AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-01-29, 01:23   Link #1941
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon's Hat View Post
It would be interesting to see what happens if Akune or Swimgirl get hurt. They need to stop standing around.
I really, really doubt the reaction would be anywhere near the same. While Medaka obviously doesn't have any romantic feelings for Zen as of now.. if the manga runs its course I'm 100% positive they'll end together. Stuff like this chapter being a step, small as it may be, in that direction. Nisio wouldn't do a Katanagatari type ending for this.. and that sort of ending is the only way I don't see them together at the end.. and no this isn't through shipping glasses, I'm totally indifferent to Medaka X Zen or any potential pairing in this manga.

Last edited by Westlo; 2010-01-29 at 15:40.
Westlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-29, 15:34   Link #1942
K. Shiruto
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Translation is out:

http://mangahelpers.com/t/shadowskill/releases/19400
K. Shiruto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-29, 16:18   Link #1943
KLGChaos
The Shermain
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 35
Wow... that was quick. Guess a good chapter, combined with less dialogue than normal, made it easier to translate.

Spoiler:
__________________
KLGChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-29, 16:51   Link #1944
K. Shiruto
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Spoiler for spoiler:

Last edited by K. Shiruto; 2010-01-29 at 17:49.
K. Shiruto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-29, 22:23   Link #1945
Haesslich
Go to DMC! Go to DMC!
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Saying people dislike perfect characters because they are better than them might be true in general, but personally I find that a really petty way of thinking. (What's with all this 'Haruhi done right' talk anyway? Haruhi was pretty damn good for what it was, at least until the novels stalled and we got handed that dismal excuse of a second season). As for flaws making a character more sympathetic or interesting, however, this idea seems like an incredible stretch to me (I'll give you relatable though). Personally, if a character has flaws but manages to overcome them, they generally get a neutral response from me. On the other hand, if a character is held back by those flaws or worse ends up harming others because of them, then on the whole I will usually see them as worthless.
To quote KLGChaos later, flaws aren't always detracting from a character - nor do I find them worthless if they fail to overcome them, any more than I find other people who are inevitably flawed to be worthless for being so. Being flawed seems to be part of the human condition (or at least not to be perfect in mind, body, or spirit); otherwise there would be few differences, and possibly no religion or philosophy as people would not have those 'character traits' which provoke such discussion.

But they DO make for drama... or comedy. Perfect characters who do no wrong, and can do no wrong, are either going to be very bland or their very perfection will be held up as a flaw (as they are too perfect to really exist, which suggests some hidden imperfection).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
To expand on that, though, neither Medaka or Haruhi are really perfect characters. Let's talk about a recent example from Haruhi first: throughout the early stages of the series, she's a pretty self-centered bitch. In the second book/season of the series, about the making of their movie for the school festival, after getting Mikuru dumped into a pond, Haruhi proceeds to get her drunk with spiked juice and then tries to make Koizumi kiss her. When Kyon gets angry at her and stops her, she justifies it with "Mikuru's my toy". Not 'perfection' by any definition (although...I still can't quite decide who was more of a tool in that situation. Opposing Haruhi is fine, but trying to punch her? For the sake of some silly crush on Mikuru?). However, contrary to the ideas being stated above, this flaw of Haruhi's made her less likeable to me, rather than allowing me to relate to her self-centeredness. And in fact, throughout the rest of the series and in those parts in the beginning when she isn't throwing tantrums about not getting her way (e.g., when she is having fun like a normal girl or when she is expressing her sense of smallness and insignificance in the face of a sea of dull humanity), I generally find her pretty likeable.

As for Medaka; this is a pretty random time for me to be bringing this up, but I heavily disliked that chapter about the dog, and it was one of the things that contributed to my initial distaste for this series. In the first place that dog suit was ugly/freaky as hell, but beyond that the fact that one of the first actual character traits Medaka is given is that she loves animals (lame), and is sad they don't get along with her (even lamer), just leaves a bad impression. This supposed flaw (actually though, wouldn't 'loving animals' supposedly be a sympathetic, relatable, positive/'perfect' trait?) just made her seem pathetic to me (well the repulsive suit I mean, and it didn't even work), and her generic motivation never grabbed me either. So Medaka's other character trait (wanting to 'help people'), and the similar impossibility and pointlessness of the two, combined to make me see Medaka as an extremely generic and shallow character (perhaps, I might point out, precisely because of how mundanely relatable those two motivations/flaws were--yes, btw, I think I will call 'loving animals' and 'wanting to help others' flaws lol :P). However, what made Medaka eventually become more interesting for me was precisely the force and disregard for other people's opinions which she revealed (among other things later on, namely her backstory and the developing plot). The fact that Medaka is capable, and furthermore recognizes (on whatever level) her own capability and therefore tends to disregard the useless sentiments/contributions of other parties around her, and furthermore recognizes that she is not always correct and therefore desires to gain the help of other people who oppose her but furthermore are capable of backing that up, is all very proper and (indeed) likeable for me. So in the end, despite her introductory vapid declaration of existing only to 'help people', the correctness (or maybe 'perfection' ) of these aspects of Medaka's personality do make her at least somewhat relatable to me, and I find her a generally likeable character. On the other hand, Medaka's delusional insistence that she is a 'normal person', and her occasional desire to 'help' others when it would disrupt positive personal growth, are flaws, and they are things I dislike about her character.

So to sum it all up, I think flaws are exclusively negative in terms of whether or not a character is likeable--although they might make a character more relatable, that is only for the negative part of a character, which isn't particularly diserable anyway. I think the only challenge 'perfect' characters present for an audience is with regards to suspension of disbelief, not likeability--likeability should generally be based on the compatibility of the character's positive aspects with the viewer. Unless you hate life/humanity/the world or are extremely selfish or something, I'd say generally, flaws remain negative, and perfection remains positive.
Perfection remains positive? I'd argue that - since perfection is an ideal, rather than a reality... and people who claim perfection I tend to distrust, since that suggests that they've mental flaws greater than most. Plus, perfection's a bad idea for a story, or for a character in general - there's a reason the 'Mary Sue' idea is derided by most readers and is seen as a major shortcoming in a story... since either you require ridiculous leaps to advance a story, or else the way they're written makes their actions extremely improbable since reality itself is imperfect... and they just don't 'fit' the world/setting.

Haruhi's a narcissitic, self-centered jerk whose lack of empathy ranges into sociopathy... which is where the rage comes from. Medaka's lack of understanding of others, and how she projects her motives onto them, makes her damned annoying in some parts of the early story arcs... especially once those people who she projects her beliefs on seem to go along with her motives more often than not, rather than staying 'true' to their own natures or apparent natures. Those 'flaws' she had were, as you pointed out, very shallow and trite - barely worth reading about, and certainly were uninteresting.

Medaka's problem, in my opinion, is similar to Zenkichi's towards Medaka; both of them can intellectually understand the sentiment shared by others (in Medaka's case, that other people aren't perfect or even as capable as her; Zenkichi's being that Medaka might actually love him in a way different from how she loves others), but not really 'understand' them at the deepest levels of their minds/beings. Yes, Medaka can superficially understand how people might not be perfect and may be incapable of achieving their full potential (or what she sees as that potential), but doesn't believe that they might not either be able to do so or might not WANT to do so - just as some people can't believe that people may not necessarily want to be 'good' or 'nice' towards others or are incapable of empathy or being righteous/moral. She sees imperfection, but doesn't believe that people might not want to be forced out of their comfort zones and past said imperfections. Ditto Zenkichi not really believing that Medaka's feelings towards him are anything greater/different from those she has towards everyone as a messiah-type character.

The reason Medaka sees herself as no greater than any 'other' normal person is that she believes that anyone is capable of achieving anything, but only needs to work a bit harder to do so. She doesn't seem to believe that there may be physical, mental, or emotional limits in others as she seems to have few to none of those (her incredible strength, resistance to pain, ability to control her body and mind to an inhuman degree, superhuman intellect)... which makes her completely incapable of emotionally accepting that she might be the one who's different, or that there might even be limits to other human beings. Because she herself seems to have none, she projects that same 'if I'm like this, anyone can be like this' belief on others, and thus gets confused by people like Unzen who completely refuse to subscribe to her worldview... and unlike 'normal' people, refuses to even entertain the notion that she might not be the delusional one due to their own self-confidence in their own abilities/talents/correctness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Flaws aren't always negative. EVERYONE has flaws in this world, many of which hold them back from certain things... by your logic, that would make pretty much everyone worthless and I can't agree with that.

Though, I can see where you are coming from, I think it's more the type of flaw that's an issue. For example, in Haruhi's example there, her flaw was that she was a b*tchy, arrogant, controlling person who was using someone. It's not a flaw that inspires sympathy, but instead anger in a person. People don't like characters like that as unless you're that type of person, which I think is rare, as they aren't endearing qualities. Now, if instead, she felt insecure or scared, that's also a flaw and it's one most people can relate to better, because they've been there, and it's not a flaw that makes her act like a complete asshat to people because she doesn't go around harming other people with it. I personally can't stand perfection because it's not only an impossibility, but because it's just something I can't relate to and would never want to. I don't care if someone is better than me at something, but someone who is perfect? It's just something I can't imagine. Everything we know is flawed, so I'd rather have something I'm familiar with. Oh, and I have no problems with life, humanity or the world. I'm just realistic and prefer my people to be a bit more real.
The insecure/scared flaw is called 'moe' in some circles. Plus, as you've pointed out, the too-perfect types either are completely unsympathetic because they're 'not real' or else are complete jerks who only believe they're perfect... which is the flaw that makes them unlikeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
As for Medaka's personality-- I actually dislike that more than I do her God Mode Sueness. While she loves all of humanity, it's also something that's very hard for me to swallow, given her attitude-- she's arrogant (or overly self-confident), dominating, tyrannical, petty at times and hypocritical (two of those, she freely admits), so her loving everyone feels like a load of bull to me. Her personality doesn't really match up with her philosophy, if you get what I'm saying. While I admire her for trying to get better, the way she goes about things makes me dislike her as a character. As Shiranui said best-- she dominates people around her and makes them follow her. She doesn't believe she's right, so she instead forces other people to believe that, perhaps to alleviate her own fears, which makes her kind of selfish as well. It's why I liked Unzen, though-- he was finally a character who wouldn't fall for her shtick and stuck with his own philosophy. While I don't agree with world outlook, I do commend him for not bowing down before Medaka like everyone else has. It's also one of the reasons Zen has grated on me. He KNOWS Medaka is wrong about a lot of stuff, yet he still feeds her need for reassurance, so she never takes his rebukes seriously (like with the stripping thing).

Something I've noticed, in contrast to Haruhi (which I've never read, but always hear about), is how they both live in an abnormal world, but Haruhi WANTS to see all the supernatural things going on, but while everyone else is fixing her messes, she's completely unaware of what's going on. Medaka on the other hand, has a world of abnormal people presented right before her and she herself is abnormal (and even told so), but unlike Haruhi, she's trying not to see it or she sees it and refuses to believe it. It might not have much to do with anything, but it's interesting to see how both author's take the God Mode Sue trope, stick them in unbelievable worlds and then have them get screwed over by being the biggest abnormal thing there is. Haruhi wants to see the supernatural, but she can't. Medaka wants to be seen as normal, but she can't.

I'm still wondering is Zenkichi has anything to do with her refusal to accept herself as abnormal. Maybe she realizes that he's completely insecure, so she's trying to portray herself as normal so that wall won't be in their relationship, especially if she reciprocates his feelings.
There's not much of a difference between arrogance and overwhelming self-confidence except viewpoint, in my books - except perhaps that self-confidence suggests that one is very sure of one's ability to handle a situation while arrogance is more brittle and merely a superficial belief that one is able to handle anything, and forcing that belief on others while self-confidence is less overtly aggressive.

And yes, my concern with her earlier appearances is that she DOES dominate people/situations pretty thoroughly, and tries to convince others that her viewpoint is the correct one without telling them 'you're dead wrong, I'm the one who's right' (which would be arrogance). Look at her speech during the judo match to Nabeshima in Chapter 6: "There's no difference between a genius or a normal person either. All that's there is someone who earnestly tries". It's as if Medaka does not differentiate between success or failure, or results - just whether someone attempted an act or not.

Of course, Medaka has never failed that we've seen; only recently did we een hear about Kumagawa, who she beat into a pulp because she could not make him play nice/play along. Zenkichi himself says that Medaka always wins, except that one time she didn't 'win' in her own mind, even though he was removed from the situation. Thus, because she always 'wins' (either by imposing her viewpoint on others, or because things go her way... or she makes them go her way through her abilities). She has no way of understanding things outside of her viewpoint, probably because she really, REALLY hates to fail - which is why she doesn't, and why she doesn't understand people who either feel it strongly, or who can feel nothing but that. In other words, she is unable to really connect to some people, since almost everyone (save her) feels like they've failed at least once in their lives. And it was only after Chapter 14-15 that we even saw any major flaws, like her all-consuming rage (Perses Mode); prior to that she was so perfect and sweet that she was kinda annoying.

And I think Zenkichi has some part in her belief that she's normal, or at least her denial that she's rather abnormal... especially since he's the one who's stated flat-out (in his head at least, although he may have said this around her once) that she's so completely unusual in her omnicompetence, and her force of personality is so overwhelming to most people... including him.

Spoiler:
Haesslich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-29, 22:32   Link #1946
Rejuvenation
Final Elysium
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Spoiler:
Rejuvenation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-30, 00:08   Link #1947
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
To quote KLGChaos later, flaws aren't always detracting from a character - nor do I find them worthless if they fail to overcome them, any more than I find other people who are inevitably flawed to be worthless for being so. Being flawed seems to be part of the human condition (or at least not to be perfect in mind, body, or spirit); otherwise there would be few differences, and possibly no religion or philosophy as people would not have those 'character traits' which provoke such discussion.

But they DO make for drama... or comedy. Perfect characters who do no wrong, and can do no wrong, are either going to be very bland or their very perfection will be held up as a flaw (as they are too perfect to really exist, which suggests some hidden imperfection).
This is perhaps a vague distinction but from my perspective 'flawless' doesn't necessarily automatically equal 'perfect'; or alternatively perhaps it does, and my standard for 'perfection' is lower than others. Since we are talking about 'flaws' in terms of character traits here, let me just clarify that I think that you can generally take character traits to be in one of two categories, 'qualitative' and 'quantitative', and traits of either category can be positive or negative, the negative ones being referred to as 'flaws'.

So suppose we take 'strength', or alternatively 'weakness' in the case of Zen (without considering the events of chapter 36). 'Weakness' might describe Zen on a qualitative level in comparison to other characters in Medaka Box, and that might be called a flaw (which would make him relatable as you or others might claim) but quantitatively Zenkichi's 'strength' must certainly be taken as a positive. Seen this way, although one might say that Zen suffers from a flaw 'weakness' or more accurately 'lack of strength' in relation to a subjective standard set by other characters, I'd say objectively that for Zen this does not count as a flaw.

So under this structure it can then be understood that in order for a character to be 'flawless' or (under my definition) 'perfect', they are not necessarily required to be the 'best' at everything or, in other words, quantitatively possess the highest rating for every positive trait, but rather simply possess no negative traits. And I don't think that is impossible, even in real life; being perfect isn't about being the best at everything, it is about being completely suited to the role or niche one occupies.

edit: upon revision, the above three paragraphs are basically a bait and switch. I don't mean to be talking about 'objectivity vs subjectivity' or 'qualitative vs quantitative' at all; the rambling on those subjects basically represent a bit of incoherence and uncertainty as I started the post. The main point, in fact, lies in the definition of perfection as being 'suitability for a given role' and in the definition of 'flawlessness' being 'no negative traits, from the perspective of what is needed to fulfill said given role'. The rambling/bullshit is a pretty good lead up to the introduction of my rather proprietory definitions, though, so I'm gonna leave it there. To be clear: of the stuff above, only my first sentence and the third paragraph hold.

Given this context, you can basically take the meaning of the word 'flaw' to be 'a trait which prevents one from successfully performing in the role or niche one occupies'. To be clear, the 'role' or 'niche' I am speaking of is a just a natural one defined by the universe/life in general, or in fiction, the author (a god-equivalent). So for a person to be held back by a flaw in this worldview must naturally be worthless. They are not fulfilling their purpose, have failed to justify their very existence. They are unsuited to the role they have either grasped or been given, whichever they hold to be more sacred. A flaw is something like that, something that denies its possessor's very existence, and if said possessor allows themself to be bound by it, then they are indeed utterly nothing in my eyes.

I thus tend to think of fictional 'flawless' characters as interesting theoretical models/experiments, explorations of what it means to be fully suited to the purpose one exists for. Fictional narratives are ideally suited for this task, allowing the author to construct not just the environmental circumstances but the very fabric of events and causality themselves, in such a way as to fully demonstrate the unity of said 'perfect' characters life/existence. This is a very impressive thing when it happens/is done well. It's the stuff great and inspirational stories are made of. I honestly do not think 'perfect' characters are bland or boring at all.

Quote:
Perfection remains positive? I'd argue that - since perfection is an ideal, rather than a reality... and people who claim perfection I tend to distrust, since that suggests that they've mental flaws greater than most. Plus, perfection's a bad idea for a story, or for a character in general - there's a reason the 'Mary Sue' idea is derided by most readers and is seen as a major shortcoming in a story... since either you require ridiculous leaps to advance a story, or else the way they're written makes their actions extremely improbable since reality itself is imperfect... and they just don't 'fit' the world/setting.
The difference between the 'perfection' you are talking about and the 'perfection' I am talking about seems to be precisely in that word 'claim'. You (and others) seem to simply dislike overpowered characters who seem to always get their way, whom the authors allow to always get their way. It's true that these kinds of stories which seem to exist only to provide cheap vicarious fulfillment are not very interesting. However, I don't think anybody (real, I mean; from among the author and the readers) has ever claimed that Medaka or Haruhi were perfect characters. If we can all accept that narcissm, self-centeredness, or lack of perspective are flaws, then I think everyone can agree that Haruhi/Medaka were imperfect from the start. I also think that even the authors (or indeed, especially the authors) were definately aware of this from the beginning (even if Medaka Box was initially pretty poor at communicating that). However, my point is then that the things people disliked these characters for were their flaws, not their perfection. Or rather, perhaps with regards to the story in general, what people (including myself) disliked was the fact that these seemed to be sanctioned flaws which were being supported by the events of the story (and by extension, seemingly, the author), which then gave off the appearance that the author considered those traits to be positive. However, the real truth is that in both cases the authors simply wanted to develop a powerful but imperfect character. No claims to perfection were ever truly made. And so in the end, what has bothered us about those characters has always been their flaws, rather than their 'perfection' in any real sense, and it remains that way for those of us who do not trust that the authors will actually correct them.

So I am going to stick with my original claim. Characters who are actually flawless ('perfect') are likeable and interesting, and being one is a good thing. Perfection is positive with regards to character traits, and flaws are negative.

Sorry about not touching on the rest of your posts' content. I don't particularly disagree, but beyond that I am not particularly invested in Medaka or Zen enough that I would dive into analysis of their characters. While I generally find them quite tolerable (because I know they are actively developing), their flaws have bound them to enough of a degree that I am nowhere near an actual fan of them. Actually, as I've probably made pretty obvious earlier in this thread, my single favourite character has always been Unzen from his introduction--he would actually fall under a 'pretty much flawless' description from my perspective.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-01-30 at 00:30.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-30, 02:19   Link #1948
DJ Trouble
Pajama Party!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nowhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstorm View Post
Spoiler:
That was definitely the most interesting part of the chapter. The other one that was close is
Spoiler:
DJ Trouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-30, 20:46   Link #1949
Haesslich
Go to DMC! Go to DMC!
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is perhaps a vague distinction but from my perspective 'flawless' doesn't necessarily automatically equal 'perfect'; or alternatively perhaps it does, and my standard for 'perfection' is lower than others. Since we are talking about 'flaws' in terms of character traits here, let me just clarify that I think that you can generally take character traits to be in one of two categories, 'qualitative' and 'quantitative', and traits of either category can be positive or negative, the negative ones being referred to as 'flaws'.

So suppose we take 'strength', or alternatively 'weakness' in the case of Zen (without considering the events of chapter 36). 'Weakness' might describe Zen on a qualitative level in comparison to other characters in Medaka Box, and that might be called a flaw (which would make him relatable as you or others might claim) but quantitatively Zenkichi's 'strength' must certainly be taken as a positive. Seen this way, although one might say that Zen suffers from a flaw 'weakness' or more accurately 'lack of strength' in relation to a subjective standard set by other characters, I'd say objectively that for Zen this does not count as a flaw.
I wouldn't have said Zen is weak, not by any stretch of the imagination. Imagine the mental and emotional (not to mention physical) fortitude it takes to basically be beside Medaka, day in and day out, for years on end; she's basically superhuman in body and mind, and she states she loves everyone out there in a way which borders on the deific. At no point does he display an inferiority complex (which many, many people might have developed in a similar position), and he's not only not cowed by her but is able to tell her when he thinks she's being an idiot, and despite her forceful personality manages to keep some of his own opinions which contradict her own, whereas other personalities have given up their own separate views to embrace hers. Look at how some of the other clubs/people she dealt with 'reformed'.

Well, except Unzen and Zenkichi. They've managed to keep their opinions intact even when she's basically tried swaying them to her viewpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So under this structure it can then be understood that in order for a character to be 'flawless' or (under my definition) 'perfect', they are not necessarily required to be the 'best' at everything or, in other words, quantitatively possess the highest rating for every positive trait, but rather simply possess no negative traits. And I don't think that is impossible, even in real life; being perfect isn't about being the best at everything, it is about being completely suited to the role or niche one occupies.

edit: upon revision, the above three paragraphs are basically a bait and switch. I don't mean to be talking about 'objectivity vs subjectivity' or 'qualitative vs quantitative' at all; the rambling on those subjects basically represent a bit of incoherence and uncertainty as I started the post. The main point, in fact, lies in the definition of perfection as being 'suitability for a given role' and in the definition of 'flawlessness' being 'no negative traits, from the perspective of what is needed to fulfill said given role'. The rambling/bullshit is a pretty good lead up to the introduction of my rather proprietory definitions, though, so I'm gonna leave it there. To be clear: of the stuff above, only my first sentence and the third paragraph hold.

Given this context, you can basically take the meaning of the word 'flaw' to be 'a trait which prevents one from successfully performing in the role or niche one occupies'. To be clear, the 'role' or 'niche' I am speaking of is a just a natural one defined by the universe/life in general, or in fiction, the author (a god-equivalent). So for a person to be held back by a flaw in this worldview must naturally be worthless. They are not fulfilling their purpose, have failed to justify their very existence. They are unsuited to the role they have either grasped or been given, whichever they hold to be more sacred. A flaw is something like that, something that denies its possessor's very existence, and if said possessor allows themself to be bound by it, then they are indeed utterly nothing in my eyes.

I thus tend to think of fictional 'flawless' characters as interesting theoretical models/experiments, explorations of what it means to be fully suited to the purpose one exists for. Fictional narratives are ideally suited for this task, allowing the author to construct not just the environmental circumstances but the very fabric of events and causality themselves, in such a way as to fully demonstrate the unity of said 'perfect' characters life/existence. This is a very impressive thing when it happens/is done well. It's the stuff great and inspirational stories are made of. I honestly do not think 'perfect' characters are bland or boring at all.
My issue with those characters is that most of the time, people don't fit their roles well... or more importantly, those roles change and people who used to be perfectly suited are no longer so because they either couldn't adapt to those changes, or else the changes were made in such a way that they were no longer suitable to those positions because of who and what they were. That's one of Medaka's main issues, to be honest - she doesn't 'fit' anywhere, but rather tries to make people and situations fit her... or if necessary, beat the crap out of the situation/people until they assume a form that she recognizes and assumes is a 'good fit'. She doesn't seem well adapted for any of the situations around her, not under your definitions... and her superhuman nature made her a harder sell as a protagonist, especially when people who opposed her suddenly changed to suit the roles she decided they fit into as if she'd willed it into being like a certain godlike protagonist of another series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The difference between the 'perfection' you are talking about and the 'perfection' I am talking about seems to be precisely in that word 'claim'. You (and others) seem to simply dislike overpowered characters who seem to always get their way, whom the authors allow to always get their way. It's true that these kinds of stories which seem to exist only to provide cheap vicarious fulfillment are not very interesting. However, I don't think anybody (real, I mean; from among the author and the readers) has ever claimed that Medaka or Haruhi were perfect characters. If we can all accept that narcissm, self-centeredness, or lack of perspective are flaws, then I think everyone can agree that Haruhi/Medaka were imperfect from the start. I also think that even the authors (or indeed, especially the authors) were definately aware of this from the beginning (even if Medaka Box was initially pretty poor at communicating that). However, my point is then that the things people disliked these characters for were their flaws, not their perfection. Or rather, perhaps with regards to the story in general, what people (including myself) disliked was the fact that these seemed to be sanctioned flaws which were being supported by the events of the story (and by extension, seemingly, the author), which then gave off the appearance that the author considered those traits to be positive. However, the real truth is that in both cases the authors simply wanted to develop a powerful but imperfect character. No claims to perfection were ever truly made. And so in the end, what has bothered us about those characters has always been their flaws, rather than their 'perfection' in any real sense, and it remains that way for those of us who do not trust that the authors will actually correct them.

So I am going to stick with my original claim. Characters who are actually flawless ('perfect') are likeable and interesting, and being one is a good thing. Perfection is positive with regards to character traits, and flaws are negative.

Sorry about not touching on the rest of your posts' content. I don't particularly disagree, but beyond that I am not particularly invested in Medaka or Zen enough that I would dive into analysis of their characters. While I generally find them quite tolerable (because I know they are actively developing), their flaws have bound them to enough of a degree that I am nowhere near an actual fan of them. Actually, as I've probably made pretty obvious earlier in this thread, my single favourite character has always been Unzen from his introduction--he would actually fall under a 'pretty much flawless' description from my perspective.
The main issue was that Medaka acted much as if she was perfect, and when situations did not suit her... they suddenly did by the end, after she'd won over whoever the antagonist was with her words and her overwhelmingly optimistic viewpoint. It always seemed like she succeeded, no matter how half-assed the attempt to fix things looked, as if God had decided to go along with her decision and warped reality to suit her whims.

And honestly, I really don't see perfect, flawless characters as being that interesting... if only because that's like saying that the universe is static, and that nothing ever changes, or that free will doesn't exist. The fact that the universe isn't makes these perfect characters severely imperfect, as they no longer 'fit' in with the world around them unless they do things to either make the world around them static (so that it indeed IS perfectly suited to them), or else the author ends up creating such an unbelievable situation that suspension of disbelief is impossible... which means it's harder to just enjoy the story, as you're too busy picking at the flaws.
Haesslich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 16:12   Link #1950
ZODDGUTS
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Quote:
Issue 10 Bottom 5
Kanata Seven Change
Bakuman
Psyren
Medaka
Neko Wappa

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=629
Medaka in the bottom 2 again. Doesn't look like I'll be changing positions anytime soon... good thing it has Neko Wappa as a safety cushion but once that series is gone...
ZODDGUTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 22:01   Link #1951
AlaAlba
...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
oh this is no good, psyren and bakuman are also low ranked again...

as for medaka, I think it wont be long until it got axed. they changed the genre to a battle manga but the position is still on bottom 2 or so, bad omen
AlaAlba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 22:27   Link #1952
Kunagisa
赤緑黒白
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
Medaka in the bottom 2 again. Doesn't look like I'll be changing positions anytime soon... good thing it has Neko Wappa as a safety cushion but once that series is gone...
... sigh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaAlba View Post
oh this is no good, psyren and bakuman are also low ranked again...

as for medaka, I think it wont be long until it got axed. they changed the genre to a battle manga but the position is still on bottom 2 or so, bad omen
Psyren should've died ages ago, but instead it's alive (even with vomic to boot) ...
Kunagisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 22:54   Link #1953
Iron21
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Medaka is getting a vomic next month......
Iron21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 22:59   Link #1954
Kunagisa
赤緑黒白
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron21 View Post
Medaka is getting a vomic next month......
Is that confirmed really? I saw it in like 1 random blog, and like 1 post in 2ch. Rest all linking that to that one blog. Then the date they have set for it is Feb 5th, which ... according to the vomic main website, has absolutely no information on. You would think they would say something on the website if it's coming in less than a week.
Kunagisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 23:00   Link #1955
Jze0
Hmmm...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Spoiler for ch. 36:
__________________
::MyAnimeList | Miko priestess::
Jze0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-31, 23:39   Link #1956
BlueDo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
This chapter was disappointing.
I thought Zenkichi was gonna come up with an amazing plan to counter the guns.
But it all came down to parry.

How is he supposed to suddenly appear in front of Munakata-senpai when he's 10 meters away?

Haha... you'd think Munakata-senpai would be (extremely) physically strong if he were to hide all those weapons.
BlueDo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-02-01, 00:38   Link #1957
Iron21
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
Is that confirmed really? I saw it in like 1 random blog, and like 1 post in 2ch. Rest all linking that to that one blog. Then the date they have set for it is Feb 5th, which ... according to the vomic main website, has absolutely no information on. You would think they would say something on the website if it's coming in less than a week.
Not sure, I just posted what I saw from MH.

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=558

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=635
Iron21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-02-01, 00:39   Link #1958
Kurosu
KORA!!
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 22
Send a message via MSN to Kurosu
My guess would be that they announced the vomic on the jump tv show they have in japan, I guess they have some kind of info on those kinds of things.
Kurosu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-02-01, 01:01   Link #1959
Kunagisa
赤緑黒白
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
My guess would be that they announced the vomic on the jump tv show they have in japan, I guess they have some kind of info on those kinds of things.
If they announced it on TV, I see no reason to hide it on their website.

You can clearly see Gingitsune is scheduled for the 4th, and Psyren on the 5th, and no Medaka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron21 View Post
No offense against to that guy but I am usually skeptical against information with no linked sources.

And since he didn't post it, here's the rumored VA list, I couldn't find the blog that has a the date labeled to it anymore, but here are the links to the VA list.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/uri_sure/archives/51508759.html
http://changi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/...1264498808/157

黒神めだか/豊口めぐみ
人吉善吉/神谷浩史
不知火半袖/加藤英美里
Kunagisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-02-01, 02:30   Link #1960
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
That is absurdly fast to get a vcomic, not even Mago and Toriko got one so fast and they are the next 2 big Jump series (hopefully Mago can replace Bleach in the "big" 3), so I don't believe it until I see a source.

Can you translate the rumored VA list stuopidget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaAlba View Post
oh this is no good, psyren and bakuman are also low ranked again...
Don't worry about Bakuman, not even Jump is moronic enough to cancel something that sells over 300,000 copies in its first week pre-anime due to a few bottom 5 rankings. Bakuman could rise to 500,000 copies per week after an anime.. most anime adaptions are considered failures if they don't increase the sales of the source material. You should see the figures of the FMA Manga before the Bones tv series and after.. massive, absolutely massive jump.
Westlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.