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Old 2009-06-15, 14:30   Link #101
Vexx
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Originally Posted by technomo12 View Post
hmmm such deep discussion.

anyway is it really true that the number of single men and single female are increasing dramatically???
If you're asking whether fewer people are getting *married*, then the next question is are you asking about the entire world or just a specific country?

Fewer people are getting *married* in post-industrialized countries... but that doesn't mean they're unattached to someone.
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Old 2009-06-15, 15:43   Link #102
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
1. Was there any particular anime that you stopped watching or didn't like because you found it to be sexist?
No. Unless you see Harem and over Ecchiness as sexism.
I stay away from Harem in general, since the dullness of the female cast is always stunning XD
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
2. Do you think there is a difference between anime and western animation in terms of sexism? Do you think that what is portrayed in anime to be a product of the differences in what is perceived as sexist? etc.
Hmm no. The damsel in distress is and was everywhere. The rescue the princess theme is all over of myths and folklore.
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Yeah, both shounen/shoujo and all other types of manga are open for discussion, it'll be interesting to see the differences in terms of demographics as well.

I guess it would also be interesting to discuss whether the differences in culture is to blame, or whether that is just another misconception. In my case I will be able to contribute little on this matter since I know very little about the Japanese culture to start off with, but for any of those that do, your input is appreciated.
Well, I gotta say even so I have nothing against the traditional role model (Housewife + working Husband), when both are fine with it - I do get fed up with it sometimes, when female character (specially in shonen and action orientated series) are shown kicking the ass of the main character about, but never do anything but faint when it gets serious.
But that's not only the case in anime. It's also in western films. Like when the hero needs to learn how to fight to fulfill his destiny and is tutored by his love interest who is a total kick ass. And then she gets abducted like a helpless kitty in the second part of the movie, needing to be saved XD

Also shoujo isn't free of sexism. I don't read / watch that much, so my impression might not be that representative, but those series are full of stereotypes, that are just as bad as the helpless heroine. Like total douchebags who do nothing but ridicul the other or the super cute girl who falls on the spot for someone she doesn't even know (again that can even be found in Disney movies XD).

But I also agree that it's hard to write a story without any sexism at all. I wouldn't say I'm free of it, since I hate whimsical characters and like the strong ones, so I can relate to how hard it is to not let your view get into the way of the story telling. Specially when the female isn't a skilled fighter.

I guess an example where I didn't mind the damsel distress in anime would be 'Samurai Champloo'. I mean, come on, how often did Fuu got captured / sold? XD But you can't blame neither the writer or the character, since it's pulled of in a nice way, and she isn't a samurai. She also never gives up, no matter how hopeless her situation seems. Also the women there are portrayed very positive, since the series is loosely based on the edo era ..... even when they get sold by their husbands :P.

And like already mentioned ... 'Naruto' is a rather negative example. Female character rarely get in the lime light or get a good fight scene. Even Tsunade who's supposed to be one of the most friggin' strongest Kunoichi in the ninja world, is downplayed a lot when it comes to fighting. It's a bit like the girls are just there to fill in the quota.

But I gotta say, it's not as bad as my long rant may make it sound. Yeah lines like "Women are helpless they need to be protected!" or "The only happiness for a woman lies in marriage" are a tad extreme, but shows who have them aren't very intelligent to begin with or don't play them straight, e.g. I heard the second phrase often in romatic comedies ;D

On the other hand, females have some pretty good roles. Like if they have a dominant, aggresive character people love it - if a male character is portrayed weak ("SHINJI SUXXX") he gets beaten to no end in fandom.
So while I say that anime is somewhat sexist, both towards man and woman, there are also positive examples or you can't blame the writers too much for the roles (mostly).

I also think this issue will become less and less in the coming decades. Sexism will never fully vanish, since eyecandy always sells (both titties and muscle men), but the roles of men and women will hopefully be so good balanced that neither feminist or maninist have a lot to bicker about. Hopefully that is.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:28   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg
I think you guys are misunderstanding, or at least overloading the term sexism. If it's a part of life, then it does not deserve the usually negative connotation that the term sexism brings to mind.
As Mushi points out, there are two slightly different definitions for "sexism" - they're both in play because stereotyping often leads to negative connotations. Like the "discrimination" itself, the term encompasses more than the negative aspects, but for historical reasons those are the aspects that are generally associated with with the term. As for whether the less negative examples of sexism fit in this thread, I think that they should for a couple of reasons: the first is that stereotyping leads very readily to the negative gender roles, the second being that the operative question is whether the sexism is offensive - and that's a very subjective matter.

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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg
In the end, I do not consider this whole idea of girls dressing sexy to be a sexist issue, since there is no discrimination involved in it - i.e. those girls are not treated unfairly
This is a good example of how subjective the matter can be. A show like Queen's Blade doesn't really treat girls unfairly from the guys per se, but it's also easy to see why some women might find it extremely degrading and offensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Himura
Anyway, I started wondering if it counted as being sexist to do that sort of thing. For instance, if I have female characters who suffer more, is it because I feel like their suffering is in some way more tragic? Or because I somewhere subscribe to the idea that women are more likely to internalize while men are more likely to lash out, i.e. that a male character in the same situation would just become a really angry person, where a female character might be more filled with doubt/introspective (I generally prefer my characters to be introspective, so)?
I don't know if you need to be so self-concious about this whole thing. It's only really a problem if it gets to the point where female characters are relegated to such subservient roles or if they mostly exist to provide problems for the male characters to solve. Other than that, as long as the female characters you write about are characters in their own rights, with consistent characterization and motivation, and more than just a collection of quirks and archetypes, any incidental sexism (which doesn't necessarily exist from your description) is easy to ignore/forgive. A goodly amount of introspection goes a long way to fleshing out even the weakest characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Himura
In the above case, I found that, to some extent too, I was having female characters go through more so that they could come out stronger. But is it still falling into some sort of sexism/stereotyping, then?
Keep in mind that weak female characters don't necessarily equate to sexism. It's really more a question of how they are treated in the context of the story. Weak characters are only really stereotypical (in the sense of gender role) if their weaknesses are promoted or advocated or shown as endearing on the basis of their gender. Going from weakness to strength is obviously none of that.

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Originally Posted by zebra
But I gotta say, it's not as bad as my long rant may make it sound. Yeah lines like "Women are helpless they need to be protected!" or "The only happiness for a woman lies in marriage" are a tad extreme, but shows who have them aren't very intelligent to begin with or don't play them straight, e.g. I heard the second phrase often in romatic comedies ;D
It can be a lot more subtle than that. One common example in comedies is a girl acting like a traditional wife waiting for her husband to come home: she would kneel at the doorway and ask "Would you like supper or a bath first?" as the male character comes in. In Japan, it's mostly a cliche played for laughs, but there is a certain element of it coming off as idealized behavior. For a Western viewer, it can be awfully sexist as a consequence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Himura
I may just have to pull out that sadly unwatched first DVD of The Twelve Kingdoms I've had lying around forever... though I wonder if the novels tell the story better, I sort of felt like they did with Crest of the Stars.
Apart from a few details the Twelve Kingdoms DVDs are quite similar to the first couple of novels, and I hear that they are pretty close throughout the rest of the anime. I still think that it's a very worthwhile watch even if you've read the novels because the voice-acting, audio and animation go a long way to making the experience feel quite different.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:41   Link #104
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It can be a lot more subtle than that. One common example in comedies is a girl acting like a traditional wife waiting for her husband to come home: she would kneel at the doorway and ask "Would you like supper or a bath first?" as the male character comes in. In Japan, it's mostly a cliche played for laughs, but there is a certain element of it coming off as idealized behavior. For a Western viewer, it can be awfully sexist as a consequence.
When its played for laughs (e.g. a sarcastic tsundere) it can be quite funny (as well as alarming to the male character). When its played straight (say, like something you might see in Ai Yori Aoshi) - it *can* be quite appalling unless the character has an iron strength to her (imo, AYA only gets away with it because functionally its a fantasy even by Japan standards).
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Old 2009-06-15, 17:39   Link #105
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there are some animes/games that are quite the opposite where men are the weak ones and all the girls are stupidly OP than the men.

but like the 2nd poster said, those who take it serious need to grow up, its anime
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Old 2009-06-15, 18:04   Link #106
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It can be a lot more subtle than that. One common example in comedies is a girl acting like a traditional wife waiting for her husband to come home: she would kneel at the doorway and ask "Would you like supper or a bath first?" as the male character comes in.
LOL. That's never really stood out to me before, but when I read that it triggered a faint feeling that I'd seen it recently and then I remembered... Koyoi, jr. high girl in Hatsukoi Limited.

Spoiler for Koyoi:

But, as I said before, I'm one who likes to indulge in such guilty pleasures and couldn't care less how sexist it is.
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Old 2009-06-16, 18:03   Link #107
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I'm not defending it, but how is queen's blade sexist? Just wondering
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Old 2009-06-26, 11:07   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
But, as I said before, I'm one who likes to indulge in such guilty pleasures and couldn't care less how sexist it is.
In a way, Hatsukoi Limited is quite a bit less sexist than it could have been. One big reason is that, even though it does portray its female characters doing stereotypical things, this kind of behavior isn't really idealized. In fact, most of the girls behaving like that are portrayed as jerks to some degree. Moreover, I don't think that there's anything really wrong about enjoying a scene even if it is sexist to some degree - the real question is how offensive it is rather than whether it's sexist or not. And since the level of offensiveness is largely subjective, that becomes a matter of personal taste.

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Originally Posted by animeboy12 View Post
I'm not defending it, but how is queen's blade sexist? Just wondering
Queen's Blade is sexist because it draws its entertainment value from the ogling of women's bodies. If you prefer, you can think of it as being sexist in the same way that women mud-wrestling can be considered sexist.
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Old 2009-06-29, 15:55   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
That's the thing though...I think the sexism against men is much more prevalent and should be discussed. I don't think that we live in a male-dominated society is a good excuse. In fact, I'm not sure we live in a male-dominated society anymore. Most Western countries (Europe and the US in particular) are heavily geared towards women - women rights, women power, support for women, etc.

To get back on topic, I can relate much more easily to male characters, since I am a guy, so I find it very offensive to see male characters treated so badly.

Am I the only one who feels this way? Do you guys relate more to female characters, or do you just not care about the characters at all?
Am I the only one in California that doesn't feel this way? California is the misogynist hub of the western world, home of misogynist music bands, and California is where the modern misogynist movement got started. Feminists do not exist in California, at least not among those under 35 years old. I'm probably the only feminist in the whole state that watches anime.

I like female characters better. One of the reasons I watch anime is that the females are often dominant towards the males, which is non-existent in live action media.

Quote:
To get back on topic, I can relate much more easily to male characters, since I am a guy, so I find it very offensive to see male characters treated so badly.
You live in California, practically all women in the state listen to misogynist hip hop bands, and fantasize about getting beaten by their husbands. You are the last person who needs to be asking for sympathy here, living in the most male chauvinistic state in the whole country.
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Old 2009-06-29, 20:17   Link #110
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Am I the only one in California that doesn't feel this way? California is the misogynist hub of the western world, home of misogynist music bands, and California is where the modern misogynist movement got started. Feminists do not exist in California, at least not among those under 35 years old. I'm probably the only feminist in the whole state that watches anime.
LOL...what?

Where do you get that idea? I've lived here just for 7 years, but I have no idea where this is coming from. California is not a misogynist state. In fact, it's pretty liberal. I would understand if you were talking about one of the southern states (I mean no disrespect to them) since they are more traditionalist, but California? I never got that impression.

If you are looking for real misogynist countries, try some of the middle eastern countries, where women sometimes do not have basic human rights and not in California where there are some hip hop bands who promote street culture.

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Originally Posted by Abashi View Post
I like female characters better. One of the reasons I watch anime is that the females are often dominant towards the males, which is non-existent in live action media.
If you are a girl I can understand why you would like female characters better, but at least you agree with me that in anime female characters are pretty dominant most of the time.

By the way, this is true about live action here as well. There are countless commercials nowadays that present men as doofuses who can't even finish a job right and their wives have to take care of everything. I can even find you a link if you want. There are plenty of popular sit-coms that do the same thing (Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, etc.) Tell me one live action show that treats men better than women.

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Originally Posted by Abashi View Post
You live in California, practically all women in the state listen to misogynist hip hop bands, and fantasize about getting beaten by their husbands. You are the last person who needs to be asking for sympathy here, living in the most male chauvinistic state in the whole country.
Honestly, I have no idea where this is coming from. Maybe you are in a bad company with people who behave in such a way, but I'm positive none of the women here I know fantasize about getting beaten up. If hip hop bands are the best evidence you have for male chauvinism here, then you fall awfully short.
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Old 2009-06-30, 00:34   Link #111
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liBERAL CALIFORNIA MYSOGYNIST?!
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Old 2009-06-30, 00:49   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
When its played for laughs (e.g. a sarcastic tsundere) it can be quite funny (as well as alarming to the male character). When its played straight (say, like something you might see in Ai Yori Aoshi) - it *can* be quite appalling unless the character has an iron strength to her (imo, AYA only gets away with it because functionally its a fantasy even by Japan standards).
Well, on his end, Kaoru did have some major Woobie points, and we don't see him as a MCP.
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Old 2009-07-02, 16:11   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post

If you are a girl I can understand why you would like female characters better, but at least you agree with me that in anime female characters are pretty dominant most of the time.

By the way, this is true about live action here as well. There are countless commercials nowadays that present men as doofuses who can't even finish a job right and their wives have to take care of everything. I can even find you a link if you want. There are plenty of popular sit-coms that do the same thing (Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, etc.) Tell me one live action show that treats men better than women.
How do you define 'better treatment'? Most entertainment in the Western world has males as the main characters, plus a mostly male cast, with one or two females who may or may not serve as eye candy. Usually, they fill out the role of the male protagonist's love interest (do the Bechdel test: try to find a movie that has two or more named females, talking to each other about something other than a man - MANY movies don't pass this, since female roles traditionally revolve around men rather than having independent goals. Of course, there is no shortage of male movie characters who pass).

Anyhoo, if the protagonist of a story is a tough guy, the female lead will probably end up being rescued by him in some fashion. If he's smart, he impresses the girl and saves the day. If he's a comedian, the wife will put up with his funny antics and help set up punchlines. As it is, nowadays a lot of comedy revolves around people doing dumb stuff. See Married with Children, Family Guy, or The Simpsons. Peggy, Lois or Marge are meant to compliment the real star, not to steal their spotlight.

As for advertising, men are only portrayed as helpless when companies are trying to sell something to women. When a product is geared towards men, you are more likely to see women as sex objects there to stimulate mens' desires rather than doing things like thinking or acting independently (think certain deodorant commercials).
Advertising pretty much sucks universally, though.
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Old 2009-08-29, 11:21   Link #114
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Women in Anime

What do you think of the female roles in anime?

Discuss both the over sexualised images of the female within anime, and whether or not this affects the roles they play.

Do female get a better deal than that of other western cartoon and films?
Is the female empowered because shes sexualised?
Does anime tend to put females into more action type roles than that before seen to a western audience?


I'd normally give my own opinion in the opening post, but i am much more interested in what you people think. Please there are no right or wrong answers and an opinion can never be bullshit.
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Old 2009-08-29, 22:32   Link #115
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I chuckle at this question because it really depends on the genre, but generally in shows that target young females in western tend portray hyper sexualized, unnatural, unhealthy figures for the young, couple examples winx club, bratz, w/e barbie show, some horse riding show. Any way even when you look at Disney brand movies these same qualities are emphasized and for some reason it seems that western stigma states that females should move on from cartoons and animated features after 12 and catch Gossip girl, or the new 91210, which are even more sexualizations of women, and over exaggerated features that supposedly encompass the standard of beauty in western society.

I will say that in anime since their are so many genres females play different roles, and do use more than just their sexuality.
Spoiler for genshiken spoilersish, but an example of how anime differs then the west use of sex appeal:
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Old 2009-08-29, 22:50   Link #116
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This is how it goes down, for any media, be it animation, live-action, electronic games, graphic novels... anything at all.

The networks believe that (Most Writers Are Male + Viewers Are Morons) x Fanservice = PROFIT.

/thread
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Old 2009-08-30, 00:40   Link #117
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Originally Posted by space cowboy View Post
What do you think of the female roles in anime?

Discuss both the over sexualised images of the female within anime, and whether or not this affects the roles they play.
Are we writing a paper for your Women's Studies class or something?

Quote:
Do female get a better deal than that of other western cartoon and films?
Hell no. Most anime that ends up on the Internet through fansubs is the sort that is not directed toward the mainstream, whereas if it ends up on TV in the West (United States), it more or less has to be appealing to as many people as possible so the studio can make its production costs back.
Quote:
Is the female empowered because she's sexualised?
Not intrinsically, same with men.
Quote:
Does anime tend to put females into more action type roles than that before seen to a western audience?
Probably, given the number of action anime being higher than the number of shows on television. The ratios are probably about the same, though.

I'd normally give my own opinion in the opening post, but i am much more interested in what you people think. Please there are no right or wrong answers and an opinion can never be bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Don't say that. Give your opinions, too.
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Old 2009-08-30, 01:28   Link #118
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If you think women in anime are over-sexualised, men in shoujo/josei/yaoi shows are no better either.
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Old 2009-08-30, 04:43   Link #119
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Interesting stuff so far, and nope this isnt for a paper or anything i'm just curious, i posted the same topic on another forum and got a very one sided response.

Heres what i think.

On the whole Anime's portrayal of women is something with cases for both the worst and best roles in which they play.

For instance, i believe theres more main character roles, or protagonist roles for women in anime as aposed to western cartoons. Sure theres quite a few Disney films but thats where it practically stops. Where as anime for starters both meets and over takes in numbers the films than Disney with Studio Ghibli's obsession with having the female as the main leading role. Beyond Ghibli we have hundreds of anime with a female as the main character for instance the entire genre called Shojo. My first point here is one of power through being the main driving force within the film. To be the protagonist means that you drive and propell the narrative forwards, with the choices that character makes. As an audience we are subjected to the actions that character chooses and by doing so has the attention of our active gaze. This i find is more common for women in anime than it is in western animation and i believe by giving the female the lead role in this way empowers them more often, than that in western animation.

Secondly, i believe the image of the female in japanese animation can be both sexist but on the other hand some what empowering. The image of the female more often than not in Anime has a hold over the other male characters and weakens them to some extent. This strength is not something the female character strives to achieve but rather normally something she already has. For instance most of the Hina Girls in love hina can pretty much make kintaro do whatever they want.

Thirdly, the action type role is cast more to women than that of western animation. Examples of course are appleseed, Ghost in the shell, Gunsmith Cats ect ect. Casting women in action roles is something rarely done in western live action let alone animation. However even for things like Tarantino's Kill Bill most of the strong female characters are based from Tarantino's love for all things Japanese, taking direct influences from Lady snowblood and anime.

Erm not sure what else to say other than round this up for now. So on the whole i think women get a better role in anime than that in animation mainly due to the roles that are put into. Now of course there are very extreme opposites to this, such as hentai and rape ero games ect but this can be kindaaaa (pushing it here) counter argued with the demasulinised or rather feminised images of the male in yaoi and most other anime with Bishies.

Sorry if my grammar is off, its really early in the morning and im feeling a little odd >.<
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Old 2009-08-30, 04:47   Link #120
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If you think women in anime are over-sexualised, men in shoujo/josei/yaoi shows are no better either.
I agree it is the same...to a degree.
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