AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-09-10, 22:40   Link #201
Kytherno
12th Supernova
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Foxy arc
I don't know much about the Health care system, but from watching sicko, it seems like it sucks. Big time.

I mean, in the movie, they show themselves going to britain where you don't pay the hospitals. The hospitals pay you, if you had to pay for transportation there.

They even went into cuba, to get $0.05 inhalers.

And what confuses me, is that there's commercials on tv that say stuff like "Free health care will create tons of debt and make taxes spike upwards". If that's so, how come France and Britain are not in a depression r anything?

Is it gonna be more dangerous for us than britain or France? And someone correct me if i'm wrong, because I'm getting very confused right about now. >.<
__________________
nomnomnom...bunnies found this oversized signature crisp and delicious!

^ it's things like that, that make me feel liek having too big of a sig more often.
Kytherno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-10, 22:42   Link #202
ZephyrLeanne
On a sabbatical
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kytherno View Post
I don't know much about the Health care system, but from watching sicko, it seems like it sucks. Big time.

I mean, in the movie, they show themselves going to britain where you don't pay the hospitals. The hospitals pay you, if you had to pay for transportation there.

They even went into cuba, to get $0.05 inhalers.

And what confuses me, is that there's commercials on tv that say stuff like "Free health care will create tons of debt and make taxes spike upwards". If that's so, how come France and Britain are not in a depression r anything?

Is it gonna be more dangerous for us than britain or France? And someone correct me if i'm wrong, because I'm getting very confused right about now. >.<
I don't know how long queues are in US for healthcare, but UK/France do have VERY long queues. So...
__________________
ZephyrLeanne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 07:21   Link #203
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
I don't know how long queues are in US for healthcare, but UK/France do have VERY long queues. So...
The US has queues and prioritization as well... only difference is its run by for-profit unelected corporates who get bonuses for denying, reducing, or deferring treatment.

Also, the UK/France queues are prioritized by urgency (as are Canada and the US). Its called triage and all healthcare systems do it.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 09:16   Link #204
ZephyrLeanne
On a sabbatical
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The US has queues and prioritization as well... only difference is its run by for-profit unelected corporates who get bonuses for denying, reducing, or deferring treatment.

Also, the UK/France queues are prioritized by urgency (as are Canada and the US). Its called triage and all healthcare systems do it.
So, in other words, if you ain't economically important, and even you are at like red-level triage (a number of Japanese hospitals use color code triage), you ain't getting no treatment in the US? For UK, it's mainly a case of doctors stretching visitation timing so that they can charge the higher rate for long consultations, which is about the only factor.

That's why I advocate a tiered say system based on seniority and department, rather than pay-per-job. When I was in the US, I used the services of that hospital (almost solely!) because service standards were way better.

I think it was in the New York Times some time ago.
__________________
ZephyrLeanne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 14:03   Link #205
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Come on. Everyone knows that going Swede is the best, no? Who cares what Jon Steward says about Sweden being Socialist hell. Obama could prove the Republicans right, yet improve healthcare in the long term with Swede healthcare.

Or we could bring down costs massively, Singapore style. The federal government could buy over about 2/3 of all hospitals and restructure them, and pay all the doctors a certain amount, based on seniority and department, rather than jobs done.
Duuuuuuude, government actually competing with private insurance is one thing. But taking over private buisness? That would be WW3 on a domestic scale! Some people are shaking in their boots just for hearing "government funded healthcare", thinking that will we go Communist.
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 15:53   Link #206
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
Most of it is the past generation indoctrinated under McCarthy style propaganda, so let them tremble while other people do more useful things.
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 17:20   Link #207
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
ok, 'bama says NO healthcare for illegals,
but will people be eligible under his plan if they only have green card/H-1B visa?
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 17:35   Link #208
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
ok, 'bama says NO healthcare for illegals,
but will people be eligible under his plan if they only have green card/H-1B visa?
1. H-B1/Green Card are not illegal
2. they pay taxes like everyone else

Answer: YES
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 17:52   Link #209
Gin
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In your mom's pants
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
ok, 'bama says NO healthcare for illegals
Which is perfectly reasonable since Obama is president of the USA and not el presidente de Mexico. Unless we annexed Mexico and I missed it.
__________________
I hate most of you.
Gin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 18:11   Link #210
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gin View Post
Which is perfectly reasonable since Obama is president of the USA and not el presidente de Mexico. Unless we annexed Mexico and I missed it.
They're already getting lots of low cost/free healthcare under existing social programs. Unless those are restructured and/or deleted with Obama's new plan, I don't foresee the illegals getting any less than they get now.

And for many of them working for unscrupulous businesses, under the table and below minimum wage, the "free" healthcare is actually free, since they don't pay income taxes.

Another reason why income tax should go away forever, and the government should operate on consumption taxes only. ^^;
__________________
synaesthetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 18:32   Link #211
Gin
Senior Member
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In your mom's pants
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Another reason why income tax should go away forever, and the government should operate on consumption taxes only. ^^;
Ron Paul 2k8
__________________
I hate most of you.
Gin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 18:40   Link #212
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
believe me... you can overstay in the US with expired H-1Bs without fear of getting caught by ICE. You just gotta know the right city/state/county to stay in, connections, and obviously you can't use the airport. The only way out of this limbo is to marry an american citizen, you gotta be sincere to your new husband/wife or ICE will get you
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 18:45   Link #213
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
I have no problem with open borders at all. Closed borders are bad for everyone. Isolationist policies never ended well for any nation.

The problem I have is that I'm forced to pay taxes to provide services to people who aren't paying into the system. If you're not paying into the system, you shouldn't get the services the taxes pay for. Period. I don't care what color or nationality you are.

Hopefully any changes to our healthcare system will do just that--prevent abuse of the system.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 18:53   Link #214
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I think the whole illegal immigration situation stinks -- they shouldn't be coming across without some processing, our employers shouldn't be hiring them, it shouldn't be so damned hard for people trying to come in the RIGHT way to get in (I know too many Indian, Asian and other immigrant engineers who've been waiting for *years* and getting their paperwork lost by the INS. And those are bright trained workers we'd LIKE to have here).
not only that... you have immigration lawyers messing up big time

(this was a big news within immigrant community in so-cal 2 years ago)
http://vdare.com/sanchez/070324_fraud.htm

Those waiting for green cards are sill in limbo (great... gotta pay to extend H1B visa again)

If ya want smooooth transition from H1B -> green card -> and finally Citizenship
(for thje 1st two) you must pay top dollar for immigration lawyer.
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 20:43   Link #215
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
not only that... you have immigration lawyers messing up big time

(this was a big news within immigrant community in so-cal 2 years ago)
http://vdare.com/sanchez/070324_fraud.htm

Those waiting for green cards are sill in limbo (great... gotta pay to extend H1B visa again)

If ya want smooooth transition from H1B -> green card -> and finally Citizenship
(for thje 1st two) you must pay top dollar for immigration lawyer.
i remind my customer when they complain about their premium.

"You get what you pay for."
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 21:29   Link #216
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kytherno View Post
And what confuses me, is that there's commercials on tv that say stuff like "Free health care will create tons of debt and make taxes spike upwards". If that's so, how come France and Britain are not in a depression r anything?

Is it gonna be more dangerous for us than britain or France? And someone correct me if i'm wrong, because I'm getting very confused right about now. >.<
With nearly any of those commercials that say that it'd be disastrous for America to switch over to socialized healthcare, take a look at the bottom or at the end of the advertisement to see who funded it. I'd bet you tons of money that it's either a health insurance company, a group of health insurance companies, or a "group of concerned citizens" who are somehow tied to a health insurance company(ies).

There's no reason why it would be worse for us than Canada, Britain, France, or any other country that has it. I would not be surprised if, immediately following the switch, we found that we had to pay more than they were, as people with conditions who were initially holding off on seeing their doctor due to the costs made use of healthcare services. However, the end result would be positive compared to what we have now. Preventive medicine will always be cheaper (and kinder to the outcome of the patient) than would waiting until the patient crashes due to a full-blown illness, and is faced with either being treated immediately or dying/losing some major functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
I don't know how long queues are in US for healthcare, but UK/France do have VERY long queues. So...
As Vexx pointed out, there are queue lines everywhere. The real trouble is that it seems to me that a lot of people who are against socialized medicine have never been to a hospital. They buy into the belief that you'll end up waiting forever in those other countries and that in the USA you'll spend no time waiting by comparison. There are even anecdotal stories here and there about people who cross over from Canada to have an operation in the USA simply because it was "taking too long" in Canada.

I also sat in on a panel given by two specialists to a group of medical students. They stated that part of the problem that feeds into this perception that America is better in terms of timing has to do with people playing doctor themselves. If the medical diagnosis is that certain things (such as an MRI) are not necessary, then you either won't get it or you'll be put on the long waiting line in a place like Canada. Yet many people feel that they need practically every test run (and without a moment's delay), and under the American system, those who can afford it can do that.

It doesn't help that many doctors admit to practicing "defensive medicine" (that is, ordering tests that probably aren't necessary, in order to stave off a potential malpractice lawsuit). That drives up the cost of care for the patient, and also gets the patient used to the idea that they really need these millions of tests to be performed.

Really, if people tried to use hospital services themselves they might feel differently. I know that I did, after I went to a specialist to examine a strange lump that had formed on my body. I spent approximately 30 minutes with the doctor on one day, 15 minutes at the follow-up appointment; I underwent two tests from the radiology department and a number of others from the toxicology department. For what probably amounted to an hour or two of time, I was hit with about four bills (because each department charges separately) that totaled around $200 (maybe more, maybe less - I don't recall the exact number). That was with my insurance company covering around 70% or so of the costs, even.

$200 - maybe not a lot to some of you reading this, but that's a damn expensive proposition just for checking something out. (For those who are wondering, the lump disappeared before I got my results back, and all results basically showed nothing special.) If it had been cancer or something else of concern, it would have been $200 well spent - the treatment would have been much simpler (read: cheaper) and my likely outcome would have been much better. Yet given that experience and those costs, how likely would I be to get another lump checked out versus just sitting on it and waiting to see if it goes away by itself? I think the answer is obvious - I'd rather sit on it, because even with insurance, at this point in my life, that's very expensive. That's a failing of the system right there, because it costs the system less time and resources to treat things that are caught early. Yet by making early diagnoses so expensive, it encourages people to wait until they're really being affected by their disease, at which point the treatment will have to be much more intensive. That's really not optimal to anybody... well, except for the health insurance companies, who can determine at the last minute that there's something about you that makes you ineligable for their services.
__________________
Ledgem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-11, 23:02   Link #217
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
Interesting take by a rare SANE US columnist; David Brooks

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/op....html?emc=eta1

I am in ideological agreement with public plan or something close to it, the stickler is the deficit. Obama as much as i like him used iffy math as reported by the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009091004411
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-12, 01:58   Link #218
ZephyrLeanne
On a sabbatical
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
Age: 33
I still think the best way out is government administered healthcare schemes. Britain and Singapore, France and Germany have done well with it. Let the private sector do the niche jobs like VIP treatment and Plastic surgery.
__________________
ZephyrLeanne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-12, 13:09   Link #219
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Interesting take by a rare SANE US columnist; David Brooks

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/op....html?emc=eta1

I am in ideological agreement with public plan or something close to it, the stickler is the deficit. Obama as much as i like him used iffy math as reported by the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009091004411
Brooks is just about the only one left out of the "intellectual conservative wing" who still writes (perhaps George Will and a couple of others) and he's pretty much broken with the Neocons/GOP -- very publicly during the 2008 election campaign.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-09-12, 23:10   Link #220
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
1. H-B1/Green Card are not illegal
2. they pay taxes like everyone else

Answer: YES
this just in

looks like some reps want to make changes...


Rep. joe the heckler and Dean Heller of Nevada proposed an amendment that would require validation of citizenship. It was voted down in the House W&M Committee.

Last edited by mg1942; 2009-09-12 at 23:22.
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
health, healthcare

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.