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Old 2009-06-17, 16:38   Link #81
lucasd
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
...
That's when Tousen needs to win. Because anyone in the series who's powerful enough to matter will probably be able to eventually fight back as kenpachi did. Tousen's one of those characters who in all actuality, should have the tools needed to immediately defeat almost everyone within this series instantly. But because plot protection will shield his opponents by degrading his intelligence every single time, it's not going to happen. It's a shame really. Because I like Tousen.

So I don't know if Tousen can really be considered "stronger" than Kenpachi or not. But I do know that particular fight could've easily went either way.
Actually Tousen was smart on future vizards, he did what he was supposed to do.
Now almost everybody acts stupid. Let's take Barragan for example, nobody is that stupid to leave captain and go for good for nothing idiot, but he did it with smile...

And about Kenpachi, not 100% sure, but he did fight then with an eye-path, bells and healing from previous fight (Ichigo).
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Old 2009-06-17, 16:48   Link #82
sayde
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Originally Posted by lucasd View Post
Actually Tousen was smart on future vizards, he did what he was supposed to do.
Agreed. The way Tousen immediately took out Kensei serves as a prime example of how Tousen should approach every fight. He used his technique and immediately followed it up w/ a strike to end it. He didn't go on a monologue or toy around.

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Now almost everybody acts stupid.
Yeah. Both antagonists and protagonists alike. *points at Yamamoto*
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Old 2009-06-17, 16:54   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well no, not really because psychology and intellect are part of what makes a good fighter.
^ this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Yeah , Stark power is not sealed within a Zanapkuto, but his fraccion Lilynette . So when Stark does a Resurrection Liliynette turns into a weapon . Though she is not a zanapkuto spirit but part of Stark himself .
Are we sure about that though? I can't see how a Resurreccion would work if she isn't. She would have to be some type of incarnation of Stark's Zanpakuto spirit, right? Although keep in mind, Zanpakuto spirits are part of the souls of the wielder too. She could meet the in-universe definition of a Zanpakuto spirit, even if Stark did in fact choose his powers' physical form somehow.

Though I find it funny, there's been so much speculation about this being a similar relationship Kenpachi and Yachiru has. Only it ended up as another character and his loli having that relationship instead
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Old 2009-06-17, 17:10   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
Are we sure about that though? I can't see how a Resurreccion would work if she isn't. She would have to be some type of incarnation of Stark's Zanpakuto spirit, right? Although keep in mind, Zanpakuto spirits are part of the souls of the wielder too. She could meet the in-universe definition of a Zanpakuto spirit, even if Stark did in fact choose his powers' physical form somehow.
Zanpakuto spirits are ethereal and can only affect the user they are not weapons . If they could act as weapons themselves, there would be no need for a bankai to begin with . A Zanapkuto spirit can only materialize in the real world if the user has gained or nearing bankai .

Also lets assume Lily is one and in bankai/shikai mode when in the gun form . She is talking to Stark , all the shikai and bankai seen so far none have spoken to the user in transformed state.
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Old 2009-06-17, 17:56   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Zanpakuto spirits are ethereal and can only affect the user they are not weapons . If they could act as weapons themselves, there would be no need for a bankai to begin with . A Zanapkuto spirit can only materialize in the real world if the user has gained or nearing bankai .
We know this fact about Shinigami Zanpakutos, but Arrancar Zanpakutos? Since they already prooves to be different with the existence of a Resurreccion instead of a normal Shikai/Bankai(unless they can do either but choose not to). Besides, there's still room for exception, as Stark has already proved among fellow Arrancar.

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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Also lets assume Lily is one and in bankai/shikai mode when in the gun form . She is talking to Stark , all the shikai and bankai seen so far none have spoken to the user in transformed state.
No other Resurreccion spoke either.

Okay, let's assume she isn't Stark's Zanpakuto spirit. What would she be then? If she's another aspect of Stark, which one? And why would she take his Zanpakuto's form instead of the actual Zanpakuto spirit, like any other Zanpakuto? Unless I'm mistaken that a Zanpakuto spirit is the physical manifestation of a Zanpakuto, as I believe was explained in the SS arc.

If one were to argue that Lilinette is one of the individual hollows that Stark consumed as a Menos, then she technically would be an individual now instead of part of Stark, and Stark would have his own Zanpakuto hidden away in his soul.
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Old 2009-06-17, 18:33   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
We know this fact about Shinigami Zanpakutos, but Arrancar Zanpakutos? Since they already prooves to be different with the existence of a Resurreccion instead of a normal Shikai/Bankai(unless they can do either but choose not to). Besides, there's still room for exception, as Stark has already proved among fellow Arrancar.
We are discussing Shinigami aspect of zanapkuto. Arrancar Zanpakuto just seals there hollow form with powers . The Arrancar zanapkuto having a spirit is a theory and has to be addressed in the upcoming chapters . Until then, we have to rely on Shinigami zanapkuto for answers .

There are lot of things unclear how an arrancar instantaneously masters swordsmanship . Yeah its Japan the land of Katanas but Shinigami have to master a discipline called Zanjutsu

Quote:
Okay, let's assume she isn't Stark's Zanpakuto spirit. What would she be then? If she's another aspect of Stark, which one? And why would she take his Zanpakuto's form instead of the actual Zanpakuto spirit, like any other Zanpakuto?

If one were to argue that Lilinette is one of the individual hollows that Stark consumed as a Menos, then she technically would be an individual now instead of part of Stark, and Stark would have his own Zanpakuto hidden away in his soul.
Okay I typed a reply and to double check I reread the translation . Stark address Lily as a different entity even before arrancarization. I also checked other translations and most seem to be in agreement with this one ...



Quote:
Unless I'm mistaken that a Zanpakuto spirit is the physical manifestation of a Zanpakuto, as I believe was explained in the SS arc.
Zanpakuto spirit is not a physical manifestation . Physical manifestation happens in the real world . Zanpakuto spirits can be interacted with in the Zanapkuto World ( IchiVsZaraki) .
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Old 2009-06-17, 18:33   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
Unless I'm mistaken that a Zanpakuto spirit is the physical manifestation of a Zanpakuto, as I believe was explained in the SS arc.
Its been a while but I thought that a Zanpaktou is a manifestation of a Shinigami's reiatsu...it takes the shape/physical form of a Shinigami's sword. The more you know about your own reiatsu or Zanpakuto spirit the more you can manipulate/use its physical form. To the extreme extent of manifesting the Zanpaktou spirit in physical form and achieving bankai with your sword...

idk...what that means to the current discussion but I just felt like pointing it out...
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Old 2009-06-17, 18:51   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
We are discussing Shinigami aspect of zanapkuto. Arrancar Zanpakuto just seals there hollow form with powers . The Arrancar zanapkuto having a spirit is a theory and has to be addressed in the upcoming chapters . Until then, we have to rely on Shinigami zanapkuto for answers .
Well Shinigami and Hollows are all related anyway, as they're both different types of human souls. While that don't necissarily determine their weapons function the same way, it can hint at how aspects of their souls work. For instance, if Ichigo became an Arrancar somehow, wouldn't Hollow/White Ichigo form his Zanpakuto instead of Zangetsu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
There are lot of things unclear how an arrancar instantaneously masters swordsmanship . Yeah its Japan the land of Katanas but Shinigami have to master a discipline called Zanjutsu
I'm not sure most of them have anything you can call "swordsmanship mastery". Maybe Arroniro since he's part Kaien(a Shinigami) or Nnoitora, who's a pure fighter anyway. If you notice Grimmy's style, it looks almost as if he's just a street fighter who picked up a sword. The way he manhandled Ichigo the first time seems to indicate that he's better unarmed. Szayel definitely isn't a swordfighter, he just unsheathed his Zanpakuto to gobble up =D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Okay I typed a reply and to double check I reread the translation . Stark address Lily as a different entity even before arrancarization. I also checked other translations and most seem to be in agreement with this one ...

Interesting point there. But does that mean Stark has a Zanpakuto hidden in his soul that he chooses not to use? Does this mean that he's using Lilinette's hollow power instead of his own? Which mind you would be interesting if that were the case. He has more power, Lilinette has a better suited hollow form for fighting. That would make a potent combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Zanpakuto spirit is not a physical manifestation . Physical manifestation happens in the real world . Zanpakuto spirits can be interacted with in the Zanapkuto World ( IchiVsZaraki) .
Bad choice of words on my part. What I mean is, a Zanpakuto spirit is a sentient incarnation of the Zanpakuto.
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Old 2009-06-17, 19:07   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer View Post
I'm not sure most of them have anything you can call "swordsmanship mastery". Maybe Arroniro since he's part Kaien(a Shinigami) or Nnoitora, who's a pure fighter anyway. If you notice Grimmy's style, it looks almost as if he's just a street fighter who picked up a sword. The way he manhandled Ichigo the first time seems to indicate that he's better unarmed. Szayel definitely isn't a swordfighter, he just unsheathed his Zanpakuto to gobble up =D
Well if me and you fought against any shinigami of VC rank with a sword . We would be slaughtered in minutes if we dont have prior mastery of swordsmanship . All the arrancar so far have faced Shinigami who are VC rank (powers) and above . Yet in a duel the swords they have been able to hold there own against shinigami trained in Zanjutsu.

Stark Halibel Noitora Szayel and many other fraccion fought with a sword and held there own against shinigami before releasing.

Quote:
Interesting point there. But does that mean Stark has a Zanpakuto hidden in his soul that he chooses not to use? Does this mean that he's using Lilinette's hollow power instead of his own? .
Stark doesnt have a Zanapkuto IMHO because he sealed is his hollow form into himself and Lily .Most arrancars have a zanapkuto because they seal there hollow form into it .

Yes and No regarding Stark using Lily's powers alone . Yes because Lily is two guns and no because Stark to has gone some transformation . Personally I do think there will be one more transformation for Stark/Lily .

What will be interesting then is how Los Lobos is addressed then . An incomplete transformation or the first transformation.
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Old 2009-06-17, 19:50   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Well if me and you fought against any shinigami of VC rank with a sword . We would be slaughtered in minutes if we dont have prior mastery of swordsmanship . All the arrancar so far have faced Shinigami who are VC rank (powers) and above . Yet in a duel the swords they have been able to hold there own against shinigami trained in Zanjutsu.

Stark Halibel Noitora Szayel and many other fraccion fought with a sword and held there own against shinigami before releasing.
Szayel fought with his Zanpakuto? I don't recall that.

There could be lots of reasons why they held their own. For instance, if they do in fact have decent swordsmanship... Aizen & co could've taught them the basics. Sub-par swordsmanship combined with their superior powerlevel would in theory be enough to take on a Shinigami of VC level. So far it's been shown that it's the power of Arrancar vs the skill of a Shinigami, at least the way I see it.

And just which Arrancar has good swordsmanship to your recollection? I think maybe a handful of fraccion, but not every single one of them. Besides, the fraccion of higher Espada(such as Findor) could have their position because of their skills with a sword, that sets them apart from their peers. I seem to remember a lot that used brute force and their powers rather than swordfighting. Diroy, Szayel's fraccion, Pō... And lol @ Lilinette trying to fight with a sword, only to have it taken away. xD

Plus you have to consider... just how many Arrancars survived a fight with a Shinigami so far? I'd think they aren't born with skills, at least not good skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Stark doesnt have a Zanapkuto IMHO because he sealed is his hollow form into himself and Lily .Most arrancars have a zanapkuto because they seal there hollow form into it .

Yes and No regarding Stark using Lily's powers alone . Yes because Lily is two guns and no because Stark to has gone some transformation . Personally I do think there will be one more transformation for Stark/Lily .

What will be interesting then is how Los Lobos is addressed then . An incomplete transformation or the first transformation.
Hmmm... I see. From the evidence provided, it seems that they really are two beings. But I guess we have to wait and see what the specifics are before trying to make more sense of it.
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Old 2009-06-17, 19:59   Link #91
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Spoiler for saving space on Stark:


It's funny that there is no explanation on how the villains other than top 3 (Aizen, Foxy shquid and Black dude) know how to use a sword. Hollow should be able to naturally have those crazy super powers and they should be aware of how to use them (like this one in hospital shoting the glue), but does that means that when they turn into arrancars their instinct on powers changes as well and they can fight with swords?
How does they know what to say in order to release? Shinigami have this voice in their heads, a second personality that teaches them this. What about those poor Arrancars? Do they just know this, as if it came back to them with the memories of how to act human instead of a monster like (cat, squid, caterpilar or whatever)?
I doubt that Arrancars have human memories since Menos are a mix of souls and they are just a dominant one that got evolved, and they got evolved again into Arrancars.
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Old 2009-06-17, 21:18   Link #92
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Szayel fought with his Zanpakuto? I don't recall that.
not much, but he did draw it a couple times against renji.
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Old 2009-06-17, 21:27   Link #93
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i think i've convinced myself no espada are VL...there i said it. Personally i think VLs would not split their power but instead just have a release command...like they are their own power. Similar to one of the OVAs where the zanpaktou is a living thing and doesn't need another zanpaktou.
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Old 2009-06-17, 23:35   Link #94
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So would it be plausible to say this is Lini's Resurrecion and Not starks?
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Old 2009-06-18, 00:01   Link #95
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So would it be plausible to say this is Lini's Resurrecion and Not starks?
i don't see how.
he is clearly the more powerful pre-release, he calls the release, and she is the weapons post-release.
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Old 2009-06-18, 00:32   Link #96
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Stark does look a lot like Cross, a whole lot like Cross .

I am wondering if the two techniques are related to individual Zanpakuto
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Old 2009-06-18, 01:26   Link #97
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Stark does look a lot like Cross, a whole lot like Cross .

I am wondering if the two techniques are related to individual Zanpakuto
I the Stark release look very nice 70's cloths
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Old 2009-06-18, 01:28   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post

Credits : Da'Flash

Stark does look a lot like Cross, a whole lot like Cross .

I am wondering if the two techniques are related to individual Zanpakuto
yep...he even has the one eye covered thing goin on. Furthermore, is lilinette both guns or just one?
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Old 2009-06-18, 02:12   Link #99
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Did anyone realise that Stark is the only arrancar whose original/released form has BUTTONS?

You know you're awesome when you have buttons as a feature of your realease
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Old 2009-06-18, 02:29   Link #100
Mr. DJ
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Why to give him guns in the first place? He shot ceros without any effort in unreleased form -_-
maybe they're stronger?
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