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Old 2010-03-10, 03:35   Link #1301
Nemesis
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Yeah, but,even if i do take away my standards, what is being offered is still pitifully little.
And iam reviewing the 'Kampfer manga of course.
But still, this is Seinen, it is fine to show blood or clothing damage.

But point 5 is the main reason for the hate.We are getting meager returns for our time.
And how can there be a product that is so uncompetitive?

I'm not demanding unreasonable things like a coherent plot, i just want more actual substantial content for our time.

Hmph, its a really pity surerman isnt here to lighten the mood.
EDIT: since Hellraiser explained it well,*sigh* Whatever, lets wait for the final volume.
I suddenly don't feel like explaining the other problems already.
Guess a light novel can't be compared to manga.Well, its better to stick to territory i 'm more familiar with.
Seems Light novels aren't for me.

Well ,go on ahead and have fun guys.

Last edited by Nemesis; 2010-03-10 at 04:00.
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Old 2010-03-10, 04:55   Link #1302
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellraiser85 View Post
@darknemo2000
shizuku is portrayed as the coolest character of the series, no wonder she's so popular, just like emosasuke is in naruto, vejita in dragonball, crocodile/zoro in one piece, inner moka in r+v.
and the same may apply for k akane because she's a tsundere (i bet she comes in second place for popularity).
for what concerns the popularity of manga series: even a shitty wsj series will sell more than most good seinens (lol people seems to be more attacted by fanservice rather than plot afterall), so i wouldn't base everything on "which sells more?" , because i don't think it's such a simple matter
Why does Tabitha never beat Louise? She is so cool character, and she is even built after ZOMG Rei, if being cool is enough to make it popular and she gets her focus with side-stories etc...

And how come Naruto, Luffy etc beat those so very cool characters in popularity? Just because they are main?

Well Akane is definitely more main than Shizuku has much more attention so why the hell she is so much lagging behind Shizuku?

It doesn't matter if she is the second between other female cast in popularity because it is like saying she is the biggest of ants while standing it against an elephant.

The popularity difference is this big. Just being cool does not explain why the character takes over the much more focused characters, one of which is a halfbaked-tsundere who is supposed to bring much better fight, but could not.

Its because the whole plotline and the whole other characters are very generic. Shizuku who is not even the most focused character outshines them, and not just because she is cool but because she is surrounded by a generic characters to begin with.

Yes certain types are more popular than the others (Tsunderes for example) but it does not explain the big gap we have in Kampfer.

And why do you think mangaka's or novelist write the stories? Just to write? To express themselves? Art for the sake of an art? Then go back to renaissance and postulate these dreamy things, but in this age it is much more connected to economy, like it or not.

It is not just the pleasure it is also a work and it is natural to try to earn from it, and works 'success' is the economical one, because thats the best measure we have, as we cannot look into the future and see which novel outlived which and which became 'classic'. We can only go for best-sellers and call them best, because other 'best' would be just your personal measure that doesn't have even a slightest value on wider basis.
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Old 2010-03-10, 06:29   Link #1303
hellraiser85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Why does Tabitha never beat Louise? She is so cool character, and she is even built after ZOMG Rei, if being cool is enough to make it popular and she gets her focus with side-stories etc...

And how come Naruto, Luffy etc beat those so very cool characters in popularity? Just because they are main?
it's called screentime, but no, tabitha is definetely not cool, she's just plain and boring lol. the only cool chara in znt is saito, and only when he kick ass. btw rei is on a whole different league and , above all, she's a bwb (=babe with boobs).

even so i only said cool characters are very popular, not the most popular (there are different circumstances): personally i think sasuke wouldn't even deserve the 15th place in naruto, but , just by looking at a lot of usernames in manga forums, he's pretty much everywhere. in one piece luffy is simply too awesome.;-)

but let's get back to shizuku: she's cool blooded, she's got authority in school, she's rich, she can do pretty much anything , she never loses and she's even older... all these qualities build up her coolness. if you add that she has even a little more screentime than the other girls..it's kinda natural that such a character would easily still the readers approval.

ah i think I'll ask just in case, what is that popularity poll about? the manga, the anime or the novel?

Quote:
The popularity difference is this big. Just being cool does not explain why the character takes over the much more focused characters, one of which is a halfbaked-tsundere who is supposed to bring much better fight, but could not.
like i wrote above, shizuku got as much focus as anybody else (or even more), and of course she's better in fights, she has been fighting since her first year in high school... akane's fights are much more funny if you ask me and they are definitely longer (well shizuku is just so strong she ends them in a flash:-)

Quote:
And why do you think mangaka's or novelist write the stories? Just to write? To express themselves? Art for the sake of an art? Then go back to renaissance and postulate these dreamy things, but in this age it is much more connected to economy, like it or not.
i guess you didn't get my point.
what i was trying to say is that even a shitty series can sell a lot if it deals with popular genres and popular situations (and if it is advertized the right way), the same applies for movies and music of course.
kampfer doesn't fit that category entirely so i feel that it's too superficial to rely on selling rates alone to judge its quality.
and you are definitely wrong if you believe that all mangaka and novelist care that much about money when they create a series, (that's the editor's job already) otherwise there would be almost no seinen series around.

Quote:
as we cannot look into the future and see which novel outlived which and which became 'classic'. We can only go for best-sellers and call them best, because other 'best' would be just your personal measure that doesn't have even a slightest value on wider basis.
either ways of judging are wrong imho.
i think the best way to judge something would be to read it and then express each other opinion , adding reaons of course
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Old 2010-03-10, 07:39   Link #1304
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
........Okay, you just made lose all respect for you.
So you want to declare a war again?Make no mistake, its gonna be you who started this.
No, there won't be war. In fact, I won't even read the rest of your note. I'll just extend my ignore list. This nonsense went on long enough.
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Old 2010-03-10, 07:45   Link #1305
Mentar
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Hellraiser: Did you get to read 11 in the meantime? Just curious
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Old 2010-03-10, 07:50   Link #1306
Nemesis
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..........Fine with you.I'm not even trying to antagonize someone with my comments and behavior , but you............

My,my, you really just want to just cause some trouble with me.
So what if i don't think the same as you?
You are the only one who's getting worked up you know.

I was just being honest in my opinion that Kampfer isn't worth the time even for the sake of Shizuku.
You need to actually read what i am saying.But oh well,i don't need to contend with a poor little guy who can't accept other people thinking differently from him.

I mean, I'm just being honest here,i won't really pay for a bad product.You can say how good a certain character is in the product, but if it fails to be of satisfaction,its not worth investing in.I mean, really,you think the only way this thread is supposed to go in, is simply Shizuku fanboyism?

Oh god, where's surerman.....he would have been able to solve this.

Last edited by Nemesis; 2010-03-10 at 08:02.
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Old 2010-03-10, 08:53   Link #1307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellraiser85 View Post
ah i think I'll ask just in case, what is that popularity poll about? the manga, the anime or the novel?
None, I am talking about merchandise sells, because polls are rather unreliable. And merchandise sells do not really depend on solely just the anime or the novels.

And besides Akane got much more screentime in novels anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellraiser85 View Post
i guess you didn't get my point.
what i was trying to say is that even a shitty series can sell a lot if it deals with popular genres and popular situations (and if it is advertized the right way), the same applies for movies and music of course.
kampfer doesn't fit that category entirely so i feel that it's too superficial to rely on selling rates alone to judge its quality.
and you are definitely wrong if you believe that all mangaka and novelist care that much about money when they create a series, (that's the editor's job already) otherwise there would be almost no seinen series around.
And how do you know if the series is shitty or not? If you are not god, then your judgment (shitty or not) has no value whatsoever.

There is no other objective way to judge quality. Like it or not, seels are the best way to tell what is good, what readers like and what not.

If To-Love-Ru sells better than Kampfer then it is certainly a better product, because more people enjoy it and manga is an entertainment business, where they key is to entertain.

And the only way the mangaka would not care about the popularity if he had some other big income sources, needless to say that the majority of them are not like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellraiser85 View Post
either ways of judging are wrong imho.
i think the best way to judge something would be to read it and then express each other opinion , adding reaons of course
I just did, and used the difference in sells as a support for the opinion.
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Old 2010-03-10, 16:24   Link #1308
hellraiser85
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And besides Akane got much more screentime in novels anyway.
she got the same screen time as shizuku at most in the novel(i'm pretty sure shizuku got more "pages" alone with natsuru), or maybe you are adding k akane and normal akane's screentime together? (they are not the same character anyway).

Quote:
There is no other objective way to judge quality. Like it or not, seels are the best way to tell what is good, what readers like and what not.
i'm cool with the first statement but i think you are definitely wrong on the second one. Indeed your pov can apply on editors or mangaka themselves, but absolutely not on critic readers. if we use your logic then gender-bending manga/novels would all suck by default since its genre is not popular and its titles sell less compared to other common genres; and even by that standard kampfer should be considered a very good series because it sold so much it got a manga and anime adaptation (a lot of novels don't even reach that point)

Quote:
And how do you know if the series is shitty or not? If you are not god, then your judgment (shitty or not) has no value whatsoever.
imho a shitty manga is a plotless and boring series . Most people agree that tolove ru fits well in this definition (including some wsj editors , since they forced the author to end it at last) , but you are totally right , it's only my opinion..to be more accurate, everything i write in this forum is just my opinion, there would be no point in discussing otherwise, so please feel free to assume a "imho" next to each of my statements.
Personally i only like kotegawa yui's character in to love-ru because she's a tsundere (of course.-) and she evolves a lot during the story, unlike all the other characters , but this is ot, i guess.

Quote:
I just did, and used the difference in sells as a support for the opinion.
ehm, so you are saying "yea i read the novel and i didn't like this series, because it didn't sell well", am i correct? of course i'm joking, what i want to know is what disapointed you so much in kampfer (novel) to label it as fail. were mikoto and k akane's characters really so boring in your opinion?

Quote:
None, I am talking about merchandise sells, because polls are rather unreliable. And merchandise sells do not really depend on solely just the anime or the novels.
rotfl i hope you are not talking about figures and the likes... i think i don't need to tell you why those gadgets have nothing to do with the novels...

@mentar no, i still haven't read vol 11 (other than the first 26 pages present on a selling site), sigh
p.s. and neither vol 12
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Old 2010-03-10, 17:00   Link #1309
Darknemo2000
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Every single characters beginning the main lead and ending the half-baked tsundere. They all seem so plain, have so little background and are so static to the hell. It would be nice if they had somewhat great personalities to begin with but they do not.

And what is worse plot is not helping them at all. There are stories were characters are weak on purpose to focus on the plot more (like IMO Sword Art Online novels are), but in this case neither plot nor characters are good and the only value that the series seems to have is Shizuku and the sale rate differences between her and any other Kampfer character seems to confirm that.
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Old 2010-03-10, 20:40   Link #1310
Nemesis
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Looks like my points are finally getting across.

I mean Kampfer has pretty much has no merits,and has big flaws in it.I find that extremely abominable,ya know,other than simply just unsatisfied with this story.

1.The Protagonist and the main cast are mainly unconcerned and unrelated with the main plot
Natsuru and the rest have not even moved much of a muscle to deal with the Kampfer wars plot.Why?Because they don't have much reason to.

While they stagnate there and gather dust, the rest of the characters have already moved on in the plot.

2.The Love Comedy isn't that well done
While i may not have really seen much of it, but i can say there isn't enough of it,there needs to be more of it.


3.The Fanservice isn't done tastefully enough,and there needs to be more of it

I mean, while it is a light novel not focused entirely on ecchi,its still a fact it is not very competitive compared to other works in its genres is compared to.

4.The whole Kampfer Wars plot and battle ritual doesn't work anyway.
a.We all know there is no reason or motivation for the Kampfers to fight anyway.
b.Natsuru can't be some ace in the hole for the Moderators plans,because the Kampfer Wars were started a long time ago.
c.The whole reason for the Kampfer Wars does not really work that well.
Proxy war for people to settle things in another world?
Unfortunately, while the representatives fight,what are the people in the other world going to do in the meantime?The battle royale has at least gone on for more than a year.
And they are stated to be in dire straits of sorts if i remember right.
d.Sakura isn't taking this seriously even.By logic,she created the White Kampfers really late.In fact, i think none of the Moderators are taking this job seriously.

Last edited by Nemesis; 2010-03-10 at 21:38.
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Old 2010-03-10, 20:51   Link #1311
Forbin
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They are getting across?

I like Kampfer, it's funny, it's dumb, and it makes me laugh.
__________________
My Favorite Anime Quotes Courtesy of Answerman of ANN:

1) By and Large...they are ** and *****.
2) What kind of girls do Anime Otaku males want? ..................... Female.
3) The odds are good, that the goods are odd.
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Old 2010-03-10, 21:25   Link #1312
Nemesis
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All i have been trying to say is that Kampfer not really that good as its fans think it is.Its probably not worth it unless you are really bored.
Its definitely not gonna be among the best works.
There are lots of other stories that do things better than it really.
Kampfer just pales in comparison.

The facts would have to speak for themselves anyway,so i may as well state them.
Its on a bellow average-low average scale for me.It wasn't bad, just that it wasn't good.

Last edited by Nemesis; 2010-03-10 at 21:51.
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Old 2010-03-11, 01:43   Link #1313
hellraiser85
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Every single characters beginning the main lead and ending the half-baked tsundere. They all seem so plain, have so little background and are so static to the hell. It would be nice if they had somewhat great personalities to begin with but they do not.

And what is worse plot is not helping them at all. There are stories were characters are weak on purpose to focus on the plot more (like IMO Sword Art Online novels are), but in this case neither plot nor characters are good and the only value that the series seems to have is Shizuku and the sale rate differences between her and any other Kampfer character seems to confirm that.
I respect your opinion, since you read the novel, but i think all of them have far too "big" personalities: mikoto is the type to intrude into the boy's section of the school and go see natsuru without breaking a sweat, break in his house with her lock picking skills and, when she gets mad, trying to strangle him; also she has definitely no problem quarrelling with shizuku (and she's also quite the scheming type). akane in her normal form has not much personality at the beginning but she gains a lot of self confidence during the story and toward the end she even manages to chase away shizuku during a date with natsuru. k akane, well... her strong personality becomes even a problem (too bad she didn't get enough screentime, that's my only complaint).

ah I'm also following sao, it's got a really good plot:-) so i see your point, although in that case i think there's a simpler reason for characters to not have a proper background.

@nemesis

1- that's right, other than shizuku, no one else seems to care much about the kampfer war and its secrets lol (especially natsuru, he goes to sakura's house thinking about introducing himself to her parents instead of ending the kampfer wars and unveiling everything ;-)
2- personally i've yet to read a better love comedy than this one; if you haven't i suggest you read vol 8.5 and 9.5, they are probably the best expression of love comedy in this novel
3- if you're talking about the manga (like in your previous post) then i got nothing to say, while i already replied about the novel version
4- a) yea i agee, i also always wandered what made the other kampfer believe their messengers so easily and motivates them to fight and murder fellow students..(only the white kampfer have an excuse)
b) the kampfer wars started some yars before (when sakura was in middle school, but i don't remember clearly), but without doubts shizuku is the strongest kampfer ever existed and she may easily take down all the other kampfer if she waned, so I clearly understand why natsuru, the only person able to manipulate her, is considered the key of the war
c) i might agree with you here, but since it was hinted that the burnt-lion plushies was hiding something and i didn't read vol 11-12, i cna't comment this yet (i will afte reading the last 2 vls but i guess it will take forever to find them uploaded somewhere sigh :-( )
-the peaple in those 2 words are still fighting in the meantime
-it has never been confirmed but i think theres' only 1 moderator
-sakura's role is to preserve the neutrality of the kampfer wars ,and having an external factor like the white kampfers join in certanily wouldn't help (it's like a referee interfering in a soccer match by intercepting the ball and passing it to another player, if you get what i mean)
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Old 2010-03-11, 01:49   Link #1314
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and yet thos ebig perosnalities are so small in terms of popularity. How come? It's not like Shizuku has more focus, its not like she has better battles, and though she's cool other characters would still be able to put up a good fight maybe would lose but not as pathetically as they are now...

And Kampfer would be much more popular (it has fanservice and it usually is a mass attraction to begin with) if it was made from such a great strong characters as you try to portray, but the fact is - Kampfer is not very popular and Shizuku dominates other characters by way too big margin that you could explain as 'being collest from other big characters).
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Old 2010-03-11, 02:15   Link #1315
hellraiser85
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
and yet thos ebig perosnalities are so small in terms of popularity. How come? It's not like Shizuku has more focus, its not like she has better battles, and though she's cool other characters would still be able to put up a good fight maybe would lose but not as pathetically as they are now...

And Kampfer would be much more popular (it has fanservice and it usually is a mass attraction to begin with) if it was made from such a great strong characters as you try to portray, but the fact is - Kampfer is not very popular and Shizuku dominates other characters by way too big margin that you could explain as 'being collest from other big characters).
i'm telling you merchandise depends almost entirely (95%) on the anime... and in the anime shizuku got much more focus than all the other girls.
most of k akane moments have simply been cut in favour of shizuku, the same goes for her gags and anime quotes... but that's not all ,because mikoto has been reduced to a side-character and her personality has been totally changed (she's portrayed as a very passive character in the anime ; i remember someone wondered in the anime thread if mikoto was even romantically interested in natsuru) and so is shizuku: she seldom smiled , changed her voice tone or even her facial expression in the novel (countless times natsuru compared shizuku to a lifeless doll in the novel) while in the anime she was so full of emotions. that's why i 'm not amazed at all that shizuku got that much more popular with merchandise sales
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Old 2010-03-15, 23:56   Link #1316
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Kampfer Vol 4 RAW jap is out in Raw Paradise web site
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Old 2010-03-20, 00:55   Link #1317
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above me..
I prever from Charkan and the gang one

oh btw..here's my desktop for a while, feel free to steal it if you want


sorry long no see, I kinda busy since a lot of old friends come to this lil' house and create a small war between hitman prisoner ahh...like old days

oh btw..
for Nemesis and Mentar -bro

I see enough war this month...can we just have peaceful discussion here?
my artist for the doujin dead with hole on his skull, while the officer ambush me in the toilet hope to kill me
only to be disappointed...why human become extremely emotional this year? because the Tiger spirit?

Last edited by surerman; 2010-03-20 at 01:10.
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Old 2010-03-20, 01:57   Link #1318
Nemesis
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He's the one who started the personal attacks first,i was simply reviewing my personal experience with this story,which turned out quite less than even satisfactory.

He had no right to even try talk about my personal stance of this story.
It wasn't satisfying to me.That's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
No, there won't be war. In fact, I won't even read the rest of your note. I'll just extend my ignore list. This nonsense went on long enough.
Simple outright disrespect.I then proceeded on to justify my claims,but he just chooses to just be an irrational idiot who can't stand someone being different.
At the beginning of this, i saw everyone went "SHIZUKU,SHIZUKU!!",so i decided to bandwagon with this fandom in it.But how long can being a fanboy last?
I remember i was here to see a story,not a character.

The funny thing is,THERE WASN'T AN ACTUAL REAL REASON FOR LIKING THIS STORY even among the fans.


And i never so called "betrayed" this fandom, by the time i asked whether there was anything good was to come next a few months ago,i already had suspicions that there was something odd.

And there was.


Surerman, its just so sad, do you think hating things is fun?Of course not.

I don't know, right now, i have already refunded myself from the loss this has caused me.It doesn't hurt anymore.Or i should see this to the end.I just feel someone should do a unbiased review of this story.

Last edited by Nemesis; 2010-03-20 at 02:15.
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Old 2010-03-20, 02:30   Link #1319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post


Surerman, its just so sad, do you think hating things is fun?Of course not.

I don't know, right now, i have already refunded myself from the loss this has caused me.It doesn't hurt anymore.Or i should see this to the end.I just feel someone should do a unbiased review of this story.
nope! hate is something unpleasant when fall upon you, but it's also a gift for human...if it's land on place.

We, killers, never hate or at least try to not hate anything, even our victims.
We just do the job, feel free to hate me if I kill your mom infront of you, but I didn't do it because I hate her, but because my job...and I LOVE MY JOB

anyway...Mentar ignored Nemesis post, Nemesis read Mentar post and even get angrier than before. Mentar stress free...and Nemesis still hurt because his opinion gone to the void (funny...I still read all of it tough)

I know where this has been started...the suck of the novel storyline...and to make it worse, the anime give finishing blow to Nemesis-bro so he start the ranting, and make Mentar-bro and others annoyed.
-----------------
try to pour water to the fire.....

any scanlation of this manga released this month? raw stuck in chapt 20 in Chinese while vol 4 still in mangahelpers.com (I can't download it...too slow)

oh! after looking at the cover of 12th novel...............
Tachibana-san?, may I have your address?, I have something for you
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Old 2010-03-20, 02:43   Link #1320
Nemesis
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He's just wanting to make this Serious Business.
When nobody is taking this that seriously.

His "Fuck off Hater" was absolutely pointless.He could have just waited for someone who read the novels to debate with my points upon the final review.

I never review things until i think it is time.And before that, i was simply posting and discussing from a different stance in this thread.
People can say why Kampfer is worth it,i can also say why it isn't worth it.
There are two sides to everything,I'm presenting the other side of it.

Heh, whatever, lets wait for the final volume.
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