AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-12-07, 04:54   Link #941
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I think Battler's goal is not to disprove magic's existence, but more about disproving witches murdering his family.

As long as magic has nothing to do with the incident, magic can exist somewhere.

And red texts were magic? It should be said that they were observation from the meta-world. Is the meta-world a magical existence? It depends on how you define magic is. You can say it is the multi-universe and people in the meta-world look at us like we looking at a 2-dimensional world.

To deny the existence of metaworld is unscientific as we basically have no tools to investigate at all. In probability, the existence of a metaworld is 50%.

(It starts sliding into discussion of metaphysics...)
I don't know much about science but I've always thought that anything that can't be investigated and wasn't falsifiable was already unscientific by definition.
__________________
Haak is offline  
Old 2009-12-07, 05:04   Link #942
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't know much about science but I've always thought that anything that can't be investigated and wasn't falsifiable was already unscientific by definition.
The only scientific way of treating those which cannot be explored in anyway or infalsifiable is to say "I don't know". Not that you cannot think on them, but you have to realize that what you think is just one possibility among trillions of others. And you have no reason to assert anyone of them since you lack any kind of evidence.

So finally, it is "I don't know", I can only say that the existence of a metaphysical world is as probable as its non-existence.

BTW, to solve this game, or in dealing with any kind of real life problem, one can never be that scientific or rational. Or one cannot function at all, since there are so many possibilities that one must choose some of them to be the answer, based on some guts or intuition or emotion. (In short, to take a leap of faith)

But of course, if evidence of contradiction arises, then I should adjust my choosing of the hypothesis.

My opinion on all these things...
ijriims is offline  
Old 2009-12-07, 05:05   Link #943
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
This is actually kind of related to what Battler says at the end of the first Game... just because you can't explain something, that doesn't mean that it's magic.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2009-12-07, 05:06   Link #944
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't know much about science but I've always thought that anything that can't be investigated and wasn't falsifiable was already unscientific by definition.
that's correct, but not all that is unscientific directly falls under the magic category.

Some might argue that magic is a subcategory of the supernatural. Since ghosts, angels, bigfoots, vampires, aren't usually considered magical beings.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-12-11, 19:19   Link #945
ChibiBear
Aim's Stalker ^_~
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to ChibiBear
Hmm... I kinda have a theory, feel free to shoot it down I mainly got this idea from Jan-Poo's post about George and a few others that have been posted but I can't seem to find... Well here goes ^^ (Sorry if something similar has already been posted btw)

I know that Umineko and Higurashi aren't the same, but I think it'd make sense if there's more than one killer, and each arc, one (or more) of the killers change, like in Higurashi how there's the central culprit, and there the person with Hinamizawa syndrome.

I think that there's a 'Beatrice', the central culprit who does all the planning etc, and then there's the person with the 'Syndrome' who is randomly (?) selected, and maybe someone that 'Beatrice' managed to convince to help her. Also, the person with the 'syndrome' probably is one of the people who survives until the end of each arc.

Jan-Poo's post about george got me thinking, if George did kill Shannon in Ep1, maybe 'Beatrice' saw, and made a deal with him, 'You help me, and I won't tell anyone', or something like that. That would explain why the murders are different every time right? Also, the 6th, 7th and 8th twilights of Ep2 seem pretty much impossible, but would be possible if one of the 'dead' killed them.

My theory is that 'Beatrice' is Kanon. Each time, his death was somewhat unusual. In Ep1, he was the only one who was still alive (For more than a few seconds) after being discovered. If Nanjo was in on it, he could easily have convinced Jessica to lie about his death, and then do the 6th-8th twilights. In Ep2, his body disappeared and he was seen killing people afterwards. In Ep3, he came back as a ghost. Weird...

I'll post the rest of my theory when I figure it out
__________________
Meow meow nano desu~ Nipah~
ChibiBear is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 03:22   Link #946
Misternomer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Technically in this case it would be Genji lying, not Rosa. It is Genji that tells everyone that the Beatrice that gave Kinzo the gold died around the time the family moved to Rokkenjima (1952-1956). Incidentally Rosa's birth is around that time (1952-1955).




In 1967? Kinzo was about 60 years old, so yeah he would be in his 40s around the time the Beatrice of 1967 was born, and in his 50s around the time Rosa was born.

To make things clear there are 3 Beatrice whose existence has been reported:

1) The Beatrice who lent the gold to Kinzo, supposedly the one he fell in love with. According to Genji she died around the time the family moved to Rokkenjima (1952-1956). Kinzo says that he met her after the war (1945+)

2) The Beatrice who was secluded in the Kuwadorian and that met Rosa in 1967. The fact that she existed and died was confirmed in red, supposedly that death happened in 1967 (according to Rosa's story).

3) The Beatrice that that exists in the Rokkenjima of 1986 and that has been Maria's teacher in the few years before that. She could be one of the 18 or who knows what, but her existence at this point is pretty much confirmed.

I think the third Beatrice is actually Rosa. And here are two (three?) possible theories why:

1) After having apparently "killed" the second Beatrice, Rosa as a kid was traumatised and developed multiple personality disorder. Beatrice was probably her first split personality. And the bad witch Maria often talks about - the Rosa who often went out and be all slutty with men, who often abused Maria - might have been another split personality that developed sometime after.

This makes a lot of sense given that for most of Maria's life she has been learning "magic" from Beatrice - who was in fact really her mother. This would explain why the little girl is so fascinated with magic.

Conversely, if Beatrice were somebody else, then contact time between Maria and Beatrice would have been extremely limited. To be more specific, limited to the short periods of time, during the annual family conference, when Maria was unsupervised. Which would make little sense since Maria has an entire scrapbook filled with complicated magic circles that I presume take time to etch.

Also:

In every game, on the late afternoon of the first day Maria would always be stranded in the rose garden amidst the rain, and three out of four games the 1986 Beatrice would come and give Maria an umbrella (if I recall correctly in one of the games Kinzo gave her the umbrella instead). During this time, Rosa would always be asleep - so it's highly probable that while Rosa thought she was sleeping, the Beatrice split personality actually took over and went to give Maria the umbrella.

And the best part: Beatrice-Rosa wouldn't even need to change clothes or appearances or anything - Maria recognised that it was "Beatrice" based on Beatrice-Rosa's manner of speech.

2) Rosa purposely pretended to be Beatrice. Prior to the events of of 1986, she had already discovered the location of the hidden gold, and had been sneaking out the gold one ingot at a time.

She did not announce her discovery of the gold because she did not want to become the head of the household and be forced to live on Rokkenjima.

Simultaneously, in 1986 prior to the family conference, she learnt of her siblings' deep financial debts (Rosa's company was also in debt, but she probably had the means to pay it off thanks to the gold ingots she had been sneaking out). She wanted to share the hidden gold with her siblings, but again, she did not want to be forced into becoming the head.

So Rosa decided that during the 1986 family conference she would put up a bluff about how people will be killed unless someone else solves the epithet.

Hmmm... well, it was probably not a complete bluff. She needed her siblings to take the epithet seriously, so she probably planned on slaughtering between six to eight people for the first two twilights: Kinzo (whom she suspected was already dead in the first place), Genji, Shanon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa (first six), Nanjo, and Kyrie (these last two for the second twilight).

Why those eight - the servants and Kyrie? My guess is that those eight are the people Rosa did not want to inherit the gold and the headship of the family.

To compensate the families of those she planned to sacrifice, Rosa created bank accounts and deposited large amounts of cash compensation, and sent the deposit key to the families of the respective sacrifices prior to the family conference. In the form of those ghostly letters with fake addresses.

Anyway, if my conjectures up to this point were correct, then probably the third game was closest to Rosa's ideal of how things should have went. The first twilight's sacrifices comprised solely of the servants, and before even the second twilight Eva had already solved the epithet.

Regardless, at some point during the first three games, things started to deviate from Rosa's plans as some of the other family members used the epithet as a scapegoat for committing murders.

3) Some combination of the above two.

*****************

If Rosa were Beatrice, then here's my conjecture as to what happened for the beginning parts of the first three games.

*****************

Game 1:
First Twilight
-Rosa first killed Gohda, who was guarding the mansion.
-In the first game, Shanon had arrived to her night duty at the mansion late for some reason (I can't remember). Anyway, Rosa killed Shanon.
-George, who probably forgot to tell Shanon something, went to the mansion and saw Rosa murdering Shanon. There was a struggle, some shouting, and George killed Rosa.
-The noise from the aforementioned struggle alerted Krauss, Rudolf, and Kyrie who were still upstairs discussing the inheritance. They rushed to the source of the noise and shouting, and saw George covered in blood from murdering Rosa.
-George knows kung fu.
-Krass, Rudolf, and Kyrie dies.
-George carries all their corpses to... wherever they were found.
-As to why the corpses' faces were all disfigured: Rosa probably did the first two (Gohda and Shanon). Then George thought that, if he didn't disfigure the rest of their faces, someone might think that George killed the remaining four people because he thought they killed Shanon.

Second Twilight
-George goes to his parents' bedroom and tells them the truth.
-They were shocked and wanted George to turn himself in.
-George didn't, and killed them both.

The rest I'm not sure, because I can't remember if George had an alibi for the rest of the murders. Or maybe someone else committed the murders.

*****************

Game 2:
First Twilight
-Someone killed all the adults except for Rosa.
-Rosa freaked out because her plan was completely foiled, since all the adults she wanted to solve the epithet and inherit the headship were dead. She started fearing for her life.

I don't really have a good idea what happened here, except I don't think that the culprit is Rosa.

*****************

Game 3:
First Twilight
-Rosa killed five servants, and discovers Kinzo's already dead body.

-Then Eva solves the epithet.

Second Twilight
-Out of greed, Eva kills Rosa, the only other person who knew where the hidden gold was.
-And Maria.

And the rest of the murders were completed mostly as what Battler suggested.
Misternomer is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 04:22   Link #947
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misternomer View Post
She wanted to share the hidden gold with her siblings
No.

If you'll notice, Rosa is about the most selfish person on that island (and that's saying something.)
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:08   Link #948
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Wasn't Rosa with the other parents for for most of the night in the first arc?
Arbane the Terrible is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:27   Link #949
Arbane the Terrible
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
3) The Beatrice that that exists in the Rokkenjima of 1986 and that has been Maria's teacher in the few years before that. She could be one of the 18 or who knows what, but her existence at this point is pretty much confirmed.
On RPG.net, one of the commenters there made a pretty good argument that the third Beatrice could easily be Shannon or Jessica. Shannon's an orphan from an orphanage run by Kinzo, Jessica was born after her parents had been trying to have a child for a LONG time. How convenient.

If Jessica and Kanon are working together, and they could get Nanjo to lie about him dying in the first arc (either just to 'protect' Kanon or because Nanjo's in on their conspiracy), then we know who shot Natsuhi.

In it's Shannon who's "Beatrice", then the plan not being derailed by her (apparent) death early on in the first arc is a bit puzzling, but Kanon seemed really close to her. Maybe he was carrying on in her name? (And out of his own resentment for the Ushiromiyas.)

In the second arc, where both Jessica and Shannon like 'til very near the end, and Kanon's supposedly murdering people after he's 'dead', he looks REALLY suspicious.

In the third arc, the Shannon theory fails pretty badly, as both Kanon and Shannon are dead in the first twilight.
Arbane the Terrible is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:31   Link #950
Misternomer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No.

If you'll notice, Rosa is about the most selfish person on that island (and that's saying something.)
I didn't notice. I think it would be nice if you could back up your claim with some evidence.

If she were that selfish, why did she not just shoot Eva the moment she found her in the room with all the gold ingots?

Besides, suppose my initial theory that she wanted to share the gold with her siblings is wrong. It is not at all unthinkable that she has grew tired of smuggling out the gold one ingot at a time, and instead desired her fair share of the gold without having to become the head.
Misternomer is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:41   Link #951
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misternomer View Post
I didn't notice. I think it would be nice if you could back up your claim with some evidence.
Her treatment of her daughter...?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:50   Link #952
Workworkwork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misternomer View Post

If she were that selfish, why did she not just shoot Eva the moment she found her in the room with all the gold ingots?.
I guess the anime didn't make this clear enough: Both Rosa and Eva(Or at least Rosa, I'm not sure if Eva slipped out) are known to be out unsupervised.

Suppose Rosa really did shoot her. What do YOU think would happen?

Selfishness does not mean suicidal self-interest.
Workworkwork is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:53   Link #953
Misternomer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Her treatment of her daughter...?
That's pretty weak evidence.

By your logic then Eva would probably be the least selfish of all the cousins. Since she treats her son and husband so well. And yet, as we all know, she ends up being (probably) the culprit of Game 3 just because she wanted the gold all to herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
I guess the anime didn't make this clear enough: Both Rosa and Eva(Or at least Rosa, I'm not sure if Eva slipped out) are known to be out unsupervised.

Suppose Rosa really did shoot her. What do YOU think would happen?

Selfishness does not mean suicidal self-interest.
In the first place, I'm sure when Rosa went out unsupervised, she used some sort of excuse like "I need to go potty" or some shit like that.

Then she could have went to the gold room, saw Eva, shot her, and left her corpse in there WHICH WOULD NOT BE DISCOVERED because nobody else knew the location of the gold.

When she went back and Eva was not back yet, everybody would just assume that Rosa did indeed go potty, and Eva by contrast just went out and went missing.

Even if later on somebody else figures out the location of the gold, you can't possibly trace Eva's murder back to Rosa, because it's not known for sure at which point during Eva's disappearance was she murdered.

Sure, Nanjo might have been able to tell Eva's real time of death. So all Rosa had to do was kill Nanjo - which she had planned to do anyway if my wild conjectures about how Rosa remitted money to Nanjo's son through the 0715somethingsomething bank account, was right.
Misternomer is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 05:55   Link #954
Workworkwork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misternomer View Post
That's pretty weak evidence.

By your logic then Eva would probably be the least selfish of all the cousins. Since she treats her son and husband so well. And yet, as we all know, she ends up being (probably) the culprit of Game 3 just because she wanted the gold all to herself.
Ummm... No.

Do you think she would actually kill her husband? There is also no way in hell she would kill her beloved son George, as he would be the inheritor of the Ushiromiya fortune.
Workworkwork is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 06:08   Link #955
Misternomer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Ummm... No.

Do you think she would actually kill her husband? There is also no way in hell she would kill her beloved son George, as he would be the inheritor of the Ushiromiya fortune.
I didn't say she killed her husband and son. Don't put words in my mouth.

All I said were three things.

1) Eva treated her son well.

2) By Kaisos Erranon's logic, the way you treated your child was an indication of how selfish you were, and hence, Eva was probably not a very selfish person.

3) Yet Eva (probably) plotted to kill everyone who stood in her way (everyone except her husband and son, of course) of hording all the gold to herself. At the very least, we know for sure that she killed Battler at the end of Game 3 and that she's a crook.

Besides, now that you mention it... isn't it heavily implied that Eva killed Hideyoshi when he reprimanded Eva for being so greedy? I'm talking about that scene right after Rudolf and Kyrie were killed.
Misternomer is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 06:13   Link #956
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25


Wow.

I meant that Rosa constantly neglects her daughter in order to do things for her own self... that's the definition of selfish. She'd never share money.

And where is your proof that Eva plotted to kill anyone?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 07:16   Link #957
Misternomer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post


Wow.

I meant that Rosa constantly neglects her daughter in order to do things for her own self... that's the definition of selfish. She'd never share money.

And where is your proof that Eva plotted to kill anyone?
Just to be clear, I highlighted the part of your post that I have a problem with. You're stating that as if it's gospel.

But you can't really prove it. "She neglects her daughter because she's selfish" is not the same as "not wanting to share the gold because she's selfish.

The first clause you're absolutely spot on, but you can't use the first clause to substantiate the second. Rosa's relationship with Maria is only one facet of her life. It doesn't necessarily mean that she pays shitty wages to her employees, or that if there's cake she won't share it with her siblings.

It's a completely different kind of selfishness.

Come to think of it, didn't the Visual Novel stated somewhere that Rosa was in debt because she was too nice and let other companies took advantage of hers, or something like that? Someone jog my memory?

**********

I don't have proof that Eva plotted to kill anyone. I'm just bringing up the possibility that if she were Beatrice, then perhaps she wanted someone else in her family to inherit the headship.

And to ensure that the headship doesn't fall into any of the servants' hands, she MIGHT have plotted to kill them - which is why she remitted money to the servants' families?

My whole post was entirely conjecture, and you're welcome to refute any of it - that's why I posted it. I'm trying to figure out what happened too.
Misternomer is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 07:49   Link #958
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 30
The only direct possible evidence we have about her selfishness that actually comes out of her mouth is her conversation with Battler regarding what she would do for her own sake and for her daughters. She was willing enough to antagonize her own family to get what she needed, be it the gold or the safety of her daughter. It's clear enough that she has some very, very serious problems and conflicts regarding the her relationship with Maria, but again all things prior to Rokkenjima held constant, we can believe that what she did at the end of Ep2 she would also do in other episodes if she had to (or at least survived long enough).
MeoTwister5 is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 08:36   Link #959
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
The problem with being greedy is, you can asume that any of the adults is.
They are all in dire need of money because their companies are failing.

- Krauss is stupid enough to buy into anything that's offered to him on a nicely enough decorated plate...and sometimes he's just way to much ahead of his own time.
- Hideyoshi allowed himself to be moved out of his own position, because he was too nice and gullible when it came to business. So he has no real power over his own company anymore.
- Rudolph seems to be pretty untalented if it comes to negotiations and sometimes get's in way over his head if it comes to foreign business deals where he lost quite a sum of money.
- Rosa is just not hitting the nerve of her time with her clothing brand and is, as it seems, to proud to quit it, so she too is heavy in the debts.

So money would be a reason for all of them. Yet there are too many hints at a conspiracy being plotted together by the younger siblings and their spouses.

- In Episode 1 we learned that they planned to corner Krauss with the legend of the gold and their knowledge about him embezzeling money and funds.
- In Episode 2 there was a scene where the siblings talked with Kyrie about the appearance of the young woman claiming to be Beatrice (don't remember if that was in the anime) and how to react to that person regarding the inheritance.
- In Episode 3 Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi band together to go to the mansion. Even though it later looks like they were planning to corner Hideyoshi, I find it more probable that they were plotting against Krauss and wanted to find out about Kinzo's state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misternomer
Besides, now that you mention it... isn't it heavily implied that Eva killed Hideyoshi when he reprimanded Eva for being so greedy? I'm talking about that scene right after Rudolf and Kyrie were killed.
It was shown to us that Eva-Beatrice killed Hideyoshi. If that proves anything to you, then yes. But it is still not proven without doubt that her and Ushiromiya Eva are the same person. For me at least it is highly unlikely...and also goes against some red truths.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And towards the Beatrice of 1986's Rokkenjima to be Rosa...no I just don't see that.

- In Episode 1 she left Maria alone in the garden and went back inside where she probably was in presence of at least some servants until she fell asleep.
In the meantime Maria met with somebody whom she believed to be Beatrice and who she had met for at least a couple of family conferences.
From this person Maria receives one letter.
- In Episode 2 Rosa got worried earlier and went back into the garden, where she actually witnessed Maria meeting with a person claiming to be Beatrice.
They both receive a letter from this person and Rosa is quite shaken up about the fact that 'Beatrice' appeared before her, which triggers a heavy headache.
- In Episode 3 Maria forces Rosa to accompany her to the rosegarden, because Maria was not allowed to leave on her own and HAD to be there as it seemed.
There they meet a person who is at first unknown to Maria and about whom Rosa is unsure if it couldn't be Eva. But then something happens and Maria is sure that person is Beatrice who she met several times.
They are both killed by that person out of some reason.
- In Episode 4 (somehow this part is a bit fuzzy) Maria seems to have not met with Beatrice in the rosegarden and has not received a letter to shake up the family conference. She was asleep at the mansion and was later carried to the guesthouse where the cousins kept an eye on her.

This all somehow points towards the fact that there is someone who is meeting with Maria on the island and this person was involved in Eva finding the gold in Episode 3. This person seems to have either disliked the fact that Rosa knew about that or Rosa found something out about that person by meeting him/her in the rosegarden during Episode 3 that lead said person to kill her...and to keep up the charade of the 'witch's murders' he/she had to kill Maria too, but made it a rather 'soft' death.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2009-12-12, 08:37   Link #960
Kamar
Author Wannabe
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
I know I'm a few pages late on bringing this up, but I just want to remind everyone that even though everyone is shown with brightly colored hair etc, and Jessica in particular shares her's with Beatrice, it is specifically noted by Battler in the novel that the woman in the portrait looks completely different from all of them, on account of being blonde and foreign.

The hair colors are just for artistic purposes; everyone in all likelihood has typical Japanese coloration.
Kamar is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.