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View Poll Results: Free access to paternity test?
I think men should have a free access to it. 18 78.26%
I think it's good to not allow it to individuals without a legal proceedings 4 17.39%
I have another opinion (please post your thoughts if you can) 1 4.35%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-06-11, 19:43   Link #1
Narona
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What do you think of the free access to paternity test?

I watched a TV program tonight, and durintg the first part of the program, there were talking about the paternity test, and in which conditions people can use it.

In France, it doesn't work like in the USA. If i understood it correctly (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong), there is a free access to it in some States of the USA. They said that they estimated that at least (because it's hard to estimate the real number) 1 baby out of 30 (again correct it if it's not true) was not from the one who is supposed to be the real father (in most of the case, the husband in a couple).

Then they talked about how it is in France, I already know it but this debate made me thought about it deeply, there's no free access to paternity test without starting legal proceedings (and even so, it's not that simple) or in "special cases" like when there is legal investigation. Two people who were debating were saying that it is better to keep the peace in the couples by not allowing the test. So even if a man has a doubt, he should just.... forget it ??? (I guess).

I understand that a man could be wrong and assume things that are false. And so it could cause problems if the baby is really from him. She might feel bad that he thought that, and it can ruin a couple. But even so it was not what they preached for. They thought it was better that way to "protect the child", by not allowing the father to know the truth even if he is not the real father.

I am not a man, but I still think it might be not right for some reasons:

- Sometimes just saying to a man that he is wrong to think something is not enough. It can also ruin a couple, because living with a doubt about something so important could be too much. I don't think that most cases would end well. So I don't really believe it can keep the peace as if the man had no doubts. A man who learns the sad truth might divorce and not recognize the child legally, but a man who has doubts can also divorce and reject, in a way or another, the kid.

- I think that if the baby is from another man, he has the right to know it and to verify it, and then to choose what to do. And as i said, I am not sure that a man who has to live his entire life with big doubts will keep peace in a family.

- I tend to think that it is very hard to hide such lies during an entire life. If the woman ever says it to somebody, who will say it to someone else ; and if the child finally learn the truth, I don't think he/she will like to know what his/her mother hid, and how many times she lied to him/her. If it happens, will the kid really accept the "it was better that way to keep the peace in the family?" as the perfect excuse, I am not sure. He might see his mother as a coward, which would not be that untrue.

- In the case that the man has doubts, I am not sure that he will take care of the kid properly if he tends to think that he/she is not his son/daughter by blood. He could even get mad at the state who refused him to verify his fatherhood. Then what could he do? He might start to mistreat the kid just because he is angry about what the state refused to him. This is not the child's fault, whatever the real father, but there are people who just get mad at innocent people when they are angry about somebody else.


That said, If I had a baby, I would feel bad if my husband had doubts about me, but I would prefer to show him how much he was wrong, rather than seeing him living with his doubts about me, and about our baby. On the other side, I disagree with the women who don't take their responsibilities and hide that they were unfaithful, and impose something to their husband without him realizing it most of the time. What I despise even more is how some people seem to think it is not a major problem if a woman does that (keep in mind i don't talk about "special cases").

I would really like to have your temper, Vexx, because I really got angry for at least 2 hours about that xD

Last edited by Narona; 2009-06-11 at 22:11.
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Old 2009-06-11, 20:02   Link #2
Kusa-San
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Well I will be short : It's ridiculous and I don't understand why we can't do it freely. It's really stupid and I fond that really scandalous that a man has not the right to now the truth. What the hell is that O_o
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Old 2009-06-11, 21:11   Link #3
miroku2192
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The way I see it (I'm a guy btw), if a man has doubts about his wife (being faithful), then the two clearly weren't meant for each other to begin with. Shouldn't a marriage be about trust? I for one wouldn't marry a woman if i didn't TRUST her.

Now back to the main issue. I believe that guys should have the right to know if it comes down to such a problem. IF a guy is in such a situation, where he can not trust his wife, then he SHOULD be allowed to find out the truth. Some argue that keeping them blind will make everything peaceful, but it's not knowing the truth that will really cause the trouble. He'll be even more skeptical all the time, and the two just WON"T get along.

And as you pointed out, a child should have the right to know who his real father is too. Granted, you might want to wait until he's a bit older so it doesn't traumatize the poor child, he/she still should know. I would want to know.

But yeah, leaving the man in the darkness will only bring things to ruin faster, and on a larger scale. Imagine him finding out 20 years down the road...just try to imagine what will be racing through his mind, how his wife cheated and lied to him for over 20 years. Yeah, he'll explode and who knows what he might do.

Honestly, though...just don't put yourself into that situation >.<! Why would you cheat to begin with? IF you don't like the man, then DON"T marry him. Vice -versa as well. IF you don't like the woman, then don't marry her. If you're not ready to marry, then DON"T DO IT!!! But once you do marry, you have a responsibility to fulfill.

Sometimes the people of this society really anger me. It's simply not that hard. What happened to morals?



edit:
p.s. - HI narona! haven't talked to you in a long time :X, you doing well?

Last edited by miroku2192; 2009-06-11 at 21:26.
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:20   Link #4
Mystique
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The extreme flip side of this issue is to look at America or more specifically:
American trash chat shows.

Jerry Springer but moreover "The Murphy show"
(Worse than Springer, not like you'd believe that but it is)

Their form of entertainment is almost nothing but black women sleeping around with multiple guys and coming in to discover the 'real father'. In which you have about 2-3 guys sitting there, waiting for results and sometimes for the ‘shock’ factor, the same woman will come back for another test for her 2nd or 3rd pregnancy cause she can’t help but sleep with multiple guys within a few weeks or so.
It's disgusting and to be honest those kinda women should have their tubes snipped.
Seriously...

Whether it’s entirely made up or not isn't the point. It's the way they're portraying and enforcing this idea of:

*cheesy voice*
"Doubt your wife?!
We can solve that problem for you, it’s easy!
Just go for a paternity test and we'll 100% wipe those doubts from you!"
(Yeah, cause dodgy doctors also aren't humans who can lie also even if the actual test is accurate...)

It really should be a serious last and ultimate resort thus some kinda legal or formal procedure is needed in my opinion.
To grab a kit and DIY it, swab a few cheek cells and post off to a "clinic" doesn't really convince me of the legitimacy of all this sometimes. It's becoming too commonplace and methinks that'll be abused in itself which could cause even more problems than what occurs at present.

As for whether guys have the right to know, of course they do.
However, men raising kids that are not their own based on whether they have confronted their wives or not isn't anything new.
Some probably already know they a child or one of their kids isn’t theirs and don't trust their wife but still love the child/teen and treat them as their own regardless.

Knowing the certain truth would be to decide if the life of an innocent is (suddenly) no longer worth your time to look after. For some men, that fact is all too important, for others I've noticed, having it stated in "clear proof" makes no difference. They may sever ties with their spouses or just make peace with the doubts they had, but treat the child no different and keep the father-child relationship strong.

I guess for those kinda men, they earn my respect the most.
If a man wanted a paternity test from me and I know 100% that I've slept with no one else, I'd not grant it.
Rather I’d kick him out of the house and probably be heartbroken for them severely doubting/not trusting me, but once again it depends on the numerous factors that lead a man or a couple to consider that path.
This also includes the ‘time’ of when he wants this test.
(When the baby is a newborn, or 1, 2 or 5 years after etc…)
He could just be an insecure, cheating bastard himself, or she could be an insecure cheating bitch herself or this wouldn't surprise me.
Both could be totally irresponsible people who should be kicked out of the gene pool. -.-

It comes down to the failure of the relationship at the end of the day, but for me personally, I find it incredibly annoying and tragic when kids become a 'tool' to be discarded or gained when there's massive disputes between two "adults" who should know better *sighs*
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-06-11 at 22:34.
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:26   Link #5
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
Honestly, though...just don't put yourself into that situation >.<! Why would you cheat to begin with? IF you don't like the man, then DON"T marry him. Vice -versa as well. IF you don't like the woman, then don't marry her. If you're not ready to marry, then DON"T DO IT!!! But once you do marry, you have a responsibility to fulfill.
Well, the problem is that it can happen that people change and stop loving the one they married. What I think is that they should be honest with their husband/wife. If they really want to start a new relationship or have sex with somebody else, they should divorce or ask if their partner is "ok" (it can happen that couples freely sleep with other people while being aware and ok with it, in that case, no problem), or it becomes corrupt, mostly in the case when your husband/wife is faithful on his/her side. He believes in you and you just stab him in the back. That's unethical from my piont of view.

They might think that it is better to do it in secret, mostly when you know, "I didn't want to ruin our family, i have a son with my husband etc." ya know, that kind of excuses. But imo they don't do that to protect their family. They want to keep what they already possess (a husband, children, a family), while trying to get something else. They want everything.

So my conclusion would rather be: you can't always get what you want and everything you want. Just be honest en choose. If you can't resist to start a new relationship, just divorce, or accept the fact that you can't have everything without betraying the ones that you supposely cherish.

Quote:
edit:
p.s. - HI narona! haven't talked to you in a long time :X, you doing well?
I'm doing fine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique
As for whether guys have the right to know, of course they do.
However, men raising kids that are not their own based on whether they have confronted their wives or not isn't anything new.
Some probably already know they a child or one of their kids isn’t theirs and don't trust their wife but still love the child/teen and treat them as their own regardless.

Knowing the certain truth would be to decide if the life of an innocent is (suddenly) no longer worth your time to look after. For some men, that fact is all too important, for others I've noticed, having it stated in "clear proof" makes no difference. They may sever ties with their spouses or just make peace with the doubts they had, but treat the child no different and keep the father-child relationship strong.

I guess for those kinda men, they earn my respect the most
I didn't say that every men would reject the kid. But at least, they could divorce if they want (if they feel that they can't live with somebody who cheated and on him/her and lied) and still care for the kid who is an innocent individual.

I think they should know. Personal opinion: I try to imagine if I was a man who discovered that I my wife cheated on me and did a kid with another man, while forcing me, in a way, to take care of him.

I don't think i would blame the kid at all, but i would feel destroyed about what my wife did and about the time it took me to learn the truth, it could be many years. I could not forgive her, not at all. So i prefer to know, the sooner the better, so I could divorce and start something new myself (while still caring for "my" kid)

The kid should also have the right to know who was his true father/mother. In the cases i've seen from another TV program, lots of people wants to meet their biological parents once they learn the truth, even if their feelings for their legal parents don't change.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-06-11 at 23:00.
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:39   Link #6
Circular Logic
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Well, as far as I can see, if you want a paternity test, fine. But I don't see any real reason why the state should be paying for it. If you're that suspicious, why not just pay for it yourself? Furthermore, having the state fund it simply legitimises marital suspicion - after all, you can take the test without your partner's permission, for free! Why not do it anyway, just in case?
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:42   Link #7
Throne Invader
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I think guys should have access to the paternity test. Guys do have the right to know. It's like knowing if your girlfriend is cheating on you or not but then that isn't always the case. 9 months is a long time. You could break up with someone then get another guy. So, it really depends.
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Old 2009-06-12, 06:53   Link #8
Kafriel
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Access should be free, after all the test isn't forced onto people, they can choose to ignore it if they want to. Personally, I wouldn't doubt my wife (well,if I had one...) but I think knowing about it would be a good thing anyway. However, I don't know the nature and precision rate of this test, so I'll be defensive about it since mistaken results could do serious damage to a good family (e.g. the wife is honest about it and the father's confused with the results, so one of the two would eventually snap). Then again, tests were made with specific thoughts and purposes in mind, it's not like someone was bored today so they said "oh hey let's make a paternity test, it's gonna be awesome!", so I'll consider the fact that others have given this more thought than we have.
P.S: a true father forgets and forgives, the child would still be his if he was the one who raised it,no? Can't stick to technicalities~
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Old 2009-06-12, 10:04   Link #9
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I didn't say that every men would reject the kid. But at least, they could divorce if they want (if they feel that they can't live with somebody who cheated and on him/her and lied) and still care for the kid who is an innocent individual.

I think they should know. Personal opinion: I try to imagine if I was a man who discovered that I my wife cheated on me and did a kid with another man, while forcing me, in a way, to take care of him.

I don't think i would blame the kid at all, but i would feel destroyed about what my wife did and about the time it took me to learn the truth, it could be many years. I could not forgive her, not at all. So i prefer to know, the sooner the better, so I could divorce and start something new myself (while still caring for "my" kid)
I didn't make my post in direct response to your post, I merely tossed in my 2 pence with this deal of paternity tests and what I've thought about them over the last few years.
Thus it's not a direct response to you, settle down already.
Quote:
The kid should also have the right to know who was his true father/mother. In the cases i've seen from another TV program, lots of people wants to meet their biological parents once they learn the truth, even if their feelings for their legal parents don't change.
Now this I will reply in general and in response to you.
As for the kid should have a right to know, this isn't quite the same as an adoption deal you know.
To be logical and sensible, what this would benefit in at most is family medical history. What could this child have picked up that is part of the gene pool from his biological father, in the case that health problems arise.

However, to discover that the father you thought was your father and who you consider to be your father (let's say they're in their teens now) isn't your "father", on the basis that your mother cheated - its painful, emotionally shattering, disillusional and destructive.

To say 'honesty is the best policy' sometimes isn't.
Sometimes the truth is 10x more destructive than the lie that had been lived unaware by those involved and yes while all facts have been exposed, the damage was so great that neither father or child or even the family can recover, ever.
For the father, he can perhaps just about digest that piece of news and deal with his pain.
For the child or teen; if the man who has raised them well as their father is the world to that kid, short of it being bloody obvious genetically that something doesn't quite add up here, there's no need for that kid to know.
For the mother (I assume) to confess this may, ideally should be done on an "adult to young adult" level once the child has grown up (aged 18+) fairly established themselves in life and understands more that things in life aren't so black and white;
(You find the illusion broken and the truth revealed that your parents bein all too human too and prone to mistakes just as you are)
But to break this down to a younger person such as:

Your father... isn't your biological father. He has raised you as his son but he's not your "real dad".
Kid: Then who's my real dad? What happened to him?

Chances are the woman no longer keeps in touch or even has a clue about the whereabouts of said man, chances are it was a stupid one night stand, chances are she could have been raped/forced and has kept it hidden in shame and secret from everyone.
There are so many scenarios, none of them are gonna be positive, so that just how the hell would letting the kid know any of these benefit them in the long run, honestly...

Thus why I think they should be an extreme last resort to use, at least, I don't like the idea of them becoming all too commonplace which then gets wired into the minds of men as the first thing to consider anytime there's a weak moment in a relationship or if he's overly insecure.
I'd say confront your spouse and they'll probably confess and breakdown and tell you straight out but I suppose that wouldn't erase the 'doubt'.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-06-12 at 10:15.
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Old 2009-06-12, 20:25   Link #10
Jinto
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I guess my point of view lies somewhere between miroku2192's and Mystique's.
If a paternity test is neccessary to begin with, the trust in a relationship is fundamentally hurt in a bilateral way.
So paternity tests solve only one question, the materialistic question who has to pay for a child. But its not a humanitarian question.
If there is a reason to mistrust your partner you can find out through other means too.
But thats not the point here. If you give your partner the feeling he/she can even tell you about such a matter honestly and state their reason both may find a solution that does not break them up. Imo thats not such an unforgivable thing.
And the child is the last one who should be hurt in the process. Because the child is innocent in the whole matter.
I've never been in such a situation, so maybe I am not allowed to make such a statement, but in general I'ld support the child the same way as if it was my own (thats my humanitarian attitude).

Last edited by Jinto; 2009-06-13 at 07:59.
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Old 2009-06-12, 21:29   Link #11
Shay
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There shouldn't even be a debate. Of course a man should have the right to know if his child is his own. It is ridiculous to even question the right. I honestly never knew this existed. Typical of the French though!

We're lucky to have such science; In ancient times the childs life would be in danger over such thoughts! Ghengis Khan springs to mind!

And to be fair, if a woman denies a paternity test then you gotta ask yourself why? Pride? Fuck pride! If she has nothing to hide then she has noting to fear. It is a simple process to answer an important question!

And too right expenses palys a vital part! I should know, I have four month old myself. Baby's are expensive. Do you honestly think I would pay for a house in which there is a cott, pram, high chair, changer, moses basket, play pen, bumper, clothes, nappies, milk, etc if he was not mine?
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:33   Link #12
cheyannew
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Semantics about trust in a relationship aside, if it helps clear up paternity issues (Because I am sorry, there are some manipulative lying women in the world who play the whole "Of COURSE it's yours!" card too often IMO), why should there be any sort of roadblock?

Not that my husband would ever need to do this, but I think men should have the option, since it could mean "life or death" for them (aka if they're going to be responsible for a child for 18 years or whatever).

That being said, I know several men who've had them done, it's proven they are NOT the father and they STILL choose to help raise the children, or remain in their lives, even if it did split the relationship (and the test would not have been done in the first place were there not a shred of doubt).

But knowing one's lineage is important for health concerns, as well as peace of mind.

Personally? I should think there would not be a call for this; but then again, I have a different mindset than a good chunk of my generation, I guess... I could not fathom a situation where I would not know who the father of my children is, as I am vehemently opposed to cheating on one's mate (married or not).

I'm merely of the opinion that the option should exist, despite it hopefully not being needed.
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:36   Link #13
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I am for it being available. A man doesn't have to be forced to raise a child that isn't his.
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Old 2009-06-13, 00:38   Link #14
Irenicus
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So on one hand in some of the US states, paternity tests are state-subsidized, while on the other hand in France it's such a big deal that you have to practically start the divorce proceedings for all intents and purposes to even get it?

Talk about extremes.

The way I see it, it's a personal decision, not a medical issue. Though the added burden is probably very small, I don't see why any state has to subsidize it. On the other hand, preventing access directly or by making it too hard to get is like having your government decide your relationship issues for you. Cue obligatory you-have-no-business-here-Mr-President statement.

But that's the general social angle. More humanly speaking, I don't really have much credibility to be talking about relationships like I'm a how-to columnist, but I think if it comes to the point of wanting to do such tests then the relationship has serious issues. And, well, even starting the procedure regardless of results will hurt the child. Your spouse doubts you? You're an adult, you can handle it. Maybe it's even your fault you cheater. Your parent doubts you? Chances are you are going to feel like you're not welcome, that you are a mistake and that's going to cause some irreparable rifts between the two of you even if the results come clean.

So people probably should think very carefully before taking one.

Now, that's existing, long-term relationships talking. The whole "take responsibility for YOUR child! (or is it?)" thing is another, less painful, more obviously useful use of the test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shay View Post
We're lucky to have such science; In ancient times the childs life would be in danger over such thoughts! Ghengis Khan springs to mind!
Actually, Jochi, first son of Genghis, was widely considered to have a disputed paternity (Genghis' abducted wife returned with a baby). Yet Genghis, if we are to believe what the Mongols recorded about themselves, always treated him well enough as the first son.

Of course, in the end Jochi did not inherit the Great Khan title, and that doubt played a role, but neither did Chagatai, the second son, whose paternity was not really in doubt. Jochi's own descendants were still recognized as khans in their own right.

Bloodlines in the strictest sense of the word also had surprisingly little meaning to the Medieval Japanese, whose Daimyo families regularly adopted promising young men with no blood relations as heirs whenever the family line was in danger.

Just to point out a few things.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:06   Link #15
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No one likes being betrayed or lied to. I think it's fine to have access to it though not something the state should be paying for, there's better things to spend on than a lie test (general healthcare, education and amenities).

A child is a lot of financial and emotional investment. I think both party should know the truth before committing to it. The greater problem to the guys would not be whether the child is his or not, but the fact that he is being lied to.

It's a fickle issue, people outside of the issue would often play it down until it occur to them personally.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:10   Link #16
miroku2192
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Again i see you guys bringing up the argument that it hurts the kid who is in his teens to find out that his father isn't his real father...

No. If you wait even longer before you tell him, or before he finds out, that'll lead to even more destruction. Think of all the years of deceit. He'll be thinking about how all those years his mother was just that whore, and perhaps she is not the person she thinks she's supposed to be. I think if a child is to know, he/she is to know early on in life.

Of course it depends on the type of kid...you've got the more mature ones who come to accept things as they should be...and the many other types.

Ultimately though...like i said earlier, guys should be given right to do the check up. It just works for everyone in the long run.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:26   Link #17
Zippicus
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I'm not 100% clear on the question here.

Should anyone be able to get a free paternity test ? no.
Should paternity tests be available to anyone for any reason ? yes.
Should people be made to take a paternity test against their will ? probably no.
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Old 2009-06-13, 01:39   Link #18
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
No. If you wait even longer before you tell him, or before he finds out, that'll lead to even more destruction. Think of all the years of deceit. He'll be thinking about how all those years his mother was just that whore, and perhaps she is not the person she thinks she's supposed to be. I think if a child is to know, he/she is to know early on in life.
Trust me, all else equal (people are different), a teenager will take such knowledge very badly compared to an adult. An adult's a well-formed person. Yes, it hurts; yes, it's years of "deceit," but you have your own life, you know who you are. You can just move on, go to work the next day, hug your beloved a little closer and hopes nothing like that will happen to you two. To many adults cheating is not always "whoring," but a mistake or a momentary slip. You can be far more understanding with all the experiences that come with age and relationships that you go through.

A teenager, on the other hand...

Do I really have to spell it out?


But I wasn't denying anyone the right to do it either, so you're attacking a nonexistent dispute here in my case.
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Old 2009-06-13, 06:20   Link #19
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
Again i see you guys bringing up the argument that it hurts the kid who is in his teens to find out that his father isn't his real father...

No. If you wait even longer before you tell him, or before he finds out, that'll lead to even more destruction. Think of all the years of deceit. He'll be thinking about how all those years his mother was just that whore, and perhaps she is not the person she thinks she's supposed to be. I think if a child is to know, he/she is to know early on in life.

Of course it depends on the type of kid...you've got the more mature ones who come to accept things as they should be...and the many other types.

Ultimately though...like i said earlier, guys should be given right to do the check up. It just works for everyone in the long run.
I disagree and will add to what Irenicus has already said.

Thing is Miroku, the years of deceit is to the partner of the woman, not the child per se.
I stated this in my prevous post, but I will quote myself again
Quote:
However, to discover that the father you thought was your father and who you consider to be your father (let's say they're in their teens now) isn't your "father", on the basis that your mother cheated - its painful, emotionally shattering, disillusional and destructive.
Not on the basis that your mother hid the true identity of your biological father, but the shattering of the all encompassing faith a child/teen has with their parents, especially to a mother.
If both parents have done their best to raise a good child, should they find out that when 18 or so that uhh... this isn't my biological father, taking in that life shattering news won't be as deep as to a younger child. They'll be old enough legally by then to sever ties with their mother if they wish, to live independently and to persue their biological father if they wish.
But that doesn't change the fact that their parents tried their damndest to raise, nurture and love the person and give them a sense of self-worth in life.
Their memories will be filled with good times, the love given is real.
That isn't a lie and thus the deceit isn't so 'great'.

You think that the child is automatically gonna think 'whore' - well if they wanna listen to outsiders gossip or bitter, negative relatives then sure, go ahead. You assume on the black and white issue that the woman likes to screw around (there are plenty out there, I know, but it's not the be all and end all for why she may be carrying someone elses child)

But take some time to think why the whole 'your mama' jokes are imfamous and effective.
To insult someone's mother, typically is to be asking for it.
Your faith is so solid that even if she screwed up before you were born, you have the memories of your upbringing and if that and the relationship between the child and the mother is strong, chances are it'll survive the lie being exposed.

But like i said, better to do that when they have a clearer sense that life isn't so black and white and that doesn't happen while you're a teenager simply out of life experience being basic.
(Unless one is unfortunate to go through the trials of life at such a young age)
Also to inflict that knowledge that imo really is between the husband and wife is to let your child carry a seriously heavy burden that doesn't belong to them. That knowledge will worm itself into your fears, insecurities and doubts, somehow I don't think many teens would appreciate it nor be able to digest that too well.

This is speaking for the guy finding out or wanting a test 10,15 years down the line of course. As someone mentioned before, the debate with it when a baby is a newborn is less of an issue and most seem to agree that having to resort to a paternity test means the relationship is more or less on serious rocky ground but the man has 100% rights for it.
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Old 2009-06-13, 07:34   Link #20
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Now this I will reply in general and in response to you.
As for the kid should have a right to know, this isn't quite the same as an adoption deal you know.
To be logical and sensible, what this would benefit in at most is family medical history. What could this child have picked up that is part of the gene pool from his biological father, in the case that health problems arise.

However, to discover that the father you thought was your father and who you consider to be your father (let's say they're in their teens now) isn't your "father", on the basis that your mother cheated - its painful, emotionally shattering, disillusional and destructive.

To say 'honesty is the best policy' sometimes isn't.
Firstly, I was not only talking about the kid issue. *I* also care about the husband issue. It's good and all to think about the kid, but to not think at all about the one who believe he is the "father" is not right imo.

The only way i see for it to really work, is that the woman will keep it secret from her child and husband. But if the husband has a doubt, I doubt that it will stay peacefull like those people I see in that TV program said.

I still think that those women, who choose to not tell their husband, at least, are just protecting themselves in priority, not the kid. And no, I don't think it's right to let a man lives a life of lie. I am very picky over the morals issue, and while I can understand that sometimes humans fail, I don't tolerate to not take any responsibilities.

If you really love somebody, I don't see how you could hide something like that to him. Not something that important. It makes me nauseous just by thinking that a woman can lie about that to her husband.

The *lie* could work if the man doesn't have any doubts, and if the woman keeps the secret during her entire life. But I don't see it working if the man has doubts, or if the woman told the kid even later in hiw life without saying it to her husband. I don't see a lot of kid being not concerned about his "father" issue, and just decide to not say the truth to his father.

Is it good to want to protect the kid? Yes. But I still believe that a lot of women do lie to protect themselves before even thinking about the kid.
Is it right to let a man lives in a lie? Imho, not at all. And what made me angry the other night was to see some people not caring about this as if it wa snot important. A man is not a watering can and a walking wallet. She could tell him and they could decide to keep it secret from the child. They could do a paternity test and to keep it secret from the kid.

Actually, they talked about that the other night IIRC, that often, it stays a secret in the family. That's why the 1 out of 30 babies, is possibily less than the real numbers.

At least, to let the man chooses what he wants to do. He could keep it secret from the kid, but at least, divorce and start a new relationship if he wants.

Quote:
Your father... isn't your biological father. He has raised you as his son but he's not your "real dad".
Kid: Then who's my real dad? What happened to him?

Chances are the woman no longer keeps in touch or even has a clue about the whereabouts of said man, chances are it was a stupid one night stand, chances are she could have been raped/forced and has kept it hidden in shame and secret from everyone.
There are so many scenarios, none of them are gonna be positive, so that just how the hell would letting the kid know any of these benefit them in the long run, honestly...
From what I have seen in TV debates over the problem, minus the case when the mother keeps the secret during her entire life, there is little chance that no one will learn the truth someday. And again, I think about the kid, but about the husband issue too.


And in my case, I was not talking about special cases like a rape. That issue could have his own debate because at the start of the problem, it's not the woman's fault, because she didn't choose to be raped or not. So if she then lies to her husband, i see it as a mistake, not as a fault. Cheating willingly (example: one stand night) on your husband is completely different.

Quote:
Thus why I think they should be an extreme last resort to use, at least, I don't like the idea of them becoming all too commonplace which then gets wired into the minds of men as the first thing to consider anytime there's a weak moment in a relationship or if he's overly insecure.
I'd say confront your spouse and they'll probably confess and breakdown and tell you straight out but I suppose that wouldn't erase the 'doubt'.
It's not as if humans were using things always the right way. You give an example of stupid humans who use the paternity test to make TV shows in your first post (if I understood correctly). Obviously I too don't like that either.

But it's not as if humans were always using things the right way. At least here in France, for example, all the people don't use the abortion like it should be used, imo. I don't count how many times I heard guys and girls talking about that as if it wa snot important. As if it was like going to buy bread. Some of them are just not careful in their love life just because they know there is abortion if there is a problem. Do they try to avoid the problems by any means? No. And in this case, the state pays for it. And I don't think it is a right view over the abortion. It's something that was created, imo, to help people who didn't willingly made a mistake, not to make become them more lazy in their sex life.

So, abuses exist about many other things too.

And about the examples I was talking about, that other TV program covered all the cases. And from what i saw, not only the kid who were adopted want to learn things about their real father and/or mother. In most case, it's not something that can just be forgotten, even when the person is a fully grown up adult. Now maybe people react differently in other culture, but in France, it's like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
The way I see it, it's a personal decision, not a medical issue. Though the added burden is probably very small, I don't see why any state has to subsidize it. On the other hand, preventing access directly or by making it too hard to get is like having your government decide your relationship issues for you. Cue obligatory you-have-no-business-here-Mr-President statement.

But that's the general social angle. More humanly speaking, I don't really have much credibility to be talking about relationships like I'm a how-to columnist, but I think if it comes to the point of wanting to do such tests then the relationship has serious issues. And, well, even starting the procedure regardless of results will hurt the child. Your spouse doubts you? You're an adult, you can handle it. Maybe it's even your fault you cheater. Your parent doubts you? Chances are you are going to feel like you're not welcome, that you are a mistake and that's going to cause some irreparable rifts between the two of you even if the results come clean.

So people probably should think very carefully before taking one.

Now, that's existing, long-term relationships talking. The whole "take responsibility for YOUR child! (or is it?)" thing is another, less painful, more obviously useful use of the test.
I don't see the majority of families living that peacefully with such a doubt. So thinking that not doing the paternity test will lead to a peacefull life and not a divorce is, imo, idiotic. (it's not what you said, I don't attack you over this, I expose my personal pov over the issue)

Yes, as a woman, I would feel bad if my husband says that to me, but still in my case it would be HIS problem to assume wrong thing and possibily be over jaelous, since I am not the kind of person who will cheat on him. My solution would be to do the paternity test, and to then says to him that he was the one who was wrong, and that he has to change now. In this case, there would be no doubt anymore, and even if it could cause problem, we could start to try to get over it with clean and healthly basis. And I doubt that kind of problem could happen twice.

As I see it, one of the best ways to make a relationship works is to be honest and to build something on clean basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
No one likes being betrayed or lied to. I think it's fine to have access to it though not something the state should be paying for, there's better things to spend on than a lie test (general healthcare, education and amenities).

A child is a lot of financial and emotional investment. I think both party should know the truth before committing to it. The greater problem to the guys would not be whether the child is his or not, but the fact that he is being lied to.

It's a fickle issue, people outside of the issue would often play it down until it occur to them personally.
I don't know how it is in the USA, but I never said that the paternity test should be paid by the state.

I am a woman, but I care a lot over the father issue. I am not ok to let the "father" (who is not the real father) living a lie.

I also gave my personal opinion above, I would not refuse to do a paternity test if my husband asks me that. To let him saw that he was wrong about me is, imo, the best way to make him stop to doubt me. Maybe it would not be that easy, but as I say, I prefer to work on a "no doubt" basis. If there is a doubt; let's use a way to resolve the issue.

Of course I talk in the case that the woman didn't cheat on him. Now if she cheated on him, I still think he has the right to know it. And I hate how some (maybe many) people here in France seem to become less and less concerned over infidelity. As if it was "not that important" in a love life anymore. I will point out what happened to Dominique Strauss Khan when he slept with women from the IMF. He cheated on his wife, and there are journalists who said that his wife Anne Sinclair was a marvelous wife because she didn't kick him and even defended him over the issue. And there were French who thought that what DSK did was not that terrible.

As you can see, it shows a lot of things. Now for some people a marvelous wife is somebody who willingly accepts that her husband is unfaithful, and even defend him against the "bad" people who are not ok with that kind of behaviors. And what about the ones who don't accept that? I would have wanted to know what those journalists think about that, but no one raised the quetsion, how surprising. I guess I would be seen as a worst wife ever since I would kick my husband and divorce if he ever cheats on me.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-06-13 at 08:17.
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