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Old 2009-12-20, 14:45   Link #1061
Aebliss
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Or he has European in his bloodline. The average is determined by the people around you, and the people around Battler are Japanese. It may seem like a bit of a stereotype, but most Japanese really are shorter than Europeans.
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Old 2009-12-20, 15:10   Link #1062
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However exceptions exist everywhere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27VVDKC6FRc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasutaka_Okayama
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Old 2009-12-20, 18:15   Link #1063
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Allow me to say this:

Beatrice gave birth to Battler before or around her death. Hence, 1967~1968, it's possible that Battler was Beatrice's son.

He WOULD be around the age of 18 (as far as we know). However, what happened to the baby afterwards is still awkward. I suppose if a mistress is pregnant, Kinzo might have found him, and Rudolf took custody or something. This can explain how Battler isn't of Asumu's son, etc. etc.
Isn't that the same thing as saying Beatrice created Battler. It may not be exactly what I said, but it goes along the lines.
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Old 2009-12-20, 18:21   Link #1064
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Well then, that might be how Kinzo "created" the Beatrice of 1967
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Old 2009-12-20, 18:35   Link #1065
ErenselTheJester
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Battler did make up some theory that Kinzo fathered a child and though she was Beatrice's reincarnation.
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Old 2009-12-20, 18:40   Link #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
By "the one we know" you mean piece Battler? That requires some magical thinking to believe he was "created". There is no way to create human beings or replica of them with the technology available in 1986.
I'm not picking sides, but if you want to go with logic, check and define "Devil's Proof."

Dangit, I double posted.
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Old 2009-12-20, 19:39   Link #1067
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define "Devil's Proof."
"A logical fallacy" is the only way to define it in our real world, but in a fictional story it works.

In other words it would be preposterous to take in consideration the possibility of sci-fi technologies in the real world of 1986, but in a fictional story that could happen.

The only question then if Umineko is such a story that would include that or not, but as many people pointed out in many occasions, sci-fi technology is the same as magic. In other words all the mysteries of Umineko could be explained easily and without much efforts simply postulating a ridiculous level of technology that could have been used. For example I remember someone imagining a space warp device to explain Gaap's powers.
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Old 2009-12-21, 09:04   Link #1068
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Lol... sorry guys, I didn't know I put a spoiler up, must've slipped mah mind lol :P
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Last edited by spideys95; 2009-12-21 at 09:05. Reason: Mispelled spoiler
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Old 2009-12-21, 14:31   Link #1069
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
"A logical fallacy" is the only way to define it in our real world, but in a fictional story it works.

In other words it would be preposterous to take in consideration the possibility of sci-fi technologies in the real world of 1986, but in a fictional story that could happen.

The only question then if Umineko is such a story that would include that or not, but as many people pointed out in many occasions, sci-fi technology is the same as magic. In other words all the mysteries of Umineko could be explained easily and without much efforts simply postulating a ridiculous level of technology that could have been used. For example I remember someone imagining a space warp device to explain Gaap's powers.
"A logical fallacy"? That's... negative and way too broad. How about this: A Devil's Proof is something that can be said and described, but can't be proven to exist. That's a definition that fits even in our real world as religion can be put into it. Now for my sanity's sake, seeing as how you guys are so bent on the fact that Battler has to be connected to Ushiromiyas in some way or another, I'll make this theory: Battler is the son of Beatrice's physical incarnate and Kinzo. Kinzo, not wanting Battler for some reason or another, gave up Battler and put him under the care of Rudolf and Asumu.
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Old 2009-12-21, 15:04   Link #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
"A logical fallacy"? That's... negative and way too broad. How about this: A Devil's Proof is something that can be said and described, but can't be proven to exist. That's a definition that fits even in our real world as religion can be put into it. Now for my sanity's sake, seeing as how you guys are so bent on the fact that Battler has to be connected to Ushiromiyas in some way or another, I'll make this theory: Battler is the son of Beatrice's physical incarnate and Kinzo. Kinzo, not wanting Battler for some reason or another, gave up Battler and put him under the care of Rudolf and Asumu.
Trying to be extremely careful, but as religion is not built completely on rational grounds, your analogy doesn't work, as we here are attempting to use reason to deduce who has done the murders. Reason dictates that that Kinzo does not have a cloning machine in 1986, just as it dictates that Kinzo did not use magic to actually summon Beatrice and the Siestas and blah blah. I'm after what is the reasonable and probable solution, not what is the fantastic and ridiculous one.

If Battler is not the product of Rudolf and Kyrie, than what you have dictated right now is logical and makes far more sense than "Kinzo cloned Battler" junk. That said, how would Battler be the son of those two change anything? I'll kind of admit, I'm not very interested in deducing where Battler is from - as far as I'm concerned, he's the son of Rudolf and Kyrie, and Beatrice was just messing with him for no other reason than to get out of her own game when she realized Battler didn't know the sin.
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Old 2009-12-21, 17:07   Link #1071
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A couple of questions.

1) Is Rokkenjima known to be volcanically active or to otherwise possess natural hazards? Such a thing might be a mundane explanation for its reputation as being the home of evil spirits. If some kind of gas is escaping and causing hallucinations, it could explain a lot.
Spoiler:


2) If the mystery is ever conclusively proven to be a mundane affair ... what will happen to the magical phenomena most of us have enjoyed watching? Will they dissolve, as the young people did at the end of anime episode 5? Will the two different states of Schrödinger's cat just continue on different timelines?
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Old 2009-12-21, 17:42   Link #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
"A logical fallacy"? That's... negative and way too broad. How about this: A Devil's Proof is something that can be said and described, but can't be proven to exist. That's a definition that fits even in our real world as religion can be put into it. Now for my sanity's sake, seeing as how you guys are so bent on the fact that Battler has to be connected to Ushiromiyas in some way or another, I'll make this theory: Battler is the son of Beatrice's physical incarnate and Kinzo. Kinzo, not wanting Battler for some reason or another, gave up Battler and put him under the care of Rudolf and Asumu.
Yeah, how does this change anything? Why are you so relunctant to say that he's Kyri and Rudolf's son. There's more evidence supporting that than what you have proposed.
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Old 2009-12-21, 17:49   Link #1073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
2) If the mystery is ever conclusively proven to be a mundane affair ... what will happen to the magical phenomena most of us have enjoyed watching? Will they dissolve, as the young people did at the end of anime episode 5? Will the two different states of Schrödinger's cat just continue on different timelines?
Well, say that if the murders are proven to not be done through magic... that doesn't mean that magic doesn't exist, right?

Battler's operating under a misconception here. Denying that magic is involved in his family's death =/= denying magic itself.
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Old 2009-12-22, 01:10   Link #1074
ErenselTheJester
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Magic is what a person perceives it to be. Once that person shuns that magic, magic does not exist in that person's world. So, for Battler, Denying magic is erasing it from his world.

Titanguy, what is your evidence? I would really like to see what compelled not just you, but a number of people on how that theory makes more sense than my own? (Note: I don't care about my theory, I'm just stuck on Battler not existing and that's it.)

Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2009-12-22 at 01:24.
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Old 2009-12-22, 03:48   Link #1075
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
"A logical fallacy"? That's... negative and way too broad. How about this: A Devil's Proof is something that can be said and described, but can't be proven to exist. That's a definition that fits even in our real world as religion can be put into it. Now for my sanity's sake, seeing as how you guys are so bent on the fact that Battler has to be connected to Ushiromiyas in some way or another, I'll make this theory: Battler is the son of Beatrice's physical incarnate and Kinzo. Kinzo, not wanting Battler for some reason or another, gave up Battler and put him under the care of Rudolf and Asumu.
Atheists agree with that bold part and still consider the devil proof a logical fallacy. "The burden of the proof lies on the one who makes a claim", "you cannot prove a negative", those are frequently mentions of the basic logic of the scientific thinking.

In addition several examples like the Russel's teapot, the invisible pink unicorn and flying spaghetti monster are all meant to explain how illogic is to assume something exist only because you can't prove it doesn't. If people really believed it is logic then they should believe in the three aforementioned theories, but no one really does.

Anyway in truth most religious people believe that proof of God existence are there, and it would be a great understatement to say the reason they believe is because it can't be proven otherwise.
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Old 2009-12-22, 05:24   Link #1076
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double post but well this is different thing.

I have decided to make a series of screenshots on the Rokkenjima maps and buildings to get a better idea of how spatially dislocated are the various elements according to Deen.

Mansion

I haven't found many pics of it, and not a single one from above but here's the front:

Spoiler for size:


There seem to be a circular flower bed with a fountain in the middle just in front of the entrance and that is consistent with every other shots I've seen.

However the way Deen depicts the Mansion is questionable. There is supposed to be an internal courtyard, and Kinzo's study is supposed to face that. This Mansion doesn't seem big enough. Also the third floor here looks like it's actually a loft

The Mansion is based on the KYUU-MAEDA KOUSHAKU TEI ( 旧前田侯爵低 )


The Guesthouse (Toraian)

Spoiler for size:


The Guesthouse is directly in front of the rose garden and the arbor.

The guesthouse is based on the KYUU-FURUKAWA TEIEN ( 旧古河庭園 )

The Chapel

Spoiler for size:


The chapel here is very small, there doesn't seem to be anything beside the main hall. In the novel it looks a lot bigger. We also see two lion statues here which are confirmed to exist in the novel.


The secret Mansion (Kuwadorian)

Spoiler for size:


Again this looks like a very little house, but it seems like there is a huge garden around it. BTW this is the same house seen in little Beatrice's flashback.
This one should be pretty easy to spot from above. One would wonder how the siblings never knew of its existence.


And now the Rokkenjima maps

Spoiler for size:



As you can see the position of the Mansion in relation of the garden is very odd. You are supposed to be able to see the arbor from the second floor of the Mansion (though from very far), but here it doesn't seem that likely.
The chapel however is behind the Mansion as it is supposed to be.

The second map is the one that Ange is using in 1998. The northern yellowish spot is probably where the Kuwadorian's port is located. It is concealed by the peak of a mountain in the previous map.

The southern spot is clearly the main port

Spoiler for size:


However it looks like in 1998 it doesn't exist anymore and this is where the Captain brings Ange to:

Spoiler for size:


That's clearly another place. It is probably the small gulf on the right connected to the only other visible path.

One very interesting thing that Ssol noticed. If that is a recent map and if it is an elevation map with different colors corresponding to different elevation, then it appears that the whole area comprising the Mansion, the guesthouse the garden and the chapel is at the level of the beach.
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Old 2009-12-22, 05:27   Link #1077
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Nice work Jan-Poo. I wish this would be stickied.
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Old 2009-12-22, 12:42   Link #1078
Arbane the Terrible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aebliss View Post
A couple of questions.

1) Is Rokkenjima known to be volcanically active or to otherwise possess natural hazards? Such a thing might be a mundane explanation for its reputation as being the home of evil spirits. If some kind of gas is escaping and causing hallucinations, it could explain a lot.
Spoiler:
A while back, I found this while looking up the Izu Islands (where Rokkenjima is supposed to be) on Wikipedia:
Torishima, the largest of the uninhabited islands, had a population of 150 until 1902, when all were killed by a volcanic eruption. Since then, the island has been uninhabited.

A little more support for the theory that whatever's going on, there's a natural disaster that kills anyone left alive after midnight of the second day.

But as for hallucinations, I seem to remember hearing the author has promised that whatever's going on isn't "Rokkenjima Syndrome", and I'd think hallucinogenic gas would qualify.

Quote:
2) If the mystery is ever conclusively proven to be a mundane affair ... what will happen to the magical phenomena most of us have enjoyed watching? Will they dissolve, as the young people did at the end of anime episode 5? Will the two different states of Schrödinger's cat just continue on different timelines?
No idea. One theory I heard that I like is that to get the Good Ending, meta-Battler's going to have to accept that witches "exist", but also prove they aren't responsible for any of the deaths. (If not, then this story wins the award for "most elaborate red herring ever".)
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Old 2009-12-25, 16:29   Link #1079
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are getting on everyone nerves

taking that as truth is your choice, but please acknowledge and think about it
whahaha nice one xD
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Old 2009-12-25, 18:40   Link #1080
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crazy theory time

what if, instead of all this Beato create Battler, what about the other way around?

What if Battler committed the murders, and because he couldn't accept it, he created Beatrice, the witch of the epitaph, in order to deny that he killed everyone. Battler is Beatrice, therefore

Spoiler for umineko ep 26:


He could use this technique, saying that it was impossible for him to commit the murders, so that he wouldn't have to face his sin.
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