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Old 2009-11-09, 09:13   Link #1501
Nemesis
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i thought this was a sleeper hit, but its getting really weird i say.I cant properly identify this story as something anymore.

ps. anyone can tell me any sleeper hits like Beelzebub?
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Old 2009-11-09, 09:43   Link #1502
Arturro
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Ive read translation by shadow-skill - same guy who is translating this manga for CXC scans, so Ive a reason to believe his translation is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Spoiler for Medaka Box 26:
Spoiler for answer:


Spoiler for reply to stuopidget post:


What I liked about that chapter - Medaka brother as sis-con. It's silly but funny.
I also like that there was no sudden change in Medaka - Zen relationship. Some people, after reading raws, believed that Medaka suddenly started to shown feelings for Zenkichi. It wouldn't make any sense because it would contradict last 26 chapters. Author refused to give me another reason for complains
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Old 2009-11-09, 09:58   Link #1503
K. Shiruto
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Spoiler for Zen:


And what's so surprising about the school center when the director himself is the main responsible?

Spoiler for Ch 26:
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:12   Link #1504
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
Spoiler for Zen:


And what's so surprising about the school center when the director himself is the main responsible?
All specials and abnormals have a schoolarship. Zen doesn't have one. Zen himself stated that Akune - "just" a special, is stronger than him. Yes, for a human, he is very strong, but his enemies aren't humans, but group of highly resilient, super fast, extremely strong abnormals. They are on different level than Zenkichi. Imagine that Zen is a cat. A strong, agile cat, more powerful than any cat around. But abnormals are tigers. Cat is weaker than tiger. In this story Zenkichi is the weak one, not strong one.
In this topic, or on mangafox forums, there was many times explained - with arguments, that Zenkichi is mentally weak, psychically (relatively) weak, Medaka doesn't love him and so on. So far MB fans failed to give any valid contrarguments, other than: I think otherwise.
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:21   Link #1505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
All specials and abnormals have a schoolarship. Zen doesn't have one. Zen himself stated that Akune - "just" a special, is stronger than him. Yes, for a human, he is very strong, but his enemies aren't humans, but group of highly resilient, super fast, extremely strong abnormals. They are on different level than Zenkichi. Imagine that Zen is a cat. A strong, agile cat, more powerful than any cat around. But abnormals are tigers. Cat is weaker than tiger. In this story Zenkichi is the weak one, not strong one.
In this topic, or on mangafox forums, there was many times explained - with arguments, that Zenkichi is mentally weak, psychically (relatively) weak, Medaka doesn't love him and so on. So far MB fans failed to give any valid contrarguments, other than: I think otherwise.
First, don't mistook me for a MB fan.

About the issue of Zen, considering it's Medaka's brother who is training him, I wouldn't be surprised if that training consists on something more than just strengthen your body.

As for the other, I can't understand how not explaining something that always can be explained later is bad writing. If anything, the author is keeping it to explain later like many authors do.

And considering his reputation as novel writer I wouldn't underestimate him. Plus you're making too many assumptions such as accussing him of not having any idea of being sure with the direction of the plot when you don't even know that for sure. And same goes for the supossed "genre jump" assumption. Honestly, I think you're overdoing a bit

Oh, and Zen not having a schoolarship says a lot and further confirms he can belong to any of the classes, even abnormal since his blood is AB.
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:45   Link #1506
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
First, don't mistook me for a MB fan.
Sorry, I was talking about MB fans in general, not about you personally.

Quote:
About the issue of Zen, considering it's Medaka's brother who is training him, I wouldn't be surprised if that training consists on something more than just strengthen your body.
Lets hope that you're right, Zen really need to grow some balls. Yet I still dislike sudden power ups, even if those are within rules of this story. It's my personal dislike for god mode sue, mary sue, gary stu etc. characters, as well as for sudden power ups without any previous effort.

Quote:
As for the other, I can't understand how not explaining something that always can be explained later is bad writing. If anything, the author is keeping it to explain later like many authors do.
Timing is a very important part of story creation. IMHO author failed at timing in MB. He introduced to many characters just to drop them instantly, shift to battle manga was to sudden, he introduced a bishi bastard (lately another one) before he developed Medaka-Zenkichi relationship. He might give us some explanations later, but IMHO it will be too late. Considering how badly MB is ranked in WSJ he might not have enough time to give explanations before MB will be canceled (I doubt that Nisioisin name will protect MB forever).

Quote:
And considering his reputation as novel writer I wouldn't underestimate him. Plus you're making too many assumptions such as accussing him of not having any idea of being sure with the direction of the plot when you don't even know that for sure. And same goes for the supossed "genre jump" assumption. Honestly, I think you're overdoing a bit
As it was mentioned in this thread many times before - being a good novel writer doesn't mean someone will be a good manga author, or good film scriptwriter. You're assuming that there wasn't any genere shift, I'm assuming there was. It's a matter of perception, mine is different than yours.

Quote:
Oh, and Zen not having a schoolarship says a lot and further confirms he can belong to any of the classes, even abnormal since his blood is AB.
You're right he might belong to any class, but so far he was portrayed as a normal, although thought, human. Medaka (Unzen, etc., as well as all specials, like Akune) were portrayed as a special people from the moment of their introduction. So far there is no reason to believe that Zen is abnormal (and I hope he'll never be, I don't want to see him as a gary stu character).
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:54   Link #1507
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Have to say, I agree with your points about the timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
You're right he might belong to any class, but so far he was portrayed as a normal, although thought, human. Medaka (Unzen, etc., as well as all specials, like Akune) were portrayed as a special people from the moment of their introduction. So far there is no reason to believe that Zen is abnormal (and I hope he'll never be, I don't want to see him as a gary stu character).
So basically you would prefer Zen as special, wich would give him more merits if he defeats an abnormal just like Nabeshima did with Unzen's sister. But first he needs his own fighting style, some reinforcement and maybe his own personal weapon too.

Last edited by K. Shiruto; 2009-11-09 at 11:08.
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:58   Link #1508
KLGChaos
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My take on the translation:

Spoiler:


I agree with Arturro that the manga has been lackluster in its writing. Writing a manga and a novel are two completely different animals. In a novel, you have time to introduce characters and write their backgrounds and describe characters in detail. In a manga, you just have a picture with a few words and I feel he spent way too much time "explaining" in the bubbles and not enough time just showing us.

Plus, he did introduce way too many characters too early and then seemingly dropped them. It's one of the biggest reasons that Zen was lost in the shuffle. I mean, Onigase was introduced-- and then made irrelevant by Unzen. Akune and Kikaijima were introduced, given one chapter to themselves and then pushed to the back burner, after everyone thought they'd be major player because they were part of the student council. Of course, the council thing has pretty much been downplayed as well.

The manga is getting better in my mind, so I'll have to see where it's going to go from here. It was dead last in the rankings this week, but survived again it seems as Wajima was cut instead.
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Old 2009-11-09, 11:38   Link #1509
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
So basically you would prefer Zen as special, wich would give him more merits if he defeats an abnormal just like Nabeshima did with Unzen's sister. But first he needs his own fighting style, some reinforcement and maybe his own personal weapon too.
Yes, I'm rooting for underdogs, so I want Zenkichi to be a underdog, not a gary stu. But I want to see a reason, how Zenkichi could win with any abnormal. Abnormals so far were portrayed as so much above humans (specials included) that there should be no way for humans to defeat them in 1 on 1 combat. I dislike Nabeshima fight with maid girl, even if Nabeshima is a special, experienced martial artist and cheated, she still shouldn't have won that fight. On the other hand it's looks that author noticed that he overpowered abnormals and in last 3 chapters he started to downgrade their strength.
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Old 2009-11-09, 12:41   Link #1510
Kurosu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
I dislike Nabeshima fight with maid girl, even if Nabeshima is a special, experienced martial artist and cheated, she still shouldn't have won that fight. On the other hand it's looks that author noticed that he overpowered abnormals and in last 3 chapters he started to downgrade their strength.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...unchOutCthulhu

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but you act like the uber overpowered (by description at least) person getting trashed by the seemingly underpowered individual is new. That pattern occurs almost every time in most shonen. The only reason the abnormals were hyped, or by that matter, any opposing force in any manga is hyped, is so our happy go lucky heroes can bring them down (eventually) and the win can be considerably dramatic. My only guess as to why people dislike this being done in Medaka Box is that it is happening a bit too close to the introduction of the abnormals, so the hype is lost. Nabeshima's win is viable, but probably a bit too soon.
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Old 2009-11-09, 13:03   Link #1511
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...unchOutCthulhu

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but you act like the uber overpowered (by description at least) person getting trashed by the seemingly underpowered individual is new. That pattern occurs almost every time in most shonen. The only reason the abnormals were hyped, or by that matter, any opposing force in any manga is hyped, is so our happy go lucky heroes can bring them down (eventually) and the win can be considerably dramatic. My only guess as to why people dislike this being done in Medaka Box is that it is happening a bit too close to the introduction of the abnormals, so the hype is lost. Nabeshima's win is viable, but probably a bit too soon.
It's nothing new, as I've said a few post earlier I like when underdogs wins with overpowered antagonists. The way how it was executed in MB is bad. Abnormals was introduced as superpowerful entities, a way above any human. For 4 chapters they are shown as something totally inhuman. And then suddenly Nabeshima appears, beats one of abnormals like it was nothing special, and walk away. It looked stupid. Almost everything in this manga happens without a reason and without any consequences.
MB is a very interesting manga when we look at all those tiny details, almost every panel have some information, hint etc. Initial plot was great (relationship between too perfect girl and normal boy - nothing new, but still interesting). A few interesting characters have been introduced, but character development is done terribly. And worst part - plot, or rather lack of plot. I know that for many shounen manga random fights works as plot, but for me it's just an proxy for plot. Read my earlier post about bad timing in this "plot" development.
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Old 2009-11-09, 13:15   Link #1512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
It's nothing new, as I've said a few post earlier I like when underdogs wins with overpowered antagonists. The way how it was executed in MB is bad. Abnormals was introduced as superpowerful entities, a way above any human. For 4 chapters they are shown as something totally inhuman. And then suddenly Nabeshima appears, beats one of abnormals like it was nothing special, and walk away. It looked stupid. Almost everything in this manga happens without a reason and without any consequences.
I don't think the problem was that it was badly executed, it was more along the lines that they didn't explain the tiers within the abnormals. What I mean is that by now it's clear that not all abnormals are overpowered, only a few of them are (those that were selected for the Flask Plan as well as a couple of stragglers who might be outside that level but close to it). We were never told that, but we are made to assume that. Anyways, Nabeshima didn't beat her like nothing special, while she made it look easy, she said that it took everything she had. It would come to reason that one who relies on cheating would want to end the fight as soon as possible, or else their gap in strength would become more apparent. So we should be able to assume that Myougi was one of the lower tiered abnormals (I mean, she didn't even have a special ability, only increased speed and strength. You can't possible hold that to the standard of, let's say, Ougi who has a really abnormal power), which is why she fell to a Special, Nabeshima perhaps being a high tiered Special.
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Old 2009-11-09, 13:36   Link #1513
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
...

11. Kuroko no Basket volume 3 (43,420)(Weekly Shonen Jump)

Kuroko Vol 1 like PSYREN Vol 1 and Medaka Vol 1 didn't make the top 30, those 3 are the exceptions to non gag manga not making the top 30 and getting cut. Though with Medaka we found out they only printed.. I think it was 20k copies.. making it impossible to make the top 30 since #30 was 31k. They announced a reprint of Medaka Vol 1 asap though.. I'm thinking with Vol 2 they will give it a chance to see how popular it really is.
Iirc, Medaka's Vol1 sale was really, really good. The moment it came out most of the copies were gone from stores on day 1. I tried looking for the source for this but it seemed like the thread where I saw it got deleted (shame because it has pictures and everything too).
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Old 2009-11-09, 14:15   Link #1514
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Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
Iirc, Medaka's Vol1 sale was really, really good. The moment it came out most of the copies were gone from stores on day 1. I tried looking for the source for this but it seemed like the thread where I saw it got deleted (shame because it has pictures and everything too).
That's half true, it was only sold out because they didn't stock enough (duh) what I mean is that they didn't stock enough for the numbers to be considered really good. The original supply was stellar at best, they re-stocked it later on, but I don't know if anyone posted the numbers for those.
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Old 2009-11-09, 16:25   Link #1515
Arturro
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
I don't think the problem was that it was badly executed, it was more along the lines that they didn't explain the tiers within the abnormals. What I mean is that by now it's clear that not all abnormals are overpowered, only a few of them are (those that were selected for the Flask Plan as well as a couple of stragglers who might be outside that level but close to it). We were never told that, but we are made to assume that. Anyways, Nabeshima didn't beat her like nothing special, while she made it look easy, she said that it took everything she had. It would come to reason that one who relies on cheating would want to end the fight as soon as possible, or else their gap in strength would become more apparent. So we should be able to assume that Myougi was one of the lower tiered abnormals (I mean, she didn't even have a special ability, only increased speed and strength. You can't possible hold that to the standard of, let's say, Ougi who has a really abnormal power), which is why she fell to a Special, Nabeshima perhaps being a high tiered Special.
Yours explanation sound reasonable, and I could accept that high tiered special with lots of fighting experience could win with low tiered abnormal without experience. But there are two problems.
First - it's a fan made explanation. Don't understand me wrong, I love to speculate about mangas, books, films etc. Sometimes fan made speculations are better than authors works itself (this thread is one of those). The problem is that in MB fans are forced to explain almost every part of medakaverse, because author refuse to explain anything.
Second problem is that yours explanation contradict what was told in the manga.
1. Unzen told Zen that Medaka is in danger, because his sister might attack her. Unzen knows how strong Medaka and his sister are. He assumed that Myougi was dangerous for Medaka, not the other way. It means he believed that Myougi is strong enough to defeat Medaka, so she should be at least as strong as Medaka. In other words his sister should be high tiered abnormal, not the weak one. Of course you could explain that Unzen didn't know Myougi true strength, or that he was blinded because of his love for sister, etc. But explanation which need an explanation aren't very convincing.
2. Do you remember Akune introduction arc? Before abnormals were introduced? Nabeshima told that Akune and Medaka are geniuses (Akune at first was portrayed as a slightly weaker, male version of Medaka), while Zenkichi is not, and as a normal human he should stick with another humans. And she invited him to judo club, telling him that within half a year she should train him so he should be able to win a fight with a genius like Akune. She considered herself, as well as Zen, as normal human. She is a third year, so she should at least hear about flask plan, and it should be easy for her to recognize how strong someone is. In other words she assumed that Akune is stronger than her. Akune, that guy who was as useless as Zenikichi during Medaka vs. Unzen fight. So she wasn't a high tiered special, rather a low one. Of course you could explain that she underestimated her own strength, or something like that, but it will be again another explanation for an explanation.

On the other hand, she attacked Myougi on her own, so she was expecting that she could win. IMHO it's just another proof that first 10 chapters doesn't fit with current chapters.
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Old 2009-11-09, 19:37   Link #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
1. Unzen told Zen that Medaka is in danger, because his sister might attack her. Unzen knows how strong Medaka and his sister are. He assumed that Myougi was dangerous for Medaka, not the other way. It means he believed that Myougi is strong enough to defeat Medaka, so she should be at least as strong as Medaka. In other words his sister should be high tiered abnormal, not the weak one. Of course you could explain that Unzen didn't know Myougi true strength, or that he was blinded because of his love for sister, etc. But explanation which need an explanation aren't very convincing.
Well, this here is fan interpretation my friend. He was never giving a warning to Medaka because he feared for Medaka's safety. He just wanted Zenkichi to tell Medaka that his sister was after him. He never said she was in danger, that's just your speculation. There's no way that Myougi could be stronger than Medaka had they fought straight, Unzen told Zenkichi that he himself was better than his sister (made her cry, etc) and since Medaka is better than Unzen, how could Unzen believe that his sister was stronger or as strong as Medaka. And the results speak for themselves, Nabeshima was able to defeat Myougi, that alone should evidence enough that Myougi wasn't a high-tier Abnormal. He probably just wanted Medaka to know about his sister so they could avoid a fight, but I won't conjecture further since fan speculation has no merit. Also, concerning the genius thing, seeing that Nabeshima trained Akune, and being a practitioner of foul play, I don't think she herself believed she was weaker than Akune.
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Old 2009-11-10, 05:09   Link #1517
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Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
Iirc, Medaka's Vol1 sale was really, really good. The moment it came out most of the copies were gone from stores on day 1. I tried looking for the source for this but it seemed like the thread where I saw it got deleted (shame because it has pictures and everything too).
I think they printed around 20k for the first run (which sold out quick) and who knows for the second.. but it wouldn't be more than the first run you would think.

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Originally Posted by Adr 00 View Post
i thought this was a sleeper hit, but its getting really weird i say.I cant properly identify this story as something anymore.

ps. anyone can tell me any sleeper hits like Beelzebub?
If you're talking WSJ than for 2009 the top 3 series would be... Beelzebub, Kuroko and (lol) Medaka Box. Very weak 2009 for WSJ, 08 was much better with Bakuman, Toriko, Nurarihyon no Mago and PSYREN.
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Old 2009-11-11, 01:29   Link #1518
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Hmm, I don't really mind 'Gary Stu'-ish main characters as long as the plot gets there properly. That being said, my impression on the term 'Gary Stu' is that it is used to describe main characters who are perfect from day one, and the series is just the author masturbating to how awesome that character is.

That is to say, I'm interested in Character development. Starting with the main character being weak, inept, and cowardly and through the course of the series (With some believable catalysts) the main character becomes strong and heroic. Or at least stops being such a fuck up.

So I wouldn't call Zenkichi a Gary Stu character, but the series would be pretty poor if he suddenly becomes amazing. I would like to see them do something about the Flask plan though, the director/principal fellow essentially said the project was designed to figure out a way to turn normal humans into geniuses; and I think this would make a good plot device with Zenkichi if utilized properly. Hopefully the series will have his strength increase at a somewhat more probabilistic rate and his relationship with Medaka develop realistically as well. If they toss Zenkichi into the Flask plan and he becomes an abnormal I wouldn't mind some chapters concerning him coming to terms with the new development; perhaps he becomes psychologically unstable and needs to find some normalcy in his life, which could tie in well with how the dynamics of his relationship with Medaka change.
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Old 2009-11-12, 03:38   Link #1519
Westlo
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Nurarihyon no Mago is beating in the TOC lately only being behind Naruto and Bleach and it was a bottom 5 dweller for a long time...

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Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
Yeah confused it with Kuroko with some other series which I remember selling better than Psyren, either way Psyren just ain't popular at all.
Well latest manga sales now makes you right anyway lol.

13, *67,147 *67,147 Kuroko no Basket vol.4 (up 24k from vol 3)
16, *53,986 *53,986 Psyren vol.8 (down 6k from vol 7)

I guess Kuroko's color page spamming is getting more justified now since it's selling rather well.

*7, *87,761 *87,761 Beelzebub vol.3

Beelzebub will break the 100k in a week mark soon.
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Old 2009-11-12, 11:51   Link #1520
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Nurarihyon no Mago is beating in the TOC lately only being behind Naruto and Bleach and it was a bottom 5 dweller for a long time...



Well latest manga sales now makes you right anyway lol.

13, *67,147 *67,147 Kuroko no Basket vol.4 (up 24k from vol 3)
16, *53,986 *53,986 Psyren vol.8 (down 6k from vol 7)

I guess Kuroko's color page spamming is getting more justified now since it's selling rather well.

*7, *87,761 *87,761 Beelzebub vol.3

Beelzebub will break the 100k in a week mark soon.
Seriously, do people buy these manga because of color pages? That makes no sense... What happened to the purchase because of a good story line, the enticing characters, or even the fan-service?
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