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Old 2009-06-23, 09:52   Link #81
yezhanquan
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Old 2009-06-23, 22:03   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Zalis View Post
Let me propose another theory to explain the shifting genres: the increase in Japanese-otakubait shows is a direct result of the decline in anime sales in North America and elsewhere around the world. Take a look back to 2002-2004, when you had more series like Haibane Renmei, Paranoia Agent, Kaleido Star, Witch Hunter Robin, Last Exile, ROD TV, Trinity Blood, Gankutsuou, Chrono Crusade, Koi Kaze, Kino's Journey, Kurau Phantom Memory, Scrapped Princess, Texhnolyze, GitS:SAC, etc. Whatever the relative merits of these shows, they were all relatively free of the cheap/exploitative elements that the OP railed against.

Back then, foreign sales were higher, and the R1 industry was healthy enough to directly contribute to the financing of some of those series. Back then, it was more feasible to make anime that wasn't directly intended for hardcore Japanese otaku, because they were likely to make up the difference in overseas licensing and sales. But ever since we the overseas fanbase became more interested in making excuses to stick to fansubs ("waah waah, dubs suck, subtitles are too ugly, DVD resolution is too low") instead of supporting the kinds of shows we liked, those kinds of shows have dwindled away. Now, I'm not trying to say "I'm perfect and you all are a bunch of dirty pirates," because I'm certainly a dirty pirate as well. And I'm not saying that nobody here buys any anime, because I know they do. What I am saying is that we as non-Japanese fans need to take a look at ourselves and our actions, and what role they've played in bringing things to the state they're in today.

Personally, I don't mind the Kanokon/Yumeria/Magikano/Sekirei/(anything based on visual novel) types of anime. In fact, it annoys me more when I'm watching a fun and sexy fanservice series that kills the mood by actually bringing some serious plot in.

---------------
tl; dr -- You can't blame studios for creating anime for the fans who actually buy it.
I really doubt oversea sales affected anything. And after 2004 many great titles that came out that is good as or even better than the show you mentioned that did not had lot of fan service or cheap/exploitative elements.
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Old 2009-06-24, 04:47   Link #83
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Wouldnt forign over sea sales flow into the hands of the companies that dubed it? after all they paid for a license.
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Old 2009-06-24, 05:54   Link #84
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Originally Posted by stubby42 View Post
Wouldnt forign over sea sales flow into the hands of the companies that dubed it? after all they paid for a license.
Yes, but license costs are coupled to the number of items sold nowadays. And in any case, if the Japanese producers see anime selling well oversees the license fees will rise. So in the end, a lot of money flows back to Japan in any case. Of course, when you have a middle man as a filter the consumer power is drastically reduced compared to those that buy directly in Japan.

However contrary to popular myths, about 90 percent of money made overseas (or in the US at least) is made in form of more pirating-proof merchandising not DVDs. And the market for DVD+VHS shrank even less than that for chracter goods. So ohmygodpiracy is not the reason for the demise of the US market. It is also true that the US DVD market dwarfs in comparison to the Japanese market and always did.

I'd like to warn against this narrative of intellectual foreign fans with acquired tastes vs. the perverted brainless otaku hordes of Japan that tends to pop up in these discussions. Once again: Practially everything we watch was and is made for Japanese otaku. Or for Japanese children.

Don't fool yourself into believing that the regular posters of animesuki>general anime are the prototypical overseas fans. The prototypical foreign fan wants Naruto, not Haibane Renmei. It's a pointless excercise to ponder about the preferences of an audience that simply doesn't exist. But for once, I don't believe that if anime had a much bigger share in the West there would be less ecchi produced. It would cater different fetishes maybe. There would be more samurai, big boobs, ninja, and gore in anime maybe. Better overall quality? No.
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Old 2009-06-24, 06:06   Link #85
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Wouldnt forign over sea sales flow into the hands of the companies that dubed it? after all they paid for a license.
yes. But that still impacts licensors, since the licensees have to determine if a show can sell well enough to be worth it. Actually the exclusive pre-paid licensing model makes it even harder for niche shows to come over.
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Old 2009-06-24, 06:49   Link #86
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Man, I don't think this needs any sort of intelligent discussions as to why Anime like this exists, etc.

The whole first post is entirely subjective. Whoa you're a chick who doesn't like girl-filled harem Anime series that pander to lascivious males, gasp! American/European TV shows are like this, music is like this, books are like this. They're called genres. Sometimes one genre dominates others for certain periods of time but never is there only the single dominating genre around.

If you don't like them you don't have to watch them or participate in the fandom, hurr. There are some shitty series around right now, but not everything is comedy/ecchi themed. Anime isn't being "abused".
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:46   Link #87
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I don't like soapoperas, reality tv and 'jerry springer' talkshows

....still doesn't stop other people from watching them, and explains why there's so bloody many of them
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Old 2009-06-25, 01:51   Link #88
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Abused? From a RL standpoint, no, anime is a tight, cut-throat sweatshop business afterall and is only doing its very best to cater to the most reliable market's tastes -> the Japanese Otaku.

From a really high moral standpoint, yes anime is full of "abuse" but "normal" people like it being abused.

I too, hate it when there are stuff which doesn't exactly need to be there but even when the Western anime fans think fanservice is artistic (Macross F on a thread long ago) or just derive plain pleasure from fanservice (FMP Fumoffu mentioned in this thread), it is quickly established that I am in a tiny minority. Therefore, you and I only have our "deviant" tastes to blame.

Watching anime is not "normal". Feeling disgusted about fanservice is also not "normal".

Still, anime is my ultimate guilty pleasure!
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Old 2009-06-27, 22:15   Link #89
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There are a few salient points that I think can be taken from the OP. Some of what the OP has stated I'm inclined to agree with. I also think that the "If you don't like it, don't watch it" argument is kind of missing the point - the point is addressing what anime is like today, and how much of its potential and even viability as an entertainment and story-telling medium is being wasted and/or risked.

There are a couple trends I've seen recently that are a bit worrisome to me.


First is the trend of "give it a little bit of each and every anime genre in the hopes we'll net every anime fan".


So, you have an anime like Code Geass that has mecha, slice of life, a touch of school comedy, fanservice, moe, shonen elements, seinen elements, etc...

And you have Shakugan no Shana amping up the dial on slice of life content in Season 2, as well as including Shana fanservice shots at some odd times (like in the middle of dramatic fights).

And both of that's fine to a degree - I'm a fan of both of the above animes - but I do think that you have a problem when every well-hyped anime tries to be a fusion of all of the anime genres out there.

What has happened is that if you're a mecha fan and you just want to see mecha with out the other genres, or if you're a magical girl anime fan in the Sailor Moon/Magical Knight Rayearth/Card Captor Sakura mould and just want to see magical girl anime with out the other genres, or if you want to see a largely serious and intellectual anime like Serial Experiment Lain or Neon Genesis Evangelion... you really are running out of options.

Ecchi is a genre with its own unique fanbase, and not every anime fan is into ecchi - it shouldn't be something that's in almost every prominent anime out there, just like mecha shouldn't be something that's in almost every prominent anime out there.

An argument is made that sex sells - well, yes, it does. But it truly doesn't sell to everyone (if it did, you wouldn't see the recent trend of Hollywood theaters trying to avoid R ratings), and many of the people that it doesn't sell to could easily become anime fans if you simply had popular titles that had little to no fan service.

Is any modern anime as popular (i.e. raking in the dough/getting as many viewers) as DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon where in their primes? I don't know for certain, but I'm inclined to think 'no'.

And how much sexual fanservice did DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon contain? And were DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon fusions, or were they clear-cut representations of one particular anime genre?

I certainly wouldn't want every anime to be with out fanservice, but it would be nice if you had something prominent out there that had little or no fan service.


A second trend is the self-referential trend. You see this with Lucky Star, Code Geass again, and many other animes. Anime is increasingly becoming governed by codewords and insider language and stock character types and particular persistent ways of framing things - anime increasingly borrows from itself and not from anything outside of its immediate frame of reference. This sort of stuff almost killed Star Trek, and it severely hurt western comic books. It's no coincidence that the latest Star Trek movie was designed not for hardcore Trekkies - it wasn't loaded with the favorite tropes and technobabble and quirks and cliches of Star Trek, but rather it was made accessible to a general audience. And that's a big part of why the latest Star Trek movie did well, unlike its immediate predecessors which bombed.


Looking at it from a business standpoint, I really do think that there's a very wide potential market for anime that's being missed out on because of the recent fusion and self-referential trends that can make it difficult for the new fan to break into anime, as well as for the fan who wants just one particular thing, or two particular things, within their anime.

And I mean... the argument is that fanservice sells. Well, I think that it's hard to dispute that anime has ever had more fanservice than it does now, and yet, how is anime doing right now financially?

Yes, the economy in general is in the trash, but movies and movie theaters are still chugging along quite fine last I checked, and movie theaters are doing it in part because some of their prominent titles is accessible to most or all age groups and/or are designed to appeal to a general audience and not just to an insider audience.

It's not about taking moe, kawaii, fanservice, or any of that from anime - it's about having something new there for the fans/potential fans who aren't into that.


Now, I could be wrong with some or a lot of this, but they are my current thoughts, and I think that it's worth serious discussion.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-06-27 at 22:38.
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Old 2009-06-27, 23:32   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Code Geass...Shakugan no Shana...Lucky Star
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon
I don't think it makes sense to compare shows aimed at adults with shows aimed at children as an indicator of changes over time.

DBZ, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, and other children's shows of years past would be compared with modern children's shows such as One Piece, Net Ghost Pipopa, and PreCure.

Adult-targeted late-night shows like Shakugan no Shana, Code Geass (the first season anyway) and Lucky Star evolved from the OVA market of the 80s and 90s, so should be compared to things like Bubblegum Crisis, Gunbuster, Aozora Shoujotai, etc.
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Old 2009-06-27, 23:54   Link #91
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And how much sexual fanservice did DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon contain? And were DBZ, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon fusions, or were they clear-cut representations of one particular anime genre?
Sailor Moon did have a fair amount of sexual fanservice. Sailor Moon was also a fusion. Sailor Moon was the first real fighting magical girl team. Combing magical girl and sentai.

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First is the trend of "give it a little bit of each and every anime genre in the hopes we'll net every anime fan".


So, you have an anime like Code Geass that has mecha, slice of life, a touch of school comedy, fanservice, moe, shonen elements, seinen elements, etc...
It also is a very popular show.

Although admittedly both shows based on visual novels and otaku targeted slice-of-lifes are relatively new genres (by that I mean current decade). People tend to ignore the fact that many of these have a varied amount of moe, ecchi and harem elements. A lot of people who decry moe echii harem crap can often be found to like shows with these elements.

You end up with people complaining about how much moe echii harem crap like Utawarerumono, Fate/Stay Night, Shana, Lucky Star, Azumanga Daioh, Aria, Sketchbook ~Full Colours~, School Days, Higurashi, Hidamari Sketch, Saki, Hayate the Combat Butler, Spice and Wolf, Nanatsuiro Drops and Rumbling Hearts is made. They should make good relaxing action drama comedy romances like Utawarerumono, Fate/Stay Night, Shana, Lucky Star, Azumanga Daioh, Aria, Sketchbook ~Full Colours~, School Days, Higurashi, Hidamari Sketch, Saki, Hayate the Combat Butler, Spice and Wolf, Nanatsuiro Drops and Rumbling Hearts.
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Old 2009-06-28, 00:01   Link #92
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Slice of Life in "serious" genres such as Geass and Battle-oriented stuff can be used effectively to bridge the gap between the storms and give the viewer a break. SnS1 was quite effective in doing so while we all know about SnS2. Sailor Moon and CCS also had plenty of slice thrown into it.

Females which are compelling (and sometimes end up as being "m0e" to some people) can help enhance a viewing experience. For example, Nanoha just happened to be "m0e" without really needing all the exploitation that are seen in K-ON. This opens another can of worms. Exploitation is perfectly in place for K-ON while if it was also done in Nanoha... What I'm trying to get at here is, simply having a good female in general may also attract the "m0e" crowd. Wait...CCS Sakura won the first-ever m0e popularity contest in Japan...

At the end of the day, it's all about case-by-case, balance, and how good a sense the production stuff have. Overlapping genres to an extent imo can improve the viewing experience.

Going back on topic...would removing fanservice alone urge the average consumer to start buying the DVDs? We know high quality, animated movies without the fanservice may indeed sell (Ghibli, Pixar, Disney) but will ordinary animated series be able to compete with primetime TV shows (AI, Grey's, LOST etc.) as those are the shows that the "normal" people watch - or should producers just keep to fanservice to serve a proven source on income - the Japanese Otaku?

Oh, I remember switching on the telly at 10am on a Saturday morning in Hong Kong to see a nude Sailor Moon in battle - so fanservice even in some "mainstream"/kiddy stuff.

P.s. This comes from a person who would rather see next to zero fanservice in his own, dreamy, ideal world.
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Old 2009-06-28, 05:59   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town View Post
Sailor Moon did have a fair amount of sexual fanservice.
The final Sailor Moon season - the Galaxia season - did, but I don't recall the other Sailor Moon seasons having much sexual fanservice. And the final Sailor Moon season was the only one to not get the English dub treatment, IIRC.

Let me be clear on something - nude bodies entirely immersed in bright light so that you can't see anything other than an outline doesn't strike Joe Blow Average as anything to get sexually titillated over. And one-piece bathing suits (which is basically what the Sailor Scouts wore along with their skirts), while sexy, are generally considered much more innocent than skimpier two-piece bathing suits. Simply put, while some fanservice fans may see the above as "sexual fanservice", to most people, I think, it's not something to even bat an eyelash at. In some ways then, it's perhaps ideal - some fanservice fans can find it sexually titillating while people not into sexual fanservice can look at it and don't see anything all that sexual to it.

Panty shots, OTOH, are clear-cut sexual fanservice in everybody's eyes.


Quote:

Sailor Moon was also a fusion. Sailor Moon was the first real fighting magical girl team. Combing magical girl and sentai.
Sailor Moon was a clutz (a heroic clutz, but nonetheless a clutz) who won fights largely based on her sparkling tiara and/or her shiney gaudy wand and on force of will. The other Sailor Scouts had some explosive attacks, but you rarely if ever saw the sort of intense and lengthy close quarters combat that are commonplace in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

I would argue that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is the first real fighting magical girl anime.


Quote:
You end up with people complaining about how much moe echii harem crap like Utawarerumono, Fate/Stay Night, Shana, Lucky Star, Azumanga Daioh, Aria, Sketchbook ~Full Colours~, School Days, Higurashi, Hidamari Sketch, Saki, Hayate the Combat Butler, Spice and Wolf, Nanatsuiro Drops and Rumbling Hearts is made. They should make good relaxing action drama comedy romances like Utawarerumono, Fate/Stay Night, Shana, Lucky Star, Azumanga Daioh, Aria, Sketchbook ~Full Colours~, School Days, Higurashi, Hidamari Sketch, Saki, Hayate the Combat Butler, Spice and Wolf, Nanatsuiro Drops and Rumbling Hearts.
My point is that for the people who are turned off by moe and/or ecchi and/or harem, the presence of good action and/or drama and/or comedy and/or romance is not always enough to overcome the turning off aspects of the anime.

Put another way - if you were to take, say, half of the anime you listed, removed the moe ecchi harem aspect from just that half, you could then promote that half to a more general audience, and I honestly think that this would benefit all the titles more.

Ecchi, harem, and moe fans couldn't get their desired entertainment just anywhere, and hence casually float from one title to the next with out becoming particularly attached to either one of them in particular, but would rather flock in greater numbers towards those particular titles that still did have ecchi, harem, and moe. They'd still get what they want, just in a reduced number of titles - still enough titles to meet what they want though, I suspect. And they may even be more likely to buy the DVDs of these titles since their ecchi, harem, and moe content is now at least a little bit more unique, and not so common place. It's a basic rule of economics that the more common place any one particular type of product is, the less monetary worth each such individual product tends to have. This is why any type or genre of entertainment has a saturation point - ecchi harem moe is reaching that saturation point, if it hasn't already exceeded it.

Going back to my half/half suggestion, with such an approach, people who are turned off by ecchi, harem, and moe would now have a significant number of prominent titles that they can watch which would be free of ecchi, harem, and moe, and hence more of these people would be drawn to the titles that lack them.

Sounds win/win to me.


Special note: I personally don't think that moe is the problem at all - some people are tired of it because its everywhere, but I don't think it's make-or-break for many people; sexual fanservice is though - it really is; I know a lot of people who didn't get into a particular anime title that they otherwise liked, or almost certainly would have liked, because they were turned off by the sexual fanservice.




Quote:
Originally Posted by X10A Freedom
At the end of the day, it's all about case-by-case, balance, and how good a sense the production stuff have. Overlapping genres to an extent imo can improve the viewing experience.

To an extent, yes, it's fine. However, to me, this is the ideal situation...

You can have a few fusion titles that attract fans of different genres. But it's good to have an anime like the Original Mobile Suit Gundam with Amuro Ray/Char Aznable to appeal to people that just want mecha, and it's good to have an anime like Sailor Moon or Card Captor Sakura to appeal to people that just want magical girls, and it's good to have an anime like DBZ to appeal to people that just want shonen.

There's people who are fans of one, or maybe two, particular types of anime, and that's it. I've talked to some mecha/Gundam fans that, for example, can't bring themselves to watch Code Geass - just too much other stuff in it. What's the new mecha anime for these people? Currently, they've drifted away from anime - they could easily be brought back by a title like the original Mobile Suit Gundam.


Quote:

Going back on topic...would removing fanservice alone urge the average consumer to start buying the DVDs?

For some titles, yes, I think so. I wouldn't want to see fanservice removed across the board - then you'd simply sacrifice a large fanbase entirely - bad move. But there's also a potential fanbase out there - I've talked to some of these people; they were big anime fans in the 80s and/or 90s, and the recent trend towards everything having fanservice is a real turn off for them. It's shrinking the total anime fan base at a time when we might need that fan base to grow.


Quote:
We know high quality, animated movies without the fanservice may indeed sell (Ghibli, Pixar, Disney) but will ordinary animated series be able to compete with primetime TV shows (AI, Grey's, LOST etc.)
I could see an anime show with little-to-no fanservice, marketed well to a general audience, achieving very good ratings, yes. Some of that's just speculation, though, I will admit.


Quote:
...as those are the shows that the "normal" people watch - or should producers just keep to fanservice to serve a proven source on income - the Japanese Otaku?

If you strictly keep to your "proven source on income", you're going to shrink and possibly die. As a Star Trek fan, I know this firsthand. At some point, you have to start trying to appeal to a broader audience.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-06-28 at 06:39.
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Old 2009-06-28, 06:36   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sailor Moon was a clutz (a heroic clutz, but nonetheless a clutz) who won fights largely based on her sparkling tiara and/or her shiney gaudy wand and on force of will. The other Sailor Scouts had some explosive attacks, but you rarely if ever saw the sort of intense and lengthy close quarters combat that are commonplace in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

I would argue that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is the first real fighting magical girl anime.
Although to the majority, it is Sailor Moon who is known as the First Magical GirL anime. Sailor Moon is like the star icon for the Magical Girl theme.

Edit: And an important part of Magic girl anime/cartoon was that they always have a detailed magical transformation
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Old 2009-06-28, 07:28   Link #95
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The final Sailor Moon season - the Galaxia season - did, but I don't recall the other Sailor Moon seasons having much sexual fanservice. And the final Sailor Moon season was the only one to not get the English dub treatment, IIRC.

Panty shots, OTOH, are clear-cut sexual fanservice in everybody's eyes.
There were a couple of panty shots in the earlier seasons too. They were cut out of the dubs though. Plus some of the S MotDs wore basically nothing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I would argue that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is the first real fighting magical girl anime.
Actually before Sailor Moon most magical girl anime were about normal girls who used magic to solve normal problems - things like keeping their secret identities secret and helping random people.
Anyway Pretty Cure came out before Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha as well which is probably just as actiony.

My last two paragraphs however were more a condemnation of other people who use the words moe, ecchi and harem as the buzzwords to complain about the demise of the industry. In my experience many of the people who say these things like shows that others would place in these categories. So you can end up with two different people using the same words to complain about completely different shows.

Although really unless you're actually familiar with the concept of fanservice a lot of fanservice can come off as completely innocent.
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Old 2009-06-28, 07:28   Link #96
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I think you should read my previous post, Triple R.
The shows you praise are all childrens' shows, and you're comparing them with the adult otaku market and then saying "recent trend towards everything having fanservice" which is extremely silly.

There are plenty of children's shows still being made!
One Piece, Naruto, Shugo Chara, Net Ghost Pipopa, Inazama Eleven, PreCure, Jewel Pets, Cross Game, to name just a few recent ones. There's no shortage of these.

The only thing that's changed is that there is much less "fanservice" on normal TV these days due to...well I don't know what happened exactly, Americanification? In any case, the days when you could broadcast Ranma 1/2 on normal TV are long gone. Even the new Dragonball Kai broadcast is censored.

There were a gazillion boob-filled OVAs in the 80s and 90s. Are you just ignoring all of those? Those are what grew into the late-night market, which is tamer in comparison.

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I think, what you're actually experiencing is, you've grown up, and are looking for things beyond children's cartoons, but when you look at adult-targeted cartoons, you discover a lot of them contain stuff you don't like. You would have experienced the same thing if you'd looked at the OVA market back whe you were watching Sailor Moon, it's just you weren't paying attention at the time (or didn't have the internet to give you easy access to information).
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:15   Link #97
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I think you should read my previous post, Triple R.
Asf, there were plenty of adults that watched Dragon Ball Z. When I first went to College at the age of 18, there was more than a few of us at that age that did. We frequently talked about the episodes amongst ourselves.

I also know adults who enjoyed Digimon and Pokemon, although I personally wasn't interested in them.

Certainly, many adults bought and played various Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon video games, including myself.

You're drawing a bit of a false distinction in my mind.

What I'm doing is comparing the most well-known anime titles of this decade with the most well-known anime titles of the previous decade, to help gauge what trends we may be seeing in the anime industry. There's nothing silly about that, in my opinion.


Quote:

There are plenty of children's shows still being made!
One Piece, Naruto, Shugo Chara, Net Ghost Pipopa, Inazama Eleven, PreCure, Jewel Pets, Cross Game, to name just a few recent ones. There's no shortage of these.

Outside of One Piece and Naruto, I'm not even aware of the rest of these. DBZ may have been aimed at a younger demographic, but it had loads of adults fans, even to this day. Given my complete unawareness of all but two on your list here, I suspect that these anime shows may be for kids and kids alone.

What I'm decrying, in part, is a lack of an anime show that can appeal to all, or most, age groups; Naruto possibly being the one exception.


Quote:

The only thing that's changed is that there is much less "fanservice" on normal TV these days due to...well I don't know what happened exactly, Americanification? In any case, the days when you could broadcast Ranma 1/2 on normal TV are long gone. Even the new Dragonball Kai broadcast is censored.

What you might be seeing is a division into two extremes - the shows aimed at kids becoming increasingly kiddy for American television, and the shows aimed at adults becoming increasingly adult in the sense of more ecchi and harem.

The OP mentioned Astro Boy - Astro Boy was aimed at kids, but it had mature themes that could be appreciated by adult viewers. But while it had these mature themes it wasn't loaded down with sexual fanservice and ecchi.

The same holds true for the original Mobile Suit Gundam, I suspect.

In the 90s, you had thought-provoking, intellectually driven shows for adults like Neon Genesis Evangelion and Serial Experiment Lain; both of which had very little fanservice, or ecchi. Well, NGE had a very shrouded sex scene between two actual adults, but that's quite a bit different from the sort of cheap fanservice that a lot of people are turned off by. Also, shows like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Full Metal Alchemist - fanservice wasn't a significant part of any of these, and all three appealed a great deal to adult anime fans.

What is this decade's NGE or Serial Experiment Lain? Where is the more modern Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Full Metal Alchemist? The anime show for adults that actually feels that it doesn't need fanservice to sell itself?

Yes, Faye Valentine's sex appeal was played up, but there was a certain classiness to it - something that made it a bit different than panty shots.

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has many of the same sort of deep philosophical themes of NGE and Lain... but it fails to attract many of the older NGE and Lain fans because the sight of one teenage girl regularly molesting another against her wishes isn't their cup of tea. I don't particularly mind it, but some people do.


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There were a gazillion boob-filled OVAs in the 80s and 90s. Are you just ignoring all of those?
No, but also had your more serious adult-oriented animes like Serial Experiment Lain and Neon Genesis Evangelion.



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I think, what you're actually experiencing is, you've grown up, and are looking for things beyond children's cartoons, but when you look at adult-targeted cartoons, you discover a lot of them contain stuff you don't like. You would have experienced the same thing if you'd looked at the OVA market back whe you were watching Sailor Moon, it's just you weren't paying attention at the time (or didn't have the internet to give you easy access to information).
That may be close to it, yes. I don't mind some fanservice here or there, but it's gets tiresome after awhile. Does every anime for adults have to have sexual fanservice? Does every anime for adults have to have tsunderes?

Variety is the spice of life. It would be nice if anime relearned that.
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:30   Link #98
Slice of Life
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I wish could posrep Asf twice in a row, he has a clearer look on anime and anime history than most people.

Triple_R, "If you don't like it, don't watch it" is a very bad argument when it's used to block criticism of a certain show but I think it s a valid argument when somebody demands to change a whole genre just because he like "only" 30 percent of it.

I've watched neither Geass beyond the first episode nor much of Shana II so I don't know what you mean with "slice of life" in that context which is a chronically ill-defined term in any case. I also don't see all that fanservice you mention (let alone "ecchi" which is a much stronger word). I'm looking at chartfag's Spring 2009 poster at the moment and of the 40 TV shows that actually aired in Spring only Queen's blade was a real ecchi show. Certainly not Chi's Sweet Home. I also can't remember much fanservice in what I've seen of Fullmetal Alchemist, Phantom (an eroge conversion!!!), Ristorante Paradiso, Guin Saga, 07 Ghost, Souten Kuoro, and the list goes on. Maybe our standards are different but I remember James Kirk doing some green-skinned chick in Star Trek so I assume you're not too puritan. Then again, reading something like this ...
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Let me be clear on something - nude bodies entirely immersed in bright light so that you can't see anything other than an outline doesn't strike Joe Blow Average as anything to get sexually titillated over. And one-piece bathing suits (which is basically what the Sailor Scouts wore along with their skirts), while sexy, are generally considered much more innocent than skimpier two-piece bathing suits. Simply put, while some fanservice fans may see the above as "sexual fanservice", to most people, I think, it's not something to even bat an eyelash at. In some ways then, it's perhaps ideal - some fanservice fans can find it sexually titillating while people not into sexual fanservice can look at it and don't see anything all that sexual to it. Panty shots, OTOH, are clear-cut sexual fanservice in everybody's eyes.
... I'm not sure if I understand your standards at all. I surely find the silhouette naked female body more "titillating" than striped panties.

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First is the trend of "give it a little bit of each and every anime genre in the hopes we'll net every anime fan".
When you're trying to create a popular piece that's what you do in any medium. And it works every time. Maybe you should just stay clear of the mainstream?

Also, you seem to assume the anime industry could simply expand their audience if they did the "right" thing (in your POV). It's not so simple due to the low status anime has outside of the otaku community. They try it with Noitamina. But you surely can't reach the mainstream by producing more giant robot shows. But in no way you can draw parallels to Hollywood because society doesn't declare you an outcast for watching any Hollywood movie that isnt on their white list.

As for the self-referencing, I don't like it either. But there aren't that much shows that rely on it, Lucky Star is probably the worst example ... it's also totally unfunny because you expect to get at least one reference per minute. But in most anime you simple don't see it if you don't recognize it. So no harm done. Star Trek is a bad example BTW. "Self-referencing" is a bit ill-termed. Star Trek really referenced itself. Lucky Star didn't. When you build a rich uinverse you have to make use of it for the sake of internal logic. And that's also the appeal of it. Yes, it becomes more and more impenetrable to outsiders and that's why you simply have to put it at rest at some point instead of trying to have the cake and eat it. As for US sci-fi Farscape would be an example that was firing off references left and right, or to be more exact: Crichton did. (It also depended heavily on fan-service).

EDIT for your last post: NGE wasn't heavy on fanservice? COME ON!
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Last edited by Slice of Life; 2009-06-28 at 09:41.
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:50   Link #99
Oppius
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When a product getting more and more popular, the company that made it will overmilked its worth and become something we never recognize anymore.

Anime is much like that. Compare the shows from 1960's and present day and you will get what I said. Then, like it or not, anime are just for kids but as anime fans get older and older, they put more adult stuffs which is 'abusing' the product they knew and love.

I also don't know what the first car ever made looks like today...
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Old 2009-06-28, 11:32   Link #100
Asf
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First, I want to apologize for being needlessly antagonistic in my last post. I think I was just pouting about the lack of attention for my previous post. Sorry about that.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I certainly didn’t mean to imply adults shouldn’t enjoy kids’ cartoons. I’m in my 30s and one of my favorite shows on right now is Shugo Chara.

But you compared the children’s market of last century with the adult market of this century and implied some kind of change-over-time because of it, so I wanted to point out that doesn’t really make sense to do.

In your most recent post you seem to have moved on from the topic of trends in fanservice to the topic of modern masterpiece shows or the lack thereof, which is a whole other topic that I’ll leave alone, hehe. (Though I hear Dennou Coil and Noein may be worth looking into if you liked Lain.)

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm not even aware of the rest of these.
I think, probably then, you may currently lack enough familiarity to really make judgments regarding trends in Japanese animation. (If anything can be called this generation’s Sailor Moon, PreCure is it.)

I’m gonna guess a little here and presume that your exposure is heavily influenced by a particular set of websites/forums you frequent, and that those places have a decent number of very vocal otaku who make a lot of noise about their current beloved moe-moe characters in K-ON! or DAT ASS in Queen’s Blade or whatever, but I think that’s just suffering from selection bias. (Maybe it’s not trends in anime, but rather trends in English-speaking fandom on the internet that you’re noticing?)
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