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Old 2009-12-25, 22:05   Link #1081
Tjfarmer
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Not sure if anime kept it, but Beatrice specifically said;

"I am not you"

During her final riddle about Battler being the only one on the island.
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Old 2009-12-25, 22:22   Link #1082
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ah... I don't think the anime kept that in....
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Old 2009-12-26, 01:09   Link #1083
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the anime did not keep it, but beatrice said that in red in the novel.
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Old 2009-12-26, 01:11   Link #1084
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But Beatrice is still not Battler. She may be a fictional creation of his in his own mind, but that doesn't equate the two. I was not my imaginary friend when I was little.
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Old 2009-12-26, 02:18   Link #1085
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"Beatrice"'s real identity could be the real human culprit of Rokkenjima..... and realising her identity (and her motives) will leads Battler to finish himself (and in several world, others) off.....
....Obviously, there's no cute little sister hugging him from behind and telling him to return this time....

Then the whole Umineko could simply be about Battler and his inner conflict to find and prevent the tragedy before it flick his own "L5" switch (leading him to no-returning path). Of course, we also have the yuri loli pair to mess things around.

I also have a feeling that the culprits for each sacrifice in each world would be just like the case of Himazawa murdering series (rather than traditional cases).
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Old 2009-12-26, 02:20   Link #1086
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Again do not account a Higurashi solution into Umineko.

Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:


However I don't doubt there being one set culprit, aka the mastermind.
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Last edited by Marion; 2009-12-26 at 02:32.
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Old 2009-12-26, 21:02   Link #1087
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I'm new here, but I just finished the Anime. The last ep was pretty lame, so I hope all the important truths were made known, though I think you can twist the red truth around.

Spoiler for Deaths EP1-4:


tl;dr:
I try to discover the MO of the culprit(s) in the games, but not necessarily think about WHODUNIT.
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Old 2009-12-26, 22:55   Link #1088
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Since Kinzo's been dead the entire time, doesn't that mean that all the times that Nanjo plays chess with him, he doesn't have an alibi?? not to mention that Nanjo and Kinzo are very close, so maybe Knizo taught him a thing or two about 'magic'?
So: In the first game, Nanjo could have handed the letter to Maria.
Also, before the 2nd twilight, around 7pm-ish, Nanjo and Genji are playing chess, and then Genji leaves to tell Natsuhi that dinner is ready.
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and leaves.

And for 6th-8th twilights:
Nanjo lets the culprit into the room, the culprit (and Nanjo(?)) kill Kumasawa and Genji, the culprit/killer then kills Nanjo, smashes their faces, instructs Maria and goes back into hiding.
OR
Nanjo lets the culprit into the room, the culprit and Nanjo kill Kumasawa and Genji, puts a fake corpse in Nanjo's place, smashes their faces, instructs Maria, then both go into hiding.

Is there any red truth/anything that counters this? I've been thinking of Nanjo as an accomplice for a while now, and it seems to make sense...
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Last edited by ChibiBear; 2009-12-26 at 23:09.
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:03   Link #1089
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Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
Also, before the 2nd twilight, around 7pm-ish, Nanjo and Genji are playing chess, and then Genji leaves to tell Natsuhi that dinner is ready.
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and leaves.
How did he get out of Eva's room while leaving the chain fastened?
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:18   Link #1090
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Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.

BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:23   Link #1091
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Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.

BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. This is a Red Truth left out of the final episode. That's why I say they aren't murderers, but accomplices.
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:30   Link #1092
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I also think that Nanjo is an/the accomplice but I always thought that he helped kill people too... Ah well. They need to stop leaving out red truths =.=

Edit: I just looked it up, it said that the statement Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. was referring to Kanon's death in EP1? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:41   Link #1093
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Well, it only applies to EP 1, but I am trying to establish a common MO across all games... I think it will make it easier to figure out the WHY of it all.

- Its not for money.
- Its not for the headship.
- Its not just to kill innocent people for no reason.

Spoiler for Possible Culprits etc:
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:51   Link #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
Hmm... good question... How about this then:
After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and hides in the room again. After the room is sealed off again, he leaves and nobody ever checks the room again.
I just checked the manga--Dr. Nanjo shows up at Eva's room at the same time Natsuhi does. If they're all working together (my current theory), that wouldn't present a problem, mind you. If fact, it could simplify things considerably: If all the servants are working together, whichever of the servants committed the murder could've cut the chain _then_, and only pretended to need to cut it later. The same goes for the "mysteriously appearing" magic circle on the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
BTW that wasn't the theory I mentioned in the episode thread if that was what you were looking for...
I can't seem to find it. Got a link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian View Post
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers. This is a Red Truth left out of the final episode. That's why I say they aren't murderers, but accomplices.
Hm.... was that for that one game, or for all of them? It's a bit ambiguous that way.

One other crazy theory: According to Beatrice, There are no more than 17 people on this island. Has Battler actually ever seen Shannon and Kanon at the same time?

Last edited by Arbane the Terrible; 2009-12-27 at 02:03.
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:52   Link #1095
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I'm actually quite convinced that the central culprit is Kanon (Who may or may not be Shannon), possibly with an accomplice (Nanjo?), and another killer who changes depending on how the game starts.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm sticking with this until it's proved wrong

If Kanon is the culprit, him just pretending to cut the chain makes sense, maybe he and Nanjo planned it in advance and all Nanjo had to do was tape or glue the chain together or something...

After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and glues/tapes the chain together and leaves. Kanon returns with the bolt cutters and pretends to cut the chain, and nobody inspects the chain closely enough to see the tape/glue or If the door was taped, Kanon removed the tape after pretending to cut the chain
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Old 2009-12-27, 01:55   Link #1096
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Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible View Post
Hm.... was that for that one game, or for all of them? It's a bit ambiguous that way.

It was for Episode 1, specifically used when referring to the clockwise deaths, when Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were all found dead while Maria faced a wall.

However, The Red Truth is absolute, as in, even if Beatrice was using the Red to speak of that particular incident, she would not be capable of saying it if it did not apply to the entire world of Episode 1. The reasoning being because the Red which was given does not specify this incident; therefor its vagueness is more like a blanket statement in which Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
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Old 2009-12-27, 02:01   Link #1097
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Originally Posted by ChibiBear View Post
I'm actually quite convinced that the central culprit is Kanon (Who may or may not be Shannon), possibly with an accomplice (Nanjo?), and another killer who changes depending on how the game starts.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm sticking with this until it's proved wrong

Also for the servants working together thing, if Kanon is the culprit, him just pretending to cut the chain makes sense, maybe he and Nanjo planned it in advance and all Nanjo had to do was tape or glue the chain together or something...

After Genji left, Nanjo killed Eva and Hideyoshi, and then hid in the room when Genji and Kanon came to call them for dinner. After they go off to find wire cutters/call Natsuhi, he draws the magic circle and glues/tapes the chain together and leaves. Kanon returns with the bolt cutters and pretends to cut the chain, and nobody closely inspects the chain.
I've begun to think there are 2 factions, because everyone ends up dead.

Spoiler for Faction A:


Spoiler for Faction B:


I made an edit on B if anyone just read this lol.
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Old 2009-12-27, 02:04   Link #1098
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I agree, the central culprit most likely has something against Battler.
My theory: Asumu had a son 18 years ago, who is not the Battler we know. Kanon's real name is not known, and very little is known about his childhood, and he could possibly be 18 years old and just look young for his age. Maybe he's the real 'Battler Ushiromiya', and he's taking revenge on Battler for taking away his title?

I can't seem to find my last post either... I'll post it again later and try to word it better because it didn't completely make sense last time.
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Old 2009-12-27, 02:09   Link #1099
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I agree, the central culprit most likely has something against Battler.
My theory: Asumu had a son 18 years ago, who is not the Battler we know. Kanon's real name is not known, and very little is known about his childhood, and he could possibly be 18 years old and just look young for his age. Maybe he's the real 'Battler Ushiromiya', and he's taking revenge on Battler for taking away his title?
I think Kanon is supposed to be closer to Jessica's age. Besides, if Battler is not Asumu's son (as we know, biologically, they aren't related), then its far more likely that he is Kyrie's son. I wouldn't put it past Rudolf to have slept with them both and for their children to be born around the same time. However, Asumu not wanting to be without Rudolf, paid the doctor off to switch her stillborn with Kyrie's.

I think Kanon might be an accomplice, but he probably isn't always one. I think the games make him look suspicious on purpose, a red herring maybe.
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Old 2009-12-27, 02:18   Link #1100
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I did think that Kanon was being framed since it seemed too obvious, but it seems easier to explain if he was the culprit
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