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Old 2009-07-10, 13:04   Link #41
Ithekro
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Quote:
At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
I think you got your BAD END right there.
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:06   Link #42
chounokoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
From what I seen so far, I highly doubt Beatrice exists. There are 18 ppl in the house so if someone outside is wandering around, surely someone must've caught it. Unless Beatrice is truly a witch who can pop out of nowhere behind Maria and kill all those ppl with her supernatural power. But then that's not really a mystery element anymore which I think is what the series is going for.
But assuming this is a rather large island for only a small part of one family to live on it, wouldn't it be possible for a 19th person to be hiding somewhere?
There has to be a reason why there is the legend of the witch of the forest around Rokkenjima, hasn't it?!
Quote:
I wonder if there is a reason for choosing those six or if they were just randomly selected to be sacrificed for the first twilight. I mean, I expected only most of the parents to die and not the servants.
Is there maybe a certain advantage that could be attained by killing those who were killed? Or does it change anything on the island, except to create chaos among the survivors?

Quote:
It's not likely that in the first arc someone is going to make it to the 10th night and find the gold, so Natsuhi (the key holder) will be the last to die on the 9th night. Nobody makes it to the 10th night, and that will be the end of the arc.
And doesn't it seem weird to you anime viewers, that the epitaph has a rather conflictive part in itself?

At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold.

So how is the holder of the key, who seems to be adressed as you in the poem, supposed to reach the village of gold, if none is said to survive?
Can dead people reach the village of gold?

I just thought to throw some questions in again, because I always found it very entertaining to be kept moving by those who had read Higurashi, while I was watching the anime.
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:26   Link #43
Ithekro
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Well it says "the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive"....this would assume that the "witch" is still "alive" right? Thus the "you" would be the "witch". Thus whoever survives is the "witch". Sort of makes it difficult to satify the terms of the letter if only the "witch" can win.

Not that that makes any sense...but what else do we have to work with?
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:46   Link #44
Tamad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well it says "the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive"....this would assume that the "witch" is still "alive" right? Thus the "you" would be the "witch". Thus whoever survives is the "witch". Sort of makes it difficult to satify the terms of the letter if only the "witch" can win.

Not that that makes any sense...but what else do we have to work with?
So in the end it's a game in which no one can win? Considering the events on the island are happening just as the epitaph states, can it not be possible for them to find the gold before the ninth twilight? Of course when it does reach that point, the epitaph does seem to contradict itself, but I'll have to agree with you and say that the witch will be the only survivor.

It's confusing though, because Maria is already supposed to have encountered Beatrice, so what exactly does "shall be revived" mean? If Beatrice does exist as a separate person, than it should have been impossible for Maria to have met her because she's still "sleeping". Who gave Maria that letter, and who performed those killings then? My theory is that one of the eighteen playing the part of Beatrice and following the epitaph... perhaps just as a means to reduce the competition for the inheritance. If there's any other underlying motive behind that, I've yet to figure it out... as there's not much info to work with in the first place.

But something else that's been bugging me might throw this theory off. The golden butterflies that have been seen twice or more times now, what exactly are they supposed to symbolize? Any theories, because it could quite possibly be a sign that Beatrice is near, which one again contradicts with my previous theory. I'm giving myself a headache.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazane View Post
I wonder if there is a reason for choosing those six or if they were just randomly selected to be sacrificed for the first twilight. I mean, I expected only most of the parents to die and not the servants.
I've been pondering over this as well, more or less because of what Rudolf told Battler during the night. Rudolf said he was going to die that night, but why would he even think that when there were no signs of hostility within the letter Beatrice provided. Was it just a random hunch, or did he know more about the epitaph then he's letting on? I always found that a little too convenient, and I believe it isn't just random killings... but as for why those select people were killed, I have no idea yet.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:08   Link #45
Ithekro
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Quote:
But something else that's been bugging me might throw this theory off. The golden butterflies that have been seen twice or more times now, what exactly are they supposed to symbolize? Any theories, because it could quite possibly be a sign that Beatrice is near, which one again contradicts with my previous theory. I'm giving myself a headache.
Welcome to Umineko no Naku Koro ni. Enjoy your headache.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:25   Link #46
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold..
There's nothing wrong with the part that tells of the journey that ends, as for the village of gold, it all depends on what this village of gold actually is.

If it is the afterlife, the paradise or a graveyard, it makes sense
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:32   Link #47
Alaya
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Tip on reading epitaph.

1. Read it in Japanese. or
2. Read carefully (to the extreme).

Well, I guess it actually doesn't sound like a tip...
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:43   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamad View Post

It's confusing though, because Maria is already supposed to have encountered Beatrice, so what exactly does "shall be revived" mean? If Beatrice does exist as a separate person, than it should have been impossible for Maria to have met her because she's still "sleeping". Who gave Maria that letter, and who performed those killings then? My theory is that one of the eighteen playing the part of Beatrice and following the epitaph... perhaps just as a means to reduce the competition for the inheritance. If there's any other underlying motive behind that, I've yet to figure it out... as there's not much info to work with in the first place.oh:
FFFFFFFFFFF-
I never even pondered on the letter not being from Beatrice. Although if it was one of the people in the mansion it would have to be someone VERY close to Kinzo in order to get that ring, doubt it was Krauss seeing as how's he's been sakujo'd. Other likely one would be Genji, he is the only one Kinzo trust after all and I don't think it would be TO far fetched for Kinzo to order Genji into doing this in which being the loyal servant he is, Genji would have to obey.

Also, to help in my efforts of solving who could be the one who actually performed the killings, could a VN player PM on if Eva knows about her son's love for Shannon at the moment, nothing else, just that.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:23   Link #49
velvet
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Not to derail the topic, anyone thought about how"Beatrice" introduce her/himself in the letter that Maria read?

An alchemy counsellor? Gold? Does it actually means transmuted gold?
This is the first time in my whole life I heard of alchemy counsellor =_='

Also it may be just me but the blood drawing look like those transmutation circle you saw in FMA...

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Witch Hunt
From now on, the collecting of interest shall take place
The 6 sacrifices = "interest"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Witch hunt
if but a single person fulfills the special clause, I will give back even the interest that I already took.
If the above premise is true, how on earth this is even possible?
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:29   Link #50
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet View Post
The 6 sacrifices = "interest"?
Only a part of it ^_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet View Post
If the above premise is true, how on earth this is even possible?
Well I think you can imagine how Maria would answer this question. This person claims to be a witch after all. Of course if you don't believe this person is a witch then you have no reasons to believe the rest.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:46   Link #51
velvet
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Only a part of it ^_-
Yeah, she will be collecting more, I can see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well I think you can imagine how Maria would answer this question. This person claims to be a witch after all. Of course if you don't believe this person is a witch then you have no reasons to believe the rest.
Which is why I'm curious about the alchemy thing. Alchemy in popular cultures, had been used a lot of time side by side with magic.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:55   Link #52
k//eternal
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Guys, if you've been playing the game or reading the manga, please, PLEASE stop posting in this thread. First-time viewers who want spoilerish answers will come and ask in our threads or find out by playing the game themselves. Maybe it seems fun to talk to people who know a lot less about the story than you do, but you're not really doing them a service.

I've been lurking to see what they come up with, but if you taint it with our own views, that becomes meaningless.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:56   Link #53
Klashikari
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That is correct. It isn't anything better than giving guidance and the like, which is absolutely unsafe regarding the knowledge involving those who played even only 2 episodes already.

Few "guiding" comments have been removed. Therre isn't much for the moment, but this kind of discussion can derail way too much and would lead first viewers to either bad or good tracks, which isn't the purpose of such thread. This thread serve so those who have no prior knowledge can discuss of the possible future events or the meaning of certain events. Discussing the first viewers theories with your game biased knowledge is nothing like a service: it is rather the best way to be a living "walkthrough".

Feel free to point out FACTS from the anime, but please do not start giving reasoning or clues.
You still can post, but I high suggest any game/manga watchers to refrain doing so. It is much more important regarding Umineko's storytelling compared to Higurashi.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-07-11 at 21:19.
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Old 2009-07-10, 16:07   Link #54
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That is correct. It isn't anything better than giving guidance and the like, which is absolutely unsafe regarding the knowledge involving those who played even only 2 episodes already.

All posts of such nature have been deleted.
Ah, sorry. Will be more careful when posting in this thread from now on.

Is raising questions after each episode around here, as long as it is regarded to that episode story's element?
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Old 2009-07-10, 16:08   Link #55
Klashikari
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Yes, raising question on obvious elements and summarizing all elements (WITHOUT GIVING ANY IMPORTANCE TO ANY!) are fine.
Therefore, the range of discussion for non first viewer is limited, hence why I strongly suggest you all not to post in this thread.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-07-11 at 21:19.
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Old 2009-07-10, 16:14   Link #56
chounokoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet View Post
Not to derail the topic, anyone thought about how"Beatrice" introduce her/himself in the letter that Maria read?

An alchemy counsellor? Gold? Does it actually means transmuted gold?
This is the first time in my whole life I heard of alchemy counsellor =_='

Also it may be just me but the blood drawing look like those transmutation circle you saw in FMA...
Just on that topic, I just hope it's okay to tell that, but I think so, because it isn't clearly connected to game knowledge.
In Japanese it is 当家顧問錬金術師 and it would describe a consultant serving a special household in regards of Alchemy, so yes 'household alchemy counsellor' would be the best words to describe this position.

So of course, the witch who had bestowed the house of Ushiromiya with 10t of gold would have every right to call herself that way.
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Old 2009-07-10, 16:45   Link #57
Mei19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
From what I seen so far, I highly doubt Beatrice exists. There are 18 ppl in the house so if someone outside is wandering around, surely someone must've caught it. Unless Beatrice is truly a witch who can pop out of nowhere behind Maria and kill all those ppl with her supernatural power. But then that's not really a mystery element anymore which I think is what the series is going for.
How are you going to explain those evil butterflies that sprinkle pixie dusts and glow like fireflies then? That throws all the notions of human foul play out the window. Hmm, unless those flying glow worms are a native creatures of Rokkenjima and Rokkenjima alone and Kinzo has been keeping them as pets. But that in itself is also unnatural. That'll be hella weird. I think there's a supernatural explanation to all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Poo
There's nothing wrong with the part that tells of the journey that ends, as for the village of gold, it all depends on what this village of gold actually is.

If it is the afterlife, the paradise or a graveyard, it makes sense
I think so! But if the village of gold is really the afterlife. That'd be painstakingly lame. I hate whenever they end horror stories with EVERYBODY DIEEESSSS conclusion. On the next twilights there's a talk about resurrection and end of the witch. They could all wake up at October the 6th and realize they all had the same bad dream. Bleh, my idea seems more out there.

The timeframe of this whole story is between October 4-5th? How do you like that? They already wasted October 4th. We only have less than 24 hours to accomodate all 22-something episodes. Or are they gon' pull another time loop, fast forward, rewind approach to things.
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Old 2009-07-10, 17:44   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19
How are you going to explain those evil butterflies that sprinkle pixie dusts and glow like fireflies then?
Wow, I kept thinking about those butterflies for 10 minutes, but then I gave up, because everything I came up with didn't make sense. Haha. I thought maybe someone was using a flashlight with the shape of a butterfly, but then the butterfly wouldn't flap it's wings... I guess it would be possible to use some kind of something that could do it, like a mini projector? Haha, but that's impossible. I'm thinking maybe it could also be imagined by people, because of that letter's mention of Beatrice, being a gold witch or something. But the butterfly showed up when Shannon was in the hallway... And I don't think she was affected by the letter. >.<

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19
On the next twilights there's a talk about resurrection and end of the witch. They could all wake up at October the 6th and realize they all had the same bad dream.
Ehh. Haha, I know you said that idea is far out there already, but everyone waking up having the same dream would totally ruin my thoughts on Umineko. I'm thinking maybe the person who finds the key mentioned in the epitaph will try to carry out all the things written as directions on it... Then once they complete it, they will realize that they have become the witch, and the remaining 5 people will be eliminated due to them getting in the way. And this is all just Kinzo's plot to destroy all the people who want his moneys? Wow, that's not right. .-.
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Old 2009-07-10, 18:02   Link #59
plzd0ntkeelme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But assuming this is a rather large island for only a small part of one family to live on it, wouldn't it be possible for a 19th person to be hiding somewhere?
There has to be a reason why there is the legend of the witch of the forest around Rokkenjima, hasn't it?!
Remember that in that part, it's not just nobody in the house admits they give the umbrella, but nobody seen Beatrice giving the umbrella to Maria. In order for this to come true, Beatrice must've been stalking everything that's going on in the house. Knowing the position of Maria and everybody in the house so that when she appears to Maria, nobody would see this. The chances of this is very small unless Beatrice is some kind of goddess of the island who constantly watch everybody's movement. Most likely the giver of the umbrella is someone among the 18 who knows the house and the inhabitants well, able to predict where everybody is, dress as Beatrice when nobody is around to deceive Maria, then change back to her normal look deceiving the rest of the house.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-07-10 at 18:21. Reason: spoiler removed
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Old 2009-07-10, 19:24   Link #60
Paranoia833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
How are you going to explain those evil butterflies that sprinkle pixie dusts and glow like fireflies then? That throws all the notions of human foul play out the window. Hmm, unless those flying glow worms are a native creatures of Rokkenjima and Rokkenjima alone and Kinzo has been keeping them as pets. But that in itself is also unnatural. That'll be hella weird. I think there's a supernatural explanation to all of this.
My guess? Poetic liscence. They're actually just regular butteflies/moths. Or possibly some rare breed unique to the island.

Alternatively, consider this. We don't technically need to disprove the witch or the supernatural exists, you can't prove a negative after all.

All the more logically inclined among us have to do is offer a complete explanation which is equally viable and makes no assumptions about the existence of unquantifiable supernatural beings and is consistent with the facts we know and Occam's means we're winning.
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