AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-06-12, 07:20   Link #1
-HyugaNeji-
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Japanese Culture Locked Side-Topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASS in SPACE View Post
"Security guards" was a bad choice of words on my part. I meant more like ticket inspectors. We have them here in Australia, but they are a less than constant presence on our public transport system...



I am an Asian male, so do not worry hehe... It just took my fancy to imagine some pervert getting a taste of his own medicine from another male... Which brings me to another question. I am always hearing stories about an ultra conservative attitude in Japan, so what is their take on homosexuality? Are people open about it? If I was so inclined, could I just bring it up in a conversation without raising eyebrows? When I say "bring it up in a conversation", I mean within reason of course. I'm not talking about just going "So... What do you think about homosexuality?" There would be a proper lead in and everything.



With regards to that, we have been given a general idea as to how Japanese anime fans are treated, but how would a foreign anime fan be viewed? Assuming the average tourist fan is on the streets of Japan talking loudly about, say, Fate/Stay Night and does not know about the stigma attached to anime in Japan, would they be lumped in with the rest of the "otaku" or are they just classed as ignorant?
Strangely enough, the japanese seem to be quite tolerant towards homosexuality. Even though they are well known to be extremely xenophobic in general (probably the most xenophobic of all the so called "civilized 1st world countries"). I find that strange.
-HyugaNeji- is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 10:11   Link #2
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji- View Post
Strangely enough, the japanese seem to be quite tolerant towards homosexuality.
This is a stereotype and when you have to fight nasty stereotypes every day you become highly suspicious of them. Better look up some real data according to which Japan isn't that tolerant towards homosexuality compared to other parts of the classical "1st world" (I won't dwell on the "civilized" part). Though on a global scale it's certainly anything but a hostile country in that regard.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 14:17   Link #3
noraemon
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji- View Post
Strangely enough, the japanese seem to be quite tolerant towards homosexuality. Even though they are well known to be extremely xenophobic in general (probably the most xenophobic of all the so called "civilized 1st world countries"). I find that strange.
Is a Japanese famous for xenophobia?
I was shocked.
A Japanese is not xenophobia as far as I know it.
The Japanese is a curious, generous national character.
Therefore, the Japanese is generous also to the homosexual.

A lot of celebrities of the gay are performing to Japanese TV.
It is characteristic of them that it is a gay and appears on TV.

I think that a national character to which Japanese curiosity is strong and generous is understood with the anime and the manga.
The anime and manga takes anything in.

Anything can be permitted in Japan if it doesn't trouble others.
Therefore, there are a lot of young people of an original fashion in the town.

In such Japan, there is no thing that the Japanese dislikes only by the reason of foreigner.
The Japanese doesn't have the thing of not accepting by a trifling difference of color of the hair, eyes, and the skins.

The Japanese dislikes the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime.
Statistics of the nationality of the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime are being announced by the police.
The person in such a country is disliked.

The Japanese does not dislike foreigners.
The Japanese is not afraid of a foreigner.
noraemon is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 15:03   Link #4
-HyugaNeji-
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
Is a Japanese famous for xenophobia?
I was shocked.
A Japanese is not xenophobia as far as I know it.
The Japanese is a curious, generous national character.
Therefore, the Japanese is generous also to the homosexual.

A lot of celebrities of the gay are performing to Japanese TV.
It is characteristic of them that it is a gay and appears on TV.

I think that a national character to which Japanese curiosity is strong and generous is understood with the anime and the manga.
The anime and manga takes anything in.

Anything can be permitted in Japan if it doesn't trouble others.
Therefore, there are a lot of young people of an original fashion in the town.

In such Japan, there is no thing that the Japanese dislikes only by the reason of foreigner.
The Japanese doesn't have the thing of not accepting by a trifling difference of color of the hair, eyes, and the skins.

The Japanese dislikes the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime.
Statistics of the nationality of the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime are being announced by the police.
The person in such a country is disliked.

The Japanese does not dislike foreigners.
The Japanese is not afraid of a foreigner.
Of course you would say that. But the reality speaks another language. Korean minorities have to use japanese names to get jobs and to get accepted. I recently saw a documentary about the latent discrimination of koreans and the Ainu. Then you can find alot of restaurants, hotels, bars etc. with signs that say: No foreigners allowed. Or. Foreigners can only enter with japanese friends. Seriously, this open form of racism should be condemned and banned. I'm very sensitive about things like that, because i'm german. In germany we are force fed our history and confronted with EVERY atrocity commited by the Nazis in school. Schools often visit ex concentration camps to realize what our ancestors have done. We're ashamed of it. But we accepted our past. We confront it. We try to NEVER let sth. like that happen ever again. I'm angry that in japan, the past wasn't handled that way.

Japan commited countless atrocities, one of the most disturbing is the nanking massacre. Why is it, that you still try to avoid confrontation? Why is it that japan is still so much hated throughout china and korea?

In 1970 our chancellor Willy Brandt, knelt down infront of a monument to the warsaw ghetto uprising, expressing deep shame for what was done to poland and the jews in general. THIS little gesture helped, to overcome the tensions that still existed. He even got the peace noble price 1971.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ft6ueMkE04

Do you think it is possible that someday, a japanese prime minister will visit china and KNEEL down, to express shame (in the name of the japanese public) for the commited atrocities? To apologize for past crimes? I don't think such a thing will EVER happen, unless you change your nationalistic, self centred mentality.

We in germany have learned our lesson. You in japan have not. You're still way too self centred. You don't really accept others within your homogenous society. Even the UN has critisized Japan for these things. You're still way to nationalistic.

I find it important that also things like this are discussed in this thread. Japanese culture is interesting and fascinating. Yes. But the xenophobia, racim and nationalism are also a result of that culture and have to be discussed. Please don't feel offended noraemon, it's great if you are different then that. But your post also confirms what i said. You don't seem to see the vast problems in your country and are rather trying to avoid them. That mentality has to change.

Last edited by -HyugaNeji-; 2009-06-12 at 15:16.
-HyugaNeji- is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 15:15   Link #5
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Statistics of the nationality of the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime are being announced by the police.
The problem is, of course, that most crime in Japan is still being committed by "native Japanese citizens" .... the police and the media simply over-focus on "foreigner crime" to make it appear that problems mostly come from outsiders. Even citizens who are third generation descendants of immigrants are characterized as "foreigners" by the police and media when suspected of a crime.

Many Japanese are fairly innocent about outsiders and 95% of what some might call "racism" is innocent curiosity of the unknown or stereotype myth easily dispelled. But there's a xenophobic and unpleasant nationalist strain in the institutions of authority and in groups of influence. If there weren't, Japanese wouldn't have to fight over history textbook content or tolerate the "black vans with loudspeakers" from the extreme rightwing, they wouldn't be fighting over trying to get their children registered in the Name Registry, foreigners wouldn't be detained for not having their papers with them while taking the garbage out in the morning.

All I'm really saying is that open-minded people in Japan need to be vigilant against those who'd like to return to the "old days of authoritarianism" and those who do mistreat outsiders. Noraemon is right in that Japan is "getting better" in some ways... but that in turn creates resistance to change by the metaphorical equivalent of the "old southern boys" faction in Japan (as HyugaNegi points out). People in every country have some version of this cultural/nationalistic battle - some worse, some better.
__________________
Vexx is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 19:29   Link #6
noraemon
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: japan
>>-HyugaNeji-
>>Vexx

Statistics of the nationality of the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime are being announced by the police.

According to these statistics, there are very many crimes of a Chinese and the Korean.
Therefore a Chinese and a Korean are disliked by a Japanese.
Certainly, the crime that the Japanese commits in Japan is more abundant.
However, it is a matter of course.Because there are a lot of Japanese population in Japan.
A Chinese and a Korean have very high crime rate in the a population of ratio.

I did not have that I watched a restaurant and the hotel which did not permit a foreigner in Japan and have not heard it either.
I think that your recognition is wrong.

As for the problem of a Korean residents in Japan, a root is very deep.They say forcible escort, but it is a lie.
The Japanese Government makes a law to prohibit a voyage to Japan of the Korean at prewar days.
The Japanese Government lets 320,000 people go back to their own country in 1939.
Still, Korean people who enters Japan illegally one after another has increased.
And the number of illegal entrants increased very much when Japan lost war.
In addition, the number of illegal immigrants increased after Korean War had broken out.
As for the Korean residents in Japan, there are 600,000 people now, but all is almost an illegal entrant and the descendant.
However, they tell a lie that I got the compulsion taking done.
And they are going to get a special privilege in search of apology and compensation.
They are not naturalized in Japan.The reason is because it loses a special privilege.
The Korean residents in Japan has high crime rate, too.
A Japanese dislikes Korean residents in Japan from such a reason.
Korean residents in Japan pretend by a Japanese name because he or she understands it.
The Chinese residents in Japan does not give the Japanese name.
The reason is because the Chinese residents in Japan does not do the shameful act like a Korean residents in Japan.
Only a Korean residents in Japan gives the Japanese name.

Japan made apology of the war every country.
The prime minister apologizes many times to date from the past.
Japan does the compensation.
Japan teaches the right history.
Stanford University did the comparison investigation the high school history textbook of Japan, China, South Korea, the United States, and Taiwan.
About the history recognition of World War II, the Japanese textbook does not praise war and points out that it is the most inhibitory.

about Nanjing Massacre
1. It is said 300,000 slaughter, but the population of Nanjing of those days is 200,000 people.
2. Far from decreasing in slaughter, refugees return for security by the Japanese occupation, and the population increases rapidly adversely.
3. There must be a strategy record for an action by the armed forces, but there is not the strategy record attacking the people.
4. There is not the person who watched "the body as troubles" other than the witness at the Tokyo trial.
5. Though a large quantity of people were murdered, nothing has a photograph, the record of the picture.
6. Though is said that a large quantity of people were murdered, nobody tells in those days(A story of Nanjing Massacre was given at Tokyo trial suddenly)
7. The murder that clergyman Maggie who was in Nanjing of those days watched is only one.
8. Murder by the Nanjing invasion that became clear by investigation by the international committee is only 49 cases.
9. By food distribution to the people, Japan receives even receipt and a letter of thanks from the international committee.
10.The head in the advertising construction place of a Chinese Nationalist party admits the slaughter article "Two foreigners were employed and the book that had become the evidence of the trial because of advertising construction was written".

A citizen's state to form a line in the grant place that it performed so that a Japanese army may separate the refugee and the soldier by the documentary film of Nanjing of those days comes out.
If there was slaughter, do you line up?
There is the civic line to celebrate the Chinese self-government Committee establishment for a period said that there was slaughter.
There is scenery of the boy and the girl who sounds the firecracker in front of the military police headquarters and is playing in the documentary film , too.
A lot of world News organization reported on the Nanjing capture war, too.
The greatest press pool is 80 people of Asahi newspaper. It is 70 people of Mainichi newspaper next.
It is a coverage situation in which even water doesn't leak.

It is proved that the rape of Nanjing improved by Youtube, the picture of the battle of China were the pictures which a soldier of the Chinese Nationalist Party government carried out.
A way of the Chinese execution is to shoot it from the back of the head.It is not a way of Japan.
An "Burn it up", "Kill completely", and "Deprive completely" strategy said to that the Japanese armed forces carried it out in the Nanjing capture war is that Chinese Nationalist Party went, the New York Times does it for an article.

Nanjing Massacre is Chinese political propaganda.
Please think calmly.
Japan which fought against U.S.A. does not have enough ammunition and the fuel performing a massacre.
How did the Japanese armed forces is process the corpse of 300,000?
If the Japanese armed forces leave the corpse, an epidemic spreads.
Where would the remains of 300,000 disappear?
noraemon is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 19:43   Link #7
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
Is a Japanese famous for xenophobia?
I was shocked.
A Japanese is not xenophobia as far as I know it.
The Japanese is a curious, generous national character.
Yeah Japan kinda is.
I'll answer on a general and personal note, why we may think so.

The stories some foreigners give about natives not wanting to sit next to a foreigner on a train and will go elsewhere or just stand even if there's an empty space next to them are all too true.

I've experienced that time and time again, the worse case being having 3 men turn towards my section of the train to sit, see me and then go take the seat opposite me (my jp friend was sitting there), meaning it got awfully crowded and I had lots of leg room.
Normally I'd be giddy about it, but it was so blatant that it actually hurt and I think my friend noticed since she got up and moved to where I was so it was a 2 - 3 balance instead of 1-4.

Other examples include the staring.
Now I'll admit this much, it took a long time for me to digest enough humble pie to not feel offended by the constant staring (and this was being in Tokyo of all damn places) and started making a game out of it.

If it is a child or teen aged about 16 or under = I smile.
Simply cause for many, they would have probably never seen a black person in their life so if I'm making a memory, I smile.
Sometimes the kids, babies or so will smile and wave back so their mothers have no choice but to accommodate me *laughs*
Some are happy to talk to me, some force a smile and I take that as my cue to leave.

For older men it depends.
If their glares are hostile, I return the same.
If they glance at me and then go back to their stuff, I return the glance and then tune out after, no harm done no biggy.

For older women, I'm not to bothered about really, lol. Some kinda shrink or shy away if we're standing on the metro but, I couldn't care less for some reason

The most accommodating people I've noticed and I find this terribly ironic are elderly people. They're the ones with the memories of the war and what the 'evil gaijin' did to them, but they're the ones who have approached me on buses, trains, talked, smiled and so on.

Another is location.
Those in Kyoto (maybe they're used to gaijin and thus don't mind bugging us) and Shikoku, especially in Shikoku were pretty awesome. I don't think I'll forget speaking to an elderly lady (70's or so?) in Japanese while we were waiting for the bus for almost 15mins (kinda had a limited service) - but she was so nice

Those in Tokyo perhaps are like those in London (so I hear, apparently we're 'cold') - have less time for themselves, always rushing around and generally kinda hostile, lol.

But yeah noraemon, the Xenaphobia aspect is all too real.
Most Japanese are simply curious and don't mean harm, but they are also afraid.
If we don't conform to stereotypes, as Vexx called it 'they're like a deer stuck in headlights'
They feel confused and awkward and generally afraid and I break all stereotypes just by being me.
(Black, but ha ha! I'm not American or directly from an African country!)
I can read kanji at intermediate level, but have been here less than 1 year (so far)
They look at me and kinda have a serious 'doshiyou' moment, lol

So things are getting better, but I really really hate that Japan followed their master (America) and implemented the fingerprint ID system in Narita Airport (and the rest) to "fight against terrorism", in November 2007.
Only America and Japan have this on a wide scale for international travel.
America did it cause of 9/11 and lots of paranoia after that (inlcuding the bastard 'puffer machines' that I'd just like to ram a bulldozer over)
UK did it cause London got attacked on July 2005, but it is for domestic travel only. (For Brits who didn't know, the new T5 has these implemented now, I participated as a 'test traveller' before they opened it to the public.)
Japan has never had a terrorist attack from a foreign party in recent history, what's going on here?

The thing is America "say" that when you leave the country, they will erase your fingerprint data.
Japan however, will keep all foreigners fingerprint data (biometric data) for life.
Forever.
The Japanese immigration have my biometric data now and even if I leave or stay here, it'll never disappear.
That to me, doesn't really show a better tolerance for foreigners. It's almost to say that terrorists in Japan cannot be actual Japanese natives which again, I can only laugh bitterly at the irony, the BBC link above will explain why.

So there are many, many things and examples and I have many, many stories, but overall it isn't too bad. ^^
If you come to Japan as a tourist, you'll have the most magical, wonderful time of your life.
I'm speaking as someone who's been here a while, so the story is a little different sad to say.

But that doesn’t stop me wanting to live here for many years.
All it is, is a case of positive exposure and more foreigners doing and acting in a good way and breaking common stereotypes to help dispel more and more mystery that the Japanese kinda cling to out of uncertainty.
It’s kinda my current ‘occupation’ I believe, hee hee.
*points to her profile ‘about me’ section*
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia

Last edited by Mystique; 2009-06-12 at 20:07.
Mystique is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 19:55   Link #8
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
And we see why its so difficult to sort through the facts...

I'll stick to the "Japan today" part

Quote:
I did not have that I watched a restaurant and the hotel which did not permit a foreigner in Japan and have not heard it either.
I think that your recognition is wrong.
Some onsens and some restaurants, hotels, and apartments have "no gajin" signs. Usually the reason is that they've had poor prior experience with foreigners (such as the famous court trial involving an onsen who had put up the sign after having terrible problems with Russian Sailors misbehaving) or they feel like their other customers are just having their 'wa' disrupted too badly.

It is relatively rare so its not surprising if you haven't noticed it yourself. Other aspects, Mystique has written of and personally experienced. Hell, *I* get that in Chinatown, San Francisco in some parts (where I'm the only white guy on the street; my wife who is Japanese-American loves blending in while I stick out). A friend of mine who lives in Japan calls the "dancing bear" syndrome... no matter how many years you're there, they're amazed you can use chopsticks, they're frightened when you speak Japanese, and you just make them nervous because you're different. You simply have to take on the task of being "ambassador" for outsiders and try to make them comfortable.

Quote:
A Chinese and a Korean have very high crime rate in the a population of ratio.
That's a very interesting way to skew the problem... aren't you concerned about *any* crime? If 10 robberies occur and eight of them were committed by Japanese and two by Koreans... do you spend a lot of resources focusing on the Korean community? That isn't a terribly rational way to allocate resources.

Now, ILLEGAL immigration is a real problem and naturally illegal immigrants will tend to come from nearby nations (china, korea) and be economically disadvantaged (which tends to drive crime). No complaint about worrying over that.
However, if a policeman sees a Chinese and *automatically* thinks "crime committer" and that Chinese happens to be a financial analyst with all his papers and doing the right thing -- but is harassed by the policeman.....
well that's the sort of crap that happens to Legal Latinos in the US. Either way, the harassment is wrong and needs to be quelled.

Quote:
Nanking
The only thing I'll say about the Nanking mess is that the truth probably resides somewhere between what your government and history books tell you and what the other countries say: truth and hyperbole on both sides ... it was messy and atrocities abounded. Yes, Japan has officially regretted its actions but you might take a moment to read up on what Germany has done societally and culturally since WW2 and compare that to Japan. Otherwise, I don't want to get into an argument over it.

We all have different but overlapping sets of information we've acquired - so its up to the PEOPLE (folks in Japan and folks elsewhere) to compare notes and hopefully figure out where our governments and institutions are stretching the story.

((noraemon, please check your Private Messages))
__________________

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-12 at 20:20.
Vexx is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 21:20   Link #9
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Let me add this much noraemon and to any other Japanese natives reading this.

Our posts above aren't meant to drive anyone away, or bash Japan on a real harsh level.
Especially on a forum such as this where Japan = Holy land, I often find that I need to censor what I say, especially to a lot of anime fans who are starry eyed.

All countries have their problems, certain kinds prevail more than others per country, Xenophobia just happens to be one of Japan's most prevailant one.
So I've tried to toss in the good and bad in my previous post, but the truth is the truth and that's what I have to deal with (and others) if they want to live in Japan for a long period of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
A friend of mine who lives in Japan calls the "dancing bear" syndrome... no matter how many years you're there, they're amazed you can use chopsticks, they're frightened when you speak Japanese, and you just make them nervous because you're different. You simply have to take on the task of being "ambassador" for outsiders and try to make them comfortable.
Can't really say it any truer than that to be honest.
Though 'dancing bear?' ... odotteiru kuma? xD
Sounds kinda cute, but I cannot relate the imagery or reference with it

But obviously for us to be insane, crazy or just plain masochistic to go through all this, means surely it must be worth the investment of our time and energy to get more natives comfortable with foreigners and expand their minds beyond limited stereotypes towards a more globalised front.

Least for me with London as my home city and growing up in such a multi-cultural environment, I think it's worth dedicating my life to; the country, people are culture are all still pretty damn cool
*shakes her fist*
And I damn well will be able to read a novel in japanese someday, dammit! xD
Just another thousand kanji to go or so... >.>
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia

Last edited by Mystique; 2009-06-12 at 21:36.
Mystique is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 22:19   Link #10
LynnieS
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: China
I'm not sure if it is really xenophobia, to be honest. The Japanese whom I know tend to be distant to strangers, and living cheek-to-jowl with millions of people in a tightly constrained area that is Japan (not that much livable space on the islands really), it becomes more of a form of self-protection, IMHO, to segregate people into "safe" - i.e., those known - and "unknown" - i.e., everyone else. For that other "unknown" group, you pretty much have to "prove yourself" to show that you are trustworthy first being being accepted. Until then, you are going to be kept at a distance, which can last a long time - if not forever. Language-wise, there is separation in the form of keigo as well.

From personal experience, people tend to be less volunteering (of advice, help, etc.) without being asked first. To be honest, I can't remember a single instance of it (a major favor being given) happening to me yet... But for friends and when asked for something that I know can be done, I had never been rejected. It can come across as being cold and impersonal, but one of my kouhei once explained it as "not wanting to intrude into someone else's business". That being an opinion of one Japanese person, people are free to take it or leave it.

There are exceptions, of course. I play arcade games at times, for example, and have had complete strangers come up and offer advice, freebies and help.

(It would not surprise me that there are Japanese who are racist (like, say, the more extreme nationalists out there )).
__________________
"If ignorance is bliss, then why aren't more people happy?" -- Misc.

Currently listening: Nadda
Currently reading: Procrastination for the win!
Currently playing: "Quest of D", "Border Break" and "Gundam Senjou no Kizuna".
Waiting for: "Shining Force Cross"!

Last edited by LynnieS; 2009-06-12 at 23:06. Reason: Added 1 clarification
LynnieS is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 22:27   Link #11
Tri-ring
The Censor Bat
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji- View Post
Of course you would say that. But the reality speaks another language. Korean minorities have to use japanese names to get jobs and to get accepted. I recently saw a documentary about the latent discrimination of koreans and the Ainu. Then you can find alot of restaurants, hotels, bars etc. with signs that say: No foreigners allowed. Or. Foreigners can only enter with japanese friends. Seriously, this open form of racism should be condemned and banned. I'm very sensitive about things like that, because i'm german. In germany we are force fed our history and confronted with EVERY atrocity commited by the Nazis in school. Schools often visit ex concentration camps to realize what our ancestors have done. We're ashamed of it. But we accepted our past. We confront it. We try to NEVER let sth. like that happen ever again. I'm angry that in japan, the past wasn't handled that way.

Japan commited countless atrocities, one of the most disturbing is the nanking massacre. Why is it, that you still try to avoid confrontation? Why is it that japan is still so much hated throughout china and korea?

In 1970 our chancellor Willy Brandt, knelt down infront of a monument to the warsaw ghetto uprising, expressing deep shame for what was done to poland and the jews in general. THIS little gesture helped, to overcome the tensions that still existed. He even got the peace noble price 1971.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ft6ueMkE04

Do you think it is possible that someday, a japanese prime minister will visit china and KNEEL down, to express shame (in the name of the japanese public) for the commited atrocities? To apologize for past crimes? I don't think such a thing will EVER happen, unless you change your nationalistic, self centred mentality.

We in germany have learned our lesson. You in japan have not. You're still way too self centred. You don't really accept others within your homogenous society. Even the UN has critisized Japan for these things. You're still way to nationalistic.

I find it important that also things like this are discussed in this thread. Japanese culture is interesting and fascinating. Yes. But the xenophobia, racim and nationalism are also a result of that culture and have to be discussed. Please don't feel offended noraemon, it's great if you are different then that. But your post also confirms what i said. You don't seem to see the vast problems in your country and are rather trying to avoid them. That mentality has to change.
First of all, Koreans or for that matter any legal immigrants do not need to "change" their names to gain a position. There are required to spell it out in Katakana or if they are considering naturalizing they are required to adopt a Kanji to represent their names but that is completely normal anywhere in the world including your country. Do you think any immigration agency anywhere around the world will accept a foreign letter only name?
Thinking the alphabet should be accepted universally is pretty much arrogant if you ask me.
Written language is as much a part of that culture as well as a function within any given society.

Here are some examples of naturalized names;
田中マルクス闘莉王
ラモス瑠偉
呂比須ワグナー
三都主アレサンドロ
(Yeah, they are all Japanese soccer players)


Quote:
I recently saw a documentary about the latent discrimination of koreans and the Ainu. Then you can find alot of restaurants, hotels, bars etc. with signs that say: No foreigners allowed.
Maybe a dozen within the whole nation but that is not what you call "ALOT".
Most probably have justified reason why such as some of them I know at restaurants in the 70's in Yokosuka and/or Yonaguni hanged those signs because sailors on shore leave completely bashed their establishment more then once.
Onsen also deny enterance to people who have Yakuza style body tatoos, discrimination?
Maybe but they care more about reputation not wanting to be associated with the shady society and most "reputable" Yakuza buy out all reservation in advance so not to create unneeded trouble to their patronage.

Kneeling down in Warsaw?
So ?
Why did he not even give a tribute at the war cemetery for the unknown ?
Why do Germany emphasize the Nazi as the problem and not Germany as a whole?
Here is a interesting comment by a Japanese blogger;
Quote:
"ヴァイツゼッカー大統領の演説に関しても、「5月8日は、ドイツの名のもとに他国に進駐したナチスから、 普通のドイツ人が『解放』された日"
Chancellor Weizsäcker made a speech stating that on May 8th, the German were "Liberated" by the ally forces from the Nazis.
What was the difference between Germans and Nazis?
How about non-Nazi combatants and/or personnels who knownly participated in the atrocities? Were they given a pardon?
Did anybody openly comeout confessing that they were actively participating and/or sympathizer of the Nazi party?
It may sound like a hair spliting arguement but it's actually the same situation on a coin trying to bury a skeleton which was hidden in the closet.

PRC also have a problem in disclosing information, Japan provided over 60% of the total ODA to PRC from normalization in the 70's up till 2008. Without it PRC would not have been able to develop to it's point today which even alot of PRC officials openly admits.
__________________

Last edited by Tri-ring; 2009-06-12 at 23:28.
Tri-ring is offline  
Old 2009-06-12, 22:30   Link #12
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
>>-HyugaNeji-
>>Vexx

Statistics of the nationality of the foreigner who comes to Japan and does the crime are being announced by the police.

According to these statistics, there are very many crimes of a Chinese and the Korean.
Therefore a Chinese and a Korean are disliked by a Japanese.
Certainly, the crime that the Japanese commits in Japan is more abundant.
However, it is a matter of course.Because there are a lot of Japanese population in Japan.
A Chinese and a Korean have very high crime rate in the a population of ratio.
Well if Japaneses dislike a nationalities base on that it is racism. Which something according to you doesn't exist in Japan .
Anyway I don't know if it is true that Korean and Chinese have higher crime per population ratio but as immigrant have difficult time in foreign country especially Japan so they might resort to crime. Or maybe there could be organized criminals from other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
I did not have that I watched a restaurant and the hotel which did not permit a foreigner in Japan and have not heard it either.
I think that your recognition is wrong.

As for the problem of a Korean residents in Japan, a root is very deep.They say forcible escort, but it is a lie.
The Japanese Government makes a law to prohibit a voyage to Japan of the Korean at prewar days.
The Japanese Government lets 320,000 people go back to their own country in 1939.
Still, Korean people who enters Japan illegally one after another has increased.
And the number of illegal entrants increased very much when Japan lost war.
In addition, the number of illegal immigrants increased after Korean War had broken out.
As for the Korean residents in Japan, there are 600,000 people now, but all is almost an illegal entrant and the descendant.
However, they tell a lie that I got the compulsion taking done.
And they are going to get a special privilege in search of apology and compensation.
They are not naturalized in Japan.The reason is because it loses a special privilege.
The Korean residents in Japan has high crime rate, too.
A Japanese dislikes Korean residents in Japan from such a reason.
Korean residents in Japan pretend by a Japanese name because he or she understands it.
The Chinese residents in Japan does not give the Japanese name.
The reason is because the Chinese residents in Japan does not do the shameful act like a Korean residents in Japan.
Only a Korean residents in Japan gives the Japanese name.
Really so all those stories of force labor or working in facotries that were in terrible conditions are false.?
And this graph seems to tell different story.
Spoiler:

And only reason why some of those Koreans take Japanese name is to avoid persecution from the Japanese. Seriously I don't know how you could deny some of those facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
Japan made apology of the war every country.
The prime minister apologizes many times to date from the past.
Japan does the compensation.
Japan teaches the right history.
Stanford University did the comparison investigation the high school history textbook of Japan, China, South Korea, the United States, and Taiwan.
About the history recognition of World War II, the Japanese textbook does not praise war and points out that it is the most inhibitory.
And yet your freaking prime minister still goes to the grave of the Japanese soldiers and duchebag like Ishihara is still in office. Japan needs to show that they are truly sorry so far their word has not match their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
about Nanjing Massacre
1. It is said 300,000 slaughter, but the population of Nanjing of those days is 200,000 people.
2. Far from decreasing in slaughter, refugees return for security by the Japanese occupation, and the population increases rapidly adversely.
3. There must be a strategy record for an action by the armed forces, but there is not the strategy record attacking the people.
4. There is not the person who watched "the body as troubles" other than the witness at the Tokyo trial.
5. Though a large quantity of people were murdered, nothing has a photograph, the record of the picture.
6. Though is said that a large quantity of people were murdered, nobody tells in those days(A story of Nanjing Massacre was given at Tokyo trial suddenly)
7. The murder that clergyman Maggie who was in Nanjing of those days watched is only one.
8. Murder by the Nanjing invasion that became clear by investigation by the international committee is only 49 cases.
9. By food distribution to the people, Japan receives even receipt and a letter of thanks from the international committee.
10.The head in the advertising construction place of a Chinese Nationalist party admits the slaughter article "Two foreigners were employed and the book that had become the evidence of the trial because of advertising construction was written".

A citizen's state to form a line in the grant place that it performed so that a Japanese army may separate the refugee and the soldier by the documentary film of Nanjing of those days comes out.
If there was slaughter, do you line up?
There is the civic line to celebrate the Chinese self-government Committee establishment for a period said that there was slaughter.
There is scenery of the boy and the girl who sounds the firecracker in front of the military police headquarters and is playing in the documentary film , too.
A lot of world News organization reported on the Nanjing capture war, too.
The greatest press pool is 80 people of Asahi newspaper. It is 70 people of Mainichi newspaper next.
It is a coverage situation in which even water doesn't leak.

It is proved that the rape of Nanjing improved by Youtube, the picture of the battle of China were the pictures which a soldier of the Chinese Nationalist Party government carried out.
A way of the Chinese execution is to shoot it from the back of the head.It is not a way of Japan.
An "Burn it up", "Kill completely", and "Deprive completely" strategy said to that the Japanese armed forces carried it out in the Nanjing capture war is that Chinese Nationalist Party went, the New York Times does it for an article.

Nanjing Massacre is Chinese political propaganda.
Please think calmly.
Japan which fought against U.S.A. does not have enough ammunition and the fuel performing a massacre.
How did the Japanese armed forces is process the corpse of 300,000?
If the Japanese armed forces leave the corpse, an epidemic spreads.
Where would the remains of 300,000 disappear?
Are you actually trying to deny/soften the truth about Rape of Nanjing? Wow are you kidding me? You know I don't see lot of Germans trying to deny or soften holocaust, what you are doing is bad as those holocaust denial.

You know I like Japan, I think the culture overall is interesting and cool as well. But my god sometimes reading and hearing post like you wrote just makes me angry and make me feel hatred toward Japan even I know it is wrong to hate a country.
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is online now  
Old 2009-06-13, 00:03   Link #13
Claies
Good-Natured Asshole.
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
*snip*
The death toll of 300,000 would include a much larger area around the city of Nanjing, the countryside surrounding and connecting to it, and so forth. That raises the population of the affected region to 535,000 to 635,000. Common sense would show that the Japanese troops involved would not have stopped their madness at the city's borders.

They need not use ammunition. Civilians have been used for bayonet target practice. The massacre is also not systematic - the higher-ups simply lost control of the men involved, in a large scale. Your country's inability to take responsibility has stemmed from this fact - that it ostensibly wasn't their fault.

Nevertheless, the problem is not in the numbers. That's now a statistic, it doesn't matter. Innocent blood has flowed, regardless of how many liters there have been. The fact is that the massacre itself did take place, and the Japanese at large have so far not openly acknowledged of the occurrence. Haggling over numbers is dodging the issue and failing to recognize the real problem at hand.
Claies is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 00:16   Link #14
Tri-ring
The Censor Bat
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claies View Post
The death toll of 300,000 would include a much larger area around the city of Nanjing, the countryside surrounding and connecting to it, and so forth. That raises the population of the affected region to 535,000 to 635,000. Common sense would show that the Japanese troops involved would not have stopped their madness at the city's borders.

They need not use ammunition. Civilians have been used for bayonet target practice. The massacre is also not systematic - the higher-ups simply lost control of the soldiers involved, in a large scale.

Nevertheless, the problem is not in the numbers. That's now a statistic, it doesn't matter. Innocent blood has flowed, regardless of how many liters there have been. The fact is that the massacre itself did take place, and the Japanese at large have so far not openly acknowledged of the occurrence. Haggling over numbers is dodging the issue and failing to recognize the real issue.
Killing that many would not have been possible within the said time since the killing would need to be more efficient then gas chambers utilized at Auschwitz.
Really, if you honestly think numbers didn't count then don't try to inflate the already inprobable count.
ROC started with 100,000 which already had problems then such as where are the dead bodies.
I also suggest getting the so called common sense checked since troops nomally do not want to waste ammunition within enemy territory for obvious reasons.
It was in a battle zone.

There was a massive battle before the Japanese entered Nanking, Nanking was HQ for the ROC government.
__________________
Tri-ring is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 00:29   Link #15
Claies
Good-Natured Asshole.
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Killing that many would not have been possible within the said time since the killing would need to be more efficient then gas chambers utilized at Auschwitz.
Really, if you honestly think numbers didn't count then don't try to inflate the already inprobable count.
ROC started with 100,000 which already had problems then such as where are the dead bodies.
I also suggest getting the so called common sense checked since troops nomally do not want to waste ammunition within enemy territory for obvious reasons.
It was in a battle zone.

There was a massive battle before the Japanese entered Nanking, Nanking was HQ for the ROC government.
Gas chambers are different. They are run like a machine, with a set staff working in one camp, definitely less than the amount of troops sitting in Nanjing. Nanjing is occupation troops conducting wanton killing as they pleased.

Also, noraemon claimed that the Japanese could not have mustered the ammunition because they were fighting the United States. The massacre happened in December 1937, the weeks after the Japanese took the city. The massacre lasted 6 weeks. The United States was not involved until the Pearl Harbor bombing in December 1941.

But that wasn't my message. It was: a lot of people died because Japan invaded. And people didn't like being told this because a bunch of morons on both sides got over their heads in the 50s through the 70s and can't keep their records straight. At least nobody can fabricate that an invasion took place, and that civilians died by the hundreds of thousands. Numbers don't bloody matter. They've been a statistic ever since the war happened.
Claies is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 00:30   Link #16
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Okay.. you guys are seriously derailing this thread with a little "fact/trivia" war that seems to be spiraling away from the big picture of that tragedy. Can we take the Nanking affair off to its own thread if ya'll feel compelled to fight over it?

Terrible things happened in Nanking -- hopefully everyone can agree on that, but a debate on it could fill books even if everyone stayed civil in discussing it.
__________________

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-13 at 00:37. Reason: actually, thanks Claies and Tri-ring...
Vexx is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 00:39   Link #17
noraemon
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
I've experienced that time and time again, the worse case being having 3 men turn towards my section of the train to sit, see me and then go take the seat opposite me (my jp friend was sitting there), meaning it got awfully crowded and I had lots of leg room.
I apologize as a Japanese.
I am sorry very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Other examples include the staring.
I think that it is natural that You feel the unpleasantness.
However, I do not think that the Japanese had the ulterior motive.
The black person might have been unusual. I think that it is not controlled curiosity, and the Japanese has stared at you.
But I am mysterious because there are many black people in Tokyo.・・・I can understand that it is a local city, but
I do not think that the Japanese is openhearted.
However, the Japanese does not obstruct a foreigner.
It takes time a little till Japanese is openhearted.
A Japanese may be to be shy.It may be to be a timid person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
So things are getting better, but I really really hate that Japan followed their master (America) and implemented the fingerprint ID system in Narita Airport (and the rest) to "fight against terrorism", in November 2007.
The reason why the Japanese customhouse are severe thinks that there is a North Korean problem.

The Japanese master is U.S.A.I feel some unpleasantness in this expression.

I wish that you do not dislike Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Usually the reason is that they've had poor prior experience with foreigners (such as the famous court trial involving an onsen who had put up the sign after having terrible problems with Russian Sailors misbehaving) or they feel like their other customers are just having their 'wa' disrupted too badly.
There was a problem of refusing "the public bath(sentou/銭湯)" to the Russian.
This problem happened because the Russian was not accustomed to behavior and the custom in the public bath in Japan.
Afterwards, the Russian understood how to behave and the custom in the public bath in Japan.
This problem is solved now.

Japanese and foreigner's troubles occur with the difference of trifling recognition like this.
However, it solves it if talking enough.
The Japanese dislikes disarrangement of a traditional custom and manners.
So-called, it is the "wa/和".

Quote:
About a Chinese and a Korean crime
Chinese and South Korean's heinous crimes in Japan are numerous.
There is no day when Chinese and South Korean's crimes are not seen with the tv and the newspaper.
The Japanese has thought that water and safety are free for a long time.
The Japanese feels that it is a threat very much that the common sense collapses.

Quote:
About Nanjing Massacre
I do not have a mind to argue this matter here.
The reason for this problem is that it becomes the endless dispute.
If a Japanese researcher and a Chinese researcher do not do an argument and investigation jointly, the answer does not appear.

I read Private Messages.
I understood.
Thank you very much.
noraemon is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 01:01   Link #18
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Okay.. you guys are seriously derailing this thread with a little "fact/trivia" war that seems to be spiraling away from the big picture of that tragedy. Can we take the Nanking affair off to its own thread if ya'll feel compelled to fight over it?

Terrible things happened in Nanking -- hopefully everyone can agree on that, but a debate on it could fill books even if everyone stayed civil in discussing it.
No. We don't need a thread on it, as evident by the discussion as it has unfolded already.

Simply put - WW2 was a very long time ago. There's a "handful" of people who were alive when it happened, other than that it's a tragic event that happened in the history books. Just like no amount of apologizing has "redeemed" America for slavery, or Germany for its crimes, or numerous other countries for theirs, no amount of discussion on these forums will provide much fruit either.

Bad things happened. Instead of playing the blame game, accept what happened, work towards preventing it from happening again, and find some common ground with your neighbors to strengthen your bonds. You'll find that people really aren't that different once you get to know them a little bit.

So, lets get back to the topic of this thread, which is discussion about Japanese culture.
__________________
Solace is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 02:11   Link #19
-HyugaNeji-
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
No. We don't need a thread on it, as evident by the discussion as it has unfolded already.

Simply put - WW2 was a very long time ago. There's a "handful" of people who were alive when it happened, other than that it's a tragic event that happened in the history books. Just like no amount of apologizing has "redeemed" America for slavery, or Germany for its crimes, or numerous other countries for theirs, no amount of discussion on these forums will provide much fruit either.

Bad things happened. Instead of playing the blame game, accept what happened, work towards preventing it from happening again, and find some common ground with your neighbors to strengthen your bonds. You'll find that people really aren't that different once you get to know them a little bit.

So, lets get back to the topic of this thread, which is discussion about Japanese culture.
So, the discussion wasn't about a part of japanese culture? Does this thread only exist to talk about Origami, japanese Festivals, Samurai or Martial Arts? Seriously, talking about this serious issue is an essential thing for me, because i want to understand japanese culture. I don't want to just consume parts of it and let the unpleasent things aside.

I want to know, WHY the japanese seem SO uneducated about the things we discussed here. Seriously, i find it higly disturbing, when i read, that japaneses seem to be "curious" about foreigners, as if they are from another planet. Why is it, that japan is so homogenous? Xenophobia is the perfect word, because i want to KNOW why they are so "shy" before foreigners, or why they seem to fear them??? Helloooo??? It's the 21st century, we live in a globalized world, how come that japan is still so isolated? (except the economy) What are the reasons?
-HyugaNeji- is offline  
Old 2009-06-13, 07:40   Link #20
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by noraemon View Post
Chinese and South Korean's heinous crimes in Japan are numerous.
There is no day when Chinese and South Korean's crimes are not seen with the tv and the newspaper.
The Japanese has thought that water and safety are free for a long time.
The Japanese feels that it is a threat very much that the common sense collapses.
Can you explain to me what does that mean? What do Chinese and Koreans have anything do with water and Japanese common sense? And can you provide me evidences of those crimes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
No. We don't need a thread on it, as evident by the discussion as it has unfolded already.

Simply put - WW2 was a very long time ago.
There's a "handful" of people who were alive when it happened, other than that it's a tragic event that happened in the history books. Just like no amount of apologizing has "redeemed" America for slavery, or Germany for its crimes, or numerous other countries for theirs, no amount of discussion on these forums will provide much fruit either.

Bad things happened. Instead of playing the blame game, accept what happened, work towards preventing it from happening again, and find some common ground with your neighbors to strengthen your bonds. You'll find that people really aren't that different once you get to know them a little bit.

So, lets get back to the topic of this thread, which is discussion about Japanese culture.
Not that long ago, my grandparents they are still alive( and my grandma is right across the living room from me right now) and they lived during the Japanese occupation of Korea.
Also I would think talking about what Japanese during the war and some of the problems in their current society is related to their culture. This isn't a blame game we all know what happened. I would think discussing about this is a step for East Asians to understand each other and be more accepting to each other.
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.