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Old 2013-03-05, 11:05   Link #12641
Alpha Knight
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It was again unpredictable. But I'll have to hold back my judgement till I read the chapter.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:07   Link #12642
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
It was again unpredictable.
No better way to put it
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:08   Link #12643
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
It was again unpredictable. But I'll have to hold back my judgement till I read the chapter.

Spoiler for spoiler:
What do you mean Kumagawa never wins a fight, Kumagawas wins plenty of fights, his schtick is basically i don't consider those fights as wins (when they really are) so they don't count. It'll simply now be of case of when he wins of fight he won't say I didn't win again.

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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
No better way to put it
TBF the whole chapter was very predictable, The unpredictableness come from 3 little words I finally win. Oh how easy it is to destroy sour several arcs worth of character development.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:10   Link #12644
RedKey
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Spoiler for spoilers, just in case:

Last edited by RedKey; 2013-03-05 at 11:11. Reason: added spoiler tag
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:17   Link #12645
Wolfenstein
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Spoiler:


It's not that...

It's just that...when you think of Misogi's speech in chapter 88, that grand speech...you want an actually satisfactory conclusion to it...

And when you get this "win"...well...

I think you can understand where one would be coming from

Though, I suppose you're right about Hanten. Really strange.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:28   Link #12646
Alpha Knight
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:29   Link #12647
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post

It's not that...

It's just that...when you think of Misogi's speech in chapter 88, that grand speech...you want an actually satisfactory conclusion to it...

And when you get this "win"...well...

I think you can understand where one would be coming from

Though, I suppose you're right about Hanten. Really strange.
TBF it's not like this development prevents Kumagawa from doing those things. It simply means the universe is no longer screwng him over so he's not the underdog anymore. Ruins this specific moment, but doesn't prevent kumagawa from doing important things later on.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:29   Link #12648
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Spoiler for Kurusu-Shirudo:


Can't lie, thought Misogi was above it.

But no. He's a true wild-card, this one.

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Originally Posted by Tenchi
TBF it's not like this development prevents Kumagawa from doing those things. It simply means the universe is no longer screwng him over so he's not the underdog anymore. Ruins this specific moment, but doesn't prevent kumagawa from doing important things later on.
Dude, I loved Misogi because of that speech and the hype of him winning!
Ending it like this makes all his conflict feel kinda...childish, for lack of a better word. All he had to do was that?

Regardless, it's not like he isn't fun even when he's softened. It's just dissapointing, that's all.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:54   Link #12649
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Spoiler for Kurusu-Shirudo:
Oh well......I wonder what Nishio is planning? This series is completely of the wall, we might have a villain that makes Iihiko look like chump by comparison and Medaka basically out trolled God. I wonder if Nishio is poking fun at the escalating power levels trope what with the main character usually becoming the most op thing since sliced bread
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Old 2013-03-05, 12:22   Link #12650
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Oh well......I wonder what Nishio is planning? This series is completely of the wall, we might have a villain that makes Iihiko look like chump by comparison and Medaka basically out trolled God. I wonder if Nishio is poking fun at the escalating power levels trope what with the main character usually becoming the most op thing since sliced bread
Best not to jinx it. Not every plot needs to threaten "The World" after all.
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Old 2013-03-05, 12:25   Link #12651
lordkas
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so this wont be over let the trolling adventure continue and I hope kumagawa wont get a flanderization in his personality
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:29   Link #12652
Sol Falling
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DawnEmperor made a good point a while earlier about what it would actually mean for Kumagawa to "win". As in, what exactly did he want to win at? As has been pointed out fairly often, Kumagawa wins fights all the time. He also has friends, is trusted and supported by people, gets to act cool and show off while trolling enemies, gets to generally enjoy life, everything. On a shallow/surface level, there has been nothing wrong with Kumagawa's life ever since he got converted by Medaka. What exactly has been stopping him all this time from considering himself a winner?

Think back to the Treasure Hunt arc where after the Beautification Committee head crushed Kumagawa's spirit the characters talked about how it seemed like, despite his superficial happiness, Kumagawa was actually "drowning beneath the surface". Despite Kumagawa's apparent general level of happiness, deep inside him he was somehow still harbouring the pain of a true Minus -- the knowledge and despair of knowing he would never achieve what he truly wanted -- never win.

As Ajimu explained through Zenkichi during the True Flask Plan arc, a true victory is only one which feels like one. The thing which determines whether you're a winner or a loser is how satisfied you ultimately feel with the outcome. The reason Kumagawa has remained a Minus up to now is simple: all of those little victories he's gathered, all of the momentary fun, admiration of friends, brief moments of happiness, etc., don't actually mean anything to him, ultimately, deep in his heart. Those moments when he saves others, and then receives gratitude from them, or becomes a trusted/relied-upon member of a circle (i.e. Naked-Apron senpai), are cheap. In the end he is just doing things and being happy for others. Just doing what is "right", and pretending he is satisfied. Fulfilling his role as now a member of the 'good guys', acting as a guardian of the weak, sacrificing himself for others out of empathy, and pretending that he has been truly reformed enough that he can just get along with other people, for the sake of the general good.

Kumagawa's victories, and happiness up to now, has never had anything to do with what he truly, personally wanted, for himself. He has only helped other people out of empathy. The actual question to ask has always been what it would take to actually make Kumagawa, at the most fundamental level, happy himself.


And so y'know, just "beating" Medaka (or anyone) in a fight or a contest could've never been the point. Because in the end, that's just a one time thing. It something which Medaka's enemies, as they get stronger, can or will do over and over again. It's a short-term resolution which, if it represented the end of Kumagawa's story, would truly simply relegate him to a mere side-character who could just be forgotten in the end.

What can be called a victory is only something which Kumagawa himself, personally, truly wants. And it can only be called a victory if he has had to work for it--struggling against impossible odds, put his life and soul on the line for it. It can only be called a victory if he has done something meaningful--proven something which others had doubted, shown something which people would never have imagined.

For Kumagawa, there can be no greater victory than to have actually won over the heart of Medaka. The Medaka who loved every human equally, and who has been tied to Zenkichi since the age of 2. Most importantly, the Medaka who has been the main character of this story. More than the temporary victory of a battle, making Medaka bind herself to him would be the victory of a lifetime. It would be a complete reversal over his fate as a Minus, the "greatest failure that ever lived".


The "victory" Kumagawa achieved in the spoiler is important because it shows he understands Medaka. It also shows she understands him. However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka. It's not the sort of victory which could ever be enough to erase Kumagawa's stigma as a Minus by itself. Kumagawa's journey/story is still continuing. He has not achieved enough to call it the end.
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:43   Link #12653
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
For Kumagawa, there can be no greater victory than to have actually won over the heart of Medaka. The Medaka who loved every human equally, and who has been tied to Zenkichi since the age of 2. Most importantly, the Medaka who has been the main character of this story. More than the temporary victory of a battle, making Medaka bind herself to him would be the victory of a lifetime. It would be a complete reversal over his fate as a Minus, the "greatest failure that ever lived".

The "victory" Kumagawa achieved in the spoiler is important because it shows he understands Medaka. It also shows she understands him. However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka. It's not the sort of victory which could ever be enough to erase Kumagawa's stigma as a Minus by itself. Kumagawa's journey/story is still continuing. He has not achieved enough to call it the end.
I don't know if you're implying he's already won over her heart with these latest chapters or will in the future, but if it's the former, then that is ridiculous; he has not won over her heart, his victory was her returning alive, and I see no point to continue this artificial narrative by creating emotions that simply don't exist between them. Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character, and it's something he would never be successful in anyways. I don't think Kumagawa's naive enough to actually expect to win over her heart, and I don't expect him to continue his search for a "victory", since he seems quite satisfied with this one.
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:45   Link #12654
RedKey
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
However, it can still only be a temporary victory until Kumagawa actually supplants Zenkichi as the person beside Medaka.
That would be quite difficult, as if the spoilers are true, Medaka calls him 'Misogi onii-chan'. Second time he gets brotherzoned.
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:51   Link #12655
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character.
You said it.

Heck, Nishio managed to save Zenkichi from this by making his ultimate victory be him starting to live his own life(well, him and the entire school, as that speech was obviously an analogy of fate/humans and Medaka/Students of Hakoniwa - "We don't need the suggestion box" to "We don't need fate anymore") and disproving Medaka's ridiculous ideology(that he himself had imposed).

Why the fuck did he do this to Misogi?

Where is the man who stole my heart, Nishio?

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:02   Link #12656
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:05   Link #12657
Wolfenstein
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You know, this chapter even sounds kinda ok. Sure, Medaka coming back is dissapointing, but nothing to be surprised about.

If not for those three words.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:17   Link #12658
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Spoiler for spoiler:
I don't think it really matters if Kumagawa stays the same or changes wasn't really expecting him to change anyway, Medaka didn't change even in spite of all the character development she went through. The obvious issue is this is the climax to the longest and hyped character arc for him, and it blows so very badly. Like wolfstein said Zenkichi's most hyped character arc he may not have beaten her in a fight, but he managed to take the most visible position she had and altered the flawed way of thinking she had, ultimately he became the man that he feared would appear the man that defeated her. All this was earned through hard work and even then I thought he got short changed in the arc proceeding.

In comparison Kumagawa didn't achieve shit, he made a bet on the winning horse (a horse that almost always wins). Dude got screwed over majorly it's still extremely iffy if he even earned Medaka's love due to the brotherzoning and fact she's still engaged. Should he win Medaka's heart anyway it would not be personally a good resolution for him.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-05 at 14:33.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:24   Link #12659
Wolfenstein
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A better way of this turning out:

Misogi: Omg! You took my second button!

Medaka: I sure did!

Misogi: ...

Medaka: ...

Misogi: So are we going to have sex now?

Medaka: Nope!

Misogi: Ahhh! Once again, I couldn't win!



Sure, still sucks, but at least nothing's ruined.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:40   Link #12660
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
A better way of this turning out:

Misogi: Omg! You took my second button!

Medaka: I sure did!

Misogi: ...

Medaka: ...

Misogi: So are we going to have sex now?

Medaka: Nope!

Misogi: Ahhh! Once again, I couldn't win!



Sure, still sucks, but at least nothing's ruined.
Don't you see this was his graduation Nisio had to do something!
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