AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Haruhi Suzumiya

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-10-25, 10:41   Link #901
Ricky Controversy
Frandle & Nightbag
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
See, I personally don't see the novels as really trying to ship any one thing over another. The general impression I've always taken away from them was that while his relationship with each girl is very different, he cares about each of them and is open to the idea of romance with each of them. In a situation like this, it's very easy to fall into the habit of reading your preferred ship back into everything that happened. It can be tricky because everyone has biases about what they think a good romance is, and each dynamic is entirely distinct from the next.

What boggles my mind is why people try to dismiss certain couplings just because the foundational elements that would come into play aren't what they have in mind, or worse, solely because it's not the coupling that first jumps to mind as desirable. Kyon's frustration at Haruhi's actions isn't a deal breaker, it's a part of the tension dynamic between them, where the push and pull are a roundabout way of them showing they care. This is important because Haruhi was previously used to be dismissed as the crazy girl. Kyon will get in the arena with her like she's another human being. Kyon and Yuki having an incredibly deep bond of trust being the core of their relationship doesn't preclude romance from emerging. In fact, romances that blossom from a bond of trust and understand first tend to be far more lasting and fruitful than ones that come initially out of attraction. Finally, Mikuru tends to be dismissed because she's very passive and is something of a moe blob, but we all know there's a more assertive person in there, and she really is a considerate, dutiful, kind girl. Her timidity clearly is in fact part of the draw to Kyon, who does seem to like feeling like 'the man' when he can.

So, ya know, regardless of our own preferences, Kyon has foundations laid for a romance with any of the three girls--and there are arguments that could be made that there's potential for Kyon x Tsuruya but I'd take another post to look into that. In different scenes, we see one more strongly than another, sure, but a large part of this is that this isn't a bloody harem series, so you won't be getting scenes of two or more 'candidates' vying for the protagonist's affections.
__________________
Ricky Controversy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-25, 11:43   Link #902
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Just to be clear, I don't think that LOVER actually did bury Kyon/Haruhi as a potential pairing; more like maybe that was the idea behind LOVER at the time.

It sounds as though Tanigawa may have changed his mind at some point.

I completely agree with Ricky on shippings, as it pertains to most of the Haruhi material at least, Novel 4 in particular.


As I write this, I'm about half-way through SMS, and Haruhi's growth as a character is really coming through here. She's shifting a bit from an almost villainous domineering character to a perpetually cheerful camaraderie-based character, with some genuine similarities to Kamina from Gurren Lagann.

I never really saw the basis to the Haruhi/Kamina comparisons based on the animated material alone, but with the post-Disappearance stories that I've read thus far... I'm seeing it a bit more.

So, even if Haruhi's pre-Disappearance personality was a deal-breaker for Kyon, the person she is growing into may be a different matter entirely.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-25, 16:17   Link #903
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kaisos' comments pertaining to Novel 7 has certainly piqued my interest. I hope to get to this novel later today or tomorrow, as I'm intrigued to see how this novel becomes a game-changer as it pertains to shippings.
Again, you have to read between the lines in that book, but I have said before that it pretty much kills the possibility of him ending up with Mikuru.

Like it was possible from the beginning... >_>
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-25, 17:20   Link #904
AmyElizzabeth
Moo
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Iowa
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to AmyElizzabeth
She' a time-traveller, she could be,like, 50.
Also, when she was an adult, shesaid "It's been awhile" which lead me to say ""
AmyElizzabeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-25, 17:44   Link #905
ijuinkun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Well, from the way that young-Mikuru acts, I'd say that she's either genuinely a teenager or she's a Hollywood-quality actress. Older Mikuru is not so certain--she appears and acts about ten years older than young-Mikuru, but future technology may allow her to have been "locked" at that apparent age and actually be older in subjective terms.

Last edited by ijuinkun; 2009-10-25 at 17:45. Reason: edited for spelling
ijuinkun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-25, 18:00   Link #906
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Considering that their technology appears to be biological in nature (they can interface with the nanotech of the TFEIs) I would not be surprised if they had solved aging at that point.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 01:37   Link #907
quigonkenny
WRYYYYY!!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Elkia
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
See, I personally don't see the novels as really trying to ship any one thing over another. The general impression I've always taken away from them was that while his relationship with each girl is very different, he cares about each of them and is open to the idea of romance with each of them. In a situation like this, it's very easy to fall into the habit of reading your preferred ship back into everything that happened. It can be tricky because everyone has biases about what they think a good romance is, and each dynamic is entirely distinct from the next.

What boggles my mind is why people try to dismiss certain couplings just because the foundational elements that would come into play aren't what they have in mind, or worse, solely because it's not the coupling that first jumps to mind as desirable. Kyon's frustration at Haruhi's actions isn't a deal breaker, it's a part of the tension dynamic between them, where the push and pull are a roundabout way of them showing they care. This is important because Haruhi was previously used to be dismissed as the crazy girl. Kyon will get in the arena with her like she's another human being. Kyon and Yuki having an incredibly deep bond of trust being the core of their relationship doesn't preclude romance from emerging. In fact, romances that blossom from a bond of trust and understand first tend to be far more lasting and fruitful than ones that come initially out of attraction. Finally, Mikuru tends to be dismissed because she's very passive and is something of a moe blob, but we all know there's a more assertive person in there, and she really is a considerate, dutiful, kind girl. Her timidity clearly is in fact part of the draw to Kyon, who does seem to like feeling like 'the man' when he can.

So, ya know, regardless of our own preferences, Kyon has foundations laid for a romance with any of the three girls--and there are arguments that could be made that there's potential for Kyon x Tsuruya but I'd take another post to look into that. In different scenes, we see one more strongly than another, sure, but a large part of this is that this isn't a bloody harem series, so you won't be getting scenes of two or more 'candidates' vying for the protagonist's affections.
Agreed. Good post. But let me expand a bit on that.

While I don't feel Tanigawa focuses on the romance of the story (certainly not to the extent that most shippers would prefer), he does leave hints regarding, and in some cases makes quite clear, the feelings that the primary girls have toward Kyon.

Yuki, for instance, is very obviously...attracted...to Kyon. Any assignation of feelings to her is touchy at best, but from the events of Disappearance in particular, and in other places as well (LOVER, Intrigues) it is quite obvious that she feels quite strongly for him (taking her demeanor into account).

Haruhi also harbors feelings for Kyon, at least of the crush variety, as shown by her constant ponytail teasings when she thinks he's not looking (or wants him to think she doesn't know he is looking), if nothing else.

Mikuru tends to keep things close to her (prodigious) chest, as is befitting of a time traveler, but she slips every once in a while (her initial reaction to Kyon after the Sleeping Beauty scene in Melancholy, most tellingly) in ways that hint she feels more strongly for him than his importance to her further temporal existence might suggest.

Kyon, on the other hand, aside from his general annoyance toward Haruhi, outright lust toward Mikuru (and occasionally Haruhi), and "onii-chan" protectiveness toward Mikuru and Yuki, is pretty tight-lipped about any actual emotional attraction to them. No mean feat when his POV is ours.
__________________
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 04:19   Link #908
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Kyon, on the other hand, aside from his general annoyance toward Haruhi, outright lust toward Mikuru (and occasionally Haruhi), and "onii-chan" protectiveness toward Mikuru and Yuki, is pretty tight-lipped about any actual emotional attraction to them. No mean feat when his POV is ours.
I tend to notice Kyon never talks about himself. Never really talks about himself. He'll talk about how much he sucks at school half the time, and over-inflate himself the other half, but he almost never talks about his feelings on anything or his personal history, unless it's immediately relevant.

Boy is a mystery in many ways.

(This is why a lot of people who read Haruhi don't seem to really understand it. They're not really reading Haruhi.)


By the way ...I really don't think Kyon finds Haruhi as annoying as he says he finds her. She's basically given him what he's always wanted, after all.

It's a very tsundere narration...
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 15:44   Link #909
TakariCritic
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
More of a very human narration. Keep in mind, even though it's Kyon, we're still dealing with a teenage boy, so many things of his nature are still unmatured. I agree that the romantic potential is high amoung all three females, I tend to focus on the endgame, where Mikuru is clearly out. This leaves Yuki and Haruhi for me, and my bias towards supporting Yuki has unfortuantly prevented me from fully appreciating Haruhi's own character development. As much as I may adore to ship, I must endevour to attempt to recognize all possibilities, as that will lead to a greater appreciation of the story.

After all, shipping derives from the connecction the audience feels to the character, and their desire for that character's happiness. That is why even though I'd very much like to see Yuki and Kyon together, I can still be quite content with them retaining their close friendship.

Although with the events of the Beta plotline in volume 10, we may see a loss and change of many relationships.
TakariCritic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 16:41   Link #910
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
More of a very human narration. Keep in mind, even though it's Kyon, we're still dealing with a teenage boy, so many things of his nature are still unmatured. I agree that the romantic potential is high amoung all three females, I tend to focus on the endgame, where Mikuru is clearly out. This leaves Yuki and Haruhi for me, and my bias towards supporting Yuki has unfortuantly prevented me from fully appreciating Haruhi's own character development. As much as I may adore to ship, I must endevour to attempt to recognize all possibilities, as that will lead to a greater appreciation of the story.

After all, shipping derives from the connecction the audience feels to the character, and their desire for that character's happiness. That is why even though I'd very much like to see Yuki and Kyon together, I can still be quite content with them retaining their close friendship.

Although with the events of the Beta plotline in volume 10, we may see a loss and change of many relationships.
What's funny is that even though Haruhi is my favorite character in the series, I'm still a mild KyonYuki shipper (I say 'mild' because I'm certainly prepared to change my mind if the novels convince me of a different pairing).

Meanwhile, Kogetsu is, IIRC, the complete opposite; a big Yuki fan that ships KyonHaruhi.

I guess that for both Kogetsu and I, we're not focused on "what would make my favorite character happiest?", but rather instead on "which pairing just resonates the best to me?"

For various reasons that I don't want to bog down this thread with, KyonYuki just appeals to me in many ways.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 16:53   Link #911
AmyElizzabeth
Moo
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Iowa
Age: 19
Send a message via MSN to AmyElizzabeth
I want Haruhi. If I don't get it, I will...Be okay with it. I don't think Mikuru' a possibilty, I think Yuki does have feelings for him, but not romantic ones.
AmyElizzabeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 20:00   Link #912
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
More of a very human narration. Keep in mind, even though it's Kyon, we're still dealing with a teenage boy, so many things of his nature are still unmatured.
Very true. I remember Tanigawa talking about how he intentionally writes characters that are emotionally immature because the story almost drives itself that way. Or something like that.

...I remember the phrase "emotional deniability" somewhere...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakariCritic View Post
Although with the events of the Beta plotline in volume 10, we may see a loss and change of many relationships.
Speaking of which...

Alternate universe stories are a haven for authors who want to change a lot of the plot and character interactions but don't really want to change the plot and character interactions.

Beta is going to lead to a horribly Bad End and it's going to be glorious.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 21:50   Link #913
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Haruhi also harbors feelings for Kyon, at least of the crush variety, as shown by her constant ponytail teasings when she thinks he's not looking (or wants him to think she doesn't know he is looking), if nothing else.
In this case, how much of it started from Haruhi's "crush" upon John Smith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Meanwhile, Kogetsu is, IIRC, the complete opposite; a big Yuki fan that ships KyonHaruhi.
That's simple enough to explain: Kogetsu just wants Yuki all to himself!
__________________



CrowKenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 23:19   Link #914
Kogetsu Shirogane
Crackshipper
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mitakihara
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
That's simple enough to explain: Kogetsu just wants Yuki all to himself!
I don't quite recall ever stating I was interested in her in that way.
__________________
Kyouko Sakura and Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... well at least it's consistent...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 23:27   Link #915
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
I don't quite recall ever stating I was interested in her in that way.
Well, you just want Kyon out of the way, yes?
__________________



CrowKenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-26, 23:34   Link #916
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Well, you just want Kyon out of the way, yes?
I think that it's fair to say that Kogetsu doesn't want to share Yuki...
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-27, 02:29   Link #917
quigonkenny
WRYYYYY!!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Elkia
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Very true. I remember Tanigawa talking about how he intentionally writes characters that are emotionally immature because the story almost drives itself that way. Or something like that.
I don't think it's so much that as he just writes Kyon like a normal guy. Hate to break it to all the ladies out there (both of you) but most the time a guy's internal monologue really is along the lines of "This tea tastes good, damn Mikuru's hot, homophobic overreaction to Itsuki, snark, pop culture reference, repeat as necessary." Not really all that difficult to read. It's more his reactions to specific events (which even then are usually some kind of variation on the items above) that drive his involvement in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Speaking of which...

Alternate universe stories are a haven for authors who want to change a lot of the plot and character interactions but don't really want to change the plot and character interactions.

Beta is going to lead to a horribly Bad End and it's going to be glorious.
I know to what you are referring, and I think I've created a monster... I've also decided over the last couple of weeks that the best part (should my old Volume 10 prediction actually be correct as written, of course) will be afterwards, when the massive fansquee from the HaruKyon shippers turns to rivers of emo tears when they realize not only that their magical moment will have effectively never happened, but it may never happen in the future. ^_^

I can just see Tanigawa surfing an anime forum, waving his hands about and yelling, "Mwa-ha-ha-ha-haaa...! Dance! Dance, my puppets!"
__________________
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-27, 02:44   Link #918
dnab
anime berkeley
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
I'm a Yuki shipper and proud. But this post isn't about her.

First of all, on the delay of vol.10, I still don't think it was entirely up to the author. Serial writing in Japan (manga and novels alike) is a team effort of the artist, marketing/public, and the publishing/money. Quite often the market/readers prefers a certain development and the artists are obliged to deliver. We can only speculate that perhaps there was a creative power struggle; vol.10 could be the event horizon where the plot crosses and cannot turn back.

How twisted can vol.10 be? Well the TV show Fringe is eerily reflective of Haruhi-verse's metaphysics on multiple dimensions. A significant event (phone call during Kyon's bath) split the reality into two lines, where one intervened by a slider heads to [blah] while the other one seemingly heading into [holy shit]. Of course the [holy shit] could burn itself out and the remaining line becomes canon, but that's the easy way out. Both realities possess powerful beings who are certainly capable of crossing and interacting with the other side, or that alpha Kyon could be doing a Immelmann reverse half cuban eight time-loop while the beta Kyon threads the needle with his world line with triple epilogues. We May Not Understand, but I'm having a rush just thinking about it. Tani/Kadokawa had their chances 3 years ago to give us something passable. Now anything short of a full LSD trip will not be acceptable.
dnab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-27, 02:58   Link #919
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I don't think it's so much that as he just writes Kyon like a normal guy. Hate to break it to all the ladies out there (both of you) but most the time a guy's internal monologue really is along the lines of "This tea tastes good, damn Mikuru's hot, homophobic overreaction to Itsuki, snark, pop culture reference, repeat as necessary." Not really all that difficult to read. It's more his reactions to specific events (which even then are usually some kind of variation on the items above) that drive his involvement in the story.
I'd like to give Tanigawa (and Kyon) a little more credit than that.

"Volume 4".

Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I know to what you are referring, and I think I've created a monster... I've also decided over the last couple of weeks that the best part (should my old Volume 10 prediction actually be correct as written, of course) will be afterwards, when the massive fansquee from the HaruKyon shippers turns to rivers of emo tears when they realize not only that their magical moment will have effectively never happened, but it may never happen in the future. ^_^
At least it was written about and would prove once and for all that Kyon has something for Haruhi.

And we'd get a new brigade member. That's squee enough for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnab View Post
Now anything short of a full LSD trip will not be acceptable.
I'd normally advocate this kind of thing, due to my love of Eva, but I don't think it really has a place in Haruhi, except for perhaps in the Betaverse, of course...

And I don't think the Alphaverse is very [blah]... it has the slider! Come on man, the slider. The running joke of the series finally shows up.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-27, 09:42   Link #920
TakariCritic
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I don't think the Alphaverse is very [blah]... it has the slider! Come on man, the slider. The running joke of the series finally shows up.
About Slider-tan: Seriously, another girl? "I just wanted to hear sempai's voice..." I was hoping there'd be at least one member of the SOS Brigade that wasn't romantically interested in Kyon. And with the introduction of Tachibana, Sasaki, and Kuyoh... there are just too many females in this story, there needs to be more male influence in Kyon's life. Either that, or start giving poor Kunikida more page-time.
TakariCritic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.