AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-03, 17:10   Link #121
CaramelDragon08
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Hmm...

I haven't taken the time to read this entire board yet so I won't go into detail on my theories without seeing whether or not someone has brought up something similar and it's been discussed thoroughly. But, I did skim through it enough to see that nothing like this had been suggested so I'll propose it simply because of that. This isn't my favorite theory (in the sense of probable correctness), but simply one that's interesting.

Taking Kinzo's love for magic into account, it could be possible that "the key" refers to "The Key of Soloman" a well known grimoire (Actually the only one I had ever even remembered) that is often called simply "The Key" by those who know it. Simply because I don't believe in this theory that much I haven't dove into it, but certain things do make sense. It takes it's look at things by different angels controlling different times between the midnights and the sun-down's... without getting too technical, it could give a reason for the timing of each murder if someone were to look into it. Not to mention it contains some (I believe all but didn't look thoroughly like I said) of the magic circles used thus far. Plus if you look at the sequence of thing in the epitaph it certainly looks as if it could be a ritual carried out by one person in the most blatant sense.

I find it interesting to think that there is both a witch and human answer to this epitaph so both sides could be satisfied. One answer being the gold that the humans want, and the other leading to whatever magical power it was that Eva-Beatrice wanted badly enough to complete the ceremony.

Another problem with this theory is that even if it were possible it would be very difficult to prove as the vast majority of grimoire translators removed parts that they believed dealt with evil magic.

Additionally, I hate thinking it's going to be a word puzzle. I'm not really all that good with kanji so by trying to keep it solvable in my mind I ignore that. Plus, while some of what the characters talk about in the story may have relevance to unlocking the answer, I doubt something covering that large of a portion would just be given away. Then again hiding parts of the answer in plain view would also make you /facepalm when you did finally get the answer if you had ignored it.

Anyways~ I'll probably come back this weekend to contribute after I have time to properly read over the forum. More than anything I just wanted to maybe give you another way to look at things with this post

Last edited by CaramelDragon08; 2009-11-03 at 17:32. Reason: Spelling failure
CaramelDragon08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-03, 22:29   Link #122
Christen
Endless Nine
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 29
Ryukishi said himself that it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese.
__________________

Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.
Christen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-03, 23:33   Link #123
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Which suggests that it is either word play that doesn't work in say English, or it is a cultural reference that while easy to spot (if one thinks in a childish way) in Japan, might go right over everyone else's heads.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 06:03   Link #124
Skullchukka
Letter from lost days ~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Netherlands / Turkey
Age: 26
I'm still counting on the "If the Epitaph is a wordplay in Kanji/Hiragana whatever, It's almost useless and pointless for the non-Japanese speaking world." idea. I liked it... Maybe Ryuk said `it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese. ` just to mess with our heads and take us far away from the truth.

Of course, he may have never guessed the game would be translated into English, so It's not practical in that situation to think about the english speaking readers... So the `epitaph is actually a wordplay` theory is very possible now...

Well, I at least hope it can be translated somewhat a little to English when it is revealed. I fear that, if it is actually a wordplay, it would need endless explanations such as (this kanji is read like this, but combined with this, it is actually this, which is also the first sylable of this, so this), which certinly would not give us the shivers as a Japanese speaking person would get by 'solving' the epitaph.

----------------------------

Pure speculation time. I have broken the Epitaph down to 22 lines.
  1. My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.
  2. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.
  3. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.
  4. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.
  5. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.
  6. He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.
  7. At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
  8. At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
  9. At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high.
  10. At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
  11. At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
  12. At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill.
  13. At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
  14. At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.
  15. At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
  16. At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold.
  17. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
  18. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
  19. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
  20. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
  21. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time.
  22. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.
Now, the utterly, probably silliest speculation begins. I have absolutely no kanji knowlege, so I'll be using the English translation.

  • Hometown is the Epitaph itself.
    The sweetfish running through are actually lines. Since we are running through, it should be logically 'down from the lines to bottom.'
  • "You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.", means that If you are searching for "Golden Land" [Which is stated at line 5&18 / and 16], you will follow the path [lines] and search for 'key'. The key might be 'key' in line 6.
    Line 16 says "land of gold", while line 18 says "Golden Land"
    Lets speculate that the key is line 6. We continue reading from line 3.
  • "If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. " If we think lines after 6 would be the river downstream, the first village we see is the one at Line 16.
    If we take the lines after this actual line [If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.], the first village we see is line 4.
  • "In the village" in line 4 may refer to; line 4 completely, line 16 completely, or all the lines between 4 and 16, since villages are a foundations that have boundaries between other villages.
    Lets speculate "village" are the lines between 4 and 16.
    The "shore" that "two people" would tell, could refer to second twilight. Because a) It is the 2nd twilight, and b) It is telling us to tear apart 2 who are close.
  • 2 that are close should be torn by us. But not only "two that are close", It is said "those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close". Now we haven't done anything to "leave others alone" so they could be torn. So we need to do something, let's try Twilight 1.
  • "You shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key."
    We speculated that key was line 6. And that line says "Lift up as sacrifice the six, chosen by key." Could this be line 6 itself, rather than 6 seperate lines, or words?
  • Line 6 is "There sleeps the key to the Golden Land." Edit>Sorry that is actually line 5. -_-
    My theory was based on it, however, maybe you can inspire a thought from my reasoning, so Ill just leave it here. For example the `new first two lines` actually could make some sense.
    If you can find a way to make Line 5 "the six chosen by the key", I guess this still would work.
Spoiler for old bugged reasoning:

I'm at university right now, couldn't think of an alternate way. But I found this as some interesting fact *hopes it is correct*
Not really a Japanese expert, but I also figured out 陸 is a way to write both shore and six. (?)
__________________

Last edited by Skullchukka; 2009-11-04 at 07:14.
Skullchukka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 08:45   Link #125
Christen
Endless Nine
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 29
The number 6 is amazingly all over the place. I've also been thinking that it might have a significance somewhere

- Rokkenjima means Six Houses Island. If you want to push it, Rokken is 6 characters.
- 六軒島 can be written as ろっけんじま or ロッケンジマ which consist of 6 characters as well.
- 右代宮 's 右 is commonly read as みぎ. This makes 右代宮 convertible to 6 characters.
- Kuwadorian is also 6 characters.
__________________

Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.
Christen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 08:50   Link #126
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I think "nine" is equally predominant in Umineko 'though.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-04, 09:18   Link #127
Christen
Endless Nine
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 29
Incidentally, 6 and 9 are just upside down forms of each other.
__________________

Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.
Christen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 21:24   Link #128
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Does anyone have a screen shot of the epitaph as it was originally? I can't remember if there was ever a background of it in the visual novel. I was wondering about this because I thought sweet fish river would mean a clear river and since it went through the hometown then you could draw a line down to go to the next hint, but that is just a wild guess.
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 23:03   Link #129
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullchukka View Post
Of course, he may have never guessed the game would be translated into English, so It's not practical in that situation to think about the english speaking readers... So the `epitaph is actually a wordplay` theory is very possible now...
It depends when he made the statement, but he was obviously aware of our existence sometime before EP4.
k//eternal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-05, 23:09   Link #130
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Does anyone have a screen shot of the epitaph as it was originally? I can't remember if there was ever a background of it in the visual novel. I was wondering about this because I thought sweet fish river would mean a clear river and since it went through the hometown then you could draw a line down to go to the next hint, but that is just a wild guess.
The original is just a plain text. I don't think there was a picture of it in Episode1. However there is one in Episode3, but as I said it's just text and it isn't really different from the one you can see in the anime.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-10, 15:31   Link #131
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Well, im not too good at stuff like this, but going to post my thinking anyhow.

Ok, the epitaph is divided into three parts:

Spoiler for epitaph:


I did some epitaph thinking at school today and I believe that this part:

Spoiler:


is telling us the location of the key to the golden land. If we think of the gold and the Golden Land as the same thing, the key to the gold would be the epitaph... and in that case the hometown would be Rokkenjima, the river could be the path to the house and the house itself could be the village. The key would be the epitaph and when you finally stand there, you can start the riddle. Now the tools to get to the golden land is this passage:
Spoiler:


I believe we are supposed to do with the epitaph as the twilights suggest. First, lets find the six chosen by the key... if the key is the epitaph, then there has to be something there is six of...

How about the last part of the epitaph?

It got six lines and now we are supposed to lift them up. I take that to mean lift them above the twilights part. In that case, the epitaph looks like this:

Spoiler for new epitaph:


Now we got two parts, the "riddle" and the "rules". For the second twilight, we are supposed to tear apart the two who are close from those who remain, that would be the two not among the rules as they are not part of the riddle anymore. There are two lines by themselves at the top, I think we are supposed to split them, however I am not sure by how much. I'm trying to tear them apart as much as possible.
Spoiler:

like this... and then we are supposed to praise the witch's name on high? That might mean moving the line about the witch's name to the top.
Spoiler:

Now, we got 2 parts with 5 lines each and one extra line at the bottom. That makes three parts. Now for the strange parts... how to gouge and kill? I interpret it like "gouging" them in between each other. Notice how the gougings tell you to gouge 5 bodyparts, first head, then chest, then stomach, then knee and last leg. From top to bottom! and to gouge that you need 5 stakes. I try "gouging" the 5 lines of the top part with the 5 lines of the bottom part:
Spoiler:


This is one way to do it. The gougings can however be done in lots of ways and even though this doesn't make much sense there might be something to get from reading it. It looks abit like if you look at the first part, that the hometown and Golden Land is referring to the same thing... and in the second part it talks about a village of the dead? In the village, there is a "shore" where the two of lost love would be and finally, the last part talks about the sleeping key to the golden land and how the witch will sleep for all time.

Don't understand much about what this would mean though...
Maybe it makes more sense for people who can read japanese?

Spoiler for new riddle in japanese:


Finally to wrap it up... I suck at this stuff, but I did what I thought the epitaph was telling me to do and it sort of looked like it could make some sort of sense in the end... if someone can read japanese, look it over and see if you can spot any new meanings or anything, will ya? xD
Geekodot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-10, 16:01   Link #132
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
You completely ignored the hints revealed in Episode3, is it because you think they aren't true?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-10, 17:13   Link #133
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You completely ignored the hints revealed in Episode3, is it because you think they aren't true?
Hey I was at school, which means I couldn't really replay ep 3 at the time xD First time I actually tried thinking about the epitaph, because I can't read japanese.

But well, might actually go read it again and try to think about it again.
Geekodot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 10:46   Link #134
Tabura
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: world...for now
This is one of my reject theories but it might just help someone solve it anyway... It's about the key part of the epitaph... I thought it might be possible that "my beloved homeland" means kuwadorian or atleast Rokkenjima since he did spend all the time he had with Beatrice here... By that theory the sweetfish river might be his family since when Eva sovled it it was mentioned that it's something like the family tree and it also satisfies the "sweetfish" part since as Hideyoshi said they go live out in the sea and then come back to the river they were born in. I think everything up to this point might just be true but this is where the "rejected" part begins: follow it's path downstream obviously means his offspring and there you find a village namely Maria pointing out which part of the family to look at. "the two will tell you off" probably refers to Rosa since "the shore" might just be the shore Beatrice died on when Rosa helped her escape. A good hint to this is also the fact that Rosa first tells this story in EP3 where Eva solves the riddle. Obviously Beatrice is "sleeping" there so she might be the key... In some way or another... That also explains why Eva needed an atlas... kinda. Post your thoughts on this but do remember this was already rejected so don't go in too deep.
Tabura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-12, 16:58   Link #135
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabura View Post
I think everything up to this point might just be true but this is where the "rejected" part begins: follow it's path downstream obviously means his offspring and there you find a village namely Maria pointing out which part of the family to look at.
They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.
Arbane the Terrible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 09:25   Link #136
Tabura
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: world...for now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible View Post
They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.
Well yeah that's what the "rejected" part is about... just wanted to point it out. But you never know maybe he wanted to give her a name with "village" in it anyway...
Tabura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 20:20   Link #137
Workworkwork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible View Post
They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.
There's always the possibility that... yknow, he knew it was a major hint and wanted her name to be something more vague?
Workworkwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-13, 20:48   Link #138
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
But she was named several years before he wrote the epitaph.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-14, 01:49   Link #139
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Doesn't mean he didn't have it in mind already.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-14, 03:26   Link #140
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
But she was named several years before he wrote the epitaph.
Don't forget Eva the Younger telling it to her older self, several decades before Kinzo wrote it down...
Arbane the Terrible is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.