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Old 2009-07-18, 01:51   Link #321
Ithekro
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Are there any varnishes that start out clear and then darken as they cure or dry? I've heard of some stories that use things like this, but all I'm remembering is one that disappears after a time so that it appears someone is crazy in thinking there is blood on the walls. This case it is reversed, or could seem that way if actual blood isn't used, and it wasn't painted between the time the servents found the door locked and they discovered the painted seal when they returned to cut the chain.

Just something to think about.
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Old 2009-07-18, 01:55   Link #322
Goilveig
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Originally Posted by Tamad View Post
There IS also the question of why Genji asked Kanon to also fetch Kumasawa, because she wasn't really needed to open the door. Buy more time? Genji could quite possibly be an accomplice in all this, and could have been the one to write the markings on the door.
In the VN I believe it's explained as him not wanting Kanon to be alone. Since he clearly suspected foul play, it could be to protect Kanon against allegations he cut the chain and then killed the couple. If Kumasawa is with him, she can vouch that they were dead as soon as the door was opened.
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Old 2009-07-18, 02:09   Link #323
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Are there any varnishes that start out clear and then darken as they cure or dry? I've heard of some stories that use things like this, but all I'm remembering is one that disappears after a time so that it appears someone is crazy in thinking there is blood on the walls. This case it is reversed, or could seem that way if actual blood isn't used, and it wasn't painted between the time the servents found the door locked and they discovered the painted seal when they returned to cut the chain.

Just something to think about.
I really don't think any chemical can work that way, especially in this case. If you paint something like that, what if Genji can see the transparent liquid as he approach the door (when you are caution, you do in everything)? Even if he didn't, what if he try to knock on the door, or worse try to ram the door down.... his hand and back will be painted with red just few moment after that and the trick will be exposed
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Old 2009-07-18, 03:16   Link #324
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I really don't think any chemical can work that way, especially in this case. If you paint something like that, what if Genji can see the transparent liquid as he approach the door (when you are caution, you do in everything)? Even if he didn't, what if he try to knock on the door, or worse try to ram the door down.... his hand and back will be painted with red just few moment after that and the trick will be exposed
Another problem will be the culprit has to design special goggle to look at it because he has to be able to see what he's drawing considering the sophistication of the painting (the pattern and the letters).
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Old 2009-07-18, 05:18   Link #325
kingsky123
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question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?
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Old 2009-07-18, 05:23   Link #326
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Originally Posted by kingsky123 View Post
question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?
If the current trend is to be followed, the Golden Witch is the benefactor.
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Old 2009-07-18, 09:50   Link #327
maximilianjenus
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Originally Posted by kingsky123 View Post
question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?
They kinda skipped it in the anime but it's on the official site anyway, just in case.

naw.. I will give the novel a chance, let's just say that there is always some far away relative that can inherit the money. That is, if everyone dies, but since there is gold in play what if someone survives, takes some gold and then dissapears to some island ? I think you guys are being very closed off in the motives, I mean, there are 20 billion yen worth of gold in play, anybody can easily be tempted to just kill everyone else and dissapear with the gold (or partof it, a single ingot is already worth a lot of money).
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Old 2009-07-18, 10:43   Link #328
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
They kinda skipped it in the anime but it's on the official site anyway, just in case.

naw.. I will give the novel a chance, let's just say that there is always some far away relative that can inherit the money. That is, if everyone dies, but since there is gold in play what if someone survives, takes some gold and then dissapears to some island ? I think you guys are being very closed off in the motives, I mean, there are 20 billion yen worth of gold in play, anybody can easily be tempted to just kill everyone else and dissapear with the gold (or partof it, a single ingot is already worth a lot of money).
Yeah, it's pretty easy to get sidetracked with all the "witchery" that is going on. The most plausible motive for one or more in the family is money. We know that all the blood relatives are in great need of money as soon as possible. Even without the legend of the gold, there is still a lot of money to inherit from Kinzo.
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:15   Link #329
Mei19
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By the way the episode ended at the evening of October 5th right? The happenings only happened between October 4th and 5th according to the epitaph thread. Are the killings gonna happen every hour now??

My thoughts right now.

-Eva and what'shisface's killer either has/had early access inside the room via a trapdoor. The killer can enter the room through the ceiling or below. There's a lot of possibilities!
-Kinzo is the obviously the most suspicious of them all so there is nothing wrong with narrowing the suspects down to him.
-The killer doesn't HAVE to be one.
-Beatrice might be a persona someone brainwashes himself with so the epitaph gets carried on.
-The brat Maria is POSSESSED. by Beatrice XD


More BS-talk from me regarding the butterfly! XD Because I like to think out of the box.
-It's a unique butterfly of Rokkenjima that emits some type of drug and pollutes the mind. Or has been prowling around plants that has the same effects.
-George Ushiromiya is twisted.
-Natsuhi is twisted. Might be working with Kinzo.
-Genji is an accomplice.
-The killer of the 6 and the killer of the 2 might not be the same person/people.

To end my speech: I love Kanon. He's a good furniture. Any reason behind that way of thinking?
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:29   Link #330
Marion
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As far as furniture goes it's explained that the servants believe themselves to be furniture, only living to serve the Ushiromiya family. Only Genji, Kanon and Shannon think of themselves this way - Gohda and Kumasawa up to this point in the VN never talked about themselves as furniture.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:11   Link #331
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Quote:
By the way the episode ended at the evening of October 5th right? The happenings only happened between October 4th and 5th according to the epitaph thread. Are the killings gonna happen every hour now??
I don't know the exact time (I never pay attention to the clock °°; ) but yes it's around evening.
Supposedly the first six were murdered after midnight so October 5. You can get it from the the fact Nanjo said they were dead since about six hours. A lot of time passed since that and the second crime.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:42   Link #332
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First I'd like to thank you Gnark for that link because apparently that seal on the shed door is suppose to do somewhat the same thing as the seal we saw in this episode.

I've been thinking about the seals and whether they work or not and this is another reason why I find this mystery so fascinating. The idea of them actually working is really silly but yet we can't really just cast them not working aside, otherwise we're just flat out admitting the killer is one of servants. Remember think back to the part with the one key that opens the shed and to what Eva said "normally, the family doesn't go into the servant's room." That means everyone outside of the servants is very unfamiliar with where everything is kept and what key opens what. So otherwise throwing the bodies in the shed either requires someone who knows all that or requires that particular seal on the shed door working or requires the shed door not even being locked to begin with (highly doubt that tho).

However that's not to say I think the all seals actually work. Why is that? Look up the scorpion symbol (there's only one of them) in that link by Gnark. I won't say what it does here but it's not just a magic repellant. The description for it pretty much would completely aim the suspicion all on Natsuhi (especially after realizing Battler lost the other one). So like with the servants (if you don't beileve the seals work), if you do believe they all work then it's like flat out admitting Natsuhi is the killer.

So what exactly are we supposed to believe here? I think only some/one of them worked while the other(s) didn't. The one(s) that did work was/were written by a witch, the one(s) that didn't was/were written by a normal human. I don't think any normal human on this island can make these seals work. Could it have been Beatrice? I'm not sure, her "true form" seems to indicate that it's not her. Maria? Possibly, hell wasn't there quite a bit of speculation way back pages ago the idea of Maria being a witch? Perhaps that could be the role she plays in all this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post

-The killer of the 6 and the killer of the 2 might not be the same person/people.
That may actually be true. There isn't really much backing it up at this current time but nothing really dissapproves that theory either.
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Old 2009-07-18, 17:24   Link #333
plzd0ntkeelme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlson View Post
First I'd like to thank you Gnark for that link because apparently that seal on the shed door is suppose to do somewhat the same thing as the seal we saw in this episode.

I've been thinking about the seals and whether they work or not and this is another reason why I find this mystery so fascinating. The idea of them actually working is really silly but yet we can't really just cast them not working aside, otherwise we're just flat out admitting the killer is one of servants. Remember think back to the part with the one key that opens the shed and to what Eva said "normally, the family doesn't go into the servant's room." That means everyone outside of the servants is very unfamiliar with where everything is kept and what key opens what. So otherwise throwing the bodies in the shed either requires someone who knows all that or requires that particular seal on the shed door working or requires the shed door not even being locked to begin with (highly doubt that tho).

However that's not to say I think the all seals actually work. Why is that? Look up the scorpion symbol (there's only one of them) in that link by Gnark. I won't say what it does here but it's not just a magic repellant. The description for it pretty much would completely aim the suspicion all on Natsuhi (especially after realizing Battler lost the other one). So like with the servants (if you don't beileve the seals work), if you do believe they all work then it's like flat out admitting Natsuhi is the killer.

So what exactly are we supposed to believe here? I think only some/one of them worked while the other(s) didn't. The one(s) that did work was/were written by a witch, the one(s) that didn't was/were written by a normal human. I don't think any normal human on this island can make these seals work. Could it have been Beatrice? I'm not sure, her "true form" seems to indicate that it's not her. Maria? Possibly, hell wasn't there quite a bit of speculation way back pages ago the idea of Maria being a witch? Perhaps that could be the role she plays in all this...



That may actually be true. There isn't really much backing it up at this current time but nothing really dissapproves that theory either.
I think someone already mentions about the problem with assuming the seal works. The seal at the Eva/Hideyoshi's door is supposed to be to unlock any locks. Yet the seal appears after the murder is already carried out. If the seal truly works, the killer would draw it upon entering the room then finish the job. With the timing of the seal being drawn, the killer's blatantly just drawing it to imply supernatural murder.
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Old 2009-07-18, 19:03   Link #334
orion
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How fast can someone take a door off its hinges and replace it with a new one? If there was a duplicate door in the next room with the drawings on it, then it can be replaced fast without notice.

I agree that the killer was already in the room under the bed probably and might still be there. It's doubtful that both Kanon and the lady are going to stay to watch dead bodies. When they leave in shock and fright, the killer exists the scene.

Also, the door was left ajar for Kanon to cut the chain. Wouldn't it have been more discrete to shut the door? If it's not locked, then it doesn't matter if the door is closed. It's like someone wanted to leave the impression that the chain is in place.

Also, there's not enough blood from Hideyoshi. Eva is definitely a "fresh" stab. The bath water should be red. People normally don't take a bath and a shower at the same time so maybe the bath was used to get rid of some evidence. Hideyoshi's wound might have taken place after he died and he was placed in the bathtub. Maybe he was poisoned first, head wound second and then placed in bath.

Maybe someone is sprinkling ricin on the food or using botulin toxin or sarin.
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Old 2009-07-18, 19:20   Link #335
chounokoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
How fast can someone take a door off its hinges and replace it with a new one? If there was a duplicate door in the next room with the drawings on it, then it can be replaced fast without notice.
It's not so hard to do that, but I think this theory leaves 2 things out of the picture (I thought of it myself at first).
1. The only thing that could be done is to exchange the doors from the inside, that would mean, the killer would have had to take a door with him to the crime scene.
The hinges of such western doors are mostly on the side they open to (at least I only know that mechanism).
2. The original door would have to be disposed of as quickly as possible. It wouldn't look very supernatural if they found an unhinged door in Eva's and Hideyoshi's room along with their corpses.
I can't think of any quick solution to do that. Of course the trapdoor would remain, but what use would then be the additional door...apart from having the seal already attached.

Oh and another problem that I thought up, even though it's more minor...the killer would have to produce a door, that is an exact replica of the original door...if not I think the servants at least should notice.
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Old 2009-07-18, 19:41   Link #336
Karlson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
I think someone already mentions about the problem with assuming the seal works. The seal at the Eva/Hideyoshi's door is supposed to be to unlock any locks. Yet the seal appears after the murder is already carried out. If the seal truly works, the killer would draw it upon entering the room then finish the job. With the timing of the seal being drawn, the killer's blatantly just drawing it to imply supernatural murder.
That's why I think some seals might've worked while others didn't. There's too many inconsistencies to believe the seal here in this second twilight actually worked. My problem is however when I apply the idea of the seals not working...the first twilight counters my theory.

Let's assume the seal on the shed door doesn't work here. That would mean the only way to open that shed is through the one key in the servant's room. And that place is only familiar to the servants; The family is never usually allowed in there. I'm not sure if it's locked and only accessable to the servants (didn't seem to show that in the anime), however as Battler said the killer of the first twilight had to know the mansion damn well if they had used that key, and that kind of evidence would directly point towards the servants.

This is the exact opposite of what the second twilight has implied where the most likely possiblity of what happened completely clears the servants of any suspicion, unless there was some freakish reason why Eva and Hideyoshi were alive and just not responding to Genji.

So even when I apply the idea of both the seals in each twilight not working, the first and second twilight contradict one another. This is where my confusion is coming from. It's why I also think Mei19 could be right. The killer of the first twilight could be different from the killer of this twilight. One might be among the remaining servants, while the other one might be within the family.

Edit: Probably would be wise for me to say the seal found in the first twilight does open locks too.
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:16   Link #337
orion
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
It's not so hard to do that, but I think this theory leaves 2 things out of the picture (I thought of it myself at first).
1. The only thing that could be done is to exchange the doors from the inside, that would mean, the killer would have had to take a door with him to the crime scene.
The hinges of such western doors are mostly on the side they open to (at least I only know that mechanism).
2. The original door would have to be disposed of as quickly as possible. It wouldn't look very supernatural if they found an unhinged door in Eva's and Hideyoshi's room along with their corpses.
I can't think of any quick solution to do that. Of course the trapdoor would remain, but what use would then be the additional door...apart from having the seal already attached.

Oh and another problem that I thought up, even though it's more minor...the killer would have to produce a door, that is an exact replica of the original door...if not I think the servants at least should notice.
It's not too hard to produce spare doors. They would need to have some in storage as they are on an island. The old door could be placed in an unused room close by or underneath the bed. Their bedroom contains 2 beds. The doors on the rooms prob are all alike.

Or maybe thermochromic paint was used. Clear to red when a heat source is applied. That would work for all the doors that were marked so far. And it would mean no door switching.
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:27   Link #338
Ithekro
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There is still a problem changing the door. You still have to get the chain on from the inside of the room. The hinges can only be gotten to from the outside of the door with the door open.

While you could be on the inside and undo the chain and open the door for removal, With the chain on you can't get to the hinges to remove the door. And even if you replace the door you still have to put the chain back in place...

...unless the chain is already detached (or cut with that sleave over it) and it just looks like it is in place when Kanon comes back. I don't recall him trying to open the door the second time. He just reached in and cut the chain, then opened the door. That doesn't seem likely since there was tension on the chain for it to be cut, but then those kinds of cutters might just cut that good.
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:39   Link #339
orion
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is still a problem changing the door. You still have to get the chain on from the inside of the room. The hinges can only be gotten to from the outside of the door with the door open.

While you could be on the inside and undo the chain and open the door for removal, With the chain on you can't get to the hinges to remove the door. And even if you replace the door you still have to put the chain back in place...

...unless the chain is already detached (or cut with that sleave over it) and it just looks like it is in place when Kanon comes back. I don't recall him trying to open the door the second time. He just reached in and cut the chain, then opened the door. That doesn't seem likely since there was tension on the chain for it to be cut, but then those kinds of cutters might just cut that good.
But the killer is still in the room even when Kanon enters. He's under the bed imo.

Thermochromic paint gets around the door switching.

Shouldn't Genji had been able to see something was wrong in the room from his vantage point?
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:48   Link #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
It's not too hard to produce spare doors. They would need to have some in storage as they are on an island. The old door could be placed in an unused room close by or underneath the bed. Their bedroom contains 2 beds. The doors on the rooms prob are all alike.

Or maybe thermochromic paint was used. Clear to red when a heat source is applied. That would work for all the doors that were marked so far. And it would mean no door switching.
I don't know about you, but I think it is highly unusual to have SPARE doors at your house. Even if it is a mansion I think most of the furniture and the house itself is build on tradition and I highly doubt they keep such things in masses.
To storage the door in another room the person would either have to be in posession of a master key (I don't think it has yet been stated how many there are) or in posession of the key to that exact room. I also imagine that Eva's and Hideyoshi's room is in a guest wing of the mansion, so the person would have to have good knowledge of which room is 'unused'.

Thermocromic Paint is also a neat idea, problem is, as already stated, you would have to apply a source of either heat or could to actually get the effect and that temperature would have to stay stable.
Of course we cannot say for sure that Ryukishi would know this fact, but I think it is too vague to actually hold up as a point in a real debate regarding how this was painted.
Underneath the bed would also be a rather foolish attempt to hide it, because that's of course one of the places where you would look at first after entering a crime scene...added to the fact that most guest-beds in western-style mansions aren't build so that you can fit a wooden door of that size under them.
And the doors would probably be alike, but it would imply that before that, there was another door with the seal painted already on it.

I know where you are getting at and with time it would be an intricate and intelligent plan...but not in an amount of maybe at most 10-15 minutes (depending on how large the distance to the kitchen might be).

Assuming there are two or more killers of course, one could have given the other a sign to paint the seal on the door as soon as the door had been opened and then go into hiding again.

Quote:
Shouldn't Genji had been able to see something was wrong in the room from his vantage point?
Something wrong like, there are corpses inside?
No, not at all I think. The bathroom is not to be seen or reached from the door and the bed Eva is lying on is in a blind spot in a corner of the room, that you are unable to see from the door, because the wall in front of it blocks the view.
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