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Old 2009-10-18, 09:36   Link #781
Kogetsu Shirogane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
In fact, some of his remarks about Yuki going forward from that point in the series recall Disappearance and he says something telling: he wants to see her smile again, be more emotionally open in the future, but he wants those developments to be from the Yuki he knows, the one he has spent all that time growing with.
All this shows is that he has interest in her emotional development. You don't have to have a romantic interest in someone for that.
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Old 2009-10-18, 09:43   Link #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Eh. Personally I feel like concluding Kyon's not possibly romantically interested in Yuki from the way Disappearance pans out is a bit of a logic fail. I think it's an easy one to make, as well. Amidst the whirlwind of ship discussion that follows at the book's heels, it's easy to get caught up in weighing it mostly along those lines. Kyon's decision to return to the original world had little-to-nothing to do with whether or not he had feelings for Yuki, but rather, was about his nakama. He angsts as he's contemplating the situation over how, despite how Yuki's world has its perks, when it came down to it, the people in it were not the people he had grown to know and love. He was not choosing between Yuki and Haruhi, but choosing between SOS-dan 1 and SOS-dan 2.

In fact, some of his remarks about Yuki going forward from that point in the series recall Disappearance and he says something telling: he wants to see her smile again, be more emotionally open in the future, but he wants those developments to be from the Yuki he knows, the one he has spent all that time growing with.

Now I'm emotionally neutral on this issue, as I don't really care to 'ship' categorically. I'll roll with whatever is best presented in the writing. Disappearance is obviously in part Yuki's love note to Kyon, but Kyon doesn't give her an answer to that part of it one way or another, nor was it even the choice Yuki was asking him to make. She was asking him to make a choice between the normal world he often said he wanted, and the crazy world they lived in. As far as I see, you can't read any acceptance or rejection of Yuki's feelings into his choice.

I also think it's worth noting that Kyon's a bit of a reactionary personality who prefers to stay on center unless stirred into action. His inclination to Haruhi is more obvious than whatever it is he may or may not feel for Yuki because Haruhi engages him directly more, while Yuki, even in her Disappearance incarnation, doesn't really stir up a fuss about her feelings. If Yuki approached him more directly, we'd see a clearer reaction...but it also wouldn't be our Nagato, now would it?
Awesome post, good sir. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who sees it this way!

Excellent points all around; especially over how Kyon's real choice is not between Yuki and Haruhi, but between SOS-dan 1 and SOS dan-2. Yuki-verse has its own Haruhi, after all.
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Old 2009-10-18, 09:44   Link #783
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
All this shows is that he has interest in her emotional development. You don't have to have a romantic interest in someone for that.
I can see how, taken out of context, you might misinterpret what I was saying with that. The statement was meant to emphasize the whole "Kyon wants the 'real' world" point. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Old 2009-10-18, 15:16   Link #784
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Considering Yuki-verse Haruhi would have been much easier for him to handle, going back was his choice. She still would have taken them out to do weird stuff, just nothing weird would ever really happen anymore.

But if one wanted to play shipping, Kyon could have a ponytailed Haruhi wrapped around his finger...very easily in Yuki-verse.
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Old 2009-10-21, 02:17   Link #785
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Regarding Kyon's decision to get back to the "real" world in Disappearance...

While his main motivation may have been to get back to his "real" friends (nakama)... there are other instances where Kyon gives off the fatherly/big brother/best friend vibe when he discovers any kind of emotional growth in Nagato. I think Charmed First Sight Lover is the best example of this.
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Old 2009-10-21, 02:52   Link #786
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Regarding Kyon's decision to get back to the "real" world in Disappearance...

While his main motivation may have been to get back to his "real" friends (nakama)... there are other instances where Kyon gives off the fatherly/big brother/best friend vibe when he discovers any kind of emotional growth in Nagato. I think Charmed First Sight Lover is the best example of this.
Let me play Devil's Advocate here for kicks and ask:

"But are you contending that instances of that and any potential romantic undercurrent are mutually exclusive? If so, why?"

After all, it's pretty much impossible for their to be anything other than a friendly or familial 'vibe' about observing emotional growth as a third party, seeing as romantic vibes only truly exist in the interplay between two people. Part of the tricky thing about deciphering the dynamic between Kyon and Yuki is that due to Yuki's nature, even for Kyon, by far the person closest to her, observation rather than extended emotional interaction is the norm. I'd be cautious about what exclusions are read into platonic friendly actions, because no meaningful romance is defined solely by the acts or thoughts of love.
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Old 2009-10-21, 04:41   Link #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Let me play Devil's Advocate here for kicks and ask:

"But are you contending that instances of that and any potential romantic undercurrent are mutually exclusive? If so, why?"

After all, it's pretty much impossible for their to be anything other than a friendly or familial 'vibe' about observing emotional growth as a third party, seeing as romantic vibes only truly exist in the interplay between two people. Part of the tricky thing about deciphering the dynamic between Kyon and Yuki is that due to Yuki's nature, even for Kyon, by far the person closest to her, observation rather than extended emotional interaction is the norm. I'd be cautious about what exclusions are read into platonic friendly actions, because no meaningful romance is defined solely by the acts or thoughts of love.
Keep grasping at those straws...

Simplified, it pretty much goes like this for Kyon:

Haruhi - romantic interest
Asahina - lust
Nagato - trust
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Old 2009-10-21, 06:43   Link #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Keep grasping at those straws...

Simplified, it pretty much goes like this for Kyon:

Haruhi - denial of romantic interest
Asahina - lust
Nagato - trust
Fixed for you.
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Old 2009-10-21, 06:44   Link #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Keep grasping at those straws...

Simplified, it pretty much goes like this for Kyon:

Haruhi - romantic interest
Asahina - lust
Nagato - trust
Trust strikes me as a rather good basis for a romance...
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Old 2009-10-21, 08:03   Link #790
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a romance/sci-fi...
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Old 2009-10-21, 10:36   Link #791
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Keep grasping at those straws...

Simplified, it pretty much goes like this for Kyon:

Haruhi - romantic interest
Asahina - lust
Nagato - trust
I'd be interested to see more specific arguments articulated for this on your part. Going forward I hope you understand that I'm just looking to provoke thoughtful discussion. Even though the ground of this topic has been trod many times and from various angles, I'm sure there is always some new insight to be gained.

As it stands, I feel like questioning the exclusivity box people put Kyon and Yuki's dynamic in, because if a warm, friendly interest in someone's emotional growth, giving off a 'best friend' vibe were an effective argument against it, how do you in turn justify saying Haruhi's the romantic interest when Kyon actually has similar observations and feelings about Haruhi's maturation over the series? What creates a distinction between the two cases in your eyes?
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Old 2009-10-21, 13:10   Link #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Keep grasping at those straws...

Simplified, it pretty much goes like this for Kyon:

Haruhi - romantic interest
Asahina - lust
Nagato - trust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Trust strikes me as a rather good basis for a romance...
Kyon trusts Haruhi a lot as well, at least from the perspective of Koizumi based upon the conversation they had in "Day of Sagittarius."

And there's no doubt that Kyon trusts Nagato, but how much of that trust is deserved. After all, she did alter the entire universe without consulting Kyon about it. Sure, she gave him a chance to return things to normal, but it still would've been nicer of her to ASK before doing something so drastic.
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Old 2009-10-21, 13:21   Link #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
how do you in turn justify saying Haruhi's the romantic interest when Kyon actually has similar observations and feelings about Haruhi's maturation over the series? What creates a distinction between the two cases in your eyes?
Haruhi is the title character. Also they made out once.
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Old 2009-10-21, 13:51   Link #794
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Haruhi is the title character. Also they made out once.
... When did this happen? In-canon, I mean.

The kiss at the conclusion of the Melancholy arc was a kiss... I wouldn't call it "making out".
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Old 2009-10-21, 13:58   Link #795
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While reading the novels. the picture and discription led me to believe they were making out.
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Old 2009-10-21, 14:02   Link #796
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Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth View Post
While reading the novels. the picture and discription led me to believe they were making out.
Which novel? Which picture/scene?
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Old 2009-10-21, 14:05   Link #797
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Which novel? Which picture/scene?
Probably this one, even though you said you wouldn't count it as making out.
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Old 2009-10-21, 14:10   Link #798
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Probably this one, even though you said you wouldn't count it as making out.
Thanks for that. I was going by the anime version of the kiss. The novel version looks a fair bit more erotic, I'll admit. Shame that KyoAni toned this down.

I probably wouldn't call it making out, but it's closer to that than the anime kiss was.
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Old 2009-10-21, 14:24   Link #799
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his mouth is friggin open. She's all "O_O" and he's like "IMMA KISS YOU K"
wish she would have closed her damn eyes though...
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Old 2009-10-21, 14:30   Link #800
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his mouth is friggin open. She's all "O_O" and he's like "IMMA KISS YOU K"
wish she would have closed her damn eyes though...
They only kissed long enough for her to process what was happening. Then *poof* "This world's not so bad after all" and such. By the time she might have thought "I should kiss him back/I like this/he kissed me?!", it was already over.

I like to think that 'making out' requires more than the time required to realize it's happening.
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