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Old 2009-07-25, 01:25   Link #421
Karlson
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Ok I'm just gonna backtrack to the point before this whole string of murders started here since this theory was touched upon by Battler and it reamins to be one of the few theories left for me to believe...

Our 6 victims of the first twilight. We have one who for some strange reason knew more than he should have with the first twilight coming in Rudolf. Then you have Krauss' with that gold bar scene not to mention his wife is still alive. And as far as I know Ghoda and Rosa have a nice lead as far as a motive is concerned given they sit at the bottom among the inheritance list for the servants and direct family members respectively. However I think the one I'm turning my suspicion to now out of the bunch is Shannon.

Have I gone crazy? Maybe...it's an out there assumption, but lets remember that George (the man who proposed to her) is still alive currently. And if anyone would've tampered with the phone lines it would have to be the killer and I can't imagine anyone but the servants (outside of Kinzo and maybe Krauss) knowing how to tamper with that. And just thinking back to Shannon's decision to go to the mansion when that wasn't her duty in the first place...we as the viewers see a different reason for why she went there and has given us the impression that her death was a case of "wrong place at the wrong time". But is it? That very well could be a cover-up for the real reason she went to mansion instead. In my brain it all seems to be falling into place. Plus I still find it strange that Beatrice was following her for a fair bit of time (at least 5 minutes before midnight). Out of everyone that has died Shannon seemed to be the one I pitied the most. All the signs seem to point the suspicion away from her for various reasons, so I guess right now I'm assuming the most unexpected and surprising result at this point
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:01   Link #422
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So if we assume no body switches, then those four are the only four left alive? Hmm. Then body switch or 19th person would seem like the only nonsupernatural explanation. I can't think of any sort of automatic trap that one could set up which would kill three people in different places, wreck their faces, stab them in appropriate body parts, fix the phone lines, and convince a kid to call and start singing some creepy song.
Of course the evidence points everywhere, which is probably some of the intention of this show/game. Kinzo has the (insane) motives and would have had ample time to plan/write the letters/set up traps etc. Maria seems seriously disturbed and it wouldn't be unbelievable that she would try to do it...but without magic, she would need help to pull it off. I'm not even going to to sort it out.
Also, the twilights are sure flying by fast. We've already finished the eight. Only two left.
Spoiler for Not sure if this is taboo. Might be spoilers.:
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:03   Link #423
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I'd like to point out that having Beatrice as a character does not automatically mean there is a witch up and about. She could easily be just a human Beatrice or someone else pretending to be a witch.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:14   Link #424
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Way back on page 1 I predicted that the last survivors before the end would be Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Natsuhi. And, well, looks like I was right. I deserve a cookie.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:27   Link #425
risingstar3110
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Let's "turn the chess board over"....

This is only Episode 1 of the game, right? ....and we still have at least 3 more Episodes before we have enough chess pieces to speculate everything. So instead trying to plot out the culprit, i will try to make some sense with gave-out clues and try to connect it later as we exposed with more materials.....?
As stater, i think it would be wise to suspect that Ryuukishi hided all important clues by diverging our train of thoughts into bigger events

So what could be important but "seems" to be shadowed in the whole Episode 1?
- Maria's rose ("Maria no bara" xD). Its disappearance is importance, and i don't think the whole screens just to build up to let Maria meet Beatrice and deliver her letter. Was the handkerchief and the rose important, or was that spot in the garden was so important that someone have to put their hand into such harmless rose?

- Kinzo's ring and Beatrice's letter: Beatrice should be able to get his ring easily if she has an incorporate body as everyone believed she is. But why he have to throw it out the window, and then a short while later, Beatrice (if it was her) can pick up and make a letter with it? The most significant thing the ring can do is creating that seal for the letter, so if there are more than one ring, and there are two different senders with different motives, then it would make sense

- magic circles and hand prints on Natsuhi's door: we immediately assume the culprit draw these when he/she kills someone to revive or point the finger to Beatrice (or Beatrice used it to kill someone)..... But since we are so sure about that, it's likely that it is not true.
We always suspect either someone inside the house or Beatrice killed everyone. But it's possible to have a third party here. What if there are more than one killer with different motives, and the magic circle(by culprit or by Ryuukishi) to make us audience have the feelings that there is only one culprit?.

- killing method: why everyone was killed by certain manner? Was it just to a)gross out the audience b)make all of us suspect that some1 still alive c)suspect that there is only1 culprit?
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:46   Link #426
Ithekro
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Does anyone find it odd that of all the cast, the doctor didn't get introduced like everyone else in the first episode? Every family member and servant got an introduction shot...but the doctor didn't.
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:25   Link #427
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Does anyone find it odd that of all the cast, the doctor didn't get introduced like everyone else in the first episode? Every family member and servant got an introduction shot...but the doctor didn't.
Has Kinzo been introduced as well? If not then maybe because these two appear on-screen before the whole introduction started
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:26   Link #428
Ithekro
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Kinzo got an introduction when they tried to get him to come down to dinner.
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:41   Link #429
Karlson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Does anyone find it odd that of all the cast, the doctor didn't get introduced like everyone else in the first episode? Every family member and servant got an introduction shot...but the doctor didn't.
Yeah I found that strange too but I didn't really pay it much mind. Probably just another inconsistency by DEEN much akin to Shannon's tears


And yes Kinzo did get introduced. Happens right after Krauss' introduction and right before Genji's
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:19   Link #430
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
Way back on page 1 I predicted that the last survivors before the end would be Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Natsuhi. And, well, looks like I was right. I deserve a cookie.
Ah, it was you? You've been mentioned in the anime speculation thread for VN readers, "wow this one got it right!" ha ha.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:23   Link #431
MeoTwister5
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I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.
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Old 2009-07-25, 10:17   Link #432
maximilianjenus
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I would rather not talk about my VN predictions as I predicted characters that show much later to show in the mansion before people starts dying.

Also, I hope deen does a kinzo dressed as beatrice theory scene, that would be the only way to top kinzo hiding under the bed.
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:38   Link #433
Unknown Soldier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ah, it was you? You've been mentioned in the anime speculation thread for VN readers, "wow this one got it right!" ha ha.
Having not read the VN, I haven't been in that thread at all for fear of spoilers. But that's pretty awesome nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.
If you go and read my post on the first page of this thread, I explained my reasoning for my prediction pretty thoroughly. Of course everything I speculate is based on the fact that I think Beatrice is real and she's the one going around killing people. Also, I think that Maria is a witch. I'm just throwing that out there because I'm feeling like I'm pretty awesome right now.
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:41   Link #434
D3monicWolv3s
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
Also, I hope deen does a kinzo dressed as beatrice theory scene, that would be the only way to top kinzo hiding under the bed.
The bearded Beatrice.
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:45   Link #435
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Kinzo: BEARD-ORICHEEEEEEEE
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Old 2009-07-25, 18:54   Link #436
Tamad
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You know, if it's not Kinzo who's getting my blame, then I can't say Natsuhi is all that clear of suspicion either. It may have just been the strain and pressure of the situation, but I found the way Natsuhi handled the problem in the study really odd. She sent the servants and Maria out of the study under the assumption that one of them is the killer or they're all accomplices, but if I were in her shoes... that would have been the last thing I would have wanted to do. Not only would you be putting the servants and Maria in danger, but you're pretty much leaving a potential killer unsupervised. If I have a gun, I would feel a lot safer keeping my eye on the suspects (three elderly people and a child too mind you, I doubt they would be able to do much even if they ganged up) rather than let the potential killer roam free around the mansion. It would have been safer to tie them up or something and keep your eye on them until dawn, but instead she let the killer roam free. The only reason I can see her doing that is because she wanted to throw the suspicion onto the servants and Maria, while in turn making her look like the good guy. All of her motive involving the money and Kinzo could still be there, hell there could even be a motive we don't know of yet, but this theory would of course require an accomplice. However, I'm still not sure if that accomplice is one of the eighteen or an outside party...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlson View Post
Ok I'm just gonna backtrack to the point before this whole string of murders started here since this theory was touched upon by Battler and it reamins to be one of the few theories left for me to believe...

Our 6 victims of the first twilight. We have one who for some strange reason knew more than he should have with the first twilight coming in Rudolf. Then you have Krauss' with that gold bar scene not to mention his wife is still alive. And as far as I know Ghoda and Rosa have a nice lead as far as a motive is concerned given they sit at the bottom among the inheritance list for the servants and direct family members respectively. However I think the one I'm turning my suspicion to now out of the bunch is Shannon.

Have I gone crazy? Maybe...it's an out there assumption, but lets remember that George (the man who proposed to her) is still alive currently. And if anyone would've tampered with the phone lines it would have to be the killer and I can't imagine anyone but the servants (outside of Kinzo and maybe Krauss) knowing how to tamper with that. And just thinking back to Shannon's decision to go to the mansion when that wasn't her duty in the first place...we as the viewers see a different reason for why she went there and has given us the impression that her death was a case of "wrong place at the wrong time". But is it? That very well could be a cover-up for the real reason she went to mansion instead. In my brain it all seems to be falling into place. Plus I still find it strange that Beatrice was following her for a fair bit of time (at least 5 minutes before midnight). Out of everyone that has died Shannon seemed to be the one I pitied the most. All the signs seem to point the suspicion away from her for various reasons, so I guess right now I'm assuming the most unexpected and surprising result at this point
How would one explain her body in the shed then? Either everyone coincidentally misidentified that sixth corpse as Shannon, the real Shannon got a perfect replica body double, or everyone in the shed was lying to those outside. She's probably the one I would suspect the least, which in turn like you said could make her the best candidate for the killer... I'm just not seeing any motive or reasoning though, so maybe more light could be she upon it in the upcoming arcs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Kinzo got an introduction when they tried to get him to come down to dinner.
Assuming it wasn't just a blunder on DEEN's part as Karlson then, then either Nanjo doesn't really exist (a ghost or a memory of some sort? If witches really do exist then this can't be too farfetched), or that isn't who everyone thinks he is. Nanjo does have an air of suspicion about him, but I've never really been able to put my finger on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D3monicWolv3s View Post
The bearded Beatrice.
The sad thing is I can imagine Kinzo being obsessed with Beatrice enough to be one with Beatrice.
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Old 2009-07-25, 20:31   Link #437
Ithekro
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Well Natsuhi was questioned about her decision to send them all away. She admitted that if something happened, then she made a mistake. Perhaps the meaning of the episode title "Blunder".

Interesting thing is...if the docter doesn't exist...then why is everyone seeing him? Or it it just Battler seeing him incorrectly? This does bring up an interesting question. So we don't know if there is a 19th person on the island...what if there isn't, but one or two of the 18 we "see" isn't who we think they are? Then it gets sort of spooky.

I assume everyone has a motive (probably even Battler). The servents might only be following orders. Those with the golden wing are suppose to be loyal in the extreme to Kinzo. The question then comes, who else has a motive? We can't answer that because we've not met anyone that isn't these 18 people, so or list of suspects is small. Is there anyone that can be completely ruled out in this instance?

Probably the only two I've write off as innocent of the later murders is Eva and her husband. I can't write them off completely for the First Twilight...but after that they are quite dead. They could have commited the first crime and were then killed so that no one would find out who killed the first six (first rule of assassination...kill the assassin).

Kanon was alive the last time we saw him, though unless Jessica is in on the plot, he is likely dead. He also sounded rather defiant at the end. He might have been in on it, but then decided it wasn't worth it, or perhaps he wanted to set his own course for once. We don't know who he was actually talking to...he might not either. Only that he suddenly has a stake in his chest. We saw no hand put it there even on the cut back to "non-golden butterfly vision". So this suggests it was either thrown or fired/launched out of something to impale him....or his stabbed himself somehow to make it look like he was murdered....
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Old 2009-07-26, 02:25   Link #438
Mirakuru
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Wow... each episode is just leaving me with more questions. XD One of the original six murdered faking his/her death and being the actual culprit makes sense, but... who would that person have used as his/her replacement? There were 18 people introduced, and so far we know for sure that at least 5 people are still alive, while at least 13 people have been murdered... and this adds up to 18. Whether somebody has a body double or whatnot, there has to be a 19th (or maybe a 20th as well... or even more =P) person on the island for this theory to be correct. And the way everything is playing out, it seems almost impossible for an outsider to not exist. I'm not saying that Beatrice, or a witch, is committing the murders, but maybe one of the 18 'confirmed' people is cooperating with somebody else/others?

And I also find it interesting that Maria was the only one of the four whom Natsuhi forced out of Kinzo's study to still be alive. The fact that she was facing the wall and singing a song (plus the phone was dangling from its receiver... I don't think she made the call) makes it seem like the culprit wanted to protect her from witnessing the crimes first-hand. There's also the deal with the scorpion charm Battler gave Maria before she left, but I'm still 'anti-fantasy' and I think a human is behind the murders. =P

By the way, the preview for next episode seems quite ominous. T_T I have a feeling that the remaining survivors will be killed off, following the epitaph's words. I'm still wondering how somebody can reach the Golden Land if nobody can survive in the end, but... at this point I've really gotten to like all of the remaining characters and I'd be pretty sad if any of them died next episode. =[
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Old 2009-07-26, 09:53   Link #439
Narokath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.
Hehe, I haven't played the VN but I actually predicted Eva and Hideyoshi to die on the second night purely because it made the most sense as "those who are close" in the Epitaph. I interpretted it as a kind of 3rd party in a relationship, so it made sense for it to be George as the killer or mastermind.

A lot of the theories in this thread have been suggested in the anime too by Battler

Personally, I can't outrule anyone. The only person who comes close to being taken from spotlight is Kanon, don't even know if he actually died. Even the dead are potential masterminds. It's possible that the entirety of the servants are in on this epitaph, and they told Maria to turn around and sing while they killed themselves in the way suggested by the writing.

If this is how you bring forth Beatrice, she might appear next episode; But I doubt this is the answer to the epitaph.

Last edited by Narokath; 2009-07-26 at 10:03.
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Old 2009-07-26, 11:12   Link #440
kagato3
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Well given the whole unbrella bit with Maria, Beatrice can only be Kinzo, a 19th person, or someone is a very good actor.

Kinzo's death seems a bit odd. First why burn the body? This doesn't seem to help any one after the inheritance since it would only delay it. It also doesn't seem to be a stealthy way of getting rid of it either as the burning smell would be sure to draw people to it it would be much easyer to either dump it in the sea or take it out to the middle of nowhere to dump it. Also why would the killer stay around that long? the body would have had to have been burniing for a while for people to have smelled it through out the house. Intresting we don't see Genji between when he sends Kanon out and when they discovered his body.

The stakes aren't the murder weapon for the last 3. none of those wounds were likely to have killed them in the time it took to get there. I'm guessing that what killed them is either what damaged their face or what that damage was used to cover up. Could someone be killing with a rifle filled with buckshot?
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