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Old 2009-12-19, 15:10   Link #1041
Ronove
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
My theory is that
Spoiler for theory on relationship between Battler and Beatrice:
.
Interesting idea, this can also prove how Battler isn't fit to be Beatrice's opponent. That means Battler has brothers and sisters! Although, Beatrice died at 1963, and it's now 1986, which means he would be 23 years old by now (of course, he's 18 I think).
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Old 2009-12-19, 15:20   Link #1042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Interesting idea, this can also prove how Battler isn't fit to be Beatrice's opponent. That means Battler has brothers and sisters! Although, Beatrice died at 1963, and it's now 1986, which means he would be 23 years old by now (of course, he's 18 I think).
I thought she died in '68.

Edit:
Spoiler:
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Last edited by CrossoverManiac; 2009-12-19 at 15:44.
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Old 2009-12-19, 16:16   Link #1043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
I thought she died in '68.

Edit:
Spoiler:
Well depends on how you interpret and connect certain hints that are presented to you.

We know that up to 1968 groceries and other things were shipped to the secret harbour of Kuwadorian, but in that year, they suddenly ordered those shipments to stop and closed the harbour off altogether.

We also got to know from Rosa, that in her youth in 1967 she met a young woman, claiming to be Beatrice, in the garden of Kuwadorian and led her out of there. They went along the cliffs until Beatrice tripped, fell and supposedly died from the impact.
Meta-Beatrice said that she was freed from the bonds of flesh, but also seems to be unable to take form afain for some time.

Spoiler for VN Episode 2:


The Beatrice in Kuwadorian also told us, that she was a prison for the soul of the witch Beatrice, which would mean that the former owner of Beatrice's spirit died.
Wether we see it metaphorically or magically it implies that the warend-Beatrice is already dead.

The uniform Beatrice at the end of Episode 4 (episode 24) also says, that during Battler's youth and his visits to Rokkenjima, she did not yet exist there.
The earliest we see a glimpse of another Beatrice interacting with people on Rokkenjima is around 1984, when Shannon meets her in front of the portrait in the mansion's hall. This would also coincide with Maria's claim that she already met Beatrice a few times when Rosa asked her about it during the family conference of 1986 (Episode 2) and what we saw about her meeting Beatrice and Vargilia in the garden of Kuwadorian and creating the contract of the Mariage Sorciere and bringing Sakutarou to life.
There should also be at least a year between the creation of the contract and 1986, as there has to be enough time for Ange being there and denying Sakutarou and being expelled from the Mariage Sorciere, Rosa ripping up Sakutarou and Maria turning from good witch to evil witch, so that Beatrice could at least teach her some bad magic in 1985.
This would imply that somewhere between 1980 and 1984 a new Beatrice came into existence who could then come into contact with at least 3 people (Shannon, Kanon and Maria) and at least drive Shannon to destroy the shrine's mirror (supposedly somewhere between 1984 and summer 1985).

But it also means, unless we are missing one, that there was no Beatrice in the time from 1968 till at least 1980.
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Old 2009-12-19, 18:14   Link #1044
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Well depends on how you interpret and connect certain hints that are presented to you.

We know that up to 1968 groceries and other things were shipped to the secret harbour of Kuwadorian, but in that year, they suddenly ordered those shipments to stop and closed the harbour off altogether.

We also got to know from Rosa, that in her youth in 1967 she met a young woman, claiming to be Beatrice, in the garden of Kuwadorian and led her out of there. They went along the cliffs until Beatrice tripped, fell and supposedly died from the impact.
Meta-Beatrice said that she was freed from the bonds of flesh, but also seems to be unable to take form afain for some time.

Spoiler for VN Episode 2:


The Beatrice in Kuwadorian also told us, that she was a prison for the soul of the witch Beatrice, which would mean that the former owner of Beatrice's spirit died.
Wether we see it metaphorically or magically it implies that the warend-Beatrice is already dead.

The uniform Beatrice at the end of Episode 4 (episode 24) also says, that during Battler's youth and his visits to Rokkenjima, she did not yet exist there.
The earliest we see a glimpse of another Beatrice interacting with people on Rokkenjima is around 1984, when Shannon meets her in front of the portrait in the mansion's hall. This would also coincide with Maria's claim that she already met Beatrice a few times when Rosa asked her about it during the family conference of 1986 (Episode 2) and what we saw about her meeting Beatrice and Vargilia in the garden of Kuwadorian and creating the contract of the Mariage Sorciere and bringing Sakutarou to life.
There should also be at least a year between the creation of the contract and 1986, as there has to be enough time for Ange being there and denying Sakutarou and being expelled from the Mariage Sorciere, Rosa ripping up Sakutarou and Maria turning from good witch to evil witch, so that Beatrice could at least teach her some bad magic in 1985.
This would imply that somewhere between 1980 and 1984 a new Beatrice came into existence who could then come into contact with at least 3 people (Shannon, Kanon and Maria) and at least drive Shannon to destroy the shrine's mirror (supposedly somewhere between 1984 and summer 1985).

But it also means, unless we are missing one, that there was no Beatrice in the time from 1968 till at least 1980.
Interesting theory, makes a lot of sense, however, how do we know that The Golden Witch Beatrice is even existing anymore, what if Beatrice is actually a clone of the REAL Beatrice because something happened to The Real Beatrice, just a theory though lol.
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Old 2009-12-19, 18:18   Link #1045
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Originally Posted by spideys95 View Post
Interesting theory, makes a lot of sense, however, how do we know that The Golden Witch Beatrice is even existing anymore, what if Beatrice is actually a clone of the REAL Beatrice because something happened to The Real Beatrice, just a theory though lol.
Because cloning technology didn't exist in 1986?
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Old 2009-12-19, 20:03   Link #1046
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
I thought she died in '68.
According to the boat-captain, 1968 is when Kuwadorian stopped shipping in supplies, so most likely that was when she died.

Quote:
Edit:
Spoiler:
Well, that's what she SAYS, anway...

(Ah, I see I've been Ninja'ed, here.)

I personally tend towards the theory that piece-Beato is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1968. Now, who on the island is female, has blonde hair and blue eyes, is about 18 years old, and whose whereabouts are currently unknown...?
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Old 2009-12-19, 20:52   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible View Post
According to the boat-captain, 1968 is when Kuwadorian stopped shipping in supplies, so most likely that was when she died.
Well it was 1967 when Rosa met her, according to Ronove. Maybe the captain shipped goods only once or twice a year and the rest of the time they lived off supplies.
But who knows, maybe the one year gap is a hint.

Quote:
I personally tend towards the theory that piece-Beato is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1968. Now, who on the island is female, has blonde hair and blue eyes, is about 18 years old, and whose whereabouts are currently unknown...?
Well yes, Jessica is a possible suspect for the role of uniform-Beatrice.
She was close to Kanon in the corridor when Beatrice spoke to him...but I still see no real reason for her to 'kill herself'. We did not get an exact 'Jessica is dead' sentence in red right after the 2nd twilight (and only once did Beato mention Jessica's CORPSE...well the question is, can there be a corpse of somebody without that person being dead?), so it is within the boundaries of probability that maybe Jessica managed to go around being detected...

Still I don't see the reason why the servants would suddenly start seeing her in different light...although it would explain Kanon's absolute unwillingness to confess his love for Jessica.

But I don't know, somehow I don't like the idea of Jessica being uniform-Beatrice.
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Old 2009-12-19, 22:00   Link #1048
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According to the boat-captain, 1968 is when Kuwadorian stopped shipping in supplies, so most likely that was when she died.
To be precise, the Captain said that it was about 30 years before and around 1968.

Since it is something that happened more than 30 years before it is perfectly understandable that he missed the right time by one year.

Rosa did the same thing when in 1986 said that she met Beatrice about 20 years before. And in this case we have a red certainty that such event actually happened in 1967.

Imho there's no need to think that Beatrice died in 1968 instead of 1967
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Old 2009-12-19, 22:16   Link #1049
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We have in red only that Beatrice existed as a human in 1967. We do not have in red anything related to when Rosa met her.
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Old 2009-12-19, 23:01   Link #1050
Arbane the Terrible
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
We have in red only that Beatrice existed as a human in 1967. We do not have in red anything related to when Rosa met her.
Yep. According to the anime, Ronove said "In the year 1967, in the hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice existed as a human." As usual, what's NOT said is at least as important as what is.
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Old 2009-12-20, 00:31   Link #1051
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Because cloning technology didn't exist in 1986?
I meant clone by Beatrice cloning herself with magic because something happened due to (Real?) Battler 6 years ago as in that *Sin* Beatrice spoke of.
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Old 2009-12-20, 06:28   Link #1052
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
We have in red only that Beatrice existed as a human in 1967. We do not have in red anything related to when Rosa met her.
Well you'd have to think that red texts were used in a very decontextualized manner:

-Rosa and Beatrice actually had a conversation like that in this place
-Here is the world of 1967


I can't find any reason to think Beatrice was trying to trick Battler into believing it happened in 1967 instead of 1968.
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Old 2009-12-20, 08:08   Link #1053
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-Rosa and Beatrice actually had a conversation like that in this place
That red refers to Kinzo and Beatrice, I believe, not Rosa and Beatrice. In fact, I doubt that Rosa ever actually met Beatrice to begin with.
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Old 2009-12-20, 08:56   Link #1054
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Isn't Kumasawa the original Beatrice?

Since they directly linked her to Virgillia, and Lia is the "previous Beatrice".

She's a bit weird, she's been there as long as Genji and doesn't have a one-winged Eagle.

She might have been Kinzo's original mistress and the Beato Rosa saw was her hidden child with Kinzo? Something like that.
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Old 2009-12-20, 09:09   Link #1055
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But we know that the original Beatrice was the one that, in the past, gave Kinzo all the gold (unless that is fake information and Kinzo got the gold in a different way). However, if the information is true, then how would Kumasawa have so much gold, and why would she give it to Kinzo?
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Old 2009-12-20, 09:22   Link #1056
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That red refers to Kinzo and Beatrice, I believe, not Rosa and Beatrice. In fact, I doubt that Rosa ever actually met Beatrice to begin with.
You are right the real text says

those two actually had a conversation like that in this place

and it was referring to Kinzo and Beatrice. I looked to an outdated list of red texts...
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Old 2009-12-20, 10:39   Link #1057
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Originally Posted by D0rYn View Post
But we know that the original Beatrice was the one that, in the past, gave Kinzo all the gold (unless that is fake information and Kinzo got the gold in a different way). However, if the information is true, then how would Kumasawa have so much gold, and why would she give it to Kinzo?
She didn't have the gold, but helped Kinzo obtain it.
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Old 2009-12-20, 13:10   Link #1058
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Allow me to say this:

Beatrice gave birth to Battler before or around her death. Hence, 1967~1968, it's possible that Battler was Beatrice's son.

He WOULD be around the age of 18 (as far as we know). However, what happened to the baby afterwards is still awkward. I suppose if a mistress is pregnant, Kinzo might have found him, and Rudolf took custody or something. This can explain how Battler isn't of Asumu's son, etc. etc.
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Old 2009-12-20, 13:18   Link #1059
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That story works better for Jess though. Natsuhi didn't get pregnant for 12 years.
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Old 2009-12-20, 14:37   Link #1060
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Didn't everyone notice how Battler was taller than average? Maybe that's because he's actually older than 18.
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