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Old 2009-10-27, 03:39   Link #881
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Hmmm, If I were Lelouch, and I had the power to Change the World; which girl would I choose?

Not that anyone gives a ratt's arse, but here's my take on the "ships" of Code Geass.

Lelouch appears to have a similar mindset as that of his father from what I see re-watching the series on DVD (well up to R2 episode 07: the Abandoned Mask).
What I mean by that is that Lelouch is very passionate in what he believes and is driven by his emotions rather than pure cold logic.
Lelouch doesn't appear to be the type of guy who settles down with one woman.
He's sort of like a Captain Kirk, James Bond, or other larger-than-life Macho-type masculine figure (even Light Yagami had multiple women ).

Thus I think that he had feelings (implied in the anime, not official in the R2 Guidebook) for all three women (CC, Shirley, Kallen) as various parts of the show.

The canon R2 Guidebook states that Lelouch only loved Nunnally and Euphemia, but that doesn't jive with the anime IMHO.

The guidebook has a lot of good information on vehicles, general character reviews, nice pictures, and a decent series overview, but it states that Lelouch saw CC as only a accomplace, Shirley as a friend, and Kallen as a comrade (he rejected her according to the R2 Guidebook, and no Celis Galvae's translation is not correct IMO).
That seems stupid to me, so I reject the canon as far as Lelouch's love life is concerned.

So for me the guidebook is basically useless for determining who Lelouch was in love with (if anybody).
Thus (as Blade pointed out to me elsewhere, and I agree with him in part) we must use the anime.

I've read what you all think, and I can respect it (all of the ships, including the CC fans), but I'm not convinced he only loved Kallen, or Shirley, or CC.

I think being the troubled teenager that he was (as Zetsuo Bunny said here on the Lelouch thread) Lelouch didn't pick any one of the three women that were close to him.
I think he wanted them "a la carte" because it fits his personality and his ego.

People say he wasn't boinking CC.
I disagree (I know officially he is a virgin but I cry BS!)
Lelouch was a 17 year old, physically fit, egocentric, hormone-raging, stressed out male.
Perhaps its just a Phalis thing, but believe me, if CC gave him the chance he'd have done her in a New York minute.
But love her? Not so sure about that.
I think he'd use her for sex and maybe come to like her as a friend under different circumstances, but I'm not sure Lelouch would love her without some other simuli to move him in that direction.

Shirley I think he'd be more suave with...make her a real girlfriend had she lived.
Again, would he love her?
Not sure.
Why?
Because Lelouch is so egocentric that I find it hard to believe he could love anyone romantically for very long.
I think Shirley had the best chance of being with Lelouch, but she died so that kinda put an end to that.

And this Forum's favorite;
Kallen...well Lelouch showed what he thought of her when he wanted to use her for sex.
That's not love, that's lust...try telling the girl in your life that you want her to take care of your manly needs just because you feel depressed.
You can bet she'll tell you where you can shove your problem because she knows it's not love, it's just your John-Thomas talking.

I think Lelouch lusted after Kallen and wanted her sexually for most of S1 and the start of R2, but after he started the ZR I don't think he was capable of having sexual lust, let alone be in love, anymore with anyone (even if he had actually loved Kallen, at that point it didn't matter).

I'm sure Lelouch was aware of Kallen's feelings at the end of R2 (even before she kissed him) and that's why he rejected her just before the climax of the ZR, because he didn't want to hurt her, or anyone else, anymore than he had already.

Did he love Kallen?
Maybe...maybe not.
I don't care for the fanon which swears by every frame in the show where they are seen together that there's something romantic there, because it's condecending and silly (not too mention taking all the fun out of the love life of Lelouch).
The same thing could be said about Lelouch and Euhpie on Kaminejima Island...but do I see Euphie and Lelouch as a thing? Heck No.
The creators don't tell us who he loved, so anybody's guess is as valid as anybody else's.

My guess is that he loved/lusted after all three women at different points in the series, but by the end of R2 Lelouch was incapable of loving anyone romantically.
I disagree.

Simple, and fast, cause I have to go to school.

1 No it was never stated that Lelouch only loved Nunally and Euphemia. If you are talking about the schema thing, there was a pink line showing Euphie as his first love, so yeah, it was simple as that, first love. Now with the end they gave us (and since they even managed to erase a key line for Kallen so that they will reach this goal) aka the ambiguous end, they weren't going to write black on white that he loved Kallen/Shirley/Mickey Mouse.

Nonsense.

2 If the fact they wrote some wtuff is enough for you think of what they didn'(t write.
Theyr wrote he didn't love C.C. and that is, canonically, true. It was not romance, he certainly had feelings for her like you and I have feelings for friends and foe *off*. But they didn't wrote he didn't have feelings for Kallen or Shirley.
Strange isn't it ? Instead of that they talked about Shirley's love for him and about Kallen understanding him in the end living while keeping her feelings for him.
If he didn't love those two women who were the most close to be canonically involved with him, why not saying it ? Instead they basically gave us "yes but..."

3 Celiss's translation were wrong ? Then you can basically say that most translations about Geass are wrong. Yeah, who care if we get 36 translations being the same (cause they are. The whole "Rejecting Kallen" was nothing more than that. He rejected her in Turn 22 by not saying anything in a so "Goodbye my lover I can't tell you this cause that would be the end for you" cliche scene and choose to continue on his path with Suzaku and C.C..

Does it mean he loved Suzaku and C.C. ? Yeah obviously no.

4 Yeah it's true that when you wanna have sex with a girl she is nothing but a whore to you. I mean, it's not like people in love were having sex, it's nonsense.
No seriously. This scene was just the culmination of Lelouch teasing Kallen about her body (episode 2) about their relationship (episode 5) and about her being ready to obey to all of his orders.
Do you know legend of the galactic heroes ? It's basically the origin of Geass. The emperor seeks comfort of his most loyal soldier and she accepted. And I dare anyone to say Hildegarde was a simple slut. Yeah, not really.
Finally there the guy ends up marriying her and she turns empress. It's basically the same which happened in CG but with the fact we didn't get any ever after cause Kallen put an end to it by sliaping him.

Now the rest of his actions about her speak louder than words. You don't ask a girl to come back wiuth you in the end cause she is sexy. You don't risk your whole army to a girl c&use she is sexy. You don't put her in the same bag that your precious little sister, aka "important things stolen by Suzaku" cause she is sexy, you don't choose to lie to her so she will be saved and you'll die (cause yeah Lelouch was searching for a way to get out of the trap before he saw Schneizel. Basically he trade his life for Kallen's.) cause she is sexy, and you don't risk your whole plan by pushing aside the only pilote who could be a risk to that plan and who worked dangerously her way in, cause the pilot is sexy as hell.

And no once again, Lelouch died as a virgin, he wasn't even battling an eye when the girl was half naked in front of him, it was stated she was for him like an alien for season 1. After what, they were complices and certainly friends but no, you can as well say he had sex with Dumbo it will be more believable.

So yeah, I disagree.
Now law is waiting for me ~
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Old 2009-10-27, 04:15   Link #882
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As a Shirlulu shipper, I've always completely rejected the 'push away those you hold dear' line as a denial of love from the start. Yes, Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories, and other examples of pushing her away from him, are driven by guilt. Even this guilt, however, is certainly specific to Shirley, grounded in his care for her. However, it is indeed the opposite, Lelouch's examples of accepting Shirley and keeping her close to him, that more convincingly represent love. I.e., returning Shirley's kiss, and jumping off a building to save her.

Your belief that Code Geass' creators 'certainly implied' that Kallen was Lelouch's most canon romantic interest is, however, biased. Try to understand: your belief in and preference for your preferred pairing may certainly be justified, but there is good reason why Shirley shippers are still around and proud today. You shouldn't make such presumptious statements. 'Time spent' with C.C. or Kallen isn't all that meaningful compared to the sheer impact and inspiration Shirley had on Lelouch, and as for romantic development strictly from Lelouch's end, Shirley had just as much, if not more, than Kallen (though Kallen did have more romantic development towards Lelouch from her perspective).
Keeping Shirley close to him? Lelouch spent most of R2 avoiding her, so as to not cause her more pain. Especially once he got his memory back. To be fair, that is Lelouch's own choice, and it certainly can be seen as a caring act. However, that botches their potential for a possible relationship, IMO. If you do not truly understand that person, then how can you have a proper relationship with them? Shirley cannot be part of Zero's life, as there is no place in it for her. Even if they truly loved each other, that Zero thing will always get in the way. And Lelouch catching her as she fell from the building is more of a spur in the moment kinda thing. If your friend fell from a building, wouldn't you catch him/her?

Oh, well, sorry then, I suppose it did sound presumptious, but I disagree with Shirley being so mindblowingly inspirational and impactful to Lelouch. Lelouch did not change into an amazingly cheerful and idealistic person by the end of R2. If anything, I was surprised that Lelouch did not kill Rolo right then and there after he admitted he shot Shirley. That means that for what's worth, he would not drop his plans and schemes for Shirley's sake, in fact, not even drop, but fast forward his plans. He was gonna kill Rolo eventually anyways. I was expecting him to go berserk when he heard Rolo say those words, pick up the gun, and send Rolo to oblivion. But he sure did screw up his own plans for Kallen's sake. Hell, he was even willing to surrender his life for her. I am not saying that means anything, but it's worth giving a thought. And in R2, I don't see how Shirley can be said to have the same amount of romantic development with Lelouch when he spent a date with her using her as a cover for his plans, and used a double for the only time he can see Shirley, when he is in Ashford.
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Old 2009-10-27, 10:44   Link #883
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
I disagree.

Simple, and fast, cause I have to go to school.

1 No it was never stated that Lelouch only loved Nunally and Euphemia. If you are talking about the schema thing, there was a pink line showing Euphie as his first love, so yeah, it was simple as that, first love. Now with the end they gave us (and since they even managed to erase a key line for Kallen so that they will reach this goal) aka the ambiguous end, they weren't going to write black on white that he loved Kallen/Shirley/Mickey Mouse.

Nonsense.

2 If the fact they wrote some wtuff is enough for you think of what they didn'(t write.
Theyr wrote he didn't love C.C. and that is, canonically, true. It was not romance, he certainly had feelings for her like you and I have feelings for friends and foe *off*. But they didn't wrote he didn't have feelings for Kallen or Shirley.
Strange isn't it ? Instead of that they talked about Shirley's love for him and about Kallen understanding him in the end living while keeping her feelings for him.
If he didn't love those two women who were the most close to be canonically involved with him, why not saying it ? Instead they basically gave us "yes but..."

3 Celiss's translation were wrong ? Then you can basically say that most translations about Geass are wrong. Yeah, who care if we get 36 translations being the same (cause they are. The whole "Rejecting Kallen" was nothing more than that. He rejected her in Turn 22 by not saying anything in a so "Goodbye my lover I can't tell you this cause that would be the end for you" cliche scene and choose to continue on his path with Suzaku and C.C..

Does it mean he loved Suzaku and C.C. ? Yeah obviously no.

4 Yeah it's true that when you wanna have sex with a girl she is nothing but a whore to you. I mean, it's not like people in love were having sex, it's nonsense.
No seriously. This scene was just the culmination of Lelouch teasing Kallen about her body (episode 2) about their relationship (episode 5) and about her being ready to obey to all of his orders.
Do you know legend of the galactic heroes ? It's basically the origin of Geass. The emperor seeks comfort of his most loyal soldier and she accepted. And I dare anyone to say Hildegarde was a simple slut. Yeah, not really.
Finally there the guy ends up marriying her and she turns empress. It's basically the same which happened in CG but with the fact we didn't get any ever after cause Kallen put an end to it by sliaping him.

Now the rest of his actions about her speak louder than words. You don't ask a girl to come back wiuth you in the end cause she is sexy. You don't risk your whole army to a girl c&use she is sexy. You don't put her in the same bag that your precious little sister, aka "important things stolen by Suzaku" cause she is sexy, you don't choose to lie to her so she will be saved and you'll die (cause yeah Lelouch was searching for a way to get out of the trap before he saw Schneizel. Basically he trade his life for Kallen's.) cause she is sexy, and you don't risk your whole plan by pushing aside the only pilote who could be a risk to that plan and who worked dangerously her way in, cause the pilot is sexy as hell.

And no once again, Lelouch died as a virgin, he wasn't even battling an eye when the girl was half naked in front of him, it was stated she was for him like an alien for season 1. After what, they were complices and certainly friends but no, you can as well say he had sex with Dumbo it will be more believable.

So yeah, I disagree.
Now law is waiting for me ~
I think you missed my point.

The point I'm making is that all the pairings are based on a positive claim from a lack of actual evidence in so far as Code Geass canon is concerned.
Thus staking a claim based soledly on observations and opinions from the anime (verses the R2 Guidebook) is a Logical Fallacy, specifically an argument from ignorance.
Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of it too, but I know that the creators stated that Lelouch was too wrapped up in his Rebellion/the Zero Requiem to be involved with anybody.

The only evidence we have is that Lelouch loved no one romantically so therefore everything else is opinion/fanon (my own opinions included).

Therefore is it just as valid to say that part of why Lelouch wanted to die was so he could be with Shirley (rather than Kallen or CC) so he finally made a choice in the Zero Requiem to die and be with "his true love" while creating a new world in the process.

Is that the "right" answer?
NO.
Is it logical?
Not in my opinion, but it is AS LOGICAL as Kalulu or Cluclu or SuzakuxLelouch or any other pairing.
That's the point.
Anyone who tried to say this or that pairing is more valid is being intellectually dishonest.

Code Geass is not a romance, it's a Sci-Fi Adventure with a tragic ending.

While I do appreciate you taking the time to express you viewpoint Lolipopi, and I respect your opinion, you MUST concede it is only your point of view and it is NOT canon, nor is it more or less valid than any other person's opinion on who Lelouch loved.

As I've said, I think if he would have loved anyone, his egocentric mental state would have made him a swinger.

Put it another way, I think Lelouch would have had Lemons for breakfast (CC), Strawberries for Lunch (Shirley), and Cherries for dinner (Kallen).
Lelouch is such an Uber-stud that no one woman is enought for him IMHO.
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Old 2009-10-27, 11:02   Link #884
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I think you missed my point.

The point I'm making is that all the pairings are based on a positive claim from a lack of actual evidence in so far as Code Geass canon is concerned.
Thus staking a claim based soledly on observations and opinions from the anime (verses the R2 Guidebook) is a Logical Fallacy, specifically an argument from ignorance.
Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of it too, but I know that the creators stated that Lelouch was too wrapped up in his Rebellion/the Zero Requiem to be involved with anybody.

The only evidence we have is that Lelouch loved no one romantically so therefore everything else is opinion/fanon (my own opinions included).

Therefore is it just as valid to say that part of why Lelouch wanted to die was so he could be with Shirley (rather than Kallen or CC) so he finally made a choice in the Zero Requiem to die and be with "his true love" while creating a new world in the process.

Is that the "right" answer?
NO.
Is it logical?
Not in my opinion, but it is AS LOGICAL as Kalulu or Cluclu or SuzakuxLelouch or any other pairing.
That's the point.
Anyone who tried to say this or that pairing is more valid is being intellectually dishonest.

Code Geass is not a romance, it's a Sci-Fi Adventure with a tragic ending.

While I do appreciate you taking the time to express you viewpoint Lolipopi, and I respect your opinion, you MUST concede it is only your point of view and it is NOT canon, nor is it more or less valid than any other person's opinion on who Lelouch loved.

As I've said, I think if he would have loved anyone, his egocentric mental state would have made him a swinger.

Put it another way, I think Lelouch would have had Lemons for breakfast (CC), Strawberries for Lunch (Shirley), and Cherries for dinner (Kallen).
Lelouch is such an Uber-stud that no one woman is enought for him IMHO.
I saw your point. But it's still not enough for me.

The fact Geass belongs to a category or another doesn't mean there wasn't a romance sublot in there and point it, there was one.

The fact that in the end we didn't get a clear answer doesn't mean ther is no answer at all; Guidebook, side stuff, and so on are there to let us think about those possible answer by giving us - for some (Dear C.C., goodbye) and + for others (the cherry girl ?)

Now if we wanna talk about writer's words, we can talk about how they said in season 1 the romance plot for Lelouch was moved in season 2 (SO there was a romance plot for Lelouch. ) and how Kallen's own story was moved to Lelouch (her Bg story which turned out to be more about her relationship with a siscon that about her relationship with her father.)

We can talk as well of Okouchi,n who does enjoy coupling Kallen's name with Nunally's when quoting people Lelouch made his world for.
Or as I said before, Lelouch's own words.

Now, no, this vision of Lelouch choosing Death for Shirley isn't as valid as others. i'm sorry, on one side you have a vision which isn't backed up by anything but your vision (or anyone's) of the thing, and on another side (let's use cherry girl again) you have a vision backed up by plenty of things in the show, in the side stuff, and in the writers words.
Writers said plenty of things, loudly, using side material, using show, but you seem to ignore those by backing this with your "he was too much involved blabla"
Yeah we know that, he never date anyone after all.
Doesn't change the fact the guy had seemingly feelings for some girls, and that, is not fanon, or we could as well juct watch CG promo pics while ignoring the serie, when it comes to the romance plot on Geass.

So yeah no, you could as well say he made out with Mickey Mouse if you are using the fact Geass isn't a romance story to talk about how pairings are all as much valid of the others. Especially when some pairings got a clear no while others are between the Yes/Maybe and the Yes/Fuck yes !

Gundam aren't romantic stories too, but it doesn't change the fact romance sublot are given for each series (from 0080 to 00 while watching Wing, if you see what I mean.)

So yeah I disagree again :P

For Kallen/Lelouch fans : Ahahaha I learnt today that in regards of the law, a silent can be a Yes (obvious but that's me). And I laughed.
I suck so hard :'P
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Old 2009-10-27, 11:16   Link #885
GundamFan0083
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Lolipopi, you're still not expressing anything but opinion.

I mean, if you go on some of the side-materials you find that Lelouch (according to this official Newtype story)

http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1144899.html

saw Kallen as a crab-headed monster who kicks him in the shin and he runs away from her.
At the end of the story he's staring into Shirley's eyes in class and talks about how Lelouch's heart feels funny when he sees Shirley.

He's telling this personal story to CC which can imply he's giving a part of himself to her.

Does this mean he loves CC or Shirley more than Kallen?
No.
Does it make ShirleyxLulu more valid than Kalulu or Cluclu or EuhpiexLulu or SuzakuxLulu?
No.
Why?
Because (as I already said) there IS no official pairing for Lelouch.

So you see Lolipopi, while your opinion is just as "correct" as any other, it is still only your opinion and not canon, since there is no canon in so far as Lelouch's love life is concerned.
It wasn't the focus of the story so very little attention was given to it (which is a pity IMHO).
Had I written the story I think I would have changed the very end to something more akin to this;

1) I would have had Kallen kill Suzaku
2) I would have had Lelouch kiss Kallen, not the other way around
3) I would have had Zero kill Lelouch but have it be Kallen under the mask
4) I would have gotten rid of the CC in the cart scene and cut right to Kallen's monologue.
5) At the end of her monolgue I would have had her describe how the Black Knights were still needed to maintain the peace and in that scene I would have had Zero walk up next to her in a private outdoor setting (like a tower balcony or promenade of the Ikaruga or some such). I would then have Zero remove his mask to expose him as Lelouch (for the viewer) and have the sigil of Geass appear in Kallen's left eye. Thus Lelouch would now be Immortal and Kallen would be the person he made a contract with.

That would be a Kalulu I would accept as canon, but as it stands now there is no official pairing.

Sidenote: I gotta get to the office I'm 20 minutes late already
I'll be back later this evening.
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Old 2009-10-27, 11:45   Link #886
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Lolipopi, you're still not expressing anything but opinion.

I mean, if you go on some of the side-materials you find that Lelouch (according to this official Newtype story)

http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1144899.html

saw Kallen as a crab-headed monster who kicks him in the shin and he runs away from her.
At the end of the story he's staring into Shirley's eyes in class and talks about how Lelouch's heart feels funny when he sees Shirley.

He's telling this personal story to CC which can imply he's giving a part of himself to her.

Does this mean he loves CC or Shirley more than Kallen?
No.
Does it make ShirleyxLulu more valid than Kalulu or Cluclu or EuhpiexLulu or SuzakuxLulu?
No.
Why?
Because (as I already said) there IS no official pairing for Lelouch.

So you see Lolipopi, while your opinion is just as "correct" as any other, it is still only your opinion and not canon, since there is no canon in so far as Lelouch's love life is concerned.
It wasn't the focus of the story so very little attention was given to it (which is a pity IMHO).
Had I written the story I think I would have changed the very end to something more akin to this;

1) I would have had Kallen kill Suzaku
2) I would have had Lelouch kiss Kallen, not the other way around
3) I would have had Zero kill Lelouch but have it be Kallen under the mask
4) I would have gotten rid of the CC in the cart scene and cut right to Kallen's monologue.
5) At the end of her monolgue I would have had her describe how the Black Knights were still needed to maintain the peace and in that scene I would have had Zero walk up next to her in a private outdoor setting (like a tower balcony or promenade of the Ikaruga or some such). I would then have Zero remove his mask to expose him as Lelouch (for the viewer) and have the sigil of Geass appear in Kallen's left eye. Thus Lelouch would now be Immortal and Kallen would be the person he made a contract with.

That would be a Kalulu I would accept as canon, but as it stands now there is no official pairing.

Sidenote: I gotta get to the office I'm 20 minutes late already
I'll be back later this evening.
Oh I understand it all. You are using sthis Newtype novel as a canon back up ?
First news, it's as much canon as the vermilion novel. Yeah, so if this is canon, Kallen/Lelouch as destined pairing is canon cause they met up as children and he gave her his peach.

Second news, even if it was canon, you have the whole tsunbdere sublot in there. She isn't really described as a "crab monster" but more as having her crab hair, so yeah, no.

Third new, which should have make you realize this story is as canon as well, whatever : Gino and Anya are in it. Yeah they were so important for Lelouch, of course they have to be there.
C.C. isn't in it. So I guess Lelouch seeing C.C. envious of his school life and proposing her to join when it's over didn't matter ?

Yeah no, I can argue about pairing in geass, but I can't about pairing in fic, sorry :P

And no, he isn't telling this story to C.C.. C.C. is meant to be telling this story, Lelouch isn't there (and yeah nonsense again : She isn't in his perfect world yet the fact he is telling her that means she does hold a special significance to him ?)

(And this story was translated on Asuki BTW, so yeah, we knew of it existence. Thanks Again, Blotty, Lie, and all the others !
We even partially wrote a fic following this plot : The whole Shirley being his GF, Kallen being one of his BFF, and being tsun tsun for him and him being tsun tsun with her (cause he is soo like that in there)

So yeah no. Bring real canon or say it all : KALLEN X LELOUCH IS MORE CANON TRAN YOU !)

Sorry, couldn't restrain myself more :'P And this evening I'm definitely sleeping, but if some nice other fan is ok to argue in there (where are everyone BTW ? ) I'd be glad to catch up as soon as I can.
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Old 2009-10-27, 11:48   Link #887
Nogitsune
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I think these discussions will live on until Okouchi comes out and says he was just screwing with everyone's head. xD

I indeed believe Kalulu and Shirlulu are the most "canon" pairing involving Lelouch (well, one could add Euphemia, since we all know who chibi!Lelouch would have picked... echem), seeing how CluClu was brutally strangled and there were definite romantic undertones.

Kallen got the "in the end, she was never able to capture Lelouch’s mind or heart” thing, but it depends on how you choose to understand that. Personally, I interpreted it as Lelouch choosing Zero Requiem over a possible future with her (or anyone else, for the matter), nothing more and nothing less. She has her poem and a heavy silence to make up for that.

Shirley's poem says Lelouch always "slipped through her fingers", but I can't help but think that this is what also happened to Kallen in the end. In a different way, maybe, but still, neither of them was able to hold on to him. Shirley has a lot of nice scenes and a not-really-but-kind-of canon side story to compensate for that, as well as the fact that I don't know about the guidebook even so much as implying that Lelouch didn't love her, which can't be said for C.C. or even Kallen (because you could understand it that way in her case). Well, except the thing with the "love arrows" that pointed from Lelouch to... no one, really.

However, saying that Kalulu and Shirlulu are no more canon that LuluSuza is pushing it in my opinion, despite me being all over the two. To my mind, Suzaku was undeniably the second most important person in Lelouch's life, but that's it. It's a nice pairing for fanwork, but in the actual anime, they didn't even get the obligatory kiss! Then again, there was that one Sound Drama...
Echem. xD

In conclusion, it can be said that it's very probable that Okouchi is reading through CG forums in his free-time and laughing at us.
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Old 2009-10-27, 12:26   Link #888
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There is no canon pairing regarding Lelouch. Though its never stated if he did/didn't Lelouch love Kallen or Shirley. Much like with the series itself, it wasn't clear(Kallen asked and got no answer for example). One can go by his actions and notice things to see what may have been his feelings toward the ladies. Thus leading to discussions. I wish it was clear so these discussions would end personally.

The R2 guidebook didn't state anything new about romance regardless when you think about it. Except the Lelouch not seeing C.C as an love interest(Didn't expect that). That was translated here like last year by very reliable translators. The whole Kallen not capturing Lelouch's heart or mind wasn't even the ending of her profile anyway to get the whole picture and her understanding Lelouch at the end, why he rejected/pushed her away and what he wanted for her. And why she'll always continue to love him and seems completely fine like that(Shown in character song).

We all saw the scene at turn 22, its obvious Lelouch pushed her away. It wasn't like he told her off as an rejection(Kallen didn't take it well since she didn't get her answer or any reply about his plans as well. I always thought him asking for an detour was interesting). Run that along with the staff mentioning that Lelouch was hiding his true feelings in the scene(Which was obvious btw just by watching it in my opinion. Especially with how it was presented).

Even with her poem(Which was beautiful to me in every way) which kind of went hand in hand with her profile about what Lelouch wanted for Kallen and why he pushed her away for her own good. Even showed that Lelouch knew of Kallen's feelings at that point and did what he had to do for her future without giving her an answer. Made an few members here interpretation at least here were correct/became an fact about turn 22 about why Lelouch did what he did. People can draw their own conclusions about Lelouch's feelings since it wasn't clear in the show. Though I say he did act on his personal feelings for Kallen at times during R2.

Either way for me, just the fact that Lelouch and Kallen feelings/how they acted toward one another changed over time was nice to me. Lelouch's reaction to her being captured which even surprised C.C of all people and him being called out on it by Diethard. To turn 19 when Kallen showing up and he stopped being all down and even apologized to her among everything else. I thought it was nice.
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Old 2009-10-27, 12:33   Link #889
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Keeping Shirley close to him? Lelouch spent most of R2 avoiding her, so as to not cause her more pain. Especially once he got his memory back. To be fair, that is Lelouch's own choice, and it certainly can be seen as a caring act. However, that botches their potential for a possible relationship, IMO. If you do not truly understand that person, then how can you have a proper relationship with them? Shirley cannot be part of Zero's life, as there is no place in it for her. Even if they truly loved each other, that Zero thing will always get in the way. And Lelouch catching her as she fell from the building is more of a spur in the moment kinda thing. If your friend fell from a building, wouldn't you catch him/her?
There's only one example of Lelouch explicitly intending to avoid Shirley in R2, actually. That being from Turn 12, and he didn't even follow through. As for 'understanding' each other, Shirley indeed come to do so, quite powerfully in fact, while Lelouch's understanding of what Shirley believed and lived for can be said to have been central to the defining act of Lelouch's life. If she managed to influence Lelouch that much even with so little time actually spent together, of course Shirley has a place beside Lelouch even in his life as Zero--with her at his side, he could have learnt so much more.

Quote:
Oh, well, sorry then, I suppose it did sound presumptious, but I disagree with Shirley being so mindblowingly inspirational and impactful to Lelouch. Lelouch did not change into an amazingly cheerful and idealistic person by the end of R2. If anything, I was surprised that Lelouch did not kill Rolo right then and there after he admitted he shot Shirley. That means that for what's worth, he would not drop his plans and schemes for Shirley's sake, in fact, not even drop, but fast forward his plans. He was gonna kill Rolo eventually anyways. I was expecting him to go berserk when he heard Rolo say those words, pick up the gun, and send Rolo to oblivion. But he sure did screw up his own plans for Kallen's sake. Hell, he was even willing to surrender his life for her. I am not saying that means anything, but it's worth giving a thought. And in R2, I don't see how Shirley can be said to have the same amount of romantic development with Lelouch when he spent a date with her using her as a cover for his plans, and used a double for the only time he can see Shirley, when he is in Ashford.
Shirley's death impacted Lelouch so much he decided to blame and massecre an entire compound of innocent people. The writers even inserted blatant parallels to the loss of his mother. As for inspiration, Shirley gave him a dream, reminded him what happiness was, and embodied his belief in tomorrow. With regards to romantic development, those negative examples don't take anything away from the positive ones. Lelouch returned her kiss, insisted he really did like her, wished for reincarnation, and thought of her first when he died. This at least equals any romantic signs he showed towards Kallen.

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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Now, no, this vision of Lelouch choosing Death for Shirley isn't as valid as others. i'm sorry, on one side you have a vision which isn't backed up by anything but your vision (or anyone's) of the thing, and on another side (let's use cherry girl again) you have a vision backed up by plenty of things in the show, in the side stuff, and in the writers words.
There is some backing to that 'vision' though: Lelouch very obviously wanted to die, and his first thought in dying was also Shirley. Furthermore, Lelouch brought up the idea of reincarnation in S1, Shirley echoed the concept in R2, and the World of C is also called explicitly a 'sea of reincarnation'. So it really isn't much of a stretch to say that the reason Lelouch wanted to die was to be with Shirley.

GundamFan0083, I pretty much agree with you (specifically about Lelouch being attracted to all 3 ladies, and none of them being canon), except for one thing: I think if Lelouch actually managed to get together, he'd be perfectly fine with just one of them. The reason that Lelouch doesn't 'stick to' just one isn't because he's not willing to commit, but because he loses them before he gets a chance to.
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Old 2009-10-27, 14:45   Link #890
Yami Sonozaki
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Ok, so leaving out C.C. who in many people's opinions doesn't have a part in Lulu's love life, we are left with Shirley and Kallen.

The reason we are having these 2 sides, ShirLulu and KaLulu, is simply because of fandom.
I see Kallen is pretty popular among everyone, so that's why she gets most of the votes, but in my opinion it's not right. I'm not a fan of her, nor am I a fan of Shirley (I'm a fan of Euphy actually, but in my opinion she doesn't make it, even if Lulu said she was "the first girl he ever loved") but if you watch the episodes with romantic/sad encounters between him and the 2 girls you would get to the conclusion that Shirley was more favored as being with him than Kallen. Most of the scenes were already explained by other people, so I'm not gonna do it too.
But there was this part about the scene when Kallen was captured and Lulu rushed to save her, which most of you Kallen fans say it was because he "loved" her. I kinda disagree. Yes he rushed to save her, ignoring everyone's advice, but considering she was his right hand woman, technically the best pilot he had, why wouldn't he ? Of course you wouldn't let her fall into enemy hands. Love simply doesn't explain this part. I'm not saying he didn't feel anything for her, it's shown he did care for her to some extent, but I disagree with it being love.
As for Shirley, he had no use for her in his Zero life, she couldn't pilot, she couldn't do anything to help. Heck if he didn't care for her, he could've just get rid of her. But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen: returning her kiss, making her forget all the sadness he caused her, jumping of the building to save her (which could have got him killed just that easy), the scenes at Milly's party in R2, her tragic death scene, and all of the parts he remembers, of his time spent with her, during the flashback before his death.
Kallen might have loved him, but I don't think it was the same way around.
Also, C.C.'s statement at the end of R2 "I said that Geass was the power of the King which would condemn you to a life of solitude. I think that maybe it's not quite corect. Right, Lelouch?" could mean he is not alone in C's World, but with the person he wanted to be, aka Shirley. But this can also mean a lot of other things, so it's not really valid.
The main point is, Shirley was the way to go, whether you agree with it or not. There simply aren't enough reasons to say Kallen was a better choice. I understand the fans, I'd to the same probably. She was by far his best pilot, best Knightmare, of course he had to keep her close.
This is from my view of the anime, I don't know and don't trust the guidebook.

Oh, and about Lulu dying a virgin, I don't know why I don't believe it. He was with C2 for so long, so I doubt they haven't done anything.
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:01   Link #891
bladeofdarkness
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1) its confirmed he died a virgin
2) sending your entire army to save one person when the fate of the entire war is at stake is not a logical move
especially since even after they WON the battle and were in the process of taking over the CF, he left it in other hands and went back to japan because of kallen being captured
its not proof that he loved her, but its proof that when kallen is concerned, lelouch's logic goes out the window
you know, kinda like with nunnaly
3) he didnt erase sheiry's memory to erase all the sadness he caused her
he erased her memory because she was having a nervous breakdown after the mind rape mao put her through
he did it to SAVE her
he made her forget EVERYTHING that happened that was causing her to lose it, which included himself as a result
4) this part
Quote:
As for Shirley, he had no use for her in his Zero life, she couldn't pilot, she couldn't do anything to help. Heck if he didn't care for her, he could've just get rid of her. But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen: returning her kiss, making her forget all the sadness he caused her, jumping of the building to save her (which could have got him killed just that easy), the scenes at Milly's party in R2, her tragic death scene, and all of the parts he remembers, of his time spent with her, during the flashback before his death.
he DID try to get rid of sheirly (read: push her away from him) which does not imply that he doesnt care about her
but that he didnt want her around him, even when she CAN be of use (ep 12)
he also returned kallen's kiss (even though he was suppose to pretend he DIDNT feel anything for her) and pretty much agreed to sacrifice his life in order to get her out of the way in ep 19
and his one frozen memory of kallen in his flashback is that of them kissing

believe what you want, but dont go around saying stuff like "But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen" without basis for it
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:33   Link #892
SonOfHeaven
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So because I'm an Kallen fan that means I favor the pairing with her more than another one ?(I go by development always) Season 1 it was between Shirley and C.C in my opinion and I still liked Kallen the most. I never really thought too much about Kalulu until R2.

For R2, I simply went by the development that was shown throughout the course of the season. In my opinion their relationship changed the most than the other two and that's what caught my eye(For any anime or show, I like to see this between two characters along with mutual care for one another about an potential romance). When I noticed the change in Lelouch's and Kallen's relationship and the scenes that occupying this especially turn 19(ZR as well, the reason why he left Kallen out). Lelouch didn't have to tell her live on since she would have anyway and probably forget about him in the process.

Either way its all opinions. One person thinks this, the other person thinks that. Personally I saw the possibility of Kalulu was high.
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Old 2009-10-27, 16:01   Link #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
1) its confirmed he died a virgin
2) sending your entire army to save one person when the fate of the entire war is at stake is not a logical move
especially since even after they WON the battle and were in the process of taking over the CF, he left it in other hands and went back to japan because of kallen being captured
its not proof that he loved her, but its proof that when kallen is concerned, lelouch's logic goes out the window
you know, kinda like with nunnaly
3) he didnt erase sheiry's memory to erase all the sadness he caused her
he erased her memory because she was having a nervous breakdown after the mind rape mao put her through
he did it to SAVE her
he made her forget EVERYTHING that happened that was causing her to lose it, which included himself as a result
4) this part

he DID try to get rid of sheirly (read: push her away from him) which does not imply that he doesnt care about her
but that he didnt want her around him, even when she CAN be of use (ep 12)
he also returned kallen's kiss (even though he was suppose to pretend he DIDNT feel anything for her) and pretty much agreed to sacrifice his life in order to get her out of the way in ep 19
and his one frozen memory of kallen in his flashback is that of them kissing

believe what you want, but dont go around saying stuff like "But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen" without basis for it
As I said, I'm only saying stuff based on what I saw in the anime.

1) confirmed by the guidebook? maybe. but you can't be sure of that if you just watched the anime
2)it depends. As I said, she was his most powerfull piece, his most skilled pilot, best knightmare, one pilot that could change the fate of a war. It depends on what he really thought. If he thought of Kallen as his best pilot, or if he cared for her as a person. You can't really say it's one or the other because it wasn't mentioned, it was just a matter of asumption. You can asume he lost his head and went after her because he cared too much for her as a person, but I can asume he did it because she was his best tool.
3)if you look closely at that episode again, you can see she wasn't really in such a bad mood after Lulu got her in his arms and calmed her. So you can't say he used his geass on her to calm her nervous breakdown. He used it to make her forget everything that made her unhappy. Save her, yeah, that too.
4)come on, saying that Shirley is of use in Zero's life (as Kallen is) is just wrong. Just because she wasn't completely useless in ep 12, doesn't mean he should have kept her close because of her usefullness. She has no real skills that can be of help to Zero. Also the "keep people you love at a distance" part comes in too.
Returned Kallen's kiss? You mean like he did with Shirley? Embracing her and holding her tight? That's returning a kiss. If he was supposed to "pretend" with Kallen that's another story, but that again is your point of view.
"and pretty much agreed to sacrifice his life in order to get her out of the way in ep 19" <- he didn't really have any choice. he didn't sacrifice his life, they were going to kill him anyway. Why not save someone if you're gonna die anyway?
"and his one frozen memory of kallen in his flashback is that of them kissing" <-- same goes for shirley, out of the many flashbacks shown of them;
"believe what you want, but dont go around saying stuff like "But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen" without basis for it" <-- there's basis in it

Anyway, I'm not gonna try and start a squabble with anyone here, especially with a Kallen fan <_< ...
I just said what I think, nothing more.
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Old 2009-10-27, 18:12   Link #894
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
it depends. As I said, she was his most powerfull piece, his most skilled pilot, best knightmare, one pilot that could change the fate of a war. It depends on what he really thought. If he thought of Kallen as his best pilot, or if he cared for her as a person. You can't really say it's one or the other because it wasn't mentioned, it was just a matter of asumption. You can asume he lost his head and went after her because he cared too much for her as a person, but I can asume he did it because she was his best tool.
Quite frankly, such an assumption is a deliberate attempt to ignore the obvious and undermine Kallen's importance. It wasn't because she was his best pilot, or he'd have said that. What he does say, plain as day, is that she is precious to him at the same level (or similar to at any rate) as Nunnally. There is no ambiguity in such a statement. Kallen is someone he cares for, and he risked his entire army, in the face of objection no less, to get her back. His reaction is also clearly not "I lost my best pilot" when Xingke grabs her.

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Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
if you look closely at that episode again, you can see she wasn't really in such a bad mood after Lulu got her in his arms and calmed her. So you can't say he used his geass on her to calm her nervous breakdown. He used it to make her forget everything that made her unhappy. Save her, yeah, that too.
What's your definition of a bad mood? You seem to be focusing on the minutia here and ignoring the whole. She was seriously messed up after having been manipulated by Mao, and she still was when Lelouch was hugging her. She would not have done well after that, so Lelouch did what he had to in order to fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
come on, saying that Shirley is of use in Zero's life (as Kallen is) is just wrong. Just because she wasn't completely useless in ep 12, doesn't mean he should have kept her close because of her usefullness. She has no real skills that can be of help to Zero. Also the "keep people you love at a distance" part comes in too.
She could have kept Suzaku at bay at the very least, but Lelouch pushed her away completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
Returned Kallen's kiss? You mean like he did with Shirley? Embracing her and holding her tight? That's returning a kiss. If he was supposed to "pretend" with Kallen that's another story, but that again is your point of view.
He did what seemed natural since Shirley forced it on him. It only made sense. By all rights he shouldn't have done the same with Kallen, given what he was trying to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
"and pretty much agreed to sacrifice his life in order to get her out of the way in ep 19" <- he didn't really have any choice. he didn't sacrifice his life, they were going to kill him anyway. Why not save someone if you're gonna die anyway?
Another narrow viewpoint. If it were just a matter of saving her, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of making sure she wouldn't think of him badly after it was done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
"and his one frozen memory of kallen in his flashback is that of them kissing" <-- same goes for shirley, out of the many flashbacks shown of them;
The Shirley kiss flashes by just as fast as almost every other memory. Kallen's holds for the longest of any scene in the entire montage bar the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki View Post
"believe what you want, but dont go around saying stuff like "But there's just too many scenes implying he cared for her to a much higher extent than Kallen" without basis for it" <-- there's basis in it
Only in your opinion, and only thus far by trying to marginalize Kallen's importance.
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Old 2009-10-27, 22:35   Link #895
GundamFan0083
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Oh I understand it all. You are using sthis Newtype novel as a canon back up ?
First news, it's as much canon as the vermilion novel. Yeah, so if this is canon, Kallen/Lelouch as destined pairing is canon cause they met up as children and he gave her his peach.

Second news, even if it was canon, you have the whole tsunbdere sublot in there. She isn't really described as a "crab monster" but more as having her crab hair, so yeah, no.

Third new, which should have make you realize this story is as canon as well, whatever : Gino and Anya are in it. Yeah they were so important for Lelouch, of course they have to be there.
C.C. isn't in it. So I guess Lelouch seeing C.C. envious of his school life and proposing her to join when it's over didn't matter ?

Yeah no, I can argue about pairing in geass, but I can't about pairing in fic, sorry :P

And no, he isn't telling this story to C.C.. C.C. is meant to be telling this story, Lelouch isn't there (and yeah nonsense again : She isn't in his perfect world yet the fact he is telling her that means she does hold a special significance to him ?)

(And this story was translated on Asuki BTW, so yeah, we knew of it existence. Thanks Again, Blotty, Lie, and all the others !
We even partially wrote a fic following this plot : The whole Shirley being his GF, Kallen being one of his BFF, and being tsun tsun for him and him being tsun tsun with her (cause he is soo like that in there)

So yeah no. Bring real canon or say it all : KALLEN X LELOUCH IS MORE CANON TRAN YOU !)

Sorry, couldn't restrain myself more :'P And this evening I'm definitely sleeping, but if some nice other fan is ok to argue in there (where are everyone BTW ? ) I'd be glad to catch up as soon as I can.
More canon?
No offense Lolipopi but there is NO such thing as MORE or LESS canon.
It either IS or it ISN'T, anything in between is unconfirmable and thus useless for factual discussion.
Therefore Kalulu is NOT canon any more than Shirlulu, Cluclu, SuzakuxLulu, RoloxLulu, or EuphiexLulu is.

Nogitsune, Son of Heaven, and Sol Failing are correct.
There IS no canon pairing...none, nadda, zip, zero, ziltch, so please stop stating your opinion like it's fact because it's not.

All pairing for Code Geass with regard to Lelouch are all fanfiction/fanon and that is how Okouchi meant it to be, he said so in one of the interviews last year (I forgot which one, I think it was the Continue #42 interview but I don't remember).

Therefore, if you want anyone to take you seriously and respect what you say (especially an older gent like me) you have to approach this with an open mind and not try to imply that yours is the "correct" opinion.
I'll say it again, I respect your view, but in turn I expect you to respect mine as well.

As I've said, I think Lelouch loved them all (CC, Kallen, Shirley), but I don't think he chose any one of them.
In fact, I think that Sol Failing and Yami Sonozaki have a point.
Lelouch chose death instead of being with Kallen and CC, that could (not does!) imply that he went to be with the woman he [may have] loved the most, that being Shirley.

All the stuff that Kallen fans think they see in the anime are disputed by fans of other pairings because they don't see it.

I do see some of what the Kallen fans see, and thus I think Lelouch did have feelings for Kallen, but I think it was more lust than love (although in the finale I think he did love her, but not just her).

But again this is all just speculation and opinion and is no more or less valid than anybody else's.

So I guess I should be labeled a LuluCCShirlKal fan because I view Lelouch as being too cool (and egotistical) to be with just one gal.

As a side note: I chose to label myself a LuluCCShirlKal fan because that is the order I think Lelouch fell in love with these women.
First CC in S1, then Shirley in R2, then finally Kallen at the end of R2. It really would have been nice if Sunrise had made this more concrete...I mean...If I didn't "know better" I'd think they were trolling their fans or something.

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Old 2009-10-27, 23:10   Link #896
gaffer7
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More canon?
No offense Lolipopi but there is NO such thing as MORE or LESS canon.
It either IS or it ISN'T, anything in between is unconfirmable and thus useless for factual discussion.
Therefore Kalulu is NOT canon any more than Shirlulu, Cluclu, SuzakuxLulu, RoloxLulu, or EuphiexLulu is.

Nogitsune, Son of Heaven, and Sol Failing are correct.
There IS no canon pairing...none, nadda, zip, zero, ziltch, so please stop stating your opinion like it's fact because it's not.

All pairing for Code Geass with regard to Lelouch are all fanfiction/fanon and that is how Okouchi meant it to be, he said so in one of the interviews last year (I forgot which one, I think it was the Continue #42 interview but I don't remember).

Therefore, if you want anyone to take you seriously and respect what you say (especially an older gent like me) you have to approach this with an open mind and not try to imply that yours is the "correct" opinion.
I'll say it again, I respect your view, but in turn I expect you to respect mine as well.

As I've said, I think Lelouch loved them all (CC, Kallen, Shirley), but I don't think he chose any one of them.
In fact, I think that Sol Failing and Yami Sonozaki have a point.
Lelouch chose death instead of being with Kallen and CC, that could (not does!) imply that he went to be with the woman he [may have] loved the most, that being Shirley.

All the stuff that Kallen fans think they see in the anime are disputed by fans of other pairings because they don't see it.

I do see some of what the Kallen fans see, and thus I think Lelouch did have feelings for Kallen, but I think it was more lust than love (although in the finale I think he did love her, but not just her).

But again this is all just speculation and opinion and is no more or less valid than anybody else's.

So I guess I should be labeled a LuluCCShirlKal fan because I view Lelouch as being too cool (and egotistical) to be with just one gal.

As a side note: I chose to label myself a LuluCCShirlKal fan because that is the order I think Lelouch fell in love with these women.
First CC in S1, then Shirley in R2, then finally Kallen at the end of R2. It really would have been nice if Sunrise had made this more concrete...I mean...If I didn't "know better" I'd think they were trolling their fans or something.
I quite like the balanced view point you give, thanks for that. Personally, I've always been a LelouchxCC shipper, even if it seems that is unlikely to be the case, I guess I just loved the relationship between the two. Having said that, I've enjoyed reading the very good arguments for both Kallen and Shirley in the Code Geass threads, and in the end, I can't help believing that each of the three shared a special place in Lelouch's heart, although to be honest, I think Lelouch is frankly naive when it comes to love, so he may not fully understand how he feels. Too much of a Byronic protagonist however not to spread the love around
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Old 2009-10-27, 23:43   Link #897
Rising Dragon
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We might as well just let Lelouch impregnate every single female in the cast and be done with it.
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Old 2009-10-27, 23:52   Link #898
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We might as well just let Lelouch impregnate every single female in the cast and be done with it.
He'd probably die from physical exhaustion before he got even halfway through (and I mean halfway through actual sex, not the whole female cast )

Anyway, kudos to you GundamFan0083. You have my respect. As you said, no one can prove that Lelouch truly loved any of the girls romantically to an absolute certainty, so it's all left to preference and interpretation. Although he probably did feel some kind of romantic attraction to both Kallen and Shirley (though I am going to side with the official guidebook in that he didn't love C.C. romantically, but their bond was still special)
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Old 2009-10-27, 23:52   Link #899
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by gaffer7 View Post
I quite like the balanced view point you give, thanks for that. Personally, I've always been a LelouchxCC shipper, even if it seems that is unlikely to be the case, I guess I just loved the relationship between the two. Having said that, I've enjoyed reading the very good arguments for both Kallen and Shirley in the Code Geass threads, and in the end, I can't help believing that each of the three shared a special place in Lelouch's heart, although to be honest, I think Lelouch is frankly naive when it comes to love, so he may not fully understand how he feels. Too much of a Byronic protagonist however not to spread the love around
Thank you. I try to stay open minded about this, especially since I don't want the proverbial "egg on my face" should Sunrise actually choose a pairing in the future (assuming there is anything in the future for CG).
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Old 2009-10-27, 23:53   Link #900
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
We might as well just let Lelouch impregnate every single female in the cast and be done with it.
I second this motion and vote to approve on grounds of complete awesomeness!!!!!!!
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