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Old 2010-01-11, 17:16   Link #1121
Chishio no Hana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferv. View Post
(I rewatched the scene and wondered how Kanon can be so calm?)
.
Actually, in the visual novels the he is on the brink of tears. And it's described 'as if his own heart had died along with Shannon'
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Old 2010-01-11, 17:22   Link #1122
Ferv.
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Originally Posted by Chishio no Hana View Post
Actually, in the visual novels the he is on the brink of tears. And it's described 'as if his own heart had died along with Shannon'
I haven't read the visual novel. But I could tell through speculation that many important parts and scenes were rushed in the anime. Well that's what you get for covering over 24 hours of game play in a few hours I guess?
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Old 2010-01-12, 00:10   Link #1123
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Originally Posted by Ferv. View Post
Question comes who took the key out of Maria's letter and returned it. Jessica may be an accomplice, or anyone else.
We really need to give to the anime viewers all the red truths that are missing.

Spoiler for omitted relevant red truths in the novel:
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Old 2010-01-12, 03:43   Link #1124
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We really need to give to the anime viewers all the red truths that are missing.

Spoiler for omitted relevant red truths in the novel:
Oh yea, is it a red truth that there's no other key ? Forgot. I also forgot whether they were killed inside the shed or dragged into the shed, becos if they were killed inside the shed that makes it easier to theorise lol. Can you lock the door from inside?

A possible motive for all of the culprits and accomplices could be that they are just trying to make it seem like magic and witches exist? By making weird murder cases? Also kinda explains why Rudolf said to Battler that he will probably die that night, IF Rudolf were to be one of the people behind the crimes.
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Old 2010-01-12, 03:53   Link #1125
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Wait wait I think we are getting confused here. Since you taked about the key in Maria's letter I thought you were talking about the murder in chapel of EP2. I don't remember any other key in any Maria's letter.

the red truths above refer to the chapel murder of EP2, sorry...
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Old 2010-01-12, 04:33   Link #1126
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Wait wait I think we are getting confused here. Since you taked about the key in Maria's letter I thought you were talking about the murder in chapel of EP2. I don't remember any other key in any Maria's letter.

the red truths above refer to the chapel murder of EP2, sorry...
Oh yea, I confused myself too lol muddled the two episodes. =_=;

lol how about for those red hints though that since it wasn't passed through anyones hands it was passed through legs lmfao.
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Old 2010-01-12, 07:00   Link #1127
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I've been thinking about this for awhile but is it possible that the reason for why Kinzo's death has been kept hidden and the reason for it always being found burnt isn't just because he died but because he was murdered (either accidentally or purposely)? Furthermore, I think that Natsuhi really thought that she saw Kinzo (or his spirit anyways) in game one. I just don't think that she is properly sane which may be the reason behind her headaches (unless they was another stated reason for why she had them). I also think that Eva's note in the door was more of a bluff then a truth. I think that she assumes (like the other adults) that Kinzo is dead to begin with and was trying to use this as a way of confirming it indirectly.

I don't like the wording of the red truth of there being "no more than 17 people" on the island. As when it before when it was "no more than 18" when it was believed that Kinzo was alive, I think that it may also create an illusion of there being that many people actually there. Is it possible that somebody else is either not really there or dead to begin with as well? If this is true than it can be presumed that there are actually either less than 17 people OR that there is a mysterious seventeenth person on the island (well, I guess it could be more than 1 mysterious person but I think that would be a little too much).

Also in episode 3 with Nanjo's death, I've been thinking that the person who actually killed him had nothing to do with the actual murders in any of the other episodes (as well as that one). I remember reading somewhere that one of the things that were not included in the anime was that quite a few people were sloppily "killed" and did not die immediately. Taking this into account and other factors that were brought up during the episode: I believe the person who killed him was one of these people and shortly after, died of either blood loss or being killed by Eva who had already turned crazy due to Battler and seeing someone who was supposed to be dead continued to push her over the edge. The person that I think this is
Spoiler for person:

Also, in the first episode, was it ever confirmed that everyone who died in the first twilight died at the same time? Also towards the question of the envelope with the key in episode 2, was it ever said in red that it was the ONLY envelope? I'm pretty sure that Maria already knows who is behind the murders on the island and could easily help in this regard. If she opened the envelope . . . used the key for the cuplrit . . . then put the key in a second already prepared envelope . . . there would be no problem. As long as it was only Maria that was using the key.

Spoiler for Beatrice:

Last edited by Muyasuki; 2010-01-12 at 08:26.
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Old 2010-01-12, 11:35   Link #1128
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Originally Posted by Ferv. View Post
Oh yea, I confused myself too lol muddled the two episodes. =_=;

lol how about for those red hints though that since it wasn't passed through anyones hands it was passed through legs lmfao.
Of course! The culprit just walked on his hands from the cousin's room to the chapel holding the key on his naked feet! That's perfect! Mistery solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyasuki View Post
I also think that Eva's note in the door was more of a bluff then a truth.
Well Eva was clever there. Before telling her intentions she made Natsuhi confirm that she noticed a receipt on the floor after she opened the door. In that way Natsuhi couldn't say that there wasn't any receipt in the first place anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyasuki View Post
Also, in the first episode, was it ever confirmed that everyone who died in the first twilight died at the same time?
As far as I know, no. And I don't think it was ever stated for any of the first twilights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyasuki View Post
Also towards the question of the envelope with the key in episode 2, was it ever said in red that it was the ONLY envelope? I'm pretty sure that Maria already knows who is behind the murders on the island and could easily help in this regard. If she opened the envelope . . . used the key for the cuplrit . . . then put the key in a second already prepared envelope . . . there would be no problem. As long as it was only Maria that was using the key.
This is one of the two main theories. This one however depends on how you interpret "through no ones hands". Since Maria didn't actually touched the key directly it could be said that she is also included on that definition and that means she couldn't use the key either. Conversely the supporters of that theory claims that it must be interpreted as "through no one else's hands".
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Old 2010-01-12, 12:48   Link #1129
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What if Shannon is actually Kanon and it makes up for 17 people with a person X?

That might explain Kanon's girliness and why Jessica fell in love with him? Lol. Also why Kanon doesn't have a name?

edit to below: Oh... well I thought if that worked out Shannon's corpse in epi1 could have not even existed, and Kanon's disappearance in ep2 could've been Shannon just being Kanon lol.

And Shannon running out to get the spiderweb could've been used for something else? Like moving the corpse around?

Last edited by Ferv.; 2010-01-12 at 13:01.
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Old 2010-01-12, 12:52   Link #1130
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He has one in Ep6
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Old 2010-01-12, 13:08   Link #1131
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that's the shkannon theory it has been at the center of several debates since a long time and still running.

Let's say there are strong hints that would point to this possibility, most notable the facts that Battler never sees both of them at the same time and one of the bodies (kanon's) is often missing.

However as much as the story progresses the elements that disprove it get harsh and harsher and right now the only way to get around them is postulating some very dirty trick in the red truths.
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Old 2010-01-12, 13:14   Link #1132
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Oh... I thought i was the only one who thought of that. ._.

But now that I think about it it also might explain how he wants to become human and blah blah because he's actually a figment of Shannon's imagination from some lost brother or something and Shannon is just forcing him to exist but subconsciously realises that he does not exist? Lollll. I read the timeline thing from a few pages ago did Kanon not get employed years after Shannon?
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Old 2010-01-12, 15:23   Link #1133
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That's correct, Kanon started working as a servant in 1983, while Shannon started in 1976, 7 years before
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Old 2010-01-18, 05:44   Link #1134
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just finished watching the anime. going to read the translation project later today. just wanna say that im pretty damn curious about the cliffhanger ending.

oh and of course umineko seems to be a contradiction in itself. because either:

a) there IS magic, some sort of, or all those games, repeated worlds would be impossible.

or

b) there is no magic. that would just leave one conclusion. battler is the killer himself and has totally gone nuts and by fantasizing about all those things he's spending his time. :O

i know it sounds ridiculous, but to me everything else from those two options doesn't make sense at all.
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Old 2010-01-18, 08:50   Link #1135
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maybe is someone else that is fantasizing about all those things, it doesn't necessarily needs to be Battler. Actually the 4th games tells us that there are a lot of people who call themselves "witch hunters" that do exactly that also thanx to the messages in the bottles that were found.
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Old 2010-01-19, 00:10   Link #1136
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I have an idea and I don't know if its really been thought about too deeply or if someone has already posted similar thoughts. This relates to the meta-world characters.

Spoiler for space.:
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Old 2010-01-19, 05:11   Link #1137
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The stakes = adults theory has been around for some time now. I personally believe in the theory and think we can learn a great deal by comparing the adults to the stakes.
Lambda and Bern, on the other hand, is a bit harder. If Beato would represent the culprit, than perhaps Lambda and Bern represent the reason she kills (money problems etc.), but if the culprit is killing because of Battler's sin this doesn't make any sense.

Also, if I hear one more Gaap = Nanjo I'm gonna jump off of something.
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Old 2010-01-19, 09:07   Link #1138
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Kyrie-Leviathan link is pretty much confirmed, but there's a bit of confusion about the rest.

For example everyone thought Rosa should be paired with Satan since Rosa is definitely the one who is more prone to anger than anyone else, however EP4 seems to rather point that her major sin is "lust".

And one would wonder why it isn't Rudolf since it is well known that he is a philandered who got two women pregnant at the same time. And why is he paired to Belphegor even though he's been described as a workaholic by Ange?

Eva strikes me as greed especially after EP3, but some says pride.

Natsuhi is the one who is more fixated with the family honor so you could say pride, but she's also the one who's more prone to anger after Rosa.

Hideyoshi seems the only one who could be paired with Beelzebub, and he's been staked by her before. 'though it's not like we really got many reasons to believe that Hideyoshi is a glutton and we have neither any scene with Hideyoshi interacting with Beelze.
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Old 2010-01-19, 17:40   Link #1139
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And one would wonder why it isn't Rudolf since it is well known that he is a philandered who got two women pregnant at the same time. And why is he paired to Belphegor even though he's been described as a workaholic by Ange?
Actually, that fit with Belphegor. Despiting representing the sloth, she is the one who work the hardest isn't she? She says it is to encorage the others to do nothing (since she do all herself). So maybe Rudolf work so mcuh so Kyrie don't have to work herself? She doesn't work right?

If you think beyond just the sins, Rosa fit Asmodeus very well, as the younger and more childish. Same for Krauss and Lucifer, as the older child, but also the less competent one. He is also very prideful, trying to proove his worth to Kinzo no matter what (what was his biggest sin, as only caused problem to him).

Then I gues Natsuhi is Satan, Eva, Mammon, and Hideyoshi is Beelzebub. Natsuhi and Eva fit with their demons' sin, but I don't see any similarity beyound that. And Hideyoshi... he sin is gluttony because... he is fat? I don't know, really.
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Old 2010-01-19, 21:36   Link #1140
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Doesn't Sloth have a second meaning to do with sadness or something? Maybe that would change the interpretation of the stake/adults thing a little bit...
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