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Old 2009-06-20, 09:35   Link #121
SuperiorX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
My bets on Luffy saving Ace. My belief is the World government could care less if Ace is saved or not but the out come of this huge war with white beard is huge for them. The Shichbukai, Black Beard, Crocodile, Jenbei and Admiral Garb are unkown factors in this coming war. Luffy if he plays his cards right and times it with Whitebeard and his crew's appearence could slip in and out with Ace and with out having to fight any one and leaving the big boys to fight it out with each other.

After this whole issue Luffy's bounty better be 400,000,000 beli or 500,000,000 beli. Also that would be wierd if Luffy find his next crew member in this big war.

hoping for much more then 500mil after all he hit an tenryubuto which was willin to spend 500 on a mermaid we can hope that money will be put towards luffys bounty 500+320= 820 000 000 lol
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Old 2009-06-20, 13:20   Link #122
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Point is, Luffy is already amongst the most powerful characters in the OP world. Losing to Kuma (a powerful Shichibukai) or Kizaru (an Admiral and part of the Marines 'ultimate attack force') is nothing to be ashamed of. Both are probably amongst the top 15 most powerful characters in the entire world and thats saying something. Just because Luffy has lost to a couple of ppl doesn't mean hes not 'qualified'. Hell why do people either overrate or underrate Luffy?? Hes no pushover..as proven by the fact that he was able to beat 2 Shichibukai, defeat the CP9 and escape from a Buster Call.
No, Luffy is not amongst the most powerful in the One Piece universe. He still has a long way to go before he reaches the top tier (there are so many examples that substantiate this claim), and this is logical considering how we're presumably only a little bit past half way in the story. Why would he be able to contend with the top monsters this early? It doesn't make sense.

Speaking of underrating, I think the biggest problem with a lot of One Piece fans is that they perceive villains who have been defeated by Luffy as weak. Let's take Crocodile and Moria, for example. So many people (this is an understatement) automatically assume that they're the weakest warlords just because they lost already, with Crocodile being the weakest warlord since he lost first, followed by Moria. This sounds absolutely ridiculous and it is a fallacious argument. Furthermore, they claim that Luffy has truly surpassed these two warlords, simply because he beat them. What they fail to realize is that Luffy beat them due to special circumstances and gimmicks (I don't think I need to elaborate on this). How is that a fair assessment to say that Luffy is indisputably stronger than them? It's as if people just look at the outcome, and use that as the basis for their judgement. Scrutinizing what led up to those certain outcomes is also just as important.

I'm not trying to belittle Luffy here, but in the aforementioned cases I listed, he gets a little too much credit, whereas Crocodile and Moria are classified as weak automatically. This preconceived notion has to stop.

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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
He did beat a Pacifista if you remember. Also Sentomaru is not Kizaru's subordinate as you seem to be suggesting, but rather Captain of the Scientific Guard Unit, which seems to be quite a high ranking position, implying that Sento is no pushover. Luffy couldn't oppose Magellan? Neither could Jimbei or Croc. That doesn't mean anything reallly lol
1. He beat a pacifista with his entire crew, and they all fought to complete exhaustion.

2. Sentoumaru is Kizaru's subordinate. I don't know how you missed this since Kizaru asked a few pirates at the archipelago if they've seen his subordinate Sentoumaru. It was outright stated more than once.

3. Jimbei and Crocodile haven't even fought against Magellan, so how can you say that they couldn't oppose him as well?
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Old 2009-06-20, 14:22   Link #123
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
So what qualifications do you need?

Pray do enlighten us with your marvellous piece of insight. Does he need a phd or perhaps an MBA?
How about Luffy actually get stronger?

You don't need the marvelous insight, just common sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige
Mold and Phenomenom can you stop being retarded?
You really shouldn't call anyone any names, you don't even understand what the discussion is about, but then again most can't for some reason or at least don't want to. So I don't blame you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James
LOL, Moldie you crack me up. This whole qualification angle is ultimately silly, and ignorant of the story (i.e. all the other times Luffy was considered under-qualified). There is no qualification standard for anything in the series, and no amount of incorrectly using this argument, or misinterpreting my posts, will make that true. Luffy being weak only means that Luffy is weak, it does not mean that Luffy cannot do whatever he wants, even if he ends up killing himself in the end...
The only one misinterpreting posts *purposely* is you, you also contentiously put words in my posts you quote, Look I'm say this nice and slow for you.

I (As in me) didn't (as in did not) say ( to express in words) that Luffy cannot do whatever he wants because he is weak (Which is what you keep claiming I did). (which is wrong.) Luffy can go to the war, try and get KO, but for Luffy who is weak, who has NOT improved to do things that requires a certain level of strength that he does not have (IE succeeding in saving Ace, while facing Greater Odds then what he could not overcome back on bubble land,) is out right bull, and I will call Oda out on that every time.

You got a problem with that, tell Oda to write up something legit. (Which is what I'm hoping for)

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-06-20 at 14:55. Reason: I will have to combat something that has nothing to do with the current disscussion I bet.
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Old 2009-06-20, 15:31   Link #124
grey_1960
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What is the currency exchange rate for beli? This argument thats going around and around is kinda funny. LOL

I know Luffy as potential for Haki but I sure hope Sanji and Zoro will follow suit with Haki capabilities. Zoro and Sanji are pretty powerful already but Haki would make them really strong and capable of fighting other devil fruit users. I could see Sanji vs. Kizaru when Sanji gets up there in that level. Can't wait to see Zoro face off against Mihawk espcially after Mihawk and Shanks were once rivals.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2009-06-20 at 19:04. Reason: Forgot to add thought
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Old 2009-06-20, 15:32   Link #125
andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
No, Luffy is not amongst the most powerful in the One Piece universe. He still has a long way to go before he reaches the top tier (there are so many examples that substantiate this claim), and this is logical considering how we're presumably only a little bit past half way in the story. Why would he be able to contend with the top monsters this early? It doesn't make sense.

Speaking of underrating, I think the biggest problem with a lot of One Piece fans is that they perceive villains who have been defeated by Luffy as weak. Let's take Crocodile and Moria, for example. So many people (this is an understatement) automatically assume that they're the weakest warlords just because they lost already, with Crocodile being the weakest warlord since he lost first, followed by Moria. This sounds absolutely ridiculous and it is a fallacious argument. Furthermore, they claim that Luffy has truly surpassed these two warlords, simply because he beat them. What they fail to realize is that Luffy beat them due to special circumstances and gimmicks (I don't think I need to elaborate on this). How is that a fair assessment to say that Luffy is indisputably stronger than them? It's as if people just look at the outcome, and use that as the basis for their judgement. Scrutinizing what led up to those certain outcomes is also just as important.

I'm not trying to belittle Luffy here, but in the aforementioned cases I listed, he gets a little too much credit, whereas Crocodile and Moria are classified as weak automatically. This preconceived notion has to stop.



1. He beat a pacifista with his entire crew, and they all fought to complete exhaustion.

2. Sentoumaru is Kizaru's subordinate. I don't know how you missed this since Kizaru asked a few pirates at the archipelago if they've seen his subordinate Sentoumaru. It was outright stated more than once.

3. Jimbei and Crocodile haven't even fought against Magellan, so how can you say that they couldn't oppose him as well?
I also think the problem is some OP fans put down luffy . In your post you just said luffy beat croc and moria by gimmicks but fail to mention that odds was not even in his favor or even. Fighting croc in desert country , moria at his home base. If luffy was fight them 1 on 1 what would happen now is the question .He knows croc weakness and has gear 2 and 3, moria does not have all those shadows he got in last 10 years any more.
From what i see i think moria is the weakest warlord , but that because his DF depends on so much out side factors like how many shadows he has where he is fight etc etc .
I am talking about 1 on 1 fighting by the way .

OP is really like a fighting game when look at it , luffy would be mid tier right now . ( any body playing on getting blazblue ?)

For eg it would be some thing like this from what we have seen and what we know.

God tier
admirals , some warlords , four king , , Jimbei ( in water)

high tier
croc , some VA ,some warlords ,smoker ,Sentoumaru, Jimbei (out of water) pacifista , enel

MId tier

luffy ,moria (depends on how many shadows he has and place could go to high),zoro

Won't bother to list any more i think luffy is strong but there are good set of people over him from what we have seen and from some things we know.

Like some people in new world , i expect some if not all of WB commanders to be above luffy.
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Old 2009-06-20, 15:49   Link #126
james0246
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I didn't say that Luffy cannot do whatever he wants because he is weak. (Which you keep making up out of thin air.) He can go to the war and get KO.
Actually you have. In fact, your entire argument (Luffy isn’t qualified (or doesn’t meet a strength requirement), hence he should not/could not/must not save Ace), is based around the exact opposite of the in bold text. But, just to show that I am not making up your stance, here is what you have said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I wished Oda would keep Luffy's weak baby a$$ out of this event and keep it to the Big players. Heck in fact I'm sick of hearing a$$ back wards arguments, like "Luffy wants to save Ace" WTF SO! that don't mean he is suppose to or should when others who are more qualified then luffy have the same goal? Everyone wants to do X, that does not mean they are qualified or can. Wanting simply can't get you no where. Its the work you put in, and how you stack up against someone with the same goal as you. Point is who is more qualified?
But, just in case you have forgotten, here are a few others that you have mentioned over the weeks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
. I'll say it again, Luffy is two weak to be involved in this war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
He didn't earn it.
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Sorry James......theres a strength requirement.
Etc. (and there were more, but they are all basically repeating these lines (sometimes your even quoting these lines of thought), but I felt I should keep this post short so I only include these 3). In the end, despite your current reversal (which may very well have always been your basic point, in which case you have not been able to convey that idea properly until now), by your own words, you have said that Luffy being weak means that he doesn’t “deserve” have a “right” or should go to war. You have even said that Luffy going to war would be bad writing, or that Oda should stop it from happening, etc.

In the end, as I have said many times now, there is no strength requirement, no qualification round, no test, and no invite involved with going to war. Luffy potentially going to war is within the very definition of his character (Luffy succeeding, failing, or being knocked out before the conflicts actually start, are all possibilities based on our opinions, but Luffy trying to go to war is based on canon). That is all I have ever argued, and what I will continue to argue as so long as you, or others, try to argue that he shouldn’t potentially take place in the upcoming conflicts.

edit: it seems you added more text while I was writing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
but for Luffy who is weak, who has NOT improved to do things that requires a certain level of strength that he does not have (IE succeeding in saving Ace, while facing Greater Odds then what he could not overcome back on bubble land,) is out right bull, and I will call Oda out on that every time.
Who said Luffy would succeed? Luffy going and then failing could be quite interesting (and, as I mentioned to Phenomenal, could be the real lesson that Luffy needs to evolve, not only as a character, but as a fighter (i.e. Jiraiya dying was the best thing that ever happened to Naruto, so maybe Luffy witnessing Whitebeard's fall ((while being able to do nothing), or even possibly Ace's fall, could be the real thing that pushes Luffy to evolve).
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Old 2009-06-20, 15:49   Link #127
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
I also think the problem is some OP fans put down luffy . In your post you just said luffy beat croc and moria by gimmicks but fail to mention that odds was not even in his favor or even.
That's just too bad. He was the one who challenged them on their home turfs, so you can't blame them for that. And things just went horribly wrong for them, to the point where they were handicapped (i.e. Crocodile intentionally fighting Luffy without his sand powers in the third fight), screwed over by outside interference (i.e. Rolling pirates implanting 100 shadows into Luffy, which allowed him to defeat Moria), and forced to lose for the sake of plot (i.e. sun rise was coming up at Thriller Bark, so of course Luffy had to beat a severely weakened ASGARD Moria (a convenient way of having his shadows expelled and sent back to their owners without him giving the explicit order to do so), otherwise Luffy and the other victims whose shadows had been robbed would have died, which just could not happen).

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
OP is really like a fighting game when look at it , luffy would be mid tier right now . ( any body playing on getting blazblue ?)
Interesting. You play fighting games? Which ones do you play, if I may ask? And yes, I plan on getting BlazBlue .
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Old 2009-06-20, 18:05   Link #128
Master Mold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold
Last edited by Master Mold; Today at 14:55. Reason: I will have to combat something that has nothing to do with the current disscussion I bet.
I should be getting paid right about now.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Actually you have. In fact, your entire argument (Luffy isn’t qualified (or doesn’t meet a strength requirement), hence he should not/could not/must not save Ace), is based around the exact opposite of the in bold text. But, just to show that I am not making up your stance, here is what you have said:
The current discussion is that Luffy is NOT qualified to save Ace heck you quoted it. No where in that Post Did I say "Luffy should not go to war."


Quote:
But, just in case you have forgotten, here are a few others that you have mentioned over the weeks:
and that has what to do with what I'm saying now? Heck wanna bring up what I have and others have said over the past years regarding things in One Piece? As if theose words would still hold any weight in a present disscussion we are having that you jump into a$$ fist not knowing what is being discussed or what was agree upon?

Quote:
Etc. (and there were more, but they are all basically repeating these lines (sometimes your even quoting these lines of thought), but I felt I should keep this post short so I only include these 3). In the end, despite your current reversal (which may very well have always been your basic point, in which case you have not been able to convey that idea properly until now), by your own words, you have said that Luffy being weak means that he doesn’t “deserve” have a “right” or should go to war. You have even said that Luffy going to war would be bad writing, or that Oda should stop it from happening, etc.

In the end, as I have said many times now, there is no strength requirement, no qualification round, no test, and no invite involved with going to war. Luffy potentially going to war is within the very definition of his character (Luffy succeeding, failing, or being knocked out before the conflicts actually start, are all possibilities based on our opinions, but Luffy trying to go to war is based on canon). That is all I have ever argued, and what I will continue to argue as so long as you, or others, try to argue that he shouldn’t potentially take place in the upcoming conflicts.
edit: it seems you added more text while I was writing...
The sad thing about this is that I'm not even arguing weather or not Luffy could try or not. Heck I have even confrimed it in this current discussion how many times for you now? (I'd say about more then 5 time along with another member informing you. I have even agreed that Luffy can go and get KOed.) Christ! so who are you really aruging with, since I have not brought up weather or not Luffy can or cannot go to war?

Sad James really sad.


Quote:
Who said Luffy would succeed? Luffy going and then failing could be quite interesting (and, as I mentioned to Phenomenal, could be the real lesson that Luffy needs to evolve, not only as a character, but as a fighter (i.e. Jiraiya dying was the best thing that ever happened to Naruto, so maybe Luffy witnessing Whitebeard's fall ((while being able to do nothing), or even possibly Ace's fall, could be the real thing that pushes Luffy to evolve).
You did, I say Luffy is not qualified to save Ace, you flip out and nerd rage with insults and all.

So please explain?
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Old 2009-06-20, 18:15   Link #129
james0246
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
The current discussion is that Luffy is NOT qualified to save Ace heck you quoted it. No where in that Post Did I say "Luffy should not go to war."...
Sadly, you do not even appear to understand your own words or their meaning anymore (you can't even grasp the hypocrisy of your statements), even when confronted with what you have actually said this week and just a week or two previous. Well, there is no point in repeating myself in hopes that you might actually understanding anything, so there is no point in trying to continue this discussion now, especially considering you are blantantly trying to rewrite your entire history cocnerning the issues at hand. I hope you will have a good day/night, and I will "see" you next week.

(btw, how do you jump into soemthing ass fist ?)
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Old 2009-06-20, 18:28   Link #130
Master Mold
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Sadly, you do not even appear to understand your own words or their meaning anymore, even when confronted with what you have actually said. Well, there is no point in repeating myself in hopes of you actually understanding anything, so there is no point in trying to continue this discussion now, especially considering you are blantantly simply trying to rewrite your entire history cocnerning the issues at hand. I hope you will have a good day/night, and I will "see" you next week.
Man this is sad. This is coming from the guy who goes back and pulls up a few posts that are weeks old, in this current discussion, Where I have already argeed that his favorite character can go to the war etc etc, I have repeatly explained to him that the current/present discussion (something that he ain't in) discussion has nothing to do with the past discussion (something he won't let go even when I have agreeed with him) I am arguing that Luffy is not is NOT qualified to save Ace. Yet you try to trun this into a Luffy is qualified to go to war, when I didn't even bring that up in this current discussion. Heck for the last time I even agreed that he can go and get KOed many times.

Yet you still don't get it.

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(btw, how do you jump into soemthing ass fist ?)
I didn't even know it was possible until you did it.-+
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Old 2009-06-20, 18:29   Link #131
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I didn't even know it was possible until you did it.
LOL, I walked into that one, didn't I .
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Old 2009-06-20, 18:37   Link #132
Talendra
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It's been fun to watch you struggle, Master Mold, however, can't you just accept your absolutely obvious defeat and stay quite about this matter for a while? It just gets kinda boring to read the same discussion over and over again, weekly refreshed or not
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Old 2009-06-20, 19:49   Link #133
Master Mold
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It's been fun to watch you struggle, Master Mold, however, can't you just accept your absolutely obvious defeat and stay quite about this matter for a while? It just gets kinda boring to read the same discussion over and over again, weekly refreshed or not
What defeat?

Nor was it me who brought up that old discussion.
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Old 2009-06-20, 21:02   Link #134
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Quote:
How about Luffy actually get stronger?
Who says hes not?

You?

Quote:
Luffy is NOT qualified to save Ace
I don't get it, how is he not getting stronger?

And whats the problem with 'not being qualified'? How does that affect the story in any way? How does that affect you in any way? What are you arguing for? Whats your point? I don't see why one needs to be qualified to help one's brother..

Does anyone else? Or is it just me?
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Old 2009-06-20, 23:09   Link #135
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Who says hes not?

You?
Luffy should get stronger.

Quote:
I don't get it, how is he not getting stronger?
How has he gotten stronger? to the point it would place himself on equal footing with the other players in this event?

Quote:
And whats the problem with 'not being qualified'?
There is no problem, let some one else save Ace (Newgate or Dragon) and have Luffy fail.

Quote:
How does that affect the story in any way?
It would be crap writing and forceful to accept if Luffy WTF KOED X Character and saved Ace.

Quote:
How does that affect you in any way?
I get head aches, a bad taste in my mouth similar to the time when I read Luffy defeat Croc.

Quote:
What are you arguing for?
I ask myself that ever time I post on a forum, with hardy debaters.

Quote:
Does anyone else? Or is it just me?
Its you, so What is your point again?
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Old 2009-06-20, 23:43   Link #136
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This whole "Luffy isn't qualified or strong enough" to save Ace argument seems a little absurd to me.

Luffy doesn't need to be strong enough to save Ace, his objective is to free Ace, not fight Shichibukai members or Marine Admirals. Luffy has Jimbei, Iva and the gang all willing to be his shield to save Ace, not to mention having Hancock as an insider. This combined with all the great powers waring with the marines should hopefully be enough to clear most the big wigs for Luffy to go do his thing. Hell maybe even Garp will assist Luffy.

There's plenty of possibilities for how all this could play out and I don't really think it would be bad writing for Luffy to be the one to save Ace.
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Old 2009-06-21, 03:07   Link #137
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How has he gotten stronger? to the point it would place himself on equal footing with the other players in this event?
hes not looking to one hit ko kizaru, aokiji and whatnot is he?

Hes just looking to save Ace. That doesn't require an immense amount of power, considering the allies hes got (wb, jimbei, hancock etcetc).

Besides, Luffy is growing stronger and stronger. I think your mixing up OP with Bleach or Naruto. Fact is, OP isn't like Bleach where you get an instant power boost after learning a 'bankai' or Naruto where you also get an instant power boost after learning a new technique..in OP characters grow constantly (like in real life). Don't you agree with me? =(
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Old 2009-06-21, 04:31   Link #138
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^Not to disagree with your point (which has several parts I do agree with), but instant power-ups do exist in One Piece...they never really last, though (case and point, Nightmare Luffy who was said to potentially equal one of the Yonkou (or at least he equaled and surpassed the combination team of Moria and Odz, which Moria thought would equal Kaidou)) and sometimes they are purely comedic in effect (ala Afro-Luffy). And, the power-ups that do last, only occur once every 100+ chapters, or so (with minor adjustments found throughout (ala combination Gear 2 and 3 attacks, etc)). The next major power-up for Luffy will probably be Haki, of which Luffy has produced several time, albeit subconsciously/unconsciously for 50 or so chapters, and this power-up probably will not actually take effect until the New World (though the war area could be where the power-up is fully grasped).

Last edited by james0246; 2009-06-21 at 04:48.
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Old 2009-06-21, 12:39   Link #139
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I keep hearing all this stuff about being "qualified." What is this a job interview?
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Old 2009-06-21, 13:44   Link #140
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
hes not looking to one hit ko kizaru, aokiji and whatnot is he?

Hes just looking to save Ace.
That doesn't require an immense amount of power, considering the allies hes got (wb, jimbei, hancock etcetc).
They are going to be there guarding Ace along with many others.
and they are looking to stop Ace from being saved.

Quote:
Besides, Luffy is growing stronger and stronger. I think your mixing up OP with Bleach or Naruto. Fact is, OP isn't like Bleach where you get an instant power boost after learning a 'bankai' or Naruto where you also get an instant power boost after learning a new technique..in OP characters grow constantly (like in real life). Don't you agree with me? =(
I don't fully agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Dreamer
I keep hearing all this stuff about being "qualified." What is this a job interview?
Luffy was interviewed back when he was on Sabaody Archipelago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
This whole "Luffy isn't qualified or strong enough" to save Ace argument seems a little absurd to me.

Luffy doesn't need to be strong enough to save Ace, his objective is to free Ace, not fight Shichibukai members or Marine Admirals. Luffy has Jimbei, Iva and the gang all willing to be his shield to save Ace, not to mention having Hancock as an insider. This combined with all the great powers waring with the marines should hopefully be enough to clear most the big wigs for Luffy to go do his thing. Hell maybe even Garp will assist Luffy.

There's plenty of possibilities for how all this could play out and I don't really think it would be bad writing for Luffy to be the one to save Ace.
Its not even the top players that are needed to chase Luffy away ala Kuma bot, but I understand what your saying and that could happen. Luffy needing someone to hold his wang while he urinates.
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