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Old 2009-06-15, 15:59   Link #101
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree with the first part, and I can understand the second.
The "pillars of existence thing" has been discussed so many times now that I won't even bother anymore. I have heard many interpretations, some awesome, some understandable and some quite strange. In the end, I go with what the staff deigned to put in the anime, what they added to underline some things and what they never said for some reason or another.
In the end, I end up with what might actually be my favourite pairing: The ambiguous.
It's so much fun to use in fanwork.
Alright, let me ask you then? What was it about? Nunally represented family, Suzaku represented friendship. What about Kallen? In relevance to the pillars-quote. What did Lelouch intend to mean? Kallen representing friendship again?
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:02   Link #102
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we're they even FRIENDS at all
they werent really all that friendly in ashford
and "zero" has no friends
none of their interactions we're of a "friendly nature"
but all of them had romantic cliche's in them
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:03   Link #103
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
-Betteroffer enters stage left in an elaborate Charles Zi Britannia outfit right down to the craaaazy hair-

All pairings...are not equal! Some involve near-asexual tsunderes and girls with huge tracts of land, some are with well-intentioned extremists and those with motherly dispositions! Still others are between egomaniacl bipolar narcissists with sociopathic tendencies and their masochistic heterosexual life partners, or even a bishounen and an adorable loli for good measure!

Yes by series, shippers, and orientation, each and every pairing is inherently different, and that is why people compete! Struggle! Ship! Debate! Analyze evidence! Brave the risk banning! All to see progress! The truth metted out! To enlighten others to canon that they simply can't see, but its there! It's totally there!!

What of those who encorage multiple partners?! Crowd pleasers! Cowards who would seek pacification over the 'truth!' The fools who deny romantic subplots?! Wretches who would deny an audience the joy of intriguing character development! All for the sake of "simplistic," or "linear" storytelling!!

BUT NO!! Not our kalulu !! We think! We study! We debate!! We justify! And that is why we hold the right to claim canon above all others!

All hail Shipping!!

ALL HAIL KALULUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!


@Nobody: For some reason I was looking at the pictures of Lelouch, Kallen and Shirley, and imagining their responses to your idea based on those expressions.
Actually, CluClu was a federation and Kalulu was an Empire. So I'll take this prompt as ours. Damn that was awesome, really XD

About Nobody's club, was it a need to think of the two ship as equally canon ? cause I joined just because I consider those two girls as the one Lelouch had feelings for, and to have some place of peace to discuss Shirlulu and Kalulu.

Kalulu is and will always be the more develloped (and no, I will not add IMO but ASO > At the staff opinion :'P) because of circumstances; No matter what we say, Shirley's death didn't help the ship, but who knows, had she not die, maybe finally nothing would have happened. At the very start of the serie I thought she'll give up at one point or another or > Stage 14 ending.

Finally they choose the worse decision but well. Anyway, Shirley got less to work on, and that doesn't help, we can't know what would have happened since it didn't.

Btw when i think about that, it's pretty awesome for kallen to have reach such a level while she was the one who started the race at the beginning of the serie with less to work on that both Shirley and C.C.. Though finally her BK status became a plus while compared to Shirley, when I think to C.C;'s situation i'm amazed they didn't chose the cliche romantic route with the mysterious emotionless girl. Kudos to you Okouchi, I really feared that.

Anyway even in R2, Kallen was in jail for 8 episode and keep apart from Lelouch for the rest of the serie. despite that they had this time to got; teasing moments, Two almost kisses, sexual tension, Lelouch turning OOC and adding her in the same bag as Nunally, Live on thing (the only one he said that was Suzaku, and some SuzaLulu fan seemingly call them Canon...well whatever), mutual kiss...

Damn, had they added the gum line + Lelouch's little wish line, this ship would have break the canon level, honest.

All of the others gumlines were really meaningful for each girl, and for Kallen to assume something like that...ah well, I want the scene.

Tokkan was right. The answer would have been :
"I don't want forgiveness". So like Lelouch.

Give us back our gumline, poem wasn't enough ☠
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:04   Link #104
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

What? Excuse me? Lelouch stated that on his own, how is it my interpretation?
Lelouch refers frequently in Kallen, in the R2 previews, that is something that is not up for question. It is canon fact.
And i did mention it, to show that a lot of things coming from Lelouch towards Kallen, it is not only "her being all over him."
No, but it is your interpreation/opinion that the "correlation" of the preview line and gumline would "close the canon deal".

All right, now gone for real.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:04   Link #105
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Alright, let me ask you then? What was it about? Nunally represented family, Suzaku represented friendship. What about Kallen? In relevance to the pillars-quote. What did Lelouch intend to mean? Kallen representing friendship again?
Actually, there were some interesting interpretations about the people who shaped his ideals the most and "kept him going". The word "pillar" implies a very strong support without which he might have trouble continuing.
Why should the staff put the ultimate prove for romance in a previw, of all things?
The very notion seems a bit... strange to me.
Hm. I wonder how people would interpret this line if the staff hadn't come out and said that yes, Lelouch and Suzaku were indeed best friends again by the end of the series.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:08   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune
It's so much fun to use in fanwork.
The thing is, while some don't care about canon thing (after all some knows Lelouch is dead but prefer to see him as alive, who can blame them ?), some do cares. I'm not jumping at people making fanworks for their ships, so I wonder why it bothers so much some people to see others discuss about canoness or things like that.

Some enjoy their fanworks
Some enjoy knowing everything about their ship, and what was meant to be

To each his own
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:08   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, there were some interesting interpretations about the people who shaped his ideals the most and "kept him going". The word "pillar" implies a very strong support without which he might have trouble continuing.
Why should the staff put the ultimate prove for romance in a previw, of all things?
The very notion seems a bit... strange to me.
Hm. I wonder how people would interpret this line if the staff hadn't come out and said that yes, Lelouch and Suzaku were indeed best friends again by the end of the series.
Did i say that this is the ultimate proof of canon? Why do you put words into my mouth? I just said, that this is another material, that adds up to Lelouch >>> Kallen.
And you did not really reply to my question.

@Nobodyman ^ the same as above
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:14   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
The thing is, while some don't care about canon thing (after all some knows Lelouch is dead but prefer to see him as alive, who can blame them ?), some do cares. I'm not jumping at people making fanworks for their ships, so I wonder why it bothers so much some people to see others discuss about canoness or things like that.

Some enjoy their fanworks
Some enjoy knowing everything about their ship, and what was meant to be

To each his own ♪
Disagreeing with a specific opinion is not the same as being bothered by people being interested in "canon" facts.
I like my canon facts, too. But if they aren't facts, I'll happily take them as they are. Writing a longer CG fic without putting some "hints" for both Shirlulu and Kalulu in it just wouldn't be as much fun. Not to mention I'm not one for serious romance, but that's another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Did i say that this is the ultimate proof of canon? Why do you put words into my mouth? I just said, that this is another material, that adds up to Lelouch >>> Kallen.
And you did not really reply to my question.
You kind of made it sound like that.
I just don't see Kalulu > Shirlulu.
And I did reply to your question. However, I won't write a whole novel about a line from a preview... again.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:21   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Disagreeing with a specific opinion is not the same as being bothered by people being interested in "canon" facts.
I like my canon facts, too. But if they aren't facts, I'll happily take them as they are. Writing a longer CG fic without putting some "hints" for both Shirlulu and Kalulu in it just wouldn't be as much fun. Not to mention I'm not one for serious romance, but that's another story.
.
Alas some canon facts are easily thrown away when it comes to specific thing.
But we know where this convo is going to bring us so well.

On another subject, I forgot but ....


Kallen x Lelouch were reincarnated in YuGiOh 5D's and I totally forgot to bring the subject. Honest that is awesome (and I break my promise to never watch again a YuGiOh show after the ending of the manga....I fail)
That or those two are Kallen and Lelouch's love children. Possibility as well. (anyway when i'm watching fanarts of those two I feel like seeing Kallen and Lelouch all over again, mwahahahaha. Aki x Yusei for the win)
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:23   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Disagreeing with a specific opinion is not the same as being bothered by people being interested in "canon" facts.
I like my canon facts, too. But if they aren't facts, I'll happily take them as they are. Writing a longer CG fic without putting some "hints" for both Shirlulu and Kalulu in it just wouldn't be as much fun. Not to mention I'm not one for serious romance, but that's another story.



You kind of made it sound like that.
I just don't see Kalulu > Shirlulu.
And I did reply to your question. However, I won't write a whole novel about a line from a preview... again.
You did not. I asked you what Kallen is supposed to represent, if Nunally represents family and Suzaku friendship, and you just said "kept going." How is this a reply to my point?

Alright, you do not see it, i respect that. But i suppose, that everyone can see, that statistically {interpretations outside} speaking, KallenxLelouch got the most materials right? How do you explain this?
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:23   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
Alas some canon facts are easily thrown away when it comes to specific thing.
But we know where this convo is going to bring us so well.
Specific things?
Like Kalulu?
Yes, I'm an evil, biased person who doesn't like canon romance. However, that doesn't mean I just ignore facts. I'm still waiting for the staff to tell me about the error of my ways outright.

Edit:
@sky:
The "family, friend, lover" interpretation is a completely different one from the one I countered it with. If I don't believe in something, I don't need to explain it.
Also, I said what I think about the material just recently. The side material about romance made more sense with Kaulu because in Shirley's case, the anime covered it all, and because of the way she and Lelouch "parted".
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:27   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Specific things?
Like Kalulu?
Yes, I'm an evil, biased person who doesn't like canon romance. However, that doesn't mean I just ignore facts. I'm still waiting for the staff to tell me about the error of my ways outright.

Why do you make it seem like Lolipopo said/implied that or "forced" you with her way to say this? This is not a right way, to reply to this thread, read the first post, we do not want ufo-"smart"-outright replies, that will only lead to nasty results. Being funny is better, you know. Being like this, is discouraged from this last version of this thread.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:29   Link #113
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

Why do you make it seem like Lolipopo said/implied that or "forced" you with her way to say this? This is not a right way, to reply to this thread, read the first post, we do not want ufo-"smart"-outright replies, that will only lead to nasty results. Being funny is better, you know. Being like this, is discouraged from this last version of this thread.
Hu?
I always call myself evil.
Also, Loli did indeed imply I ignore facts just because it suits me.
Ah, well, maybe I should take my leave from this thread. It's just no fun this way.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:30   Link #114
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Specific things?
Like Kalulu?
Yes, I'm an evil, biased person who doesn't like canon romance. However, that doesn't mean I just ignore facts. I'm still waiting for the staff to tell me about the error of my ways outright.

Edit:
@sky:
The "family, friend, lover" interpretation is a completely different one from the one I countered it with. If I don't believe in something, I don't need to explain it.
Also, I said what I think about the material just recently. The side material about romance made more sense with Kaulu because in Shirley's case, the anime covered it all, and because of the way she and Lelouch "parted".
You did not reply in my point though. So, it is "friendship" again, when it comes to Kallen then?

So, Lelouch and Kallen did not "part" in a goodbye-ish, cliche way? Because, having a goodbye kiss, and all the silence around and the fists, and the bitten lips, do make me think, they did part in a cliche-ish way.
And what are you implying exactly? About Shirlulu being covered in the show itself? So, Stages 12-14, and Turns 11-13 can be satisfying for the couple that do not need extra materials at all?
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:35   Link #115
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You did not reply in my point though. So, it is "friendship" again, when it comes to Kallen then?
If I don't think Nunally was supposed to symbolize family and Suzaku friendship, then this makes no sense.

Quote:
So, Lelouch and Kallen did not "part" in a goodbye-ish, cliche way? Because, having a goodbye kiss, and all the silence around and the fists, and the bitten lips, do make me think, they did part in a cliche-ish way.
Exactly.
Shirley's "parting" was about her inability to "grasp" Lelouch. Kallen's about her wanting an answer.
Both were covered in the poems.
Shirley might have been a possible love interest, but the tragedy of it all was still more important there. It's different, but not any less "canon romance".

Quote:
And what are you implying exactly? About Shirlulu being covered in the show itself? So, Stages 12-14, and Turns 11-13 can be satisfying for the couple that do not need extra materials at all?
If they didn't mean to make any ship canon, then yes.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:35   Link #116
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Specific things?
Like Kalulu?
Yes, I'm an evil, biased person who doesn't like canon romance. However, that doesn't mean I just ignore facts. I'm still waiting for the staff to tell me about the error of my ways outright.

Edit:
@sky:
The "family, friend, lover" interpretation is a completely different one from the one I countered it with. If I don't believe in something, I don't need to explain it.
Also, I said what I think about the material just recently. The side material about romance made more sense with Kaulu because in Shirley's case, the anime covered it all, and because of the way she and Lelouch "parted".
??
You are assuming things all alone. And not really correctly.
Do you want this thread to turn into a battle area again ?

I don't want to, so I am sad to say I will not play this game.


Now I don't think the story about Kallen/lelouch needing more materail tahn Shirley/Lelouch makes a lot of sense. Kallen/lelouch still had plenty more to work on than Shirlulu, they would have need material.

But the thing they get, while we get an Aishiteru assumption in kallen's poem, was a thing who fitted them tragically but beautiful "it's like trying to climb on a glass" or a line like that, meaning, Lelouch was meant to be out of her reach.

And if we look at both seasons, she was right.
Beautiful, tragic, indeed. But not really positive when it comes to "canon romance"
And actually this tragic side is what makes me finally interested in Shirlulu.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:39   Link #117
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??
You are assuming things all alone. And not really correctly.
Do you want this thread to turn into a battle area again ?

I don't want to, so I am sad to say I will not play this game.
I'm not sure how I should take "Alas some canon facts are easily thrown away when it comes to specific thing", then.
Ah, well, I'm gone from this thread. It makes me itchy, and yes, turning this into a battlefield again is the very last thing on my "to do" list.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:41   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If I don't think Nunally was supposed to symbolize family and Suzaku friendship, then this makes no sense.



Exactly.
Shirley's "parting" was about her inability to "grasp" Lelouch. Kallen's about her wanting an answer.
Both were covered in the poems.
Shirley might have been a possible love interest, but the tragedy of it all was still more important there. It's different, but not any less "canon romance".


It is not only about the poems, cause poems are mostly the thoughts of the given characters. {even thought Kallen's one is supposed to be the most controversial, but this is another convo}
It is the meaning of the poem as well, Shirley pretty much admitted, that as much as she did want to "catch" him, he always slipped somewhere away. But she did understand him in the end, that he was a kind person afterall deep inside, the boy she loved. Now, while this is beautiful and all this jazz, it does not really equate to closest-to-canon, the way Kalulu does. Simple, because Kallen does not only have her poem.
She has Lelouch's wish, she has her chara song, she has the mutual-kiss line. Things, that add more. So no, i am sorry, they are not on the same pedestal, KallenxLelouch is a step ahead, partly because staff made it seem like this. Bombing of official material again and again.
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Old 2009-06-15, 16:59   Link #119
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It is not only about the poems, cause poems are mostly the thoughts of the given characters. {even thought Kallen's one is supposed to be the most controversial, but this is another convo}
It is the meaning of the poem as well, Shirley pretty much admitted, that as much as she did want to "catch" him, he always slipped somewhere away. But she did understand him in the end, that he was a kind person afterall deep inside, the boy she loved. Now, while this is beautiful and all this jazz, it does not really equate to closest-to-canon, the way Kalulu does. Simple, because Kallen does not only have her poem.
She has Lelouch's wish, she has her chara song, she has the mutual-kiss line. Things, that add more. So no, i am sorry, they are not on the same pedestal, KallenxLelouch is a step ahead, partly because staff made it seem like this. Bombing of official material again and again.

Btw now that I think about that (again :'D)

Chara song : "Thank you for your love, I will not forget" + cliche romantic words you don't say usually to a guy who dumped you.
Poem : Basically you didn't say you loved me cause you didn't want to drag me down.
Gum line : Love assumption once again.

Honest if the staff is trying to imply it was somewhat one sided they did it totally wrong. if they are trying the other way around though...It works perfectly

And Lelouch's little wish. That is oddly intimate. I mean, a little wish just for her ?
Ah lol, this pairing might have been the most awesome thing ever had Kallen been able to pull a Cagalli on Lelouch.

Luluko with blue eyes....❤
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Old 2009-06-15, 17:10   Link #120
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Btw now that I think about that (again :'D)

Chara song : "Thank you for your love, I will not forget" + cliche romantic words you don't say usually to a guy who dumped you.
Poem : Basically you didn't say you loved me cause you didn't want to drag me down.
Gum line : Love assumption once again.

Honest if the staff is trying to imply it was somewhat one sided they did it totally wrong. if they are trying the other way around though...It works perfectly

And Lelouch's little wish. That is oddly intimate. I mean, a little wish just for her ?
Ah lol, this pairing might have been the most awesome thing ever had Kallen been able to pull a Cagalli on Lelouch.

Luluko with blue eyes....❤
Oh, i believe this line //"Just once more i'll try living your share of life, too"// among all the epic lines on this song, wins. 8D

But anyway, yes, if they did really want to display a non-that-close-to-canon-feeling, they definitely did it wrong. Partly, because they gave stuff, that involves both of them. Basically, balance.
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