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Old 2009-08-10, 03:26   Link #481
Ithekro
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Things that nearly get him killed (Mikuru Beam)? Doubtful.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:27   Link #482
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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
Cannot travel past isn't the same as cannot travel to...
They go back 3 years into the past, the same time as the where the barrier and time-quake first happened. I'm not seeing anything to say this isn't the cause. If you have any evidence, please present it.
If the drawing were the begining of everything, How Kyon traveled before it? happens?

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I don't see how this is any better than my theory. Especially considering that Kyon states right at the very start how he wants all this to happen, yet would prefer to remain as a side character. Hence Haruhi appearing to be the target for all this.
It is better because it fit better with which everyone states on the book.

Also, you completly ignored my post.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:29   Link #483
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But was something like that right? Crazy stuff being reasonable with absurd theorys? Like the very agile pervert.
That's exactly the sort of thing Battler comes out with, yeah, like the 'small bombs in the food'.

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I believe I just demonstrated some of it.
It's just the Kyon Theory all over again. Not much evidence other than wild speculation.

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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
Cannot travel past isn't the same as cannot travel to...
They go back 3 years into the past, the same time as the where the barrier and time-quake first happened. I'm not seeing anything to say this isn't the cause. If you have any evidence, please present it.
Nice comeback, except that they travel to BEFORE Kyon drew the symbol on the ground.

Assuming the past was cut off the moment the symbol was drawn and the message to Orihime and Hikoboshi was sent... yeah, no, not seeing it, sorry.

Besides, Nagato is already there, in her apartment. She's probably been there a few months already.

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I don't see how this is any better than my theory. Especially considering that Kyon states right at the very start how he wants all this to happen, yet would prefer to remain as a side character. Hence Haruhi appearing to be the target for all this.
Volume 2.

Unless you think that Kyon really does want cherry blossoms to bloom in early November or cats to talk.

Besides, that line is supposed to be ironic more than anything else. Kyon isn't a side character, he's the main character, and he's rather bitter about it.

Tanigawa originally wrote that prologue with the intent to make Kyon into the Esper, but it somehow didn't work so he went with it. Haruhi was originally a oneshot light novel, remember.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:32   Link #484
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Also, I should probably add that I don't think Haruhi is powerless. I think she's certainly been assigned power, I merely doubt she is the source or the initial target.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:34   Link #485
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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
Also, I should probably add that I don't think Haruhi is powerless. I think she's certainly been assigned power, I merely doubt she is the source or the initial target.
Sasaki.

Sasaki is probably the originator of the power, yeah. Not Kyon.

Hey, wouldn't it be hilarious if Kyon and Sasaki were actually avatars of Hikoboshi and Orihime?
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:36   Link #486
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Tanigawa originally wrote that prologue with the intent to make Kyon into the Esper, but it somehow didn't work so he went with it. Haruhi was originally a oneshot light novel, remember.
And before people start using this as a way to attack Koizumi during Melancholy, keep in mind that the situation of his arrival, as well as a good portion of his early dialogue, would still work if he were a slider. Possibly even better.
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... what is this... I don't even...
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:38   Link #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
Also, I should probably add that I don't think Haruhi is powerless. I think she's certainly been assigned power, I merely doubt she is the source or the initial target.
Ah, this make more sense. But is just wild speculation. By this theory, would think Kyon "gave" his powers to Haruhi when he start to disbelieve crazy things right? Like after meet Sasaki.

The problem would be Haruhi had her powers before Kyon knows Sasaki. Of course, his powers could affect any time, so he could have gave the powers before don't wanting then anymore...

Possible, yeah. But that don't make it true or probable.

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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
And before people start using this as a way to attack Koizumi during Melancholy, keep in mind that the situation of his arrival, as well as a good portion of his early dialogue, would still work if he were a slider. Possibly even better.
True! Hell, even his powers fit. Closed Space are just a kind of anothe dimension.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:38   Link #488
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There's a lot of little story artifacts in Melancholy which Tanigawa used later. Sasaki, for example, is first mentioned there.

I want to see his original concepts for Melancholy though. Would be interesting.
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Old 2009-08-10, 03:54   Link #489
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nice comeback, except that they travel to BEFORE Kyon drew the symbol on the ground.

Assuming the past was cut off the moment the symbol was drawn and the message to Orihime and Hikoboshi was sent... yeah, no, not seeing it, sorry.

Besides, Nagato is already there, in her apartment. She's probably been there a few months already.
They never travel back before that DAY. There is no reason to suppose that it has to be the exact moment when the symbol was finished. Nagato being there isn't exactly a problem either. I don't recall her stating that she didn't appear on that very day, or that the data entity is bound by the same restrictions as Mikuru's faction is.

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Besides, that line is supposed to be ironic more than anything else. Kyon isn't a side character, he's the main character, and he's rather bitter about it.
I'm aware he's the protagonist. I don't see how this makes him bitter, or disproves my stance.

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Ah, this make more sense. But is just wild speculation. By this theory, would think Kyon "gave" his powers to Haruhi when he start to disbelieve crazy things right? Like after meet Sasaki.

The problem would be Haruhi had her powers before Kyon knows Sasaki. Of course, his powers could affect any time, so he could have gave the powers before don't wanting then anymore...
Well, look at it this way:
- The first time Kyon meets Haruhi is three years ago
- The first time Haruhi displays any powers is three years ago

From my perspective, this adds a significant chance towards Haruhi gaining her powers from Kyon. Since why would she choose that specific time to gain vast power she has never shown before? The reason a massive event happens is probably because she's severely unstable mentally.
Sasaki is a separate issue, though she is also tied closely to Kyon. Another thing which indicates Haruhi is not the source. Kyon has a connection with them both, and they have no known connection with each other.

The reason for me believing that a data lifeform is the source of this power is simple. There is no logical reason that a human would spontaneously develop massive, data-based powers from nowhere. Power has to come from somewhere, and they are the only known existence capable of it.
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:03   Link #490
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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
They never travel back before that DAY. There is no reason to suppose that it has to be the exact moment when the symbol was finished. Nagato being there isn't exactly a problem either. I don't recall her stating that she didn't appear on that very day, or that the data entity is bound by the same restrictions as Mikuru's faction is.
The time is not divided by DAYS! The time traveled to a time before Haruhi meet Kyon. For Nagato, there is no reason for her to be there before Haruhi display any power.

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Well, look at it this way:
- The first time Kyon meets Haruhi is three years ago
- The first time Haruhi displays any powers is three years ago
No. Kyon meet Haruhi on his his first ear at Hight-School. The same don't go for Haruhi, thoug. Anyway, You are mixing cause and effect. Even if that was they day. Many other things also happened. I could say that Haruhi gained her powers from Orihime and Hikoboshi, for exemple.

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From my perspective, this adds a significant chance towards Haruhi gaining her powers from Kyon. Since why would she choose that specific time to gain vast power she has never shown before? The reason a massive event happens is probably because she's severely unstable mentally.
Sasaki is a separate issue, though she is also tied closely to Kyon. Another thing which indicates Haruhi is not the source. Kyon has a connection with them both, and they have no known connection with each other.
When was said she only gained her powers 3 years ago? As far as I know, it was the first time she used it. There is a difference. That is why I believe the baseball day was THE day.

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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
The reason for me believing that a data lifeform is the source of this power is simple. There is no logical reason that a human would spontaneously develop massive, data-based powers from nowhere. Power has to come from somewhere, and they are the only known existence capable of it.
Eh, why not?
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:11   Link #491
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The time is not divided by DAYS! The time traveled to a time before Haruhi meet Kyon. For Nagato, there is no reason for her to be there before Haruhi display any power.
The block can be set however the person who set is wishes. Like I said, there is nothing to suggest that it isn't set to block any access to a time period before Tanabata.


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No. Kyon meet Haruhi on his his first ear at Hight-School. The same don't go for Haruhi, thoug. Anyway, You are mixing cause and effect. Even if that was they day. Many other things also happened. I could say that Haruhi gained her powers from Orihime and Hikoboshi, for exemple.
The first period in time Kyon is known to meet Haruhi is that day. You could say that she gained her powers from stars, but my theory has a hell of a lot more evidence to support it.

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When was said she only gained her powers 3 years ago? As far as I know, it was the first time she used it. There is a difference. That is why I believe the baseball day was THE day.



Eh, why not?
Possibly, but I think the evidence stacks largely against that. Especially considering that Sasaki has similar powers, and has never even met her before. Both however know Kyon. As soon as Kyon transferred power to Haruhi, she blew a fuse in reality. Sasaki however did nothing, since she's that type of person.
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:25   Link #492
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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
The block can be set however the person who set is wishes. Like I said, there is nothing to suggest that it isn't set to block any access to a time period before Tanabata.
Yeah, nothing seggesting. Poor Mikuru, she is nothing now(well, she always was...). Mikuru said, in her infodump scene, that she can't travel before the time-quake that happened 3 years ago. She said hthat the time-quake was caused by Haruhi. Haruhi can only cause it after have her powers. Ergo, that Tanabata was not when gained them.

Quote:
The first period in time Kyon is known to meet Haruhi is that day. You could say that she gained her powers from stars, but my theory has a hell of a lot more evidence to support it.
Yeah. And 'Haruhi is God' theory has even more evidences. See my point?

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Possibly, but I think the evidence stacks largely against that. Especially considering that Sasaki has similar powers, and has never even met her before. Both however know Kyon. As soon as Kyon transferred power to Haruhi, she blew a fuse in reality. Sasaki however did nothing, since she's that type of person.
Sasaki do not haave similar powers. Kyonko only believe she should have. Yeah, this probably involnes Kyon, somehow. Which evidences, btw?
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:26   Link #493
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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
and they have no known connection with each other.
Actually. A couple lines in Vol. 10 suggests that they MIGHT have known each other.

Childhood friends, maybe?

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Power has to come from somewhere, and they are the only known existence capable of it.
The Tanabata gods are the only gods that Haruhi herself refers to as "gods".

Given BLR's clear importance... that says something.

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The first period in time Kyon is known to meet Haruhi is that day. You could say that she gained her powers from stars, but my theory has a hell of a lot more evidence to support it.
You state you have 'evidence', but whenever we contradict you, you simply ignore or circle around it.

Nagato has no reason to be on Earth, or even exist, before the 3YA event.

Ergo, BLR is AFTER the 3YA event, which must take place... maybe a week after that game at Koushien?
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:56   Link #494
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Yeah, nothing seggesting. Poor Mikuru, she is nothing now(well, she always was...). Mikuru said, in her infodump scene, that she can't travel before the time-quake that happened 3 years ago. She said hthat the time-quake was caused by Haruhi. Haruhi can only cause it after have her powers. Ergo, that Tanabata was not when gained them.
I already addressed this. She can't travel to a time BEFORE the time-quake. On my theory Tanabata is not before the time-quake, it IS the time-quake. Mikuru has never stated that they cannot travel TO the time when it happened.

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Sasaki do not haave similar powers. Kyonko only believe she should have. Yeah, this probably involnes Kyon, somehow. Which evidences, btw?
Yes she does. As demonstrated by the fact that she has sealed realities like Haruhi. Currently Haruhi has MORE power than Sasaki, I believe due to Kyon choosing her instead.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually. A couple lines in Vol. 10 suggests that they MIGHT have known each other.

Childhood friends, maybe?
This is a possibility I haven't discounted, and it would damage the Kyon theory if proven. However, all there is at the moment is a tiny hint.

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The Tanabata gods are the only gods that Haruhi herself refers to as "gods".

Given BLR's clear importance... that says something.
What does it say?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You state you have 'evidence', but whenever we contradict you, you simply ignore or circle around it.
I believe I have been addressing everything, hence how this discussion has continued.

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Nagato has no reason to be on Earth, or even exist, before the 3YA event.

Ergo, BLR is AFTER the 3YA event, which must take place... maybe a week after that game at Koushien?
She is created by an entity that essentially exists outside of time. It can place her in any time frame it chooses. Her being sent to a time before the data explosion isn't impossible from my understanding.
My theory doesn't even align with yours on this matter anyway, and them having foreknowledge of an event isn't impossible. One might even go so far as to say that the data entity intentionally caused this event to create stimulus.


[edit] I'm going to sleep now.
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Old 2009-08-10, 05:25   Link #495
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Things Tanigawa has said proves that he doesn't think about what he's writing as much as some fans do, and as an amateur writer myself I can see where he's coming from.

I doubt he plans out a lot of stuff years in advance as much as looks back through what he's already written for possible plot hooks. I do the same thing.

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So you mean suddenly, out of nowhere, Haruhi gained her power because she wants to send a signal for the Tanabata gods?
No, he's saying that Kyon gave her the powers right then and there. Which is ridiculous if you actually think about it.
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Old 2009-08-10, 05:32   Link #496
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Actually, when Kyon is told about the three years ago, its early May at the latest. This suggests Haruhi's powers awoke around the beginning of her first year at middle school. BLR takes place in July, two months later. While the time travelers might not be precise with their information, I'm more certain of Yuki's suggestion of an "explosion of data" being exactly three years ago.

There is nothing that says Kyon is god...most things point to him being the key to god's powers. Being able to turn her powers on or turn them off. That is about the only possible evidence that the time quake was Mikuru and Kyon going back in time in the first place (and causing a paradox by effecting the timeline like Mikuru says can't happen). However one questions is if Haruhi has her powers yet? Why is Yuki on Earth already if Haruhi hasn't had her explosion of data? Did she arrive exactly when Kyon arrived at the appartment with Mikuru? Did Itsuki and the other espers awaken that night knowing that Haruhi was the source of their power and thus be chained to a young girls emotional state for the next three years?

Does that make Kyon god? No.
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Old 2009-08-10, 06:21   Link #497
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Things Tanigawa has said proves that he doesn't think about what he's writing as much as some fans do, and as an amateur writer myself I can see where he's coming from.

I doubt he plans out a lot of stuff years in advance as much as looks back through what he's already written for possible plot hooks. I do the same thing.



No, he's saying that Kyon gave her the powers right then and there. Which is ridiculous if you actually think about it.
Ah, I understand now.

Haruhi gains her power through meeting Kyon 3 years ago and causes a time quake in the past?

So yeah...
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Old 2009-08-10, 06:58   Link #498
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From the very first novel:



The first chronologic episode also has this dialogue. Around 11:54 min.
Thank you for that. I'm going to have to re-read or re-watch that in context. However, if Haruhi and Kyon mean the same thing by the word "interesting", then it clearly shows Haruhi as at least open to lesbianism.


Quote:
For the Mikuru being a toy, I don't remeber which chapter was, but was on novel2. You must remember, since you read recently.
Yes... I was asking about Haruhi's statement pertaining to sexual orientation, not the statement of Mikuru being like a toy to Haruhi.

Thanks for the help.


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Pre-SOS Brigade Haruhi, way back in Melancholy. Her only requirements were "Not an ordinary human," followed by stating that gender doesn't matter.

*e* Beaten to it again
Thanks all the same. Perhaps you'll win the race one day.
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Old 2009-08-10, 07:19   Link #499
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Thank you for that. I'm going to have to re-read or re-watch that in context. However, if Haruhi and Kyon mean the same thing by the word "interesting", then it clearly shows Haruhi as at least open to lesbianism.
They are talking about boyfriends. So, yeah. She was saying she had no problem about having a girlfriend if the girl be an alien/time-traveler/ESPer/etc. That is why I said bi-curious.

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Thanks for the help.
You are welcome

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Originally Posted by Nudvik View Post
I already addressed this. She can't travel to a time BEFORE the time-quake. On my theory Tanabata is not before the time-quake, it IS the time-quake. Mikuru has never stated that they cannot travel TO the time when it happened.
How you concept of time works? Anyway, the time-quake was caused by Haruhi right? It can only start after she gained her powers. So, by your theory, it wahs only after she met Kyon.

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Yes she does. As demonstrated by the fact that she has sealed realities like Haruhi. Currently Haruhi has MORE power than Sasaki, I believe due to Kyon choosing her instead.
Yeah. True my mistake(however, nothing wsa said about her being capable of altering the world). Still, don't proves anything. Also, you still haven't give me you evidences about the baseball don't being the day.

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She is created by an entity that essentially exists outside of time. It can place her in any time frame it chooses. Her being sent to a time before the data explosion isn't impossible from my understanding.
My theory doesn't even align with yours on this matter anyway, and them having foreknowledge of an event isn't impossible. One might even go so far as to say that the data entity intentionally caused this event to create stimulus.
True. But then, why she is not around since Haruhi born?
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Old 2009-08-10, 07:44   Link #500
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They are talking about boyfriends. So, yeah. She was saying she had no problem about having a girlfriend if the girl be an alien/time-traveler/ESPer/etc. That is why I said bi-curious.
Hhhmmm... straight, but willing to go lesbian for a female alien/time-traveler/ESPer. Yes... I think that's what I'll go with for now. It takes everything nicely into account, I think.
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