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Old 2009-06-12, 22:51   Link #101
Mushi
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So if you asked me, I'd vote "hell no" on the remake idea...
^That.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin
This isn't the first show I've seen around these boards where people want a remake of the entire show. It's saying stuff like that with an undue sense of entitlement that comes across as...well, it reflects some of the less appealing traits of fans. Not to mention the reason people want things to be remade is to be "closer to the original source!" even if what was obtained before was perfectly watchable, even if different.
^And that.

I wouldn't care if a 3rd season was entirely original material as long as it built on what's already been established and maintained continuity throughout the season.
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Old 2009-06-12, 23:36   Link #102
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't think we're totally disagreeing with each other, I'm just not sure if you realized the other ways those comments can be seen.
Haha, this may very well be the case. I guess it's my choice in wording that is getting in the way of what I'm trying to say. So let's see if I can do any better.

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Let me try this approach: "Quality" is a loaded word. If I buy a show, it's obviously because I like it (I wouldn't spend the money otherwise). But you postulate here that I may buy it irrespective of how I feel about its "quality". If this is true, then you are suggesting, by extension, that I may like low-quality shows. Now this has turned into a "judgement call": (for the sake of the argument) who are you to tell me that I have poor tastes? Do you see how this can turn personal very quickly? This is why I said it's a non-starter as an argument and should probably be avoided, even if on a purely logical level there's some truth to it.
Yes and no. Someone buying something doesn't necessarily mean that person likes all of that something. A rabid Shana fan may buy all SnS merchandise with Shana in it because he/she loves Shana, but may not care about the story and other characters. And a rabid Yuji fan would…never mind...

As for the postulation, it looks like I should've been clearer. I meant irrespective of one's own judgment of quality. Not anyone else's. Again, someone may buy something without necessarily liking the whole thing.

If, based on your own judgment of quality, you think that something is of a lower quality, and still like it...then yes, that would mean that you like lower-quality series. But that "judgment call" would be one you yourself made. Put more sensibly, it really just shows that people give differing levels of importance to different aspects of a product.

Last edited by Ryuou; 2009-06-13 at 00:44.
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:27   Link #103
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Didn't the movie already service the purists fans?? It was a nice port over. Maybe it's this that incited this movement of originality...
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:45   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
Yes and no. Someone buying something doesn't necessarily mean that person likes all of that something. A rabid Shana fan may buy all SnS merchandise because he/she loves Shana, but may not care about the story and other characters. And a rabid Yuji fan would…never mind.
Okay, but I think it's largely an argument of semantics. You're trying to say that there isn't necessarily a one-to-one correlation between sales and the purchaser's perception of the show's quality. That's of course logically true. Any given purchaser may have a multitude of reasons for purchasing the show, of which "quality" is only one factor. But even once this distinction is granted, you're sort of at a dead end. Was your only point in making this argument to establish the distinction that sales don't necessarily correlate to Quality?

Sales are just about the only objective metric we have access to that measures popularity, and serves as a fairly reliable predictor of what shows will get sequels. And if a show is popular, who cares if it's "Good" with a capital G? If people enjoy it, for whatever reason, great, and the producers will get the message to make more of the same (hence this "New Shana Project 2009"). And that was the real point here: not that all the people who bought it proves it's Good, it's that it proves it's popular the way it is. So all the source-loyalists who claim that that the show has been a complete failure so far and needs to be remade simply because it hasn't been totally faithful to the books have a legitimate opinion, but the evidence of the show's continued popularity, as demonstrated by sales, suggests that their opinion might not matter as much as they wish it would. And that was the real point of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
If, based on your own judgment of quality, you think that something is of a lower quality, and still like it...then yes, that would mean that you like lower-quality series. But that "judgment call" would be one you yourself made.
Fair enough. Speaking of myself, I'm typically the first to admit that my taste in anime sucks by other people's standards -- not that I really care. But, obviously, I buy what I like and selfishly hope that they keep making more. I assume that everyone's the same way to some degree. When it comes right down to it, that "cumulation of personal enjoyment" is really what drives this market. I understand that the source loyalists are also acting out of self-interest, because they want to enjoy the show and believe that they would enjoy it more if it stuck more closely to the original material. My only "objection" is in the way that opinion is often stated -- as if it's some sort of unarguable objective flaw in the show that must be rectified. Truth is, it's all just personal opinion -- I personally thought it was fine the way it was, and I don't think I'm any less "learned" than anyone else. My main wish is that people learn to be a bit less arrogant and presumptive when they state their personal opinions, that's all.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:00   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Terminator98 View Post
Didn't the movie already service the purists fans?? It was a nice port over. Maybe it's this that incited this movement of originality...
The movie only covered the first novel. And a good chunk of it was basically copy and paste from the series, including the original material surrounding Yukari.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:05   Link #106
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The movie only covered the first novel. And a good chunk of it was basically copy and paste from the series, including the original material surrounding Yukari.
Yeah, I know that. But strangely, I find this version better than the anime version. The only sad things is that they removed a few scenes, especially the one where Shana ends up in Saito's bed XD. Still, the fighting was intersting, but shana didn't fight to much... she only "ate"... It feels more as if it was Margery that was doing the work.

Anyways, season 1 was good, season 2 a bit less ( first part of season 2 wasn't to my liking to much ). J.C Staff has learnt it's mistakes... I hope... ( Geesh, it seems that J.C always folows a marvelous season with a crapier one... *points* *Screwed up ZnT, and others... )
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Old 2009-06-13, 02:25   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Terminator98 View Post
Yeah, I know that. But strangely, I find this version better than the anime version. The only sad things is that they removed a few scenes, especially the one where Shana ends up in Saito's bed XD. Still, the fighting was intersting, but shana didn't fight to much... she only "ate"... It feels more as if it was Margery that was doing the work.

Anyways, season 1 was good, season 2 a bit less ( first part of season 2 wasn't to my liking to much ). J.C Staff has learnt it's mistakes... I hope... ( Geesh, it seems that J.C always folows a marvelous season with a crapier one... *points* *Screwed up ZnT, and others... )
too much ZnT for you
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Old 2009-06-13, 03:38   Link #108
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Ooopss.... sorry, happened when was listening to I say yes Wedding verison. Actually, Saito and Yuji have the same voice actors, and they are a bit similiar also, so I often confound them. ( ZnT + SnS cross over FTW )

Anyone aware if the situation in the light novels developed? I'm to lazy to go and buy them... Are still stuck at Yuji becoming... Anakin Skywalker?

Last edited by Terminator98; 2009-06-13 at 11:52.
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Old 2009-06-13, 08:57   Link #109
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3rd season FTW!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:40   Link #110
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
This isn't the first show I've seen around these boards where people want a remake of the entire show. It's saying stuff like that with an undue sense of entitlement that comes across as...well, it reflects some of the less appealing traits of fans. Not to mention the reason people want things to be remade is to be "closer to the original source!" even if what was obtained before was perfectly watchable, even if different.
I have to say, this is the first place I've seen on this entire forum that has people actually supporting the anime material over the novels.

It's fascinating. It's similar to finding one of those little pockets on the internet where people actually like dubs.


And what's wrong with wanting to have something of decent quality for once? I felt that the Konoe arc was terrible, and after the entire Pheles arc involved Yuuji screaming like a little girl at the top of his voice, constantly, I gave up on the show.

I also hear that in the novels, Yuuji is... actually badass. From rather early on.

I'd like to see that, so what's wrong with that?

Although, if they're not going to remake it, I'd much rather see them just build off what they have and go entirely into original-material-land even if it sucks, because from what I understand there's very little chance they can continue to adapt the novels, because of the material they excluded that foreshadowed the recent developments.
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:41   Link #111
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^ There's nothing wrong with wanting to see something animated, but when you start saying it's all the staff's fault and they suck and whatnot just because they didn't cater to your specific personal desires in a show, then you're crossing a line.
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Old 2009-06-14, 00:26   Link #112
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
^ There's nothing wrong with wanting to see something animated, but when you start saying it's all the staff's fault and they suck and whatnot just because they didn't cater to your specific personal desires in a show, then you're crossing a line.
I'm in the group that thinks that adaptations should generally be 1:1, so it's no surprise I think that way. (I also think it's ludicrous to bring product sales into discussions of quality, but...)

There's a LOT of people that think this way, and would agree. Just not in this topic, apparently. As a result, I have no backing for discussion here because I'll be immediately shot down with no support for my arguments.

Regardless, I'll probably give this new season a few episodes just to see what's what.

JC Staff is getting a lot better recently, so...
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Old 2009-06-14, 00:51   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm in the group that thinks that adaptations should generally be 1:1, so it's no surprise I think that way. (I also think it's ludicrous to bring product sales into discussions of quality, but...)

There's a LOT of people that think this way, and would agree. Just not in this topic, apparently. As a result, I have no backing for discussion here because I'll be immediately shot down with no support for my arguments.
Well as I've said that's your opinion, but that doesn't mean you can go blasting everything that isn't perfectly according to its original material. And well, if you have a better, hard source of guaging a show's quality besides fan opinion on forums (a good portion of which is just whining/annoying trolls or rabid fanboys), then sales are all we've got. And they certainly aren't a bad guage; I still say that the general populace isn't so ridiculously stupid as to buy $60 DVDs with only a handful of episodes of a show they think was bad. There will be some wierdos, but as screwed up a world as it is out there, it's not that screwed up.

It's perfectly fine if you don't like a show, but don't act like it's a fact the show sucks just because it doesn't cater to your tastes. That's just your opinion. It doesn't matter how many people share your thoughts, as it still doesn't mean you're the majority. I know a great many people in other threads (and not just on this forum) who share my thoughts on a great many things, such as "we think GSD was a bad show," who don't speak up simply to avoid arguments with hater-trolls or rabid fanboys depending on the show, but we don't start saying the people behind the show suck just because of whether or not the show is according to our tastes.
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Old 2009-06-14, 02:51   Link #114
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I have to say, this is the first place I've seen on this entire forum that has people actually supporting the anime material over the novels.

It's fascinating. It's similar to finding one of those little pockets on the internet where people actually like dubs.
You know, I'd thought we were finally getting to the point where dubs were actually starting to be considered a legitimate alternative to subs. Silly me...
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Old 2009-06-14, 05:05   Link #115
Mushi
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Anyone aware if the situation in the light novels developed? I'm to lazy to go and buy them... Are still stuck at Yuji becoming... Anakin Skywalker?
This thread is for the announcement of a third anime season. There is a novel thread if you feel the need to discuss that.

Quote:
I have to say, this is the first place I've seen on this entire forum that has people actually supporting the anime material over the novels.
The anime is more readily available than the novels. Which is another thing that's amusing to me. The novels can only be enjoyed by those who can read Japanese (past vol. 3, if you include the Baki-Tsuki translation). Why do those people come to an english anime forum to complain about the lack of adherence to source material when most people who see the anime can't even read the novels?
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Old 2009-06-14, 10:40   Link #116
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Mushi, I do believe that some people here must know how to read japanese... It's usually them that critic the anime I suppose. Also, when readin even the first few chapters of the novels, you kind of get a feeling that it is better than the anime, and you loath "HELL, IT SHOULD'VE BEEN LIKE THAT IN THE ANIME!!!".

I myself experienced this when I saw an anime and I immediately read it's novel afterwards. I'll be reading the SnS novels soon to see for myself.
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Old 2009-06-14, 15:34   Link #117
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Mushi, I do believe that some people here must know how to read japanese...
Yes, I know that many forum members actually live in Japan and get all that good stuff first hand. And I'm not trying to say I think there's anything wrong with that, they add a lot of value to the community, in fact. It's just a little odd, to me, that an english forum becomes a dumping grounds for something that is (mostly) only understood by those who know Japanese.

Quote:
I myself experienced this when I saw an anime and I immediately read it's novel afterwards. I'll be reading the SnS novels soon to see for myself.
I understand the frustration/irritation that comes with it. I haven't read a lot of manga, but I've seen enough to realize that anime adaptations can be way off. If there's a favorite scene from some source material, that a fan would really love to see "walking and talking," and it gets left out or drastically changed, that could be a huge let down.

That's why I prefer to read source material after seeing anime. I like getting the extra details that can only be included in written formats. That way it feels like something is being added, not left out. It feels like reliving the story with extra insight.
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Old 2009-06-14, 15:39   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
The anime is more readily available than the novels. Which is another thing that's amusing to me. The novels can only be enjoyed by those who can read Japanese (past vol. 3, if you include the Baki-Tsuki translation). Why do those people come to an english anime forum to complain about the lack of adherence to source material when most people who see the anime can't even read the novels?
If it helps, some (many? most?) of those complaining haven't actually read the novels for themselves either. They base their opinions on summaries and second-hand information from people generally setting out to prove that the original material is better than the adaptation. So it has become a sort of insular culture in and of itself; maybe we can call it the "By the Book Club".
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Old 2009-06-14, 17:54   Link #119
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Considering that attitudes like that always crop up, it leaves me wondering why there are so many posts in the "What [x] (usually manga) do you want to be animated?" threads. People either not end up appreciating the difference between mediums, being fearful of something new or just flat-out complaining. It's a bit disheartening when so many people, in relation to the anime of Show X, only end up saying "don't watch it". It's like the forum is swallowing itself up.
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Old 2009-06-14, 20:13   Link #120
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Considering that attitudes like that always crop up, it leaves me wondering why there are so many posts in the "What [x] (usually manga) do you want to be animated?" threads. People either not end up appreciating the difference between mediums, being fearful of something new or just flat-out complaining. It's a bit disheartening when so many people, in relation to the anime of Show X, only end up saying "don't watch it". It's like the forum is swallowing itself up.
All I can say is, I know how you feel. Keep in mind, though, forums will always tend to attract those who feel they have the most to say about a given topic. These tend to be people who want to critique and criticize. If you look at the episode polls, the average rating for most anime we have sub-forums for is quite high, with most shows at least 8 or "very good". So I think it's largely that this group of the forum likes to make themselves heard because they feel they have gripes that "they alone" (as novel/manga readers or game players) feel unique qualified to discuss. I see no evidence whatsoever that this group represents a majority; they just seem to make the most noise in certain shows that don't closely follow the original text (and these same people tend to make the same arguments repeatedly whenever it comes up).

So in other words, I don't think the forum is swallowing itself up with negativity. I just think those of us who enjoy anime for what it is (not resent it for what it isn't) need to be a bit more vocal and articulate to balance the discussion.
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