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Old 2009-07-16, 08:16   Link #261
Klashikari
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This is correct. Maria quote these following 4 angels and 4 kings;
Chasan, Arel, Phorlakh, and Taliahad.
then, Ariel., Seraph, Tharshis, and Cherub.`

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-07-16 at 14:48.
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:27   Link #262
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I'm pretty sure the angels weren't names, but rather a list of the angelic hierarchy. Seraph should be the top of the 4, Cherub I think is next but don't quote me on that. The next IIRC are the kings post-Solomon kings in the Book of Kings.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:00   Link #263
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There are many different angel hierarchies . I wouldn't be surprised if the Seraphs and Cherubs ranks of christian belief are actually angel names in some other context
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:30   Link #264
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The Seventh and last Pentacle of the Sun.--If any be by chance imprisoned or detained in fetters of iron, at the presence of this Pentacle, which should be engraved in Gold on the day and hour of the Sun, he will be immediately delivered and set at liberty.

Note.--On the Arms of the Cross are written the Names of Chasan, Angel of Air; Arel, Angel of Fire; Phorlakh, Angel of Earth; and Taliahad, Angel of Water. Between the four Arms of the Cross are written the names of the four Rulers of the Elements: Ariel, Seraph, Tharshis, and Cherub. The versicle is from Psalm cxvi. 16, 17:--'Thou hast broken my bonds in sunder. I will offer unto thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the Name of IHVH.'
What's on the shed (Episode I)

Quote:

The Fifth Pentacle of Mars.--Write thou this Pentacle upon virgin parchment or paper, because it is terrible unto the Demons, and at its sight and aspect they will obey thee, for they cannot resist its presence.

Note.--Around the figure of the Scorpion is the word HVL. The versicle is from Psalm xci. 13:--'Thou shalt go upon the lion and adder, the young lion and the dragon shalt thou tread under thy feet.'
What's most likely on the charm Maria gives Battler and Jessica (Episode I)


Edit
This info is not in the game, but based on research I've done, so it may or may not be worthwhile to consider.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:31   Link #265
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ok guys this is how the first twilight happened, so stop fighting.

Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie and rosa were having the inheritance discussion in the mansion,when they decided to ask gohda for some team, since gohda was really busy solving a crucigram he told shannon to make and serve it. Shanon was completely out of it because of george's proporsal, so she used absynthe instead of water to make the tea; After drinking the tea Eva started getting very amicable to shanon and said that she would be really happy if she would become part of her family, then she said she was getting a bit BLEEP and that she and hideyoshi would have to leave so they could BLEEP in their room. But then she broke in tears and said that she felt bad for natsuhi and that she wanted to apologyze for calling her a BLEEP.So, eva and hideyoshi when to natsuhi's room, eva started banging on natsuhi's door but she was deep asleep, then eva got a bit angry and decided to pull a joke on natsuhi, got a bucket of paint and then hand painted on natsuhi's door. After that she left for her room.
Back to the rest of the adults, They kept on drinking absynthea while discussing about the inheritance, then Krauss suddenly stands up and declares that he is going to find the gold and split it evenly amongst all the siblings; after that he tells call gohda so he helps them then the group (Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda and Shannon) goes to natsuhi's room so she can help them, but she did not answer them, Rosa gabs the bukcet of paint just in case it becomes useful.
Once they got out of the mansion Krauss says that they should better go to the shed to grab some tools, so they can dig the gold, Kyrie points out that they don't even know where the gold is but Krauss disregards her opinion because she is a woman.
Once they get to the shed they notice it's closed and they don't have the keys, Rosa says that she will paint a magic circle to open the door while gohda searches for the shed's key; one hour later Rosa is done with the circle, but much to her surprise she did not paint the "open doors" circle because she was pretty wasted; 30 minutes later gohda arrives with the key to the shed; after 17 tries gohda is finally able to unlock the door to the shed, then he drops the keys while missing his pocket. After that the group getsinside to search for some tools,gohda closes the door a bit so the rain does not get inside, Rudolf says that the tea was really good and gohda says that it is his specialty, Shanon then gets angry at gohda because she is the one who made he tea and starts a fight using the tools, which ends up killing everyone.
At around that time Kanon was having a small walk while wearing a dress and a blonce wig, then she notices something weird in the shed, the door is not closed properly! so she picks up the key gohda dropped, locks the door, and put the key bck in the servant's room, when she is getting back to the guest house she notices kinzo is also taking a walk under the rain so she walks to him and gives him an umbrella; kinzo thanks her and asks her to take him to a warm room, so Kanon takes kinzo to the warmest room in the mansion, after than kanon is tired so she goes to the bed while giving her last tought to her beautiful, big breasted, rich, lesbian grilfriend.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:36   Link #266
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.........Did you take a page out of Ryukishi's solution book maxi :|~
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:37   Link #267
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Old 2009-07-16, 10:40   Link #268
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LOL Max

Anyway I just noticed something

Quote:
The Fifth Pentacle of Mars
What part of it exactly is a pentacle?!!!!
I always said that magic doesn't make sense whatsoever
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:14   Link #269
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A pentacle can actually refer to any type of amulet or talisman/magical symbol. A pentagram refers to a five pointed star. They're just used synonymously a lot.
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:23   Link #270
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Frankly I have little doubt that this extended meaning derive from improper use of the word, since the "penta" in "pentacle" clearly originates from the greek "five". I also have no doubt that no Jew ever used such a word.

I can't help but facepalm in front of such a melting pot of different notions and misinterpretations that led to these magic circles.
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:27   Link #271
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Heehee, well, it's possible. Most things to do with magic or religion can be traced back to big messy misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

Wiki has a few possibilities for the etymology of the word:

Quote:
The Oxford English Dictionary gives the history of the word as obscure, but suggests an apparent derivation from the Greek prefix penta- (five) combined with the Latin suffix -culum (diminutive). An Italian word pentacolo appearing in 1483, is used to refer to 'any thing or table of five corners'.[15] Mixed formations like this are not uncommon in medieval Latin.

The Oxford English Dictionary also offers an alternative possible derivation from the Middle French word pentacol (1328) or pendacol (1418), a jewel or ornament worn around the neck (from pend- hang, à to, col or cou neck).[15][16] This is the derivation the Theosophical Society employ in their glossary:

...it seems most likely that it comes through Italian and French from the root pend- "to hang," and so is equivalent to a pendant or charm hung about the neck. From the fact that one form of pentacle was the pentagram or star-pentagon, the word itself has been connected with the Greek pente (five).[17]

A current draft Third Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives only the derivation penta + culum, and defines it as a pentagram, especially enclosed in a circle; a talisman inscribed with such a shape; or any similar magic symbol; pentacle and the Middle French pentacol are considered separate and unrelated words.[18]
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:17   Link #272
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- I'm still pointing the finger at George being the culprit or at least a culprit at one time. My reasoning was that the second twilight line in the epitaph would setup Eva and Hideyoshi as being killed to fulfill George's interpretation of the Text; which happened.
- The servants seemingly know a lot about Beatrice so I wouldn't be surprised if they are very in tune with these ritualistic sacrifices.
- Someone drew the symbol on the door seemingly after they were already dead inside (They didn't answer and when they broke in they were dead).

Whether or not these deaths are supernatural, one or more of the people on the island is influencing the others deaths in accordance with the epitaph. Suffice to say, it looks like Maria has a lot of knowledge in the occult and undeniably feels that Beatrice exists.

So according to reports, Beatrice exists as an entity but does not have a physical manifestation in the world... So how is SHE the one carrying out these murders? We see the golden butterflies hanging around, and in accordance with Beatrice being in the OP, I would say she definately does have some existence but merely as a Spectator currently (Probably watching the family attempting to carry out what is in the Epitaph). If any of the deaths are supernatural one of the "humans" on the island is pushing the buttons like the summoning of demons/devils or possession. Its only a guess but I would probably say that someone close to Maria as a friend to know roughly what she knows is one of the people setting up these murders; or Beatrice is using Maria as a medium of communication (doubtful); or Maria has some underlying connection with Beatrice like a magic affinity or radar? (Seems more likely)

So as a deduction for who might the killer be out of the living ones (in my opinion);

Beatrice - I believe she is an external spectator in this matter, and that she doesn't actually physically harm anyone on the island. It's said she appears as golden butterflies so why can't they be just her floating around watching everything.

Kanon - Too loyal, and takes his job very seriously. He knows a bit about the history behind Beatrice but other then that there's not enough information to suspect him.

Genji - Same as Kanon, a little more suspicious as he seems to be the one at every incidents discovery.

Kumasawa - Old lady, I don't see a motive as such and there has been little to no information about her.

Nanjo - I don't know enough about him other then that he MAY know something from spending probably the most time around Kinzo.

Maria - Very obscure little girl, it's impossible for her to physical carry out these murders. Her aura suggests that she probably would though, so assuming supernatural death and her knowledge in these pentagrams as well as her very miniscule signs or remorse, she could very well be causing them.

Kinzo - I think he views this as a game of wits more or less, I don't think he is the murderer but he did put this chain of events in motion and as such probably knows the operation of this game.

George - This guy is too suspect, over 3 episodes he is shown to be very laid back and very subtle even though he is in the centre of it all. I look forward to seeing his reaction to his parents deaths. He is shown to be a supporter to Maria in her occult beliefs and knows a fair amount of History related to the family.

Jessica - Her grievance is too reassuring to be the killer, she might know something though with giving the charm to Natsuhi (This could be a condition in which she didn't die).

Natsuhi - She is seemingly the leader and a lot of the incidents just would not make sense had she been the one behind things. Not saying she is out of the picture; just very unlikely.

Battler - He seems to be the least knowledgeable in regards to history and a firm believer that the occult is a load of rubbish. He looked very likely to be the killer on the first twilight with his performance but from now he looks genuinely focused on catching whoever it is. The whole opening title and ending theme with the chessboard comes to mind when he talks about his chessboard solution. So he definately seems centric to the story and as such he will probably last till the last few people deducing who it is until the very end.


That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:18   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Frankly I have little doubt that this extended meaning derive from improper use of the word, since the "penta" in "pentacle" clearly originates from the greek "five". I also have no doubt that no Jew ever used such a word.

I can't help but facepalm in front of such a melting pot of different notions and misinterpretations that led to these magic circles.
The magic circles are mainly copied from the Key of Solomon, a famous grimoire which allegedly was written by Solomon but more realistically dates from 14th or 15th century Europe.

And yes, at that time, pentacle was used to refer to any magical charm; the oldest magical charms did have a pentagram, but the synonym pentacle expanded in meaning. That's not uncommon with words -- "terrific" and "terrifying" were once synonyms meaning inciting terror; "terrific" has expanded in meaning while "terrifying" has remained the same.
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:52   Link #274
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In episode 3, I find the head buttler suspicious, for 1 he asked Kanon to go grab something to break the chain, well hu knows he gets in and kills Eva and her husband and runs to get Natsuhi. How does he do that? Eva and her husband was still alive at the time, Eva woke up from the noise and lets the buttler in, the buttler gets in and kills both of them, and got out of there in time. Though I don't think there's much time anyway Just a wild guess.

Quote:
That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.
Wow nice deduction =O, that really makes sense, hmm...
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Old 2009-07-16, 13:28   Link #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
In episode 3, I find the head buttler suspicious, for 1 he asked Kanon to go grab something to break the chain, well hu knows he gets in and kills Eva and her husband and runs to get Natsuhi. How does he do that? Eva and her husband was still alive at the time, Eva woke up from the noise and lets the buttler in, the buttler gets in and kills both of them, and got out of there in time. Though I don't think there's much time anyway Just a wild guess.
But remember, the chain still had to be cut by Kanon when he returned and found the seal on the door.
IF Genji entered the room, how did he set the chain back?
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Old 2009-07-16, 13:45   Link #276
nagare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goilveig View Post
The magic circles are mainly copied from the Key of Solomon, a famous grimoire which allegedly was written by Solomon but more realistically dates from 14th or 15th century Europe.
That was omitted in the anime.
Maria states the magic circle is the 7th sun seal of Solomon.

The above two are taken from the Greater Keys.
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Old 2009-07-16, 14:29   Link #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narokath View Post
- The servants seemingly know a lot about Beatrice so I wouldn't be surprised if they are very in tune with these ritualistic sacrifices.
- Someone drew the symbol on the door seemingly after they were already dead inside (They didn't answer and when they broke in they were dead).

Whether or not these deaths are supernatural, one or more of the people on the island is influencing the others deaths in accordance with the epitaph. Suffice to say, it looks like Maria has a lot of knowledge in the occult and undeniably feels that Beatrice exists.

So according to reports, Beatrice exists as an entity but does not have a physical manifestation in the world... So how is SHE the one carrying out these murders? We see the golden butterflies hanging around, and in accordance with Beatrice being in the OP, I would say she definately does have some existence but merely as a Spectator currently (Probably watching the family attempting to carry out what is in the Epitaph). If any of the deaths are supernatural one of the "humans" on the island is pushing the buttons like the summoning of demons/devils or possession. Its only a guess but I would probably say that someone close to Maria as a friend to know roughly what she knows is one of the people setting up these murders; or Beatrice is using Maria as a medium of communication (doubtful); or Maria has some underlying connection with Beatrice like a magic affinity or radar? (Seems more likely)

So as a deduction for who might the killer be out of the living ones (in my opinion);

Beatrice - I believe she is an external spectator in this matter, and that she doesn't actually physically harm anyone on the island. It's said she appears as golden butterflies so why can't they be just her floating around watching everything.

That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.
If the servants' words are taken literally, then there is no end to the possibilities. I mean she's a witch. Who could tell the limit of Beatrice's spells, or rather if anybody can stand up against it. It's a great solution to the murders tho'.

For the dead, apparently they are damaged in weird varieties. Some lost most of their faces, whereas Shanon still have at least half left.
-Is the killer just did not have time to damage all the faces for some of the victims. Does this mean that the less damage on the face, the later the time of death for that victim?
-Or is this a possibility of a double? Although the killer could've gone all the way to chop off their heads to further conceal the corpses' identities. But the thing is the killer did not bother to mutilate Eva and Hideyoshi's faces,but yet bother to remove the 6 victims'. There's gotta be explanation for that.

Regarding Shanon's tears, it might be a poison that makes someone unable to move but still conscious. Considering that she was alone patrolling, someone could've shoot her with tranquilizer, the type that just paralizes without putting someone to sleep. While being smashed on the face, she then cries over her fate. If this is correct, I feel bad for her.

As for Eva and Hideyoshi, i think the killer might have already been hiding in their room. After killing them, the killer left through the window and goes somewhere to watch the movements of the servants. When the killer see that they are heading to Eva and Hideyoshi's room, he/she then wait for them to go grab something to cut the chain. The killer then "paint" the demon symbol, which could probably be something that's already printed like a tatoo. This reminds to back in the day when there was the fake tatoo fad where you put it on just by pressing some paper to your skin. Similar trick might work in drawing that demon symbol.
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Old 2009-07-16, 14:46   Link #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Regarding Shanon's tears, it might be a poison that makes someone unable to move but still conscious. Considering that she was alone patrolling, someone could've shoot her with tranquilizer, the type that just paralizes without putting someone to sleep. While being smashed on the face, she then cries over her fate. If this is correct, I feel bad for her.
Regardless if she had the time to cry or not before getting killed (which is unlikely, since the facial damage is estimated to be done after the actual death), it doesn't explain how the tears can remain on her face for several hours.

There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.
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Old 2009-07-16, 15:11   Link #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
R
There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.
Do we KNOW it's an inconsistency?
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Old 2009-07-16, 15:16   Link #280
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well I can only say this because this discussion is going in a dangerous direction. There's no way a body dead for 6 or more hours would still have the tears it shed before dying. Water tends to evaporate you know...
I'll let you speculate if it is an inconsistency or not.
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