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Old 2009-07-16, 15:59   Link #281
Luxa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narokath View Post
That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.
Kinzo can't be used as a body there as he met Natsuhi a bit before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
-Or is this a possibility of a double? Although the killer could've gone all the way to chop off their heads to further conceal the corpses' identities. But the thing is the killer did not bother to mutilate Eva and Hideyoshi's faces,but yet bother to remove the 6 victims'. There's gotta be explanation for that.

As for Eva and Hideyoshi, i think the killer might have already been hiding in their room. After killing them, the killer left through the window and goes somewhere to watch the movements of the servants. When the killer see that they are heading to Eva and Hideyoshi's room, he/she then wait for them to go grab something to cut the chain. The killer then "paint" the demon symbol, which could probably be something that's already printed like a tatoo. This reminds to back in the day when there was the fake tatoo fad where you put it on just by pressing some paper to your skin. Similar trick might work in drawing that demon symbol.
There might be an occult explanation, otherwise I vote for hiding a cause of death. Or a face eating demon.
Also TIPS say that the windows were also locked from the inside. But I suppose that putting the doorchain back from the outside could be done, and then only a key is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Do we KNOW it's an inconsistency?
Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN. Of course, it does not mean it is an inconsistency, just really lowers the chance. (ED: Or it might be George's tears, shed recently over her ex's body. )

Also, If we follow the mundane route, Kumasawa can't be the murderer, at least not alone: she has no time to paint the symbol. Also at least one of Kumasawa and Kanon are innocent: they wouldn't have to act otherwise. (Or at least believe the other to be innocent.)

If it wouldn't be a too obvious solution I'd say that Maria is a culprit with summoned demons or somethings, but not channeling Beatrice, just being plain mad. She seems totally crazy already innocent or not...

Last edited by Luxa; 2009-07-16 at 16:01. Reason: Marked.
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Old 2009-07-16, 17:35   Link #282
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Regardless if she had the time to cry or not before getting killed (which is unlikely, since the facial damage is estimated to be done after the actual death), it doesn't explain how the tears can remain on her face for several hours.

There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.
I actually still don't get that part. Nanjo estimate the time of death based on rigor mortis (which apparently can be delayed if the corpses are stored in low temperature). But as for the facial mutilation, all he said was "it is likely that it's done after the murder" without any clear reason. I still think that it was assumption by the doctor. I mean the killer could've just tranquilized them and mutilate their faces. Someone whose faces got removed would die anyway from blood loss.

Although I just read that since the tears are not in the VN, it's probably just dramatization from the animation studio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxa View Post
There might be an occult explanation, otherwise I vote for hiding a cause of death. Or a face eating demon.
Also TIPS say that the windows were also locked from the inside. But I suppose that putting the doorchain back from the outside could be done, and then only a key is needed.


Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN. Of course, it does not mean it is an inconsistency, just really lowers the chance. (ED: Or it might be George's tears, shed recently over her ex's body. )
The problem is not just about face mutilation but about how some lost the whole face, some lost more than half, and some still retains half like Shanon. Is this on purpose or the killer just randomly mutilate their faces as he feels like it? But I doubt the latter tho' seems the whole murders are quite planned out to say the least.

Last edited by plzd0ntkeelme; 2009-07-16 at 17:49. Reason: freudian slip
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Old 2009-07-16, 17:39   Link #283
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN.
Wait I don't think it is possible to make such statement. Umineko doesn't have any "event image" like most VN, there are only backgrounds, character portraits (with different facial expression), special graphic effects, and other miscellaneus stuff.

In a few words this mean we have never seen how the murdered people appear in the VN. Sure the TIPS show a graphic representation of their wounds, but as you can see in the TIPS section made by Klash, they are only there to give you an idea of the kind of wounds and it's pretty schematic.

Everything we know mainly come from descriptions, but you certainly can't expect the novel to describe everything on every minimal detail.
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:15   Link #284
risingstar3110
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Ok, ep 3 showed us that: there are more than one culprit that caused all these events; the culprits are not only the human (the 18 people on the island) nor the supernatural beings (the witches), but also another natural (in anime standard) forces.
Spoiler for Higurashi, just to be safe for those haven't watched:

Let me explain as below:

Btw i have a weird feeling that there is a shape shifter in Umineko , seriously

Anyway back to Ep prediction......
Ep 1-3, first it's unlikely for those inside the house to enter the room, killed those two, then walk out of the door, lock and chain it, then draw those things.

It's still possible, as someone can come in(or come out if they hide inside the room) when Hideyoshi taking a bath, pull out something so shocking (from a not-yet-mentioned past event, perhaps) that Eva was stunned and then proceed to kill her right at that moment. Then he/she come in the bathroom and killed Hideyoshi. He then have three options:
- hide in the room until everyone come unlock the door, where he can choose a moment to join in as he just entered the room
- hide in the room until Genji open the door with his key, waited for both of them to leave and play a trick with the chain ( cut and temporary connect so it looks like it was not cut yet). This is less likely because he/she may encounter some1 guarding the door
- escape as soon as possible, using the mentioned chain trick, and secondary key to unlock

The part where it's not possible (the reason that a third force other than the witch and people inside the house) is suspected is because there is no criminal stupid enough to stay even for one moment to paint the door when everyone can rush in and corner him. No freaking way. Maybe Maria hide somewhere and did it since she is weird enough lately? As if she can paint that with her height.....
Unless a force can foresee the future and decide to do it because he/she knows no one coming. Beatrice? She has no reason to do that..... xD


Another two one thing that should also be noticed:
- Shannon last moment in George's mind. She looks terribly sad, as if she can foresee her or George's deaths (Was proved that it'not in the novel)
- every servants (from young to old) in the house totally believe Beatrice's existence, her butterfly and her role in the murders. They knows as much about Beatrice as the audience ourselves.... Maybe something happened in the past that proved Beatrice's obvious existece? A time loop and dejavu effects(E8 xD)? Not enough information yet....
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:18   Link #285
Klashikari
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One thing: No, Shannon was actually immensely happy, but weirdly enough in the anime, she is shown very concerned and reserved. But it is the other way around: she is really overwhelmed in joy when George gave her the ring, then couldn't stay calm due to the emotion overload and made up her excuse that she has to go to the mansion.

Manga version for reference:
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:20   Link #286
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I will cross the Shannon part then xD
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:29   Link #287
sora1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
One thing: No, Shannon was actually immensely happy, but weirdly enough in the anime, she is shown very concerned and reserved. But it is the other way around: she is really overwhelmed in joy when George gave her the ring, then couldn't stay calm due to the emotion overload and made up her excuse that she has to go to the mansion.

Manga version for reference:
Remember? She saw the golden butterfly(at least that was omitted in the VN) and was concerned from that. The anime seem to left this part out
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:32   Link #288
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No actually, Shannon noticed the butterfly as well in the VN, but only once she is doing her round in the mansion, same goes in the manga, unless you are talking of something else.
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Old 2009-07-16, 21:31   Link #289
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Now that Eva and Hideyoshi are out of the picture, I have to say that my last two possible logical suspects are Natsuhi and Kinzo himself.

I found Eva's actions in relation to the receipt and the door very odd. She claims it was just a prank, but what if she was doing that to raise suspicion towards Natsuhi... because Eva actually believed that Natushi had something to do with the murders. Eva has always given off the suspicious aura, but there might be a lot more to her than she seems, and trying to put the blame on Natsuhi may be more than just their bad relationship. Just a random thought though, but it seems possible enough.

Natsuhi has the most motivation right now, as the killer made sure to specifically target all of Kinzo's children. Now that they're gone, she's the one who's going to receive the inheritance. There's also the fact that shes the only one now who's seen the gold, thus knows for a fact that it exists. She can also easily dress up as Beatrice and trick Maria, thus helping create the illusion of Beatrice. She was shown sleeping during the first twilight, but she could either have an accomplice to create an alibi for herself, or they showed us that just to throw us off, and the markings on her door was done by herself to create an alibi. It may seem like a stretch right now, but that's the only logical theory I can come up with right now. No one else besides Kinzo and herself have any motive, and Maria is far too small of a child to carry out the first twilight on her own.

One thing that bothers me about Kinzo is that... what if Battler's theory was correct. It may seem silly at first, but why would a man like Kinzo go through the trouble of hiding under his bed and leaving without anyone seeing him. Either way, people are going to know that he went missing, so did do that because he went somewhere that he didn't want anyone else to know about. There's the possibility that he already knew about the murders, thus didn't want to get questioned by his children... but why go through all the trouble when he can intimidate or ignore them like he has for the past two episodes. Something isn't adding up with Kinzo, so I hope we find out more about that soon.

Well now that think about it, it's still possible for one of the six victims in the first twilight to be the killer, as Eva and Hideyoshi's faces weren't smashed in. Why smash the faces during the first twilight and not the second? There has to be a significance, and it could very well still be the old theory of someone who's dead not actually being dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
It's still possible, as someone can come in(or come out if they hide inside the room) when Hideyoshi taking a bath, pull out something so shocking (from a not-yet-mentioned past event, perhaps) that Eva was stunned and then proceed to kill her right at that moment. Then he/she come in the bathroom and killed Hideyoshi. He then have three options:
- hide in the room until everyone come unlock the door, where he can choose a moment to join in as he just entered the room
- hide in the room until Genji open the door with his key, waited for both of them to leave and play a trick with the chain ( cut and temporary connect so it looks like it was not cut yet). This is less likely because he/she may encounter some1 guarding the door
- escape as soon as possible, using the mentioned chain trick, and secondary key to unlock
The killer knocked, walked in, surprise attacked Eva, then took out Hideyoshi in the bathroom. Depending on the kind of lock it actually is, I don't see why the killer would had to risk getting caught by hiding in the room. That's what confuses me about the chain too, because my house door has a similar chain lock for it, can easily be disconnected from the outside... so why go through all the trouble of a chain cutter? The markings on the door is the biggest mystery, as we don't how long it took for Kanon to get the chain cutter and return. The killer was obviously watching from a distance, but why go through the trouble and risk of putting the markings on the door in the first place? It's like the killer forgot it after the murder or something.

I'm more curious about the contents of the letter.
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Old 2009-07-16, 21:34   Link #290
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But remember, the chain still had to be cut by Kanon when he returned and found the seal on the door.
IF Genji entered the room, how did he set the chain back?
I was wondering if we could lock the chain from the outside Dang, the only option is to hide inside the room and pretend to get inside when the others aren't paying attention. I also had my suspicion on Natsuhi, since they can work together to avoid suspicion.

Ahh this is a headache, lol
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Old 2009-07-16, 21:48   Link #291
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Tamad View Post
The killer knocked, walked in, surprise attacked Eva, then took out Hideyoshi in the bathroom. Depending on the kind of lock it actually is, I don't see why the killer would had to risk getting caught by hiding in the room. That's what confuses me about the chain too, because my house door has a similar chain lock for it, can easily be disconnected from the outside... so why go through all the trouble of a chain cutter? The markings on the door is the biggest mystery, as we don't how long it took for Kanon to get the chain cutter and return. The killer was obviously watching from a distance, but why go through the trouble and risk of putting the markings on the door in the first place? It's like the killer forgot it after the murder or something.

I'm more curious about the contents of the letter.
My house don't have a chain, but why your house need a chain if you can unlock it from outside? =D
The chain support to be short enough, that's unless you close the door, you can't remove or put it in (if you close the door, obviously the outsider can't remove it ). The space of the door also small enough and in such angle so that you can't see things inside, or get your hand or any common tools to unlock the chain. That's why it always have to be cut.....
Chain(without certain trick) = some1 locked the door from inside

As mentioned, unless the culprit can see the future (to watch out if any1 unexpectedly turn up), there is no way he will stay and paint the door, even if he can draw the whole things in 30 secs


"And that's when we turn the chessboard over" (sorry but it sounds too cool to not using this line xD )
Natsuhi's charm, the garden shed, Kinzo's disappearance and Eva & Hideyoshi's deaths support to give general audiences (and the servants and Maria) a feeling that the murderer is non-human, Beatrice perhaps. In the same time, based on those and the events background (isolated island and mansion) gave us skeptical audiences, the feeling that it was human with certain skills and tricks behind all these(looks at Higurashi poll and you see lots of ppl after watching 1st few eps believe ridiculous stuffs were done by human).

Therefore the secret behind those events must be done by all elements: certain culprits, not-yet known forces, the supernatural beings, and by the victims themselves
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Old 2009-07-16, 22:58   Link #292
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Well at least we know where some of the murders took place. Weapon of choice is still anyone's guess (unless I'm retarded and completely missed it) but at least we now know it can be a weapon that leaves a bloody mess.

I really like Battler's way of thinking in this episode. I wouldn't have even thought about that method of how Kinzo left his study room. Only thing is...it might point out that Kinzo is possibly still in the study, just that he's still in hiding somewhere in there, but I'm pretty sure the time Eva and Natsuhi went into that room to search for him wasn't the only time so it's doubtful. I wonder (if in fact he is gone) why he had to leave and where would he possibly go. Maybe that place that was pointed out by Maria at the beginning of the first episode?

Pretty shocking development with the servants believing in Beatrice. I had a feeling Kumasawa did but I didn't expect Kanon and Genji to believe that too. Seems like only those who believe in her can actually see her just like I expected. So we know the golden butterfly is a form that Beatrice occasionally changes to and that she doesn't have a body so to speak, but right now her true form is "no form"? It's sounding more and more like she's currently just a spirit wondering this mansion right now or at least that's what its being made out to be through my eyes. This is so god damn confusing but at least that definitely backs the notion that the person in the rose garden in the first episode truly isn't Beatrice, since she doesn't have a body so it couldn't be her going by that.

One thing is for sure...whoever this killer is apparently can draw those symbols pretty damn fast unless he/she has an accomplice that's doing it. I can't imagine finding a lock cutter and Kumasawa taking Kanon very long. And why was finding Kumasawa exactly necessary? Maybe to buy time?

And I'm curious to know what exactly was with the letter on the bottom of the door at the end there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
"And that's when we turn the chessboard over" (sorry but it sounds too cool to not using this line xD )
Natsuhi's charm, the garden shed, Kinzo's disappearance and Eva & Hideyoshi's deaths support to give general audiences (and the servants and Maria) a feeling that the murderer is non-human, Beatrice perhaps. In the same time, based on those and the events background (isolated island and mansion) gave us skeptical audiences, the feeling that it was human with certain skills and tricks behind all these(looks at Higurashi poll and you see lots of ppl after watching 1st few eps believe ridiculous stuffs were done by human).

Therefore the secret behind those events must be done by all elements: certain culprits, not-yet known forces, the supernatural beings, and by the victims themselves
And that is why this mystery is so interesting. Fantasy versus reality. These murders and the theorizing following seem to support either/both side(s) playing a role here. The real killer may very well have an accomplice in Beatrice to mislead the others into thinking how this was all carried out. The true question could very well be what parts were carried out by human hands and what parts were carried out by way of demon magic. This whole "believing in either fantasy or reality" seems to be becoming the main recurring theme of this show for me if these episodes are anything to go by.

Last edited by Karlson; 2009-07-16 at 23:27.
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Old 2009-07-16, 23:50   Link #293
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Karlson View Post
Pretty shocking development with the servants believing in Beatrice. I had a feeling Kumasawa did but I didn't expect Kanon and Genji to believe that too. Seems like only those who believe in her can actually see her just like I expected. So we know the golden butterfly is a form that Beatrice occasionally changes to and that she doesn't have a body so to speak, but right now her true form is "no form"? It's sounding more and more like she's currently just a spirit wondering this mansion right now or at least that's what its being made out to be through my eyes. This is so god damn confusing but at least that definitely backs the notion that the person in the rose garden in the first episode truly isn't Beatrice, since she doesn't have a body so it couldn't be her going by that.
You make a good point here. The fact that she said Beatrice gave her the umbrella, while still state "she is here" (invisible and without any corporeal form) means even when Maria didn't lie, someone still have some ways to give her the umbrella and make it looks like Beatrice did it. Remember Kumasawa (the old woman) mentioned that the body of Beatrice in the pictured was also a girl being possessed? How about some1 turn up with sudden great knowledge of Beatrice and completely different act that can persuade Maria that she/he is curretly possessed by Beatrice then give her the umbrella and the letter (made from the ring that he/she got it).


It's true that at first i expected the 1st letter is 100% from Beatrice because the content sound "witch-like". But such knowledge can be attained from the servants or from Kinzo (especially how much they believe in her). If the one who wrote it didn't do so, Kinzo (if by chance can see it) can recognise it's a fake right away.

But now Kinzo was missing, so whether the 1st letter is fake or not, any letter from now on can say the craziest thing possible ("I, Beatrice, has murdered Eva and Hideyoshi.... i gonna kill Batter next and adopt Maria to be my child", for e.g. ) and everyone will still believe it's from the same person that sent last time
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Old 2009-07-17, 00:45   Link #294
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
You make a good point here. The fact that she said Beatrice gave her the umbrella, while still state "she is here" (invisible and without any corporeal form) means even when Maria didn't lie, someone still have some ways to give her the umbrella and make it looks like Beatrice did it. Remember Kumasawa (the old woman) mentioned that the body of Beatrice in the pictured was also a girl being possessed? How about some1 turn up with sudden great knowledge of Beatrice and completely different act that can persuade Maria that she/he is curretly possessed by Beatrice then give her the umbrella and the letter (made from the ring that he/she got it).


It's true that at first i expected the 1st letter is 100% from Beatrice because the content sound "witch-like". But such knowledge can be attained from the servants or from Kinzo (especially how much they believe in her). If the one who wrote it didn't do so, Kinzo (if by chance can see it) can recognise it's a fake right away.

But now Kinzo was missing, so whether the 1st letter is fake or not, any letter from now on can say the craziest thing possible ("I, Beatrice, has murdered Eva and Hideyoshi.... i gonna kill Batter next and adopt Maria to be my child", for e.g. ) and everyone will still believe it's from the same person that sent last time
The subs say "that was when she possessed a human form". The sentence did not say when she possessed a human. The meaning of the first sentence is more like as if Beatrice was a human then somehow lost her human form.

The problem with assuming that she can possess people is that we can simply reason Beatrice possessed both Eva and Hideyoshi to stab themselves on the face. This won't really make a great solution to the mystery.
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Old 2009-07-17, 02:58   Link #295
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Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
The subs say "that was when she possessed a human form". The sentence did not say when she possessed a human. The meaning of the first sentence is more like as if Beatrice was a human then somehow lost her human form.

The problem with assuming that she can possess people is that we can simply reason Beatrice possessed both Eva and Hideyoshi to stab themselves on the face. This won't really make a great solution to the mystery.
If we assuming Beatrice killed Eva, Hideyoshi and others, then we won't have to worry if she can possess people or not. She can easily kill people as a witch even when her only super ability is to stay in incorporeal form (which surely untrue)


The point here is whether Maria (and the servants) believes Beatrice can possess others or not. Because if so then the actual culprit can fake his/her identity as Beatrice in front of these people, and used that as his/her advantage
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Old 2009-07-17, 07:10   Link #296
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
One thing: No, Shannon was actually immensely happy, but weirdly enough in the anime, she is shown very concerned and reserved. But it is the other way around: she is really overwhelmed in joy when George gave her the ring, then couldn't stay calm due to the emotion overload and made up her excuse that she has to go to the mansion.
Actually this was one of the most awkward thing in this episode.

Quote:
HIDEYOSHI: How did Shannon face look when you parted ways?

*Flashback of Shannon's face with a serious and somewhat troubled expression*

GEORGE: She had a wonderful smile...
WTF?
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Old 2009-07-17, 07:52   Link #297
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First when Kanon and Genji comes to say that dinner is ready at the door of Eve and Hideyoshi there's no drawing at the door. But after they leave and Kanon returns, the door suddently has a drawing on it.

Let's assume that Eve and Hideyoshi is dead already when Kanon and Genji arrives at the door the first time. This means the killer already is done with his work inside, I'm not going to speculate how they were killed, but prove that there is at least one human killer in this story.
Who? I don't know, but probably one who is presumed dead or missing.

If Eve and Hideyoshi already has been killed when Kanon and Genji first arrive, there is no need for anyone to enter from the outside (which was the side the drawing was on) to get in to kill them. If they needed to get out from the locked room and still keep it locked from the inside after they left the drawing would have been on the inside of the door.

I think that either there was a secret way into the room, or that the killer was in the room from the killing until the survivors had come to check and left again ( in this case the killer would have had an accomplice to draw the drawing on the outside of the door ). And that the drawing was so the others would believe that the killer must have already left the room.

I might be way off, but I still can't understand why there's no drawing on the door the first time Kanon and Genji are there if Eve and Hideyoshi already are dead. I think it can be concluded that it is not the work of Beatrice, because it wouldn't make any sense.
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:33   Link #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnark View Post
First when Kanon and Genji comes to say that dinner is ready at the door of Eve and Hideyoshi there's no drawing at the door. But after they leave and Kanon returns, the door suddently has a drawing on it.

Let's assume that Eve and Hideyoshi is dead already when Kanon and Genji arrives at the door the first time. This means the killer already is done with his work inside, I'm not going to speculate how they were killed, but prove that there is at least one human killer in this story.
Who? I don't know, but probably one who is presumed dead or missing.

If Eve and Hideyoshi already has been killed when Kanon and Genji first arrive, there is no need for anyone to enter from the outside (which was the side the drawing was on) to get in to kill them. If they needed to get out from the locked room and still keep it locked from the inside after they left the drawing would have been on the inside of the door.

I think that either there was a secret way into the room, or that the killer was in the room from the killing until the survivors had come to check and left again ( in this case the killer would have had an accomplice to draw the drawing on the outside of the door ). And that the drawing was so the others would believe that the killer must have already left the room.

I might be way off, but I still can't understand why there's no drawing on the door the first time Kanon and Genji are there if Eve and Hideyoshi already are dead. I think it can be concluded that it is not the work of Beatrice, because it wouldn't make any sense.
Well remember that Beatrice is claimed to be a witch, and if she has witch-like powers she isn't necessarily limited by logic, much less human physical limitations.
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:34   Link #299
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually this was one of the most awkward thing in this episode.



WTF?
George is blind or he was describing Shannon's feelings rather than her outward appearance.
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Old 2009-07-17, 09:21   Link #300
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well remember that Beatrice is claimed to be a witch, and if she has witch-like powers she isn't necessarily limited by logic, much less human physical limitations.
Well as said before: Beatrice has been seen by the servants as gold butterflies, and if this is the case it would mean that she easily could have come past the crack in the door and entered the room.


Spoiler for Meaning of Magic Seal on door:
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