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Old 2013-03-05, 15:17   Link #12661
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
I don't know if you're implying he's already won over her heart with these latest chapters or will in the future, but if it's the former, then that is ridiculous; he has not won over her heart, his victory was her returning alive, and I see no point to continue this artificial narrative by creating emotions that simply don't exist between them. Also, I really wouldn't want Kumagawa's ultimate victory to be boiled down to his feelings for Medaka, since that does a disservice to his character, and it's something he would never be successful in anyways. I don't think Kumagawa's naive enough to actually expect to win over her heart, and I don't expect him to continue his search for a "victory", since he seems quite satisfied with this one.
lol, get some reading comprehension then. I said that Kumagawa's story is not over. Also, Kumagawa wanting Medaka to fall for him romantically does nothing to diminish him as a character because ultimately Kumagawa's motivation is about supplanting the main characters, about beating them and placing them below him in the story.

Unlike Zenkichi, who held back on telling Medaka that her purpose is to be his girlfriend and instead did the honourable thing of letting her pursue her own purpose, Kumagawa would have no compunctions following his self-interests telling Medaka to bind herself to him or change however he wants. (Of course, part of that would be trolling. However, it's precisely the fact that he's a troll/Minus which would give him the freedom to act that way.) Kumagawa winning over Medaka would elevate him to an equal level with her in terms of main character status, rather than degrade him.

As for "naivete" or being satisfied with his current victories, that is precisely what the whole point of overcoming his Minus is about. Ajimu told Kumagawa "wanting to win is the same thing as being able to win", that was her encouragement to him. Do you think there's any meaning to that if Kumagawa then decided "nope, that's too difficult, I give up/it's impossible" about one of the only things he actually wants as a character? The fact that Kumagawa hasn't given up is precisely the reason for a whole bunch of his past 'antagonistic' behaviour, liking trolling Zenkichi just before the election in the True Flask Plan arc, asking the Medaka do Naked Apron for him for his reward at the start of the JBW arc, declaring that he would defeat Medaka before his graduation at the start of the Shiranui arc, or his latest act of BookMaker-ing Zenkichi to send Medaka off in the last chapter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedKey View Post
That would be quite difficult, as if the spoilers are true, Medaka calls him 'Misogi onii-chan'. Second time he gets brotherzoned.
It's precisely because it would be difficult that the story is set up for it. Kumagawa has already had a shitton of victories, why haven't any of them actually counted for him? Because none of them had anything to do with what he wants a real victory over. The fact that Kumagawa still believes the things he wants are impossible is what has maintained his Minus status. On the other hand, Ajimu performed her one and only 'biased action' to encourage Kumagawa that the things he wants are the things which are truly possible.

The Kumagawa before reformation was someone who hurt others. The Kumagawa after reformation became someone who protects and challenges others. However, the Kumagawa at the end of his story, the one who has truly overcome the curse of his Minus, is someone who has learned to be selfish, to pursue and grasp his own personal victories.
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Old 2013-03-05, 15:28   Link #12662
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, get some reading comprehension then. I said that Kumagawa's story is not over. Also, Kumagawa wanting Medaka to fall for him romantically does nothing to diminish him as a character because ultimately Kumagawa's motivation is about supplanting the main characters, about beating them and placing them below him in the story.

Unlike Zenkichi, who held back on telling Medaka that her purpose is to be his girlfriend and instead did the honourable thing of letting her pursue her own purpose, Kumagawa would have no compunctions following his self-interests telling Medaka to bind herself to him or change however he wants. (Of course, part of that would be trolling. However, it's precisely the fact that he's a troll/Minus which would give him the freedom to act that way.) Kumagawa winning over Medaka would elevate him to an equal level with her in terms of main character status, rather than degrade him.

As for "naivete" or being satisfied with his current victories, that is precisely what the whole point of overcoming his Minus is about. Ajimu told Kumagawa "wanting to win is the same thing as being able to win", that was her encouragement to him. Do you think there's any meaning to that if Kumagawa then decided "nope, that's too difficult, I give up/it's impossible" about one of the only things he actually wants as a character? The fact that Kumagawa hasn't given up is precisely the reason for a whole bunch of his past 'antagonistic' behaviour, liking trolling Zenkichi just before the election in the True Flask Plan arc, asking the Medaka do Naked Apron for him for his reward at the start of the JBW arc, declaring that he would defeat Medaka before his graduation at the start of the Shiranui arc, or his latest act of BookMaker-ing Zenkichi to send Medaka off in the last chapter.




It's precisely because it would be difficult that the story is set up for it. Kumagawa has already had a shitton of victories, why haven't any of them actually counted for him? Because none of them had anything to do with what he wants a real victory over. The fact that Kumagawa still believes the things he wants are impossible is what has maintained his Minus status. On the other hand, Ajimu performed her one and only 'biased action' to encourage Kumagawa that the things he wants are the things which are truly possible.

The Kumagawa before reformation was someone who hurt others. The Kumagawa after reformation became someone who protects and challenges others. However, the Kumagawa at the end of his story, the one who has truly overcome the curse of his Minus, is someone who has learned to be selfish, to pursue and grasp his own personal victories.
TBF I think the dudes issue is that Kumagawa's completely lost his schtic and what he gained for it was pretty damn poor. Kumagawa is no longer a "loser" he is no longer an underdog the universe no longer screws him over. That means there's nothing particularily special or unique about Kumagawa winning anymore (this is all igoring personality), the dude is overpowered as fuck he's supposed to win there's nothing to be gained or achieved through Kumagawa beating anyone in this manga bar Aijimu and Medaka because he's that overpowered.

The single thing, that kept him as an underdog in comparison to the rest of the characters in this manga was that the universe (or himself) was screwing him over preventing him from actually winning. Now that he's lost that he's not much different from Medaka and Aijimu in overall overpoweredness. This is fine but what he gained in comparison to that I can't see as anything less than a blow. Since the moment he surpasses his fate would generally be his greatest achievement, before he becomes an average joe. In his greatest achievement he didn't achieve anything and simply bet on the foregone conclusion.

It's great your happy this finale was used for the potential of shipping, but I can honestly see the majority of his fans (especially those that aren't also Medaka fans) being quite annoyed with this development.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:12   Link #12663
Lupus753
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Spoiler for next chapter:
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:30   Link #12664
KLGChaos
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Nishio is definitely an author you either love or hate. As another person posted on myanimelist:

"A man who made a career out of writing cringingly bad and rambling dialogue and having a pretty good artist to be paired up with for his novels and manga. Knows how to write unique and distinctive fan service scenes and that's about it, other than that his stories have no flow or internal logic and his characters are all loathsome and irritating in the extreme.

His talent in writing smut could be put to legitimately good use in writing scenes for eroge though."

That pretty much sums up what I feel about Nishio, though I don't find all his dialogue cringe-worthy. Some of the banter is quite good. His stories really do lack any flow or real internal logic, though, which is a big turn off for me. :P Some may find it to be genius, I just find it annoying.

I'd say this past arc pretty much takes that to a whole new level.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:36   Link #12665
Randrak42
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I dunno about the character's part...I for one love the cast of the Monogatari series. Plus Zen, Kumagawa, Emukae, Shiranui and a few others.

And I'm sure a lot of others do too.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:42   Link #12666
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I dunno about the character's part...I for one love the cast of the Monogatari series. Plus Zen, Kumagawa, Emukae, Shiranui and a few others.

And I'm sure a lot of others do too.
Yep, the characters from Monogarari are great, as are the ones in Medaka Box. The thing that poster from MAL doesn't seem to grasp is that most of Nisio's characyers are there to pose a question to the audience about something, to get them to think about something.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:48   Link #12667
KLGChaos
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I like the characters in Monogatari, as well. Not as much a fan of the characters in Medaka Box. I like some of them, but others I could really do without. Especially all the characters that serve no real purpose to the story and end up being discarded in a few chapters, never to be seen again except for the occasional cameo. He's done that with a LOT of characters in this manga. I just feel like most of the characters in MB are shallow and undeveloped compared to his other works.
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:02   Link #12668
Tenchi Hou Take
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A lot of Nisio's character development for characters in Medaka box seem quite arbitary, outside of the obvious glaring fault I'd probably say Nisio's handled it quite badly considering this development for almost all characters in this manga. Ironically Zenkichi for as much as he got screwed over/not developed and the butt of the manga for a long time he probably so far got developed the best, he got a reasonable character climax and a great arc climax.

Was it really so difficult for Nisio to bother doing at lest some of that shit, with another character, any other character.
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:19   Link #12669
Guernsey
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Zenkichi always the bridesmaid but never the bride...that sounds off for some reason.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:17   Link #12670
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Zenkichi always the bridesmaid but never the bride...that sounds off for some reason.
Wait Zenkichi still engaged to the girl unless it gets called off, so how is that comparison remotely true? You can argue maybe in the future but you should be currently replacing Kumagawa in that phrase (which would actually make more sense). This is ignoring the fact that Zenkichi has 2 girls who are more than willing to be with should things with Medaka go awry.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-05 at 19:28.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:37   Link #12671
ccie20012
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@Guernsey
Wait a minute. Zenkichi now owner of the main achievements in the manga.
On the battlefield - a victory over Iihiko.
In love - Medaka.
Absolute top.
I do not want to offend fans Kumagawa. But the events of the last two chapters (with a calm deliberation) more like an honorable retirement. Than the actual elevation. Something like a very honorable but nothing decisive positions. And the status of the younger brother as the honorable award.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2013-03-05 at 19:48.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:57   Link #12672
Kaisos Erranon
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Nn, those spoilers... yeah, I think I'm done reading Medaka Box. Someone PM me if the next arc is somehow a titanic jump in quality or something, okay?
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
*snip*
You know, Medaka Box is probably the worst thing he's ever written, and Katanagatari the second-worst. Neither is particularly indicative of the rest of his body of work. His books do tend to vary a lot in quality, but only because he writes so god-damned much.
So please, don't judge him based on a no-effort work like this. Normally his stories actually do have some kind of internal logic, even if that logic is weird.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:01   Link #12673
Drkz
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At the rate this is going... I feel like Medaka box might get axed pretty soon.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:02   Link #12674
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Drkz View Post
At the rate this is going... I feel like Medaka box might get axed pretty soon.
yet the spoilers say otherwise...
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Old 2013-03-06, 03:33   Link #12675
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
that most of Nisio's characyers are there to pose a question to the audience about something, to get them to think about something.
The problem is that not all want to read some psychobabbling about some shit. They want to read manga with manga characters. And as stand alone Medaka characters sometimes do seem pretty shitty and one sided in comparison to the same Monogatari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
yet the spoilers say otherwise...
It could be that MB will be for some reason stretched out. Normally Jump is pretty strict but for some titles it takes softer approach. Maybe they just like to taste Nishio's ass and ride his name even though the popularity of his manga is crap low.
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Old 2013-03-06, 09:39   Link #12676
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nn, those spoilers... yeah, I think I'm done reading Medaka Box. Someone PM me if the next arc is somehow a titanic jump in quality or something, okay?
Ok, will do.

Farewell.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You know, Medaka Box is probably the worst thing he's ever written
It's depressing how often I'm hearing this everywhere. Like, seriously, must the fifth time in these weeks.
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Old 2013-03-06, 09:48   Link #12677
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nn, those spoilers... yeah, I think I'm done reading Medaka Box. Someone PM me if the next arc is somehow a titanic jump in quality or something, okay?

You know, Medaka Box is probably the worst thing he's ever written, and Katanagatari the second-worst. Neither is particularly indicative of the rest of his body of work. His books do tend to vary a lot in quality, but only because he writes so god-damned much.
So please, don't judge him based on a no-effort work like this. Normally his stories actually do have some kind of internal logic, even if that logic is weird.
I was just quoting someone on MAL. I actually really liked the Monogatari series. My point mostly applied to this manga and how surprised I was with how the quality didnt live up to his former works. I'm honestly wondering if it has something to do with the medium-- just because someone is great at writing novels, doesn't mean he's automatically good at writing for comics (or manga). There's a lot of difference between the two. Pacing, development, etc.
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Old 2013-03-06, 13:45   Link #12678
tuckersister
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So the next chapter..Kumagawa mainly is the central character..despite graduating.
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Old 2013-03-07, 08:17   Link #12679
Valid
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Does anyone remember when kumagawa was convincing Naze to join the minus and he showed her a list of the members, does anyone know if that "trump card" ever appeared,(unless it was ajimu) and maybe once the new freshman appear maybe that person will be among them considering kumagawa named him as a "child"..any thoughts?
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Old 2013-03-07, 09:19   Link #12680
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It was Ajimu.
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