nonsensical to say that Medaka managed to convince her otherwise. The only thing which Medaka managed to convince of Ajimu is not to kill herself and end the manga.
Yeah the fact the Aijimu never again talks about characters as manga characters (which is the most obvious evidence) instantly believes what Medaka said doesn't dispute any of it and never speaks of it again points to the contrary. Notice how it isn't even brought up past that chapter by any character or even alluded to, even with her "death".

It's totally not like Medaka converted her in typical Shounen fashion in the chapter it occurred that's totally not what happened at all. As far as conversion shit goes in shounens the author couldn't have made it more blatant. She even made a joke about her name and being relieved because totally believed all the shit Medaka just said.
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Old 2013-03-04, 16:07   Link #12611
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Yeah the fact the Aijimu never again talks about characters as manga characters (which is the most obvious evidence) instantly believes what Medaka said doesn't dispute any of it and never speaks of it again points to the contrary. Notice how it isn't even brought up past that chapter by any character or even alluded to, even with her "death".

It's totally not like Medaka converted her in typical Shounen fashion in the chapter it occurred that's totally not what happened at all. As far as conversion shit goes in shounens the author couldn't have made it more blatant. She even made a joke about her name and being relieved because totally believed all the shit Medaka just said.
Just because Ajimu hasn't explicitly mentioned it doesn't mean she's changed her perspective? In fact, the story did pretty much mentioned that Ajimu is still able to see the manga the same way when it talked about how Ajimu is able to see into the future of the story by "flipping pages like skipping to the end of a novel". The entire basis of Ajimu's character is that she can directly percieve everything in the story as if she were a reader like us in the real world, that doesn't change no matter who is giving their opinion to her.

Really I cannot understand this, getting angry over an assumption which you have never confirmed.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2013-03-04, 17:11   Link #12612
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Just because Ajimu hasn't explicitly mentioned it doesn't mean she's changed her perspective? In fact, the story did pretty much mentioned that Ajimu is still able to see the manga the same way when it talked about how Ajimu is able to see into the future of the story by "flipping pages like skipping to the end of a novel". The entire basis of Ajimu's character is that she can directly percieve everything in the story as if she were a reader like us in the real world, that doesn't change no matter who is giving their opinion to her.

Really I cannot understand this, getting angry over an assumption which you have never confirmed.
It was fairly obvious and badly done. My intelligience was insulted by it (and that's the most annoying thing a shounen author can do). I'm sorry if I unable to do the mental loop holes required to see that scenario go down as ok. But I call things bullshit when I see them and that was most certainly bullshit. (Also your quote doesn't imply that at all, Aijimu was a near omnipotent being that had lived since the begining of the universe of course she was able to predict the future to a reasonble degree, that doesn't imply she believed the world was manga when the end of her fight with Medaka implied the exact opposite).

It's bad enough that Aijimu couldn't even put a cognitive arguement against Medaka in spite of her personality and the fact she had been researching and trying to disprove this shit for thousands of years. You expect me to believe that someone of Aijimu's personality, believed something to the point where she'd kill herself over that belief (despite not wanting to) could not construct and arguement that even defended that belief. Even if what someone says is completely wrong if they actually believe in it they can actually put up an arguement in there defence she couldn't even do that. The entire chapter was facepalm worthy.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-04 at 17:26.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:55   Link #12613
chidorimen
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Holy walls of text, Batman. You people make Nisio proud.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:56   Link #12614
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
It was fairly obvious and badly done. My intelligience was insulted by it (and that's the most annoying thing a shounen author can do). I'm sorry if I unable to do the mental loop holes required to see that scenario go down as ok. But I call things bullshit when I see them and that was most certainly bullshit. (Also your quote doesn't imply that at all, Aijimu was a near omnipotent being that had lived since the begining of the universe of course she was able to predict the future to a reasonble degree, that doesn't imply she believed the world was manga when the end of her fight with Medaka implied the exact opposite).

It's bad enough that Aijimu couldn't even put a cognitive arguement against Medaka in spite of her personality and the fact she had been researching and trying to disprove this shit for thousands of years. You expect me to believe that someone of Aijimu's personality, believed something to the point where she'd kill herself over that belief (despite not wanting to) could not construct and arguement that even defended that belief. Even if what someone says is completely wrong if they actually believe in it they can actually put up an arguement in there defence she couldn't even do that. The entire chapter was facepalm worthy.
Ajimu's reasoning for killing herself was that there was nothing in her world which was impossible for her, not because her world is actually a manga. Ajimu seeing the Medaka Box world as a manga is not a question of "believing" it or not, she directly sees her world as a manga as demonstrated when Zenkichi used Parasite Seeing on her. It's not something which can be changed by logic or someone's argument.

The only thing which Medaka proposed to Anshin'in and Anshin'in accepted was that Medaka would make killing herself 'impossible' for her. Anything else said about 'Medaka Box not really being a manga' is completely irrelevant, because it was impossible for Medaka to know what Ajimu perceived anyway. However, we as readers know that Ajimu can do direct things like having knowledge of the presence of colour pages, the current number of volumes in the series, or even directly speaking to the audience ("I'll end the manga before the anime begins," etc.) so the Medaka Box universe being a manga is simply basic fact for Ajimu, not a "belief" which can be changed or challenged. There is honestly zero indication at all in the story that Ajimu no longer sees her world as a manga anymore. She still does, it's not even possible for her to do otherwise.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:57   Link #12615
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by chidorimen View Post
Holy walls of text, Batman. You people make Nisio proud.
It's pretty normal in this thread.
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Old 2013-03-04, 22:26   Link #12616
telamont
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is a newsflash to me. I never saw any indication in the manga that Ajimu gave up on the idea that she was living inside a manga reality. In fact, considering that her awareness/perception of such a reality seems to be the very source of her powers, I find it hard to believe that such a thing is even possible. Ajimu fundamentally perceives her universe in the same way we do; she pretty much only sees the ink, the panels, the textboxes, etc. She can even flip through the pages to find out the developments of the future. Given that her very perception tells her directly what her world is really like, it is nonsensical to say that Medaka managed to convince her otherwise. The only thing which Medaka managed to convince of Ajimu is not to kill herself and end the manga.
I agree. I never saw any indication either. Her very next words were "Life is difficult to stop, just like a weekly serialization." More recently, it's been stated that Ajimu lives her life like a reader trying her best not to spoil herself of the next plot twist. So, no; being the all knowing and omnipotent being that she is, she definitely still views her reality as the manga that it is.

All I got from the scene of her "defeat" was that she finally found her impossibility. Does not matter if Medaka lost, she was still the main character. The manga was not ending. Ajimu could not end it. And she did not really want to die in the first place, as evidenced by her searching so desperately for a reason to live. All Medaka did was give her a little nudge, I don't see what the big deal is.

Hey, even if she's just a character in a manga, at least, according to Medaka, it's an EPIC manga right? Can't be all that bad.
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Old 2013-03-05, 03:36   Link #12617
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Ajimu's reasoning for killing herself was that there was nothing in her world which was impossible for her, not because her world is actually a manga. Ajimu seeing the Medaka Box world as a manga is not a question of "believing" it or not, she directly sees her world as a manga as demonstrated when Zenkichi used Parasite Seeing on her. It's not something which can be changed by logic or someone's argument.

The only thing which Medaka proposed to Anshin'in and Anshin'in accepted was that Medaka would make killing herself 'impossible' for her. Anything else said about 'Medaka Box not really being a manga' is completely irrelevant, because it was impossible for Medaka to know what Ajimu perceived anyway. However, we as readers know that Ajimu can do direct things like having knowledge of the presence of colour pages, the current number of volumes in the series, or even directly speaking to the audience ("I'll end the manga before the anime begins," etc.) so the Medaka Box universe being a manga is simply basic fact for Ajimu, not a "belief" which can be changed or challenged. There is honestly zero indication at all in the story that Ajimu no longer sees her world as a manga anymore. She still does, it's not even possible for her to do otherwise.
That doesn't really answer the questions are the major issues with that chapter. I could retort but it's not going to get us anywhere at this point.

Though I will say the the nothing is impossible for her as the sole reason why she wanted to kill herself is a rather silly arguement. Things were impossible for Aijimu she still personally cannot defeat main characters (because she believed the world is manga as an answer to this) We're talking about Medaka here who was converting her one of the few people where almost nothing in the world is impossible for her. Aijimu couldn't even use this fact in an arguement against her.

This is going to randomly elogated and I can't be bothered pointing out all the the many issues of that scene while you can't accept that the scene had many issues because it did, and the very very, least it was rushed as shit, and at the worst was absolute bullshit, though this arguement will end longer the arguement that you would have at least expected to occur in that chapter. So i'm not going to bother rguing back anymore.

I'm sorry if it's so very easy to point out flaws with that chapter but it was a very flawed chapter...
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Old 2013-03-05, 08:23   Link #12618
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Alright. Spoiler got leaked, and here's the answer to everyone's question
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-03-05, 08:29   Link #12619
Libros
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Alright. Spoiler got leaked, and here's the answer to everyone's question
Spoiler:
Spoiler for ??:
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Old 2013-03-05, 08:31   Link #12620
silvercover
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^^I disliked that chapter too. but I can point out a few holes in your argument by saying that its very likely no one had the guts to actually say it to ajimu nor was anyone probably able to know ajimu's beliefs. kumagawa may have gotten a hint if he got stuck with her a bit more, zenkichi too if he wasnt too focused on defeating medaka.
its weak but works yeah...
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