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Old 2009-08-10, 10:43   Link #501
Heatth
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I was justing rereading Charmed at First Sight LOVER! and found this useful quote for the shiping discussion:

Spoiler for Charmed at First Sight LOVER!:


Kyon do not help here. He clearly states he would feel uneasy if someone start dating Mikuru or Nagato. He also says he don't need to worry about Haruhi bacause it would never happen.

Yeah.
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:53   Link #502
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Oy, I got a ton of things to contribute...

The Snow Mountain Pattern
It is my beleif that the fake-people who visited the rooms were NOT a result of Yuki. Keep in mind that she's CUT OFF from the IDTE at this point, so her data manipulation is heavily impaired. Also, she's spending most of her processing power towards finding an escape. HENCE THE PATTERN. The escape program was indeed created by Yuki, but she didn't have the necessary information to complete her equation. Through her observations, she was able to recognize certain planar consistancies the Canopy Domain was using, and was able to compile a program based on these patterns. However, the final pattern came when the Canopy Domain created the replicas to go into the rooms. Why they did this has yet to be determined (or why they captured the SOS Brigade in the first place), but it probably has to do with provoking a response from each of the members for observation.

By this time, Yuki's program was nearly complete, and she had several data sets to choose from that would complete the program (the other tiles). The final pattern she needed was the "4", but by then, she was way too exhausted to complete it herself. I do beleive the Canopy Domain's creations were of each member's most romantic interest, in order to produce the strongest reaction.

Haruhi vs Sasaki

Again, I hold to my opinion that Sasaki was never the true god. Take note that Kyouko and the others only approached her AFTER Sasaki ran into Haruhi and made her jealous. I beleive it was at this point where Sasaki was bestowed with powers that rival Haruhi, because Haruhi herself identified her as a rival.

I also beleive that Sasaki hadn't met Kyouko and the rest until after that meeting. After all, when she ran into Kyon the next weekend, she described her relationship to the others as "acquiantances who just met". To me, it seems like Kyouko was just waiting for something like this to happen, so that she could tear the world-altering powers away from Haruhi and give them to someone more stable. And the Canopy Domain probably can't observe Haruhi because of an agreement with the IDTE, but Sasaki would be fair game. Fujiwara just wants to mess with Mikuru, so this would be his way.

What also leads me to beleive this is the case is the lack of response from Koizumi before now. Don't you think he would have mentioned before that Kyon's middle school friend ALSO had god-like abilities?
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:53   Link #503
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Staying on the volumes 9/10 trip, only one timeline will remain, and that will be alpha, since they have an apparent slider and still generally come across more as the "control" timeline. How exactly the unlucky one (beta) "bites it" will be the point of the story. And hopefully worth the wait. I'm hoping for "violent and flashy" myself (with a healthy dose of "mindfuck"), but I wouldn't be surprised if we got some kind of merging...
Hmmm... I remember you (or maybe it wasn't you, but had a similar name at least) posted a synopsis of your speculated Vol.10 plot over at the Baka-Tsuki forums more than a year ago. I forgot what particular thread it was, but it made me go "ohoho, this is could work. Very plausible indeed".

On the Kyon Theory... I've always believed that the motives and actions of the three factions strongly disprove this claim:
  • Aliens. If Kyon's the God, and he gave Haruhi her powers, then the Data Entity would have surely figured this out and would be observing Kyon instead. The possibility of them being created by Haruhi/Kyon is also ruled out, as the Entity predates her/him by a pretty large margin. Now, one could argue that their observing Haruhi is just a cover-up and they are actually observing Kyon, but what do these aliens gain from such a roundabout manner of observation?
  • Time Travelers. Why send someone over to watch Haruhi only to lure Kyon in? Why not just tell him straight away then? Kyon's personality isn't as intimidating as Haruhi's anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. There is also the fact that Mikuru(Big) tells Kyon to not get too close to her, hinting that it'll lead to world-altering complications (Melancholy). If Kyon really was the God, then they would have no problems with this (being time travelers, they should know who is what, specially Mikuru(Big)). There is also the case with Fujiwara, yet he has not yet revealed any worthwhile information.
  • Espers. This is the faction that Haruhi truly spawned. Here, Koizumi spits it out: Kyon is a normal human, and just so happens to be caught up in all this mess as Haruhi's chosen one (the one predetermined to be John Smith, as the time travelers would put it). He says that Kyon is merely a key (common knowledge in these parts). But as we all know, Koizumi's words are rarely honest.
And then comes Dissociation and the introduction of the rival Organization and Sasaki. Vol.9, I believe, contains the roots of the current Kyon Theory. Building on the mysteriousness of the Organization, we are presented with the idea of another God. Frankly, I am a believer of the theory that makes Haruhi and Sasaki "split personalities of a single entity". What, with one being otherworldly and straight to the point while being extremely aggressive, and the other being down to earth and elaborate while continuing to be a passive observer or critic.

I may have gone off on a tangent there, so summarizing what I was trying to say:
Kyon Theory is loosely based on the inauthenticity of Koizumi Itsuki and all the coincidences that were really not. It holds till now only because Dissociation introduced the need for Kyon to be in the Anti-SOS Brigade to transfer Haruhi's power over to Sasaki. The method itself has not yet been speculated on or discussed in detail mostly because of the indefinite postponement of Surprise (Volume 10).
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:04   Link #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
I was justing rereading Charmed at First Sight LOVER! and found this useful quote for the shiping discussion:

Spoiler for Charmed at First Sight LOVER!:


Kyon do not help here. He clearly states he would feel uneasy if someone start dating Mikuru or Nagato. He also says he don't need to worry about Haruhi bacause it would never happen.

Yeah.

Kaisos may get upset with me for this, but... Kyon is still showing much more comfort over the idea of someone else going out with Haruhi than he is with someone else going out with Mikuru and Yuki.

Actually, Kyon's comments on Mikuru and Yuki made me laugh - he almost sounded like Tatewaki Kuno (from Ranma 1/2) talking about Akane Tendo and the pig-tailed girl.

Yes, Kyon, you can have them BOTH!
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:05   Link #505
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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
The Snow Mountain Pattern

By this time, Yuki's program was nearly complete, and she had several data sets to choose from that would complete the program (the other tiles). The final pattern she needed was the "4", but by then, she was way too exhausted to complete it herself. I do beleive the Canopy Domain's creations were of each member's most romantic interest, in order to produce the strongest reaction.
And it just happen to help the puzzle? I find it very doubtful. The person who the SOS members met, the 4 pattern and Nagato's puzzle are all related. It never be ure if was her who did anything, but it would be strange if not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
Haruhi vs Sasaki

Again, I hold to my opinion that Sasaki was never the true god. Take note that Kyouko and the others only approached her AFTER Sasaki ran into Haruhi and made her jealous. I beleive it was at this point where Sasaki was bestowed with powers that rival Haruhi, because Haruhi herself identified her as a rival.

I also beleive that Sasaki hadn't met Kyouko and the rest until after that meeting. After all, when she ran into Kyon the next weekend, she described her relationship to the others as "acquiantances who just met". To me, it seems like Kyouko was just waiting for something like this to happen, so that she could tear the world-altering powers away from Haruhi and give them to someone more stable. And the Canopy Domain probably can't observe Haruhi because of an agreement with the IDTE, but Sasaki would be fair game. Fujiwara just wants to mess with Mikuru, so this would be his way.

What also leads me to beleive this is the case is the lack of response from Koizumi before now. Don't you think he would have mentioned before that Kyon's middle school friend ALSO had god-like abilities?
Koizumi may don't know. He don't seen to believe, at last. His faction and Kyoko's are like two rival religious group. Averything about Sasaki is too vague, we really need novel10 to make sure. It is the same story, after all.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:12   Link #506
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Kaisos may get upset with me for this, but... Kyon is still showing much more comfort over the idea of someone else going out with Haruhi than he is with someone else going out with Mikuru and Yuki.
He felt obligated to mention her, though, which seems to remain consistent with him being in denial.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:13   Link #507
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And it just happen to help the puzzle? I find it very doubtful. The person who the SOS members met, the 4 pattern and Nagato's puzzle are all related. It never be ure if was her who did anything, but it would be strange if not.
I beleive that yes, every action the Canopy Domain took that manipulated data was observed by Yuki. Eventually, she was able to deduce just what planar maniuplation the Canopy Domain was performing in order to produce the necessary escape program.

You also have to ask, if all they needed was the four pattern, why would Yuki manipulate so much data as to send a fake person to everyone's room, including her own to get such a simple number? She's cut off from the IDTE, so her data manipulation has been greatly decreased. I don't think she had the capability of doing that.

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Koizumi may don't know. He don't seen to believe, at last. His faction and Kyoko's are like two rival religious group. Averything about Sasaki is too vague, we really need novel10 to make sure. It is the same story, after all.
Kyouko said that her faction and Koizumi's met and disagreed on many occasions. I'm certain the Organization would've known Sasaki's identity, had she had the powers before her meeting with Haruhi.

Also, I'm sure Koizumi mentioned that he did a backround check on Kyon's past acquaintances too while performing the one on him. Can't seem to find it now though.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:24   Link #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kaisos may get upset with me for this, but... Kyon is still showing much more comfort over the idea of someone else going out with Haruhi than he is with someone else going out with Mikuru and Yuki.
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
He felt obligated to mention her, though, which seems to remain consistent with him being in denial.
I second spawn here. Also, He makes clear that he don't worry about her having a boyfriend. Is like he is confortable because he know that the possibility do not exist.

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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
You also have to ask, if all they needed was the four pattern, why would Yuki manipulate so much data as to send a fake person to everyone's room, including her own to get such a simple number? She's cut off from the IDTE, so her data manipulation has been greatly decreased. I don't think she had the capability of doing that.
You get me here. However, is still suspicious the pattern just happen to help in the solution.

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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
Kyouko said that her faction and Koizumi's met and disagreed on many occasions. I'm certain the Organization would've known Sasaki's identity, had she had the powers before her meeting with Haruhi.
Don't think so. They may be jsut trying to make it secret. If they are a smaller organization, is better hide things.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:31   Link #509
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I second spawn here. Also, He makes clear that he don't worry about her having a boyfriend. Is like he is confortable because he know that the possibility do not exist.
Yeah, but then he went into "But if it did happen, it would actually be good since it would be good news for the Earth, and Itsuki would be delighted and relieved".

Kyon would like for Haruhi to have a boyfriend. Whether or not he himself feels up to the job is the real question...
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:33   Link #510
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Yeah, but then he went into "But if it did happen, it would actually be good since Itsuki would be delighted and relieved".

Kyon would like for Haruhi to have a boyfriend. Whether or not he himself feels up to the job is the real question...
Rationalization! That river in Egypt is tired of getting wrong numbers

Since when, after all, did Kyon care, in his thoughts, about Itsuki's delight, relief, comfort, etc.? I think that's a flag too.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:37   Link #511
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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
Kyouko said that her faction and Koizumi's met and disagreed on many occasions. I'm certain the Organization would've known Sasaki's identity, had she had the powers before her meeting with Haruhi.

Also, I'm sure Koizumi mentioned that he did a backround check on Kyon's past acquaintances too while performing the one on him. Can't seem to find it now though.
Koizumi's line was actually covered in the anime (Melancholy III, the one with the big reveals). On Sasaki, I'm thinking that the Organization is in denial of the possible existence of another God, almost as if it was heresy to see her as one.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:38   Link #512
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Rationalization! That river in Egypt is tired of getting wrong numbers

Since when, after all, did Kyon care, in his thoughts, about Itsuki's delight, relief, comfort, etc.? I think that's a flag too.
He might not care about Itsuki, but I do think he cares about the world as a whole.

Actually, this makes a certain degree of sense to me. Kyon would like Haruhi to have a boyfriend. He's going to hang out with her and be close to her to ensure that she eventually gets a boyfriend - himself, if necessary. But he's really hoping that somebody takes the burden away from him.

Kyon is technically right - romantic bliss could conceivably do a lot of good for Haurhi, which is good for the world, which is good for Kyon's friends.

It would be kind of funny if the novels basically ends on the note of "For the good of the world, I will shoulder the incredible burden of being Haruhi's boyfriend. This is no small sacrifice, and yet I will never be lionized or memorialized for it. Oh, woe is me... but I must stay strong for the good of the world."
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:38   Link #513
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, but then he went into "But if it did happen, it would actually be good since it would be good news for the Earth, and Itsuki would be delighted and relieved".

Kyon would like for Haruhi to have a boyfriend. Whether or not he himself feels up to the job is the real question...
Stroked what is not in my quote and underline inportant things. Good news for Earth is different then good news for him.
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:40   Link #514
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It would be kind of funny if the novels basically ends on the note of "For the good of the world, I will shoulder the incredible burden of being Haruhi's boyfriend. This is no small sacrifice, and yet I will never be lionized or memorialized for it. Oh, woe is me... but I must stay strong for the good of the world."
Funnier if he's still lying to himself about liking his role in saving the world.
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Old 2009-08-10, 13:09   Link #515
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On that subject, I'm certain Haruhi is bi, or at least bi-curious. I can only imagine how she'd have reacted if she'd gotten a visit from Mikuru-chan!
She openly came out as bisexual in one of her first conversations with Kyon, why are people still questioning Haruhi's sexuality?
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Old 2009-08-10, 13:23   Link #516
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Kyon is technically right - romantic bliss could conceivably do a lot of good for Haurhi, which is good for the world, which is good for Kyon's friends.
I disagree. Sure, there are great benefits for being romantically involved, but there's a flipside to the coin. Would you be willing to handle the repurcussions of Haruhi, a teenaged girl, having a bad fight with her boyfriend? I think it's much safer to keep her single.
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Old 2009-08-10, 14:16   Link #517
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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
By this time, Yuki's program was nearly complete, and she had several data sets to choose from that would complete the program (the other tiles). The final pattern she needed was the "4", but by then, she was way too exhausted to complete it herself. I do beleive the Canopy Domain's creations were of each member's most romantic interest, in order to produce the strongest reaction.
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And it just happen to help the puzzle? I find it very doubtful. The person who the SOS members met, the 4 pattern and Nagato's puzzle are all related. It never be ure if was her who did anything, but it would be strange if not.
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You get me here. However, is still suspicious the pattern just happen to help in the solution.
... Ever consider the possibility that the Canopy Domain wanted to see if the Brigade could make it out without outside help? In her first infodump of the series, Nagato stated the Data-whatever was already interested in humans before Haruhi came along and sent out that universal flare of hers. Is it really hard to believe that another data-based group of aliens would be interested, as well? Nagato's problems could have been designed so she couldn't just cheat their way out.

Of course, perhaps I'm giving Nagato's designated antagonists a little too much credit here.
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Old 2009-08-10, 14:26   Link #518
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Yeah, but then he went into "But if it did happen, it would actually be good since it would be good news for the Earth, and Itsuki would be delighted and relieved".
He says "somebody"... and since we know the only guy Haruhi's ever been interested in is Kyon...

He's doomed.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It would be kind of funny if the novels basically ends on the note of "For the good of the world, I will shoulder the incredible burden of being Haruhi's boyfriend. This is no small sacrifice, and yet I will never be lionized or memorialized for it. Oh, woe is me... but I must stay strong for the good of the world."
...Yeah, I can see this happening. It's so Kyon.

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I do beleive the Canopy Domain's creations were of each member's most romantic interest, in order to produce the strongest reaction.
If that was true Mikuru would have gotten Kyon, not Haruhi. Unless she's a masochist, I doubt she has much interest in Haruhi...

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Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
Don't you think he would have mentioned before that Kyon's middle school friend ALSO had god-like abilities?
Hmm. Before Kyon meets Sasaki for the second time in Vol. 9, Koizumi mentions that he noticed something about her... as though she was being trailed by light, or something like that.

So, even if she wasn't god-powered at that point, there was definitely something special about her. Unless it's Haruhi's powers at work, or something like that. You'd think Koizumi would recognize that though.

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Of course, perhaps I'm giving Nagato's designated antagonists a little too much credit here.
Judging by how primitive Kuyoh is, they seem to have... issues... communicating with humans.

This reminds me of the theory that the original three groups are, in fact, the bad guys, (though their representatives are good) and the antagonist groups the good guys, although their representatives are, uh, not the best of people.
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Old 2009-08-10, 14:43   Link #519
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He's doomed.
QFT

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This reminds me of the theory that the original three groups are, in fact, the bad guys, (though their representatives are good) and the antagonist groups the good guys, although their representatives are, uh, not the best of people.
I... can't get this out of my head now.
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Old 2009-08-10, 14:44   Link #520
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Judging by how primitive Kuyoh is, they seem to have... issues... communicating with humans.
Which further supports what I said. An unusual puzzle with Kyon(the only ordinary human) in the center of it, basic necessities for survival, as well as anything else they could want outside of contact with people not inside the mansion. Really seems as though they were acting as scientists experimenting on the behavior patterns of another species.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This reminds me of the theory that the original three groups are, in fact, the bad guys, (though their representatives are good) and the antagonist groups the good guys, although their representatives are, uh, not the best of people.
Well, the Data-whatever clearly doesn't think too kindly of Kyon outside of "Haruhi likes him, so he must live," especially after Disappearance. Intrigues pretty much spells out that Mikuru's group is more interested in ensuring their own existence than anything else... and Koizumi is part of a secretive group known only as the "Organization" that is obsessed with a girl with godlike powers.

Meanwhile, the Canopy Domain provided the Brigade with quite a bit of luxury during SMS, Kyouko's group seems interested in trying to give Haruhi's powers to someone a little more emotionally stable, and Fujiwara's group seems to be interested in removing time travel altogether.

Yeah, I'd say that theory would make a lot of sense.
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